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Several sets need to be banned from PvP.
JDar
✭✭✭✭✭
My subject says it all.
Zenimax Online needs to swallow their pride and admit they cannot balance a game like this that includes both PvE and PvP content.
They have already admitted as such with Battle Spirit that halves damage and healing done. The sets and rules they created for PvE players don't work for PvP players.
I imagine that Matt Firor and his top developmental think tank crew imagine themselves to be master game designers (which I think they are), but part of being masters is admitting when they face an insurmountable challenge.
They want to believe very badly that they are such great game system designers that they don't need bandaids to address certain problems, like that game mechanics and sets designed to help PvE'ers have disastrous results for hardcore PvP'ers. Certain sets and abilities are making the game unfun.
This is the goal of any architect and engineer: simple, elegant solutions and design. That is the ideal, but one need not hold to it religiously. We can still respect the work that ZoS has done in designing a fun game, even if they break their own design principles and just admit it:
Certain sets and abilities should be excluded from PvP.
Zos wants PvP'ers to be happy, I believe this. But PvE is overwhelmingly who pays the bills for them. So every decision they make is for PvE'ers. PvE'ers love the game the way it is! This has clearly come at the expense of PvP'ers.
Eye of the Storm, Monster Sets, Viper? These are all fantastic sets and/or abilities that should be available to PvE players skilled enough to earn them (there are many others too). But just because you can defeat a computer script does not give you the right to use these overpowered abilities against real human players. It's patently unfair.
Us who love fighting against humans, in teams, with complex social interactions? We deserve a drastic change in vision. This is why:
I propose that ZoS set a new policy of making certain sets and abilities unusable in Cyrodiil in order to make their job easier and make PvP sane again.
It is ok ZoS. We will still love the game you made for us. You just need to admit that you were wrong. PvE and PvP are two different games. Set them apart. Ban overpowerful damage sets, and consider making PvP only sets as well.
Edited for clarity
Edited by JDar on January 2, 2017 7:13AM Zenimax Online needs to swallow their pride and admit they cannot balance a game like this that includes both PvE and PvP content.
They have already admitted as such with Battle Spirit that halves damage and healing done. The sets and rules they created for PvE players don't work for PvP players.
I imagine that Matt Firor and his top developmental think tank crew imagine themselves to be master game designers (which I think they are), but part of being masters is admitting when they face an insurmountable challenge.
They want to believe very badly that they are such great game system designers that they don't need bandaids to address certain problems, like that game mechanics and sets designed to help PvE'ers have disastrous results for hardcore PvP'ers. Certain sets and abilities are making the game unfun.
This is the goal of any architect and engineer: simple, elegant solutions and design. That is the ideal, but one need not hold to it religiously. We can still respect the work that ZoS has done in designing a fun game, even if they break their own design principles and just admit it:
Certain sets and abilities should be excluded from PvP.
Zos wants PvP'ers to be happy, I believe this. But PvE is overwhelmingly who pays the bills for them. So every decision they make is for PvE'ers. PvE'ers love the game the way it is! This has clearly come at the expense of PvP'ers.
Eye of the Storm, Monster Sets, Viper? These are all fantastic sets and/or abilities that should be available to PvE players skilled enough to earn them (there are many others too). But just because you can defeat a computer script does not give you the right to use these overpowered abilities against real human players. It's patently unfair.
Us who love fighting against humans, in teams, with complex social interactions? We deserve a drastic change in vision. This is why:
I propose that ZoS set a new policy of making certain sets and abilities unusable in Cyrodiil in order to make their job easier and make PvP sane again.
It is ok ZoS. We will still love the game you made for us. You just need to admit that you were wrong. PvE and PvP are two different games. Set them apart. Ban overpowerful damage sets, and consider making PvP only sets as well.
Edited for clarity
15
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Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Ban all armor, ban all abilities, ban passives, ban grouping, ban level differences. Ban everything and then give me one command to declare myself the winner every time. You know what, never mind, it is done... I win ESO.Edited by Bryanonymous on January 2, 2017 7:38AM10
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Rilmarshim✭✭✭Hold your sarcasm, he is right. Some skills already have different behavior in pvp and pve and this is good idea. For example taunting in pvp? Seriously?8
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Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭First off, you will have to convince ZOS to change their overall balance mentality. A tall order for sure but with the recent "sneak peak"[sic] to upcoming changes, it seems that ZOS is even willing to touch AOE caps, which is their holy institution. Which means that overwhelming popular opinion does have an effect on them - even if it takes 2 years.
Anyway ZOS's overall balance mentality is that PvP and PvE must "feel the same" and they are reluctant to balance separately. Voicing your oppinion in this poll will help. If we can show them major popular support for individual balance, perhaps they will listen in a few years.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/310828/should-zos-balance-pve-and-pvp-separately/p12 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's definitely something worth considering. The whole issue of proc sets would be mostly solved if Red Mountain, Viper, and Widowmaker just disappeared from Cyrodiil over night.ＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/173 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would enjoy a crafted armor/weapon only campaign.
I think players with experience playing PVP in other games might see PVP development as haphazard, but I think the crazy sets we've seen introduced over the last year serve a purpose: to make Cyrodiil more accessible by lowering the skill bar.5 -
kevlarto_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree OP, but don't have much faith in zos doing anything much these days /sigh2 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Proccsets has no place in pvp tho, just saying, and its true. Unless we all wanna sit around a campfire throwing dice at whos gonna win the next fight, because we aint far from that now.
PC EU
PvP only3 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭My subject says it all.
Zenimax Online needs to swallow their pride and admit they cannot balance a game like this that includes both PvE and PvP content.
They have already admitted as such with Battle Spirit that halves damage and healing done. The sets and rules they created for PvE players don't work for PvP players.
I imagine that Matt Firor and his top developmental think tank crew imagine themselves to be master game designers (which I think they are), but part of being masters is admitting when they face an insurmountable challenge.
They want to believe very badly that they are such great game system designers that they don't need bandaids to address certain problems, like that game mechanics and sets designed to help PvE'ers have disastrous results for hardcore PvP'ers. Certain sets and abilities are making the game unfun.
This is the goal of any architect and engineer: simple, elegant solutions and design. That is the ideal, but one need not hold to it religiously. We can still respect the work that ZoS has done in designing a fun game, even if they break their own design principles and just admit it:
Certain sets and abilities should be excluded from PvP.
Zos wants PvP'ers to be happy, I believe this. But PvE is overwhelmingly who pays the bills for them. So every decision they make is for PvE'ers. PvE'ers love the game the way it is! This has clearly come at the expense of PvP'ers.
Eye of the Storm, Monster Sets, Viper? These are all fantastic sets and/or abilities that should be available to PvE players skilled enough to earn them (there are many others too). But just because you can defeat a computer script does not give you the right to use these overpowered abilities against real human players. It's patently unfair.
Us who love fighting against humans, in teams, with complex social interactions? We deserve a drastic change in vision. This is why:
I propose that ZoS set a new policy of making certain sets and abilities unusable in Cyrodiil in order to make their job easier and make PvP sane again.
It is ok ZoS. We will still love the game you made for us. You just need to admit that you were wrong. PvE and PvP are two different games. Set them apart. Ban overpowerful damage sets, and consider making PvP only sets as well.
Edited for clarity
Honestly if this is how you feel. You can do want I did and still am doing and take your PvPing over to a actually dedicated PvP game. One that have their bills paid by sponsors and PvPers and not PvEers or RPers.
To me ESO is just a multi player PvE game unless i want to go dueling players every so now and then. ESO is love ESO is life, ESO is nothing PvP-like.
Ok I'm done.2 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have a better idea.
1. Wait for the U13 PTS patch notes releasing TOMORROW (-_-) before starting your QQ thread.
2. Push for skills/sets to work like Ambush and Negate Magic already do - different effects depending on whether you inflict your effects on an NPC or a player.
This is the rational way to go about it.
Edited by Vaoh on January 3, 2017 1:30AM5 -
JDar✭✭✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »My subject says it all.
Zenimax Online needs to swallow their pride and admit they cannot balance a game like this that includes both PvE and PvP content.
They have already admitted as such with Battle Spirit that halves damage and healing done. The sets and rules they created for PvE players don't work for PvP players.
I imagine that Matt Firor and his top developmental think tank crew imagine themselves to be master game designers (which I think they are), but part of being masters is admitting when they face an insurmountable challenge.
They want to believe very badly that they are such great game system designers that they don't need bandaids to address certain problems, like that game mechanics and sets designed to help PvE'ers have disastrous results for hardcore PvP'ers. Certain sets and abilities are making the game unfun.
This is the goal of any architect and engineer: simple, elegant solutions and design. That is the ideal, but one need not hold to it religiously. We can still respect the work that ZoS has done in designing a fun game, even if they break their own design principles and just admit it:
Certain sets and abilities should be excluded from PvP.
Zos wants PvP'ers to be happy, I believe this. But PvE is overwhelmingly who pays the bills for them. So every decision they make is for PvE'ers. PvE'ers love the game the way it is! This has clearly come at the expense of PvP'ers.
Eye of the Storm, Monster Sets, Viper? These are all fantastic sets and/or abilities that should be available to PvE players skilled enough to earn them (there are many others too). But just because you can defeat a computer script does not give you the right to use these overpowered abilities against real human players. It's patently unfair.
Us who love fighting against humans, in teams, with complex social interactions? We deserve a drastic change in vision. This is why:
I propose that ZoS set a new policy of making certain sets and abilities unusable in Cyrodiil in order to make their job easier and make PvP sane again.
It is ok ZoS. We will still love the game you made for us. You just need to admit that you were wrong. PvE and PvP are two different games. Set them apart. Ban overpowerful damage sets, and consider making PvP only sets as well.
Edited for clarity
Honestly if this is how you feel. You can do want I did and still am doing and take your PvPing over to a actually dedicated PvP game. One that have their bills paid by sponsors and PvPers and not PvEers or RPers.
To me ESO is just a multi player PvE game unless i want to go dueling players every so now and then. ESO is love ESO is life, ESO is nothing PvP-like.
Ok I'm done.
I already play an excellent dedicated PvP game, and I have spent far too much on FIFA packs as it is.1 -
JDar✭✭✭✭✭I have a better idea.
1. Wait for the U13 PTS patch notes releasing TOMORROW (-_-) before starting your QQ thread.
2. Push for skills/sets to work like Ambush and Negate Magic already do - different effects depending on whether you inflict your effects on an NPC or a player.
This is the rational way to go about it.
1. QQ? OK lol let's see if tomorrow's patch notes make the kind of sense I just did. Then I will come back and Awesome your post.
2. You have a good point too, and what I am saying complements it. They need to start treating PvE and PvP as two different animals. That's very similar to what I suggested, so in essence we basically agree.
Let's take Viper for instance. How do you make that set work against NPC's and bosses while not working against players? Should it not work against players at all, or does it just need to be tuned down? They have already halved damage and healing in Cyrodiil. Maybe they should just turn up Battle Spirit from 50% to 55%. And then when the next round of ridiculous sets come out, turn it up to 60%!
That is one way to go. I think that considering PvP as "Tournament Play" as in the sense of MTG, where you only get one Black Lotus in your deck, makes more sense than trusting ZoS to find the magic number: the percentage of damage that gets done and can be mitigated.
But like I said we basically agree. I don't get paid to do this, this is just my idea so don't b* at me if you think I'm QQ'ing, this was supposed to be a productive discussion.0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »It's definitely something worth considering. The whole issue of proc sets would be mostly solved if Red Mountain, Viper, and Widowmaker just disappeared from Cyrodiil over night.
1 -
JDar✭✭✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »
Honestly if this is how you feel. You can do want I did and still am doing and take your PvPing over to a actually dedicated PvP game. One that have their bills paid by sponsors and PvPers and not PvEers or RPers.
To me ESO is just a multi player PvE game unless i want to go dueling players every so now and then. ESO is love ESO is life, ESO is nothing PvP-like.
Ok I'm done.
I don't agree with that at all. I expect a full premium experience from a game that uses the ouroboros logo prominently in its graphics as a symbol of ZoS' commitment to providing high quality PvP and charging premium prices for its digital content.
Otherwise they are just selling offal as fine cuts of steak.
I would venture to guess, furthermore, that PvP'ers are more likely to spend money on the game's subscription and crown store offerings by far than your average PvE player. We'll never know since Zenimax is a privately owned group and hell will freeze over before they offer numbers about their operation.
But I have a suspicion that I am right and if so they need to treat PvP as ultra-premium content.2 -
Hold your sarcasm, he is right. Some skills already have different behavior in pvp and pve and this is good idea. For example taunting in pvp? Seriously?Brutusmax1mus wrote: »You can taunt anything in real life, if it responds doesn't matter. It was still taunted.
How about this? Instead of a game mechanic that alters character behavior, how about if any power that hits a character with a Taunt effect in Cyrodiil instead sends that player a system message from a Zenimax-created list with possibilities like...
<Character> calls you a swit!
<Character> says your mother was Namira and your father smelt of Comberries!
<Character> says you're so weak you swing a sword like a Banekin!
<Character> shouts ALL YOUR KEEP ARE BELONG TO US!
... and so on...
3 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't particularly appreciate seeing 10 to 15k (from proc sets) or 30k of damage from destro ult on my death recap...
but, what's the option - limit all the choices and build diversity...
you have to account for building for survivability and sustainability in pvp...if you focus too much on damage output - you are gonna spend a lot of time waiting for folks to rez you...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place2 -
JDar✭✭✭✭✭I don't particularly appreciate seeing 10 to 15k (from proc sets) or 30k of damage from destro ult on my death recap...
but, what's the option - limit all the choices and build diversity...
you have to account for building for survivability and sustainability in pvp...if you focus too much on damage output - you are gonna spend a lot of time waiting for folks to rez you...
That's an excellent point -- the other problem however, is that when it is too easy to defend yourself, the game becomes as unfun as I can imagine it. I still enjoy playing the game -- so I wouldn't dare say I don't have fun because otherwise I'd not be playing.
But this past patch has been at a nadir of funness.
I have long been using this analogy on these forums, and I know we're not all sports fans, but if the NBA can become fun to watch, and the NFL can be fun to watch like it was 8-10 years ago, there's a way to strike the right balance here too.
Sadly, this game seems to be headed towards the NBA of 15 years ago where most games devolved into a free throw contest. I could go on with the sports analogies but I think we all agree:
1) We want the PvP game to favor attacking, creative players
2) We do not want the game to be dominated by players whose sole mission is to survive as long as possible while inflicting small amounts of damage on everything that comes near it in order to score points. That is about as fun as a 6-2 football game. Two field goals winning over a defensive safety (2 points.) That's what this meta feels like.
I hate to beat a dead horse but I had been warning about this for months. The game needs to be fast, exciting, and favor the bold while not allowing instagibbing and unskilled gankers running cookie cutter stamblade builds like there are today (you know who you are. Git gud).
This ideal was most closely exemplified during Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood patches. They've done it before, I am sure they can do it again!
Edit for spelling and the following addendum:
I don't think limiting the sets or skills that are PvP-eligible will reduce build diversity at all! I think there are plenty of sets and plenty of options for theorycrafters! (As an aside I think they need to keep adjusting enchantments and potions to complement and complete certain builds, but otherwise, the set build diversity is good. Other than them all being too tanky and ganky!)Edited by JDar on January 3, 2017 5:34AM1 -
JDar✭✭✭✭✭mandrakethebard_ESO wrote: »Hold your sarcasm, he is right. Some skills already have different behavior in pvp and pve and this is good idea. For example taunting in pvp? Seriously?Brutusmax1mus wrote: »You can taunt anything in real life, if it responds doesn't matter. It was still taunted.
How about this? Instead of a game mechanic that alters character behavior, how about if any power that hits a character with a Taunt effect in Cyrodiil instead sends that player a system message from a Zenimax-created list with possibilities like...
<Character> calls you a swit!
<Character> says your mother was Namira and your father smelt of Comberries!
<Character> says you're so weak you swing a sword like a Banekin!
<Character> shouts ALL YOUR KEEP ARE BELONG TO US!
... and so on...
I awesome'd this post. I like this.0 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I demand a campaign where no gear can be equipped, no weapons, no CP, you are naked and can only throw fists.2 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭Proccsets has no place in pvp tho, just saying, and its true. Unless we all wanna sit around a campfire throwing dice at whos gonna win the next fight, because we aint far from that now.
Prioc sets are required to combat the lag. It spreads people out. Without providing sets lag will get worse.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South0 -
Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hopefully at some point Zos will listen to this. Proc sets have no place in PVP. Stop tweaking this or that on them and just remove them from PVP. Put it in Battlespirit so that it removes any proc gear or weapon sets thus forcing the player to use something else.NA Server - Kildair2 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭pvp should always be based on skill and not gear performance.
Give everyone sticks and stones2 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »pvp should always be based on skill and not gear performance.
Give everyone sticks and stones
But sticks and stones may break my bones!
Give everyone words. They will never hurt me. Or you. Or anyone ... except for those overly sensitive types. Give them kittens.
1
