Random dungeon's roles.

Gorgoneus

Queued random dungeon a lot of times today and 9 times of 10 I got tanks and healers who actually have no any tanking and healing skills and gear, but they still can queue as tanks and healers (I dont speak about DD with no damage - this is normal). Should I say we have no bosses killed?
I know this is hard to make but please make some sort of role check for people, to prevent situations like these. Or just make a new difficulty with no tanks or healers requaired if you want anybody come to random dungeon group like many MMO did.

VoidBlue

If it was normal mode random non dlc, there isn't really a need for tanks or healer if you have a self heal.

LordGavus

VoidBlue wrote: »

If it was normal mode random non dlc, there isn't really a need for tanks or healer if you have a self heal.

Agreed.
With a self heal you can solo most non dlc normal dungeons.

Gorgoneus wrote: »

Or just make a new difficulty with no tanks or healers requaired if you want anybody come to random dungeon group like many MMO did.

Really when you're vet level (or even just experienced) normal dungeons are this. I don't think another difficulty level is required.

I do agree that a role check or dungeon tutorial explaining the roles would be useful.

idk

Having the GF role check is limiting and should not be added.

Why should I have to have healing or tanking items and gear actually slotted, same with tanking, to be able to queue when I can just as easily be running around doing quests as dps while waiting?

No, please no.

disintegr8

I agree and understand that there is little need for true tanks or healers in base game normal dungeons - for reasonably experienced players. This does not apply for any level player entering a dungeon.

If you get 4 level 12 players on their first ever run of Spindleglutch and they do not have at least a part time healer or a tank, they are going to have a hard time of it. In this case, and vet dungeons, I would like to see the dungeon finder doing some basic checks on a character to ensure they are queuing correctly.

Personally I would like to see the dungeons modified so that you cannot simply steamroll your way through them with DPS and choosing to run a dungeon without a tank or healer becomes harder. I know Vet dungeons are different but if the roles are not needed in normal dungeons, where are people going to learn to play these roles?

Duragon_Darko

I do not agree with a role check, as you should be able to do what you want until you que up. That being said, I do not agree with queing up as a healer or tank, only to get a group faster and try and dps your way through a dungeon. If you que as a tank or healer, you should be a tank or healer. Mind you, at vet level in a normal dungeon, a hybrid tank/dps or healer/dps is still acceptable, so long as you are acting as the job you qued up for. Even as a tank at 465, normal CoA II is still a pain and I expect the healer to heal me on that last boss fight in select situations. Just saying.

LordGavus

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Having the GF role check is limiting and should not be added.

Why should I have to have healing or tanking items and gear actually slotted, same with tanking, to be able to queue when I can just as easily be running around doing quests as dps while waiting?

No, please no.

Ah yeah, I didn't think of that. In that case role check would be terrible.

I still think there should be some sort of tutorial for new players when entering their first dungeon to explain the roles.

theher0not

One thing that I am bothered by a lot is when I que as tank and I get a healer or DPS who takes my role.

Sure, we don't need a tank for normal but I am playing it to learn how to play tank in this game and that is impossible with 1 or 2 other guys taunting and pulling everything.

LordGavus

theher0not wrote: »

One thing that I am bothered by a lot is when I que as tank and I get a healer or DPS who takes my role.

Sure, we don't need a tank for normal but I am playing it to learn how to play tank in this game and that is impossible with 1 or 2 other guys taunting and pulling everything.

Yeah I guess that's the other side of it. Dps that don't understand taunts can quickly make a mess of things. I think this comes back to there not being any sort of dungeon role tutorial, some new players are simply not aware.

I've run into a few dps using a restro staff when I'm the healer too. Less of an issue than over taunting but is mostly unnecessary and a loss of dps.

NewBlacksmurf

It's not hard to make a role check.

ZOS hard difficulties developing things

The role check or what I'd call a role requirement would simply unlock based on skills on the bar when entering a que

Some say it's problematic....I disagree as ppl swap skills all the time.

Danikat

Fun fact: I've been playing a variety of RPGs since about 1994. I'd never heard of the 'holy trinity' until 2011 and was only vaguely aware of roles and the other terminology and never really saw the point of taunt skills. If someone had asked me before then what role each character in my party filled I wouldn't have known they meant and certainly wouldn't have answered with 'tank' 'healer' or 'DPS'. I understood the general idea in a vague way - that a fighter won't know any healing skills but a priest will, a wizard should stay back because they can't take much damage, and so on. But I always made hybrid builds and didn't tend to bother with things like taunts. And maybe surprisingly I was able to complete most games on at least medium difficulty without too much trouble.

Point is it's not just ESO that doesn't teach players about roles and group dynamics. I still haven't ever found a game that does, although Dragon Age Inquisition comes close by making character design so restrictive you can't really avoid sticking to a specific role and you will need all 3 in a party to get anywhere. (It was actually promotion for Guild Wars 2 where they talked about NOT using the trinity and allowing any class to fill any role that made me realise how all those other games were 'supposed to' work.)

In retrospect I agree it would be helpful if this game, or any game, made that clearer. I still like my hybrid builds and continue to use them (don't worry, not in vet dungeons in ESO) but it's definitely helpful to understand how the developers expect the mechanics to work. I think it even helps when I want to ignore or defy them.

A tutorial dungeon where your build is temporarily changed to a demo one suited to a specific role and you're shown things like how taunts work, how to know when your party needs healing and that your job is to keep them alive, not to kill the boss yourself or how to do damage while avoiding aggro would be a great way to do it. (I imagine it being a solo instance with NPC party members and fairly heavily scripted fights, like the actual tutorial.)

More generally I think it would be helpful if the group finder let you choose a group instead of simply dumping you into whichever one has space. If I want to take my level 27 weird DPS/healer hybrid through a dungeon for the first time to experience the story and explore it I don't want to group with high level players looking for a quick clear any more than they want me there. We should be able to choose which group to join and/or which players to allow into our group.

At the moment the only way to do that is to form a group manually using map chat or guild chat, but that restricts you to just the people on your copy of the map or in your build, whereas group finder pulls from everyone who is interested in that dungeon at that time.

NewBlacksmurf

Danikat wrote: »

Fun fact: I've been playing a variety of RPGs since about 1994. I'd never heard of the 'holy trinity' until 2011 and was only vaguely aware of roles and the other terminology and never really saw the point of taunt skills. If someone had asked me before then what role each character in my party filled I wouldn't have known they meant and certainly wouldn't have answered with 'tank' 'healer' or 'DPS'. I understood the general idea in a vague way - that a fighter won't know any healing skills but a priest will, a wizard should stay back because they can't take much damage, and so on. But I always made hybrid builds and didn't tend to bother with things like taunts. And maybe surprisingly I was able to complete most games on at least medium difficulty without too much trouble.

Point is it's not just ESO that doesn't teach players about roles and group dynamics. I still haven't ever found a game that does, although Dragon Age Inquisition comes close by making character design so restrictive you can't really avoid sticking to a specific role and you will need all 3 in a party to get anywhere. (It was actually promotion for Guild Wars 2 where they talked about NOT using the trinity and allowing any class to fill any role that made me realise how all those other games were 'supposed to' work.)

In retrospect I agree it would be helpful if this game, or any game, made that clearer. I still like my hybrid builds and continue to use them (don't worry, not in vet dungeons in ESO) but it's definitely helpful to understand how the developers expect the mechanics to work. I think it even helps when I want to ignore or defy them.

A tutorial dungeon where your build is temporarily changed to a demo one suited to a specific role and you're shown things like how taunts work, how to know when your party needs healing and that your job is to keep them alive, not to kill the boss yourself or how to do damage while avoiding aggro would be a great way to do it. (I imagine it being a solo instance with NPC party members and fairly heavily scripted fights, like the actual tutorial.)

More generally I think it would be helpful if the group finder let you choose a group instead of simply dumping you into whichever one has space. If I want to take my level 27 weird DPS/healer hybrid through a dungeon for the first time to experience the story and explore it I don't want to group with high level players looking for a quick clear any more than they want me there. We should be able to choose which group to join and/or which players to allow into our group.

At the moment the only way to do that is to form a group manually using map chat or guild chat, but that restricts you to just the people on your copy of the map or in your build, whereas group finder pulls from everyone who is interested in that dungeon at that time.

@Danikat

If you read about any mmorpg since the 1990's ALL have laid out the roles. Trinity or not, each game clearly has designed roles.

In this game, the same applies
It's not permissible to say, no one told me or made a tutorial so....

Danikat

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Fun fact: I've been playing a variety of RPGs since about 1994. I'd never heard of the 'holy trinity' until 2011 and was only vaguely aware of roles and the other terminology and never really saw the point of taunt skills. If someone had asked me before then what role each character in my party filled I wouldn't have known they meant and certainly wouldn't have answered with 'tank' 'healer' or 'DPS'. I understood the general idea in a vague way - that a fighter won't know any healing skills but a priest will, a wizard should stay back because they can't take much damage, and so on. But I always made hybrid builds and didn't tend to bother with things like taunts. And maybe surprisingly I was able to complete most games on at least medium difficulty without too much trouble.

Point is it's not just ESO that doesn't teach players about roles and group dynamics. I still haven't ever found a game that does, although Dragon Age Inquisition comes close by making character design so restrictive you can't really avoid sticking to a specific role and you will need all 3 in a party to get anywhere. (It was actually promotion for Guild Wars 2 where they talked about NOT using the trinity and allowing any class to fill any role that made me realise how all those other games were 'supposed to' work.)

In retrospect I agree it would be helpful if this game, or any game, made that clearer. I still like my hybrid builds and continue to use them (don't worry, not in vet dungeons in ESO) but it's definitely helpful to understand how the developers expect the mechanics to work. I think it even helps when I want to ignore or defy them.

A tutorial dungeon where your build is temporarily changed to a demo one suited to a specific role and you're shown things like how taunts work, how to know when your party needs healing and that your job is to keep them alive, not to kill the boss yourself or how to do damage while avoiding aggro would be a great way to do it. (I imagine it being a solo instance with NPC party members and fairly heavily scripted fights, like the actual tutorial.)

More generally I think it would be helpful if the group finder let you choose a group instead of simply dumping you into whichever one has space. If I want to take my level 27 weird DPS/healer hybrid through a dungeon for the first time to experience the story and explore it I don't want to group with high level players looking for a quick clear any more than they want me there. We should be able to choose which group to join and/or which players to allow into our group.

At the moment the only way to do that is to form a group manually using map chat or guild chat, but that restricts you to just the people on your copy of the map or in your build, whereas group finder pulls from everyone who is interested in that dungeon at that time.

@Danikat

If you read about any mmorpg since the 1990's ALL have laid out the roles. Trinity or not, each game clearly has designed roles.

In this game, the same applies
It's not permissible to say, no one told me or made a tutorial so....

And that's the thing, although I played a lot of them I didn't tend to spend much time reading material outside of the game about how to play.

As far as I was concerned I already knew how to play - I was winning the fights, completing quests and so on so I didn't feel like I needed to look up instructions on how to make a build and because I didn't subscribe to gaming magazines or whatever I didn't encounter it that way either. If I did look up information on a game it was where to go to complete a specific quest I'd been stuck on for ages.

I suspect a lot of people playing ESO are in exactly the same situation now. They spend their free time playing ESO, not reading about how to play ESO so because this information is only available outside of the game they don't encounter it.

Sure someone in one of those games could have told me, but the only role related advice I remember receiving was to never run ahead of the 'leader' (aka tank) and never attack before he does. Presumably because, just like in ESO, the players who knew these things expected everyone else to know too, without ever being told.

I'm not saying it was fine that I didn't know or players in ESO shouldn't be expected to know - just that I can understand why they don't know and the problem isn't going to magically fix itself by complaining that they should know things they may never even have thought about. It's only going to be fixed by putting the information in a place they will find it.

tunepunk

I think it would be easier to redesign the dungeons and boss encounters so that roles becomes obsolete.

Wouldn't it be easier if everyone had decent self heals/survivability instead, or damage components to healing morphs, and if you die, it's probably because you didn't play well, (stepping in red circles, not blocking etc) not because you didn't play your "role", or someone in your group didn't play their "role" well.

I solo normal pledges all the time, because my current build is based on just simple decent dps output and survivability.

Maybe that's just my opinion, but I think harder content should be playable too, regardless of roles, as long as everyone can self sustain, and have fun together.

akl77

I suggest if I queue in both tank and healer role on, the other 3 slots will be filled with dps automatically. Cos my build is tank and heal and don't need another role doing the same.

SolarCat02

I don't agree with solo queuing as roles you can't fulfill, especially since you don't know who will be in your group, and whether or not they will need that role.

That said, I do understand why people do it. Queuing as Damage takes forever. I usually play healer, and recently leveled a tank, and random dungeon finder has always been fun for me.

Last night I queued my level 18 stamina Dragonknight for a random normal dungeon and started in on finishing the Prophet's questline to kill time. I was at the quest to get all the Alliance leaders to agree on that neutral island.

Three hours later I logged out of my level 22 stamina Dragonknight, right before the war council to travel into the northern half of Coldharbor, and went to bed. The same queue was running the whole time.

I don't really know how to fix this. I just know it's a problem.
The quests encourage you to make a damage dealer.
The dungeons are always short on tanks or healers.
The endgame Trials are always short on damage dealers again.
And I really love healing.

disintegr8

The long wait times for DPS is indeed a big problem but anyone queuing for another role in dungeon finder to speed up getting into a group is doing the wrong thing. There are a lot of DPS builds out there that rely on receiving heals and someone else taking aggro.

People build DPS because that is the most fun and fastest way to get through the game. I would like to see the game change so that tanks and healers have a much bigger role in general content rather than just in end game trials and harder vet dungeons.

I completed Cadwels silver and gold and slogged it all the way to Vet16 on a Stamina DK tank using sword and board and a bow. I am sure my Templar healer could do the same thing without switching out to pure DPS. These builds are more than capable of running through the games content but it is just easier/quicker with DPS.

Until ZOS can fix it, the only other advice I can offer to speed up DPS queue times is for people to role a tank instead of complaining about the wait times for your DPS characters. Tanks are the easiest role to play in my opinion (I have 2) and if you want to farm for helms or keys, there is no better role to do it with - guaranteed quick groups every time.

If you are not prepared to role a tank (or healer) to help fill up groups, why should anyone else?

ZOS_JohanaB

We've moved this thread to Dungeons, Trials & Arenas

SickDuck

disintegr8 wrote: »

I agree and understand that there is little need for true tanks or healers in base game normal dungeons - for reasonably experienced players. This does not apply for any level player entering a dungeon.

If you get 4 level 12 players on their first ever run of Spindleglutch and they do not have at least a part time healer or a tank, they are going to have a hard time of it. In this case, and vet dungeons, I would like to see the dungeon finder doing some basic checks on a character to ensure they are queuing correctly.

Personally I would like to see the dungeons modified so that you cannot simply steamroll your way through them with DPS and choosing to run a dungeon without a tank or healer becomes harder. I know Vet dungeons are different but if the roles are not needed in normal dungeons, where are people going to learn to play these roles?

All the above. Experienced players won't need a tank because they can jump in. Full dd setup + taunt = tank for any normal run as long as someone experienced enough. Self heals won't make you a healer though unless all the others can survive on their own - which you cannot know when queuing alone.

People should only take up roles they can fulfil upin request. Otherwise you're just a selfish a-hole who went fake tanking to jump the queue while dds waiting forever have to do the job instead.

Maybe there could be options to join in other group setup than 2-1-1 so people who can handle 4 random dd runs could opt in for one. But until that when someone gives the good old "not a tank, this one does not need one" excuse, just use the vote button to prove 'em right.

AlnilamE

The problem is that if you are queuing as a role that's not DPS, you may not have the gear/skills for that role active while you are waiting for your group to form.

When my Templar isn't tanking, she runs around in light armor with a destroy and resto staff. In heavy armor she hits like a wet noodle and that slows her down when questing. As soon as she pops into the dungeon, she changes into her tanking gear and puts on her tanking skills and gets on with it.

So it may work to check that someone has certain skills unlocked (ie, a taunt or a pure healing skill), but if you are checking for active skills or gear, then you are going to encounter issues.

Syrani

For those of you asking for a "role tutorial" - I agree with you completely. It's something that should be in the game. However, MOST of the people queuing as tank/healer who aren't actually there to perform those roles are not doing it because they didn't know any better. They are doing it to jump the line, plain and simple. They know full well what they are doing when they do this.

It's perfectly fine to form your own group and go in with 4 DDs who agreed to it, but if you join group finder as a tank/healer with no intention of tanking or healing, in my opinion, you should be kicked. It doesn't matter that the dungeon can be done with 4 DDs or solo or whatever, the point is that it is done to CHEAT the system, and I can't abide cheaters.

unchainedzulu

Syrani wrote: »

For those of you asking for a "role tutorial" - I agree with you completely. It's something that should be in the game.

me too.

we have a tutorial when we first create a character, that we can skip (not sure if you can skip on the first character, or only on subsequent ones)

we have a pop up when we want to deconstruct or create armour.

we have a tutorial when we want to sign up for crafting writs.

it doesn't seem unmanageable to create a a pop up explaining roles and what they are used for when you first select the option.
and it doesn't seem unmanageable to create a tutorial to unlock the ability to queue for a dungeon as a dps in the first instance, and then again as a tank and again as a healer. especially with houses coming out and training skeletons in them (although, there would have to be someone in the npc world to go talk to as well, for those that don't have a house or guild house)

i have noticed the slottable skill abilities have icons that say 'tank' and 'healer' on them. so i presume the game just needs to be able to link all these pieces together and create a gateway before queuing is available.

i don't think dungeons need to be blocked from fully/self-made groups like this though, only the Dungeon Finder option.

Lukums1

I'll queue as a Sorc Stam TANK/DPS.

When I know the below to be true:

I know I won't die.
The vet Dungeon DOESN'T have any 1 shot mechanics which I can't mitigate as a tank/dps.
That I can hold aggro against all trash mobs successfully.

I honestly think if you can't say the above when dps/tanking you shouldn't be queued as a tank...

It's all just common sense really... and experience I suppose.

tunepunk

Last night we got a healer with a bow, that didn't have any healing skills at all. We all did fine without a healer (except him) because everyone else had pretty good self sustain. To punish him for faking his role, we charged through the mobs leaving him behind to deal with it the trash mobs by himself, which killed him pretty fast, several times. While we laughed and said just heal with your bow.

Anyway...

Roles are a bit of a mess. Who runs around with their healing/tank build doing quests and PvE content? i think the reason not many people play those roles is because they are not very useful in normal questing PvE scenario, and who want's to bother to respec and toss on new gear/skills and such at every dungeon entrance?

Myself, I always keep my solo skills on Bar 1, and Dungeon DPS & support skills on bar 2. Let's say you usually play a Mag DPS, why not always keep healing skills on your second bar? First bar, DPS, self sustain for solo content. 2nd bar. Group support/healing skills. If everyone just did like that it would be much more easy. As a stamina build I wouldn't mind doing a bit of healing if there were some decent stamina based heals, so i could just take that role when switching bar.

Problem comes to Tank though. You cant really take a Stamina build and become a great tank only by switching to 1HS? You pretty much have to respec your points to more health.They should buff stamina based tanking abilities, so that Higher Stamina can make up for the lack of health, and you could still prevail as a tank, so that you can keep you tanking skills on the Back bar even if you're specced Stamina. OR, make a new skill line where Health is the modifier for the skills, so that a character specced for high health tanking can do decent amount of damage in regular PvE questing scenario.

Lashiing

i 4 dps all my pledges hm

pod88kk

Yeah 4 dps who know what they're doing is all you need, maybe a tank & 3 dps for some of the harder ones but 4 dps is more challenging & more fun. The most challenging thing I've done in a while was VDSA with 4 dps