Breath of Life Cost Increase

Blackfyre20

Malubeth/reactive wearing templar healbots spamming BoL are the worst kind of cancer are broken, easy mode, OP healers in PvP right now IMO. I dislike them more than proc set stackers I think (maybe, it's close). They are the toughest class to kill by far and they won't kill you, but the other members of their group who they are keeping alive will. Or, they will sit there holding block and spamming BoL until they get their destro ult and can go offfensive with one button. One or two BoL and a player goes from almost zero health to full health. In an outnumbered fight, if you try to focus the healer first (which generally should be a good strategy), they can keep themselves alive easily while their group members beat on you. And if you focus on other members of their group, you will get one down to almost no health to see them instantly go back to full. The malubeth/reactive set is cancerous for sure and is a huge reason why these templars can be so unkillable, but BoL is a problem. It should be an "oh sh**" heal and not one that can be spammed endlessly.

What I propose is a decrease to the base cost of the ability and a cost increase on subsequent casts of BoL, similar to how streak functions currently. 50% cost increase is over the top, but some sort of small increase each time it is recast within a certain time frame, say 4 seconds (I think that is what streak is), would solve this issue of templars being able to keep themselves and everyone in their small group alive by pressing a single button over and over again. The idea is this cost increase would not really hurt until it is spammed 3-4 times in about 5 seconds

Edit: An idea proposed by someone else in the thread which I think is awesome would be to decrease the initial cost of the ability. This would reward thoughtful, skillful healing and punish single button mashing healing. Also I understand this may have a negative effect on PvE so make it a PvP only effect on the ability. Additionally I agree that these changes should be implemented alongside changes to proc set damage and fixed to bugs like CC lock. It is certainly not the only unbalanced part of PvP, just one of multiple issues.

yodased

And effectively murder trials healing.

Blackfyre20

yodased wrote: »

And effectively murder trials healing.

Don't run trials so I couldn't say. Don't like doing this but I think PvE and PvP are too hard to balance side by side all the time so make it a PvP only effect?

yodased

Just saying, if you did an increase scale of BoL for healing in PvE you would make it almost impossible to heal through heal checks.

hell, even in SoTH hard mode dungeons, you have heal checks that would be very difficult if BoL took a hit like this.

Also, those templars are only staying up because someone is trying to melee them, have a mdk hit them in the face with a big rock, then drop an even bigger rock from the sky, ggwp.

Thelon

timidobserver

I picture a guy failing to proc down a Templar, getting rekt by others because he was tunnel visioning the troll healer, and immediately tabbing to the forums to complain.

Blackfyre20

yodased wrote: »

Also, those templars are only staying up because someone is trying to melee them, have a mdk hit them in the face with a big rock, then drop an even bigger rock from the sky, ggwp.

More often than not that reactive set is going to keep them alive just by a sliver which is all they need to hit BoL a couple times and we're back at square one.

Isellskooma

L2P issue. Jk

Sandman929

The biggest problem in PvP is Death-By-Armor. Healers doing what healers are supposed to do is fine, I think the problem with the scenario that you're describing is that Reactive armor exists. Malubeth could probably use a tweak or two as well, but Reactive, a 35% damage reduction while the user has a disabling effect in a game filled with disabling effects, needs to be re-evaluated.

Blackfyre20

timidobserver wrote: »

I picture a guy failing to proc down a Templar, getting rekt by others because he was tunnel visioning the troll healer, and immediately tabbing to the forums to complain.

Instead you should picture someone without proc sets who gets a little frustrated when one person button mashing a single button can keep himself and his buddies alive but can't kill anything leading to an endless fight until more people on one side or another show up. Or someone who finally set up a good burst combo while the templar makes a mistake only to have malubeth proc and now we start over.

timidobserver

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I picture a guy failing to proc down a Templar, getting rekt by others because he was tunnel visioning the troll healer, and immediately tabbing to the forums to complain.

Instead you should picture someone without proc sets who gets a little frustrated when one person button mashing a single button can keep himself and his buddies alive but can't kill anything leading to an endless fight until more people on one side or another show up. Or someone who finally set up a good burst combo while the templar makes a mistake only to have malubeth proc and now we start over.

You are doing it wrong. Max burst can easily exceed max heals unless you are hammering on troll tanks.

Blackfyre20

Sandman929 wrote: »

The biggest problem in PvP is Death-By-Armor. Healers doing what healers are supposed to do is fine, I think the problem with the scenario that you're describing is that Reactive armor exists. Malubeth could probably use a tweak or two as well, but Reactive, a 35% damage reduction while the user has a disabling effect in a game filled with disabling effects, needs to be re-evaluated.

Fair point for sure. I also just don't like the skill-less one button FTW state of the game. BoL to proc sets, can't get away from it.

Isellskooma

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I picture a guy failing to proc down a Templar, getting rekt by others because he was tunnel visioning the troll healer, and immediately tabbing to the forums to complain.

Instead you should picture someone without proc sets who gets a little frustrated when one person button mashing a single button can keep himself and his buddies alive but can't kill anything leading to an endless fight until more people on one side or another show up. Or someone who finally set up a good burst combo while the templar makes a mistake only to have malubeth proc and now we start over.

This happens to me all the time, I literally stopped solo PvPing cause of this. I can't kill malubeth reactive healers, especially since I don't wear cheese. Zos need to add skill to healing, not just press one button and heal to full without having to worry about resources. There's people out there with 800 regen but can heal forever. Needs some serious adjustments

Lieblingsjunge

How to murder non-CP-campaigns: Increase BoL cost.
How to murder PvE: Increase BoL cost.

Don't blame the skills for something that's the CP's fault.

Koolio

I'll take a 15% increase if I can have the third heal back.

Sandman929

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

The biggest problem in PvP is Death-By-Armor. Healers doing what healers are supposed to do is fine, I think the problem with the scenario that you're describing is that Reactive armor exists. Malubeth could probably use a tweak or two as well, but Reactive, a 35% damage reduction while the user has a disabling effect in a game filled with disabling effects, needs to be re-evaluated.

Fair point for sure. I also just don't like the skill-less one button FTW state of the game. BoL to proc sets, can't get away from it.

I agree that spamming BoL shouldn't be effective healing. There are plenty of people who do just that in PvP but the better healers rotate purges, buffs, HoTs and burst heals.
I would like healing to require greater depth than a single skill, but right now it's not required it's just optional.

AzuraKin

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Malubeth/reactive wearing templar healbots spamming BoL are the worst kind of cancer in PvP right now IMO. I dislike them more than proc set stackers I think (maybe, it's close). They are the toughest class to kill by far and they won't kill you, but the other members of their group who they are keeping alive will. Or, they will sit there holding block and spamming BoL until they get their destro ult and can go offfensive with one button. One or two BoL and a player goes from almost zero health to full health. In an outnumbered fight, if you try to focus the healer first (which generally should be a good strategy), they can keep themselves alive easily while their group members beat on you. And if you focus on other members of their group, you will get one down to almost no health to see them instantly go back to full. The malubeth/reactive set is cancerous for sure and is a huge reason why these templars can be so unkillable, but BoL is a problem. It should be an "oh sh**" heal and not one that can be spammed endlessly.

What I propose is a cost increase on subsequent casts of BoL, similar to how streak functions currently. 50% cost increase is over the top, but some sort of small increase each time it is recast within a certain time frame, say 4 seconds (I think that is what streak is), would solve this issue of templars being able to keep themselves and everyone in their small group alive by pressing a single button over and over again.

lol first of all bol cannot be sustained even at max regen if pvpers knwo what they are doing. secondly you can easily debuff a damage dealer's healing by 80% with just fasallas + major defile.

lolo_01b16_ESO

BoL is already one of the most expensive skills in game. I think the only ones more expensive are siege shield, purge, mines and the range morph of detonation.

Also how can you fail to kill a healing templar when your group focuses on him? (not talking about blazing shield templars since they can't heal much) If you time your attacks with your group mates a single healer shouldn't stand a chance. And with clever use of cc and ultimates you should be able to make sure that his allies don't disturb you while you burst him.
The only issue could be if you face a group with a lot of healers. But even then you should be able to outplay them, assuming you have about similar group size and good group coordination.
And if you can't win a 1v12 against a group with multiple templars, that's not a bol issue.

Dasovaruilos

While the problem with PvP is huge automatic skilless damage and dying in 1 second, you are worried about the ONLY build that kills absolutely no one?

I use my PvE healer in PvP for fun, not optimal, and unless I have a lot of DPSs around me, I'm AP waiting to be collected for enemies.

And this is actually an easily countered build: just use poisons. Healplars are only alive as long as they have resources.

So, there is a counter to this build, they give you plenty of time to react and counter act and you can safely ignore them and be on your way.

I really don't think this is the worse build right now.

Also, a good Sorcerer is usually much harder to kill than this build.

EDIT: Another good strategy: Kill the healer last. BoL only targets two people and is expensive already. Most of the times I die, is because everyone around me is dead.

Blackfyre20

AzuraKin wrote: »

lol first of all bol cannot be sustained even at max regen if pvpers knwo what they are doing. secondly you can easily debuff a damage dealer's healing by 80% with just fasallas + major defile.

lol first of all yes it can if the templar just somewhat knows what he/she is doing. secondly you can easily purge both debuffs with extended/purifying ritual. Also good luck getting the offense to kill said templar while wearing fasallas.

Isellskooma

hugocbp wrote: »

While the problem with PvP is huge automatic skilless damage and dying in 1 second, you are worried about the ONLY build that kills absolutely no one?

I use my PvE healer in PvP for fun, not optimal, and unless I have a lot of DPSs around me, I'm AP waiting to be collected for enemies.

And this is actually an easily countered build: just use poisons. Healplars are only alive as long as they have resources.

So, there is a counter to this build, they give you plenty of time to react and counter act and you can safely ignore them and be on your way.

I really don't think this is the worse build right now.

Also, a good Sorcerer is usually much harder to kill than this build.

Lol, if you're getting Xv1 the Templar is never going to run out of resources. Yea if you're in a group it's easy to kill them, but when you're solo good luck you're not killing a reactive/malubeth healer.

Blackfyre20

hugocbp wrote: »

While the problem with PvP is huge automatic skilless damage and dying in 1 second, you are worried about the ONLY build that kills absolutely no one?

I use my PvE healer in PvP for fun, not optimal, and unless I have a lot of DPSs around me, I'm AP waiting to be collected for enemies.

And this is actually an easily countered build: just use poisons. Healplars are only alive as long as they have resources.

So, there is a counter to this build, they give you plenty of time to react and counter act and you can safely ignore them and be on your way.

I really don't think this is the worse build right now.

Also, a good Sorcerer is usually much harder to kill than this build.

That is definitely not the only build I am worried about and I agree the other things you mentioned are a huge problem. I am just most frustrated by this as I mostly play solo, so while it is frustrating to see viper/veli/tremor on my death recaps I can usually avoid the burst and kill the proc set wearer, even outnumbered. What I can't do is kill people while outnumbered and there is a malubeth/reactive wearing BoL spammer in the group. And no I don't think I should be able to 1vX all the time, but even if I am with a few other people and we are slightly outnumbered it is extremely difficult to deal with a group with said templar(s). What typically ends up happening is the fight becomes endless until more people on either side arrive.

A GOOD sorc may be harder to kill by themselves but at least they are not keeping everyone else in their group alive while they're at it by repeatedly pressing one button. I stress the word good because playing a shield stacking sorc takes skillful play IMO, managing 6 second shields is not easy mode contrary to popular belief around here.

CatchMeTrolling

How about no. Especially when there's enough debuffs to reduce a Templars healing to damn near 0. This isn't COD you're not going to be able to kill everyone in seconds which everyone so loves to do. And stam dks are the tankiest in the game btw.

I wonder why small scale dies even more every patch then I see threads like this.

Dasovaruilos

Isellskooma wrote: »

hugocbp wrote: »

While the problem with PvP is huge automatic skilless damage and dying in 1 second, you are worried about the ONLY build that kills absolutely no one?

I use my PvE healer in PvP for fun, not optimal, and unless I have a lot of DPSs around me, I'm AP waiting to be collected for enemies.

And this is actually an easily countered build: just use poisons. Healplars are only alive as long as they have resources.

So, there is a counter to this build, they give you plenty of time to react and counter act and you can safely ignore them and be on your way.

I really don't think this is the worse build right now.

Also, a good Sorcerer is usually much harder to kill than this build.

Lol, if you're getting Xv1 the Templar is never going to run out of resources. Yea if you're in a group it's easy to kill them, but when you're solo good luck you're not killing a reactive/malubeth healer.

1vX should only be possible when one player is vastly superior to others in terms of skill, including group coordination. If you are greatly outnumbered by a group of organized players, you should die.

Dasovaruilos

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

hugocbp wrote: »

While the problem with PvP is huge automatic skilless damage and dying in 1 second, you are worried about the ONLY build that kills absolutely no one?

I use my PvE healer in PvP for fun, not optimal, and unless I have a lot of DPSs around me, I'm AP waiting to be collected for enemies.

And this is actually an easily countered build: just use poisons. Healplars are only alive as long as they have resources.

So, there is a counter to this build, they give you plenty of time to react and counter act and you can safely ignore them and be on your way.

I really don't think this is the worse build right now.

Also, a good Sorcerer is usually much harder to kill than this build.

That is definitely not the only build I am worried about and I agree the other things you mentioned are a huge problem. I am just most frustrated by this as I mostly play solo, so while it is frustrating to see viper/veli/tremor on my death recaps I can usually avoid the burst and kill the proc set wearer, even outnumbered. What I can't do is kill people while outnumbered and there is a malubeth/reactive wearing BoL spammer in the group. And no I don't think I should be able to 1vX all the time, but even if I am with a few other people and we are slightly outnumbered it is extremely difficult to deal with a group with said templar(s). What typically ends up happening is the fight becomes endless until more people on either side arrive.

A GOOD sorc may be harder to kill by themselves but at least they are not keeping everyone else in their group alive while they're at it by repeatedly pressing one button. I stress the word good because playing a shield stacking sorc takes skillful play IMO, managing 6 second shields is not easy mode contrary to popular belief around here.

You say like pressing BoL while in Heavy Armor is cheap and can be done indefinitely. It can't. What you sacrifice to stay alive in PvP will greatly decrease the number of BoL you can spam.

You said in your post, and I quote:

Malubeth/Reactive wearing templar healbots spamming BoL are the worst kind of cancer in PvP right now IMO.

The only time a Malubeth/Reactive healer is effective is with an organized group. They NEED a few DPSs and maybe a tank supporting to be effective. If you find a healer in that group, you shouldn't be able to 1vX everyone.

I'm just saying that we are far, far from the biggest problem in PvP... No Reactive/Malubeth Healplar will outheal a group with strategic poisons, negates, Destro ulti and stealth combos.

Blackfyre20

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

How about no. Especially when there's enough debuffs to reduce a Templars healing to damn near 0. This isn't COD you're not going to be able to kill everyone in seconds which everyone so loves to do. And stam dks are the tankiest in the game btw.

I wonder why small scale dies even more every patch then I see threads like this.

You are aware there is a button to get rid of all those debuffs with one tap right? Also, I'd love for longer fights where sustain becomes important but that should involve health going down somewhat gradually then, not the current burst down to 10% instantaneously, BoL back to full, burst down to 15%, Bol back to full cycle. Damage is part of the problem but so is BoL. If you decrease damage, increasing TTK, without adjusting BoL then fights with templars would literally not end, ever. I would love to hear how this suggestion would hurt small scale more than it would help?

AzuraKin

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

How about no. Especially when there's enough debuffs to reduce a Templars healing to damn near 0. This isn't COD you're not going to be able to kill everyone in seconds which everyone so loves to do. And stam dks are the tankiest in the game btw.

I wonder why small scale dies even more every patch then I see threads like this.

You are aware there is a button to get rid of all those debuffs with one tap right? Also, I'd love for longer fights where sustain becomes important but that should involve health going down somewhat gradually then, not the current burst down to 10% instantaneously, BoL back to full, burst down to 15%, Bol back to full cycle. Damage is part of the problem but so is BoL. If you decrease damage, increasing TTK, without adjusting BoL then fights with templars would literally not end, ever. I would love to hear how this suggestion would hurt small scale more than it would help?

rofl you mean the 1 button that requires heavy use of crafted potions, and max regen? and even then requires help from teammates and is at best barely sustainable if combined with specialized builds on the caster and with team support armors (worm cult) that sure they can heal when you hit them with poisens, but hit them with cost reducing poisens and they will run out of magicka.

Blackfyre20

hugocbp wrote: »

You said in your post, and I quote:

Malubeth/Reactive wearing templar healbots spamming BoL are the worst kind of cancer in PvP right now IMO.

And in my second post I didn't stray from that. I admitted there are other huge problems but this is definitely up there and for me "IMO" this is the worst one to deal with. You are correct none of these templars will outheal the coordinated group that you described, but short of that ideal coordination or superior numbers a mediocre malubeth/reactive templar can outheal incoming damage.

Blackfyre20

AzuraKin wrote: »

rofl you mean the 1 button that requires heavy use of crafted potions, and max regen? and even then requires help from teammates and is at best barely sustainable if combined with specialized builds on the caster and with team support armors (worm cult) that sure they can heal when you hit them with poisens, but hit them with cost reducing poisens and they will run out of magicka.

I was talking about extended ritual so literally zero things you said apply...

WhiteMage

Healing needs major toning down in this game, it's far too powerful everywhere. And its CP cost reductions should go.

Heck, get rid of CP while we're at it. That or just divide the buffs by, like... 5. It's a step in the right direction.

CatchMeTrolling

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

How about no. Especially when there's enough debuffs to reduce a Templars healing to damn near 0. This isn't COD you're not going to be able to kill everyone in seconds which everyone so loves to do. And stam dks are the tankiest in the game btw.

I wonder why small scale dies even more every patch then I see threads like this.

You are aware there is a button to get rid of all those debuffs with one tap right? Also, I'd love for longer fights where sustain becomes important but that should involve health going down somewhat gradually then, not the current burst down to 10% instantaneously, BoL back to full, burst down to 15%, Bol back to full cycle. Damage is part of the problem but so is BoL. If you decrease damage, increasing TTK, without adjusting BoL then fights with templars would literally not end, ever. I would love to hear how this suggestion would hurt small scale more than it would help?

Just as you can purge , you can get debuffed right back ? Your argument is empty because magplar aren't the only ones that can do this , the only difference is they can keep others alive.

And if you increase the cost why wouldn't it hurt small scale? As if no Templars small scale , as if no Templars are needed in small scale lol you're basically arguing that the class known for healing does the job but this issue isn't just a Templar thing at all especially with the introduction of heavy armor & over performing infinite resource stam builds right now.