The roles of Tank, DPS, and Healer need to be redefined

Savos_Saren

So, I've run into a few posts about what a tank, healer, or DPS should be doing in dungeons. I think, over time, these roles have begun to get ruined for this game. I have Tanks who hold aggro, debuff/buff, and use crowd control. I have healers who heal and buff groups while adding DPS when they can. I have DPS who burn mobs/bosses, add debuffs, and buff the group.

I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this game become more and more lopsided. I know that the game seems to be 90% DPS- but in no way should a tank or healer have to run all three roles while DPS continue to become more like "glass cannons". There's no reason why 4-man dungeons should be run with DPSers who have 15k health and die with a petty boss's one-shot. Come-the-hell-on, guys.

I get it- I really do. Tanks and healers need to be versatile and adapt to situations. But some of you DPS need to be able to survive and add to the buffs/debuffs. 30-40K DPS doesn't help if you're dead. Also, I've noticed that people want tanks or healers to run certain builds in order to improve DPS... but the damage dealers aren't pulling 30k. Don't use your tank/healer as your crutch. If a group's going to tell a tank that they have to run tava/ebon/bloodspawn with aggressive warhorn- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS. If a group's telling the healer that they have to run Spellpower Cure with Kagrenac- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS.

Seriously. I feel like this game is going down a slippery slope with the DPS/Tank/Healer roles. There's, quite literally, almost 100 sets in this game. Many are DPS, Tank, or Healer oriented- but it seems like people want to pigeonhole everything into just a couple of sets for each role. Stop it. For the love of Kyne- stop it!

Lord_Eomer

I think its quiet fine if everyone doing their role properly!

PieMaster1

..And here come the morons saying "That's the beauty of ESO. It's their choice! They can be whatever role they want! If a DPS wants to be a tank with 15k then let him!! Who are you to dictate what their roles should be?!"

Savos_Saren

The key word being "properly". We all know- that glass cannons don't work. I also think (unfortunately) that this game might be slipping toward the "power creep" dilemma. But besides that- I've seen the damage dealer slowly go lower and lower in health points as the game progresses. Remember when DPS needed at least 20k health when in a vet dungeon? Now, some DPS think that they're okay with 15k when entering Ruins of Mazzatun. No... that's not okay.

AzuraKin

jaburns wrote: »

So, I've run into a few posts about what a tank, healer, or DPS should be doing in dungeons. I think, over time, these roles have begun to get ruined for this game. I have Tanks who hold aggro, debuff/buff, and use crowd control. I have healers who heal and buff groups while adding DPS when they can. I have DPS who burn mobs/bosses, add debuffs, and buff the group.

I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this game become more and more lopsided. I know that the game seems to be 90% DPS- but in no way should a tank or healer have to run all three roles while DPS continue to become more like "glass cannons". There's no reason why 4-man dungeons should be run with DPSers who have 15k health and die with a petty boss's one-shot. Come-the-hell-on, guys.

I get it- I really do. Tanks and healers need to be versatile and adapt to situations. But some of you DPS need to be able to survive and add to the buffs/debuffs. 30-40K DPS doesn't help if you're dead. Also, I've noticed that people want tanks or healers to run certain builds in order to improve DPS... but the damage dealers aren't pulling 30k. Don't use your tank/healer as your crutch. If a group's going to tell a tank that they have to run tava/ebon/bloodspawn with aggressive warhorn- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS. If a group's telling the healer that they have to run Spellpower Cure with Kagrenac- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS.

Seriously. I feel like this game is going down a slippery slope with the DPS/Tank/Healer roles. There's, quite literally, almost 100 sets in this game. Many are DPS, Tank, or Healer oriented- but it seems like people want to pigeonhole everything into just a couple of sets for each role. Stop it. For the love of Kyne- stop it!

pretty much same for every game i played in last 8 years. starts off with balanced roles, then after a few years you pretty much just hvae every one run dps or dps and buffs.

Savos_Saren

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

..And here come the morons saying "That's the beauty of ESO. It's their choice! They can be whatever role they want! If a DPS wants to be a tank with 15k then let him!! Who are you to dictate what their roles should be?!"

Exactly. Except- now it's not just idiot DPS playing the role of tank with 15k health. Now, it's DPS with 15k health spamming snipe thinking that the tank should buff them while holding aggro and the healer should heal while debuffing the boss.

bottleofsyrup

Sometimes it feels like ZOS is trying to get rid of tanks entirely given how many bosses seem to just lose aggro and become untauntable for periods of time; and no, I'm not talking about mechanics where the boss lashes out at a random group member or the boss enrages.

Savos_Saren

AzuraKin wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

So, I've run into a few posts about what a tank, healer, or DPS should be doing in dungeons. I think, over time, these roles have begun to get ruined for this game. I have Tanks who hold aggro, debuff/buff, and use crowd control. I have healers who heal and buff groups while adding DPS when they can. I have DPS who burn mobs/bosses, add debuffs, and buff the group.

I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this game become more and more lopsided. I know that the game seems to be 90% DPS- but in no way should a tank or healer have to run all three roles while DPS continue to become more like "glass cannons". There's no reason why 4-man dungeons should be run with DPSers who have 15k health and die with a petty boss's one-shot. Come-the-hell-on, guys.

I get it- I really do. Tanks and healers need to be versatile and adapt to situations. But some of you DPS need to be able to survive and add to the buffs/debuffs. 30-40K DPS doesn't help if you're dead. Also, I've noticed that people want tanks or healers to run certain builds in order to improve DPS... but the damage dealers aren't pulling 30k. Don't use your tank/healer as your crutch. If a group's going to tell a tank that they have to run tava/ebon/bloodspawn with aggressive warhorn- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS. If a group's telling the healer that they have to run Spellpower Cure with Kagrenac- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS.

Seriously. I feel like this game is going down a slippery slope with the DPS/Tank/Healer roles. There's, quite literally, almost 100 sets in this game. Many are DPS, Tank, or Healer oriented- but it seems like people want to pigeonhole everything into just a couple of sets for each role. Stop it. For the love of Kyne- stop it!

pretty much same for every game i played in last 8 years. starts off with balanced roles, then after a few years you pretty much just hvae every one run dps or dps and buffs.

Thanks bud. I was hoping I wasn't the only one who shared this sentiment. When I entered vDSA- I had no problem tanking... but then I noticed that my DPSes wanted me to take all four sub-bosses away while they DPSed the one, single, boss. I'm supposed to heal myself, DPS, and aggro all at the same time.

Yes, I know this can can be done- but this sets presidence for a bad future. So, the tank is supposed to pull all three roles while the DPS burn down one, single boss? Not to mention that the healer is also supposed to "tank" the boss during this stage. So, again, you have a tank healing, DPSing, and aggroing while you have a healer aggroing, healing, and DPSing while the DPS just ::pew pew:: burn.

I think the 90% majority of this game (DPS) is starting to get spoiled.

Savos_Saren

bottleofsyrup wrote: »

Sometimes it feels like ZOS is trying to get rid of tanks entirely given how many bosses seem to just lose aggro and become untauntable for periods of time; and no, I'm not talking about mechanics where the boss lashes out at a random group member or the boss enrages.

Actually, I agree with you on this. The same goes for the fact that a boss shows immunities to abilities that a class has. If I'm a tank and I throw up talons- a boss had better be effected by them.

I wish ZoS could use some sort of coding to where if a tank has taunt on a boss- then no matter what abilities he/she uses on the boss- it'll effect them.

EvilCroc

As I've said many times, in ESO always everything is DD's fault.
Low DPS is universal cause of any possible group fail.
In other MMOs - blame the healer, in ESO - blame DD's.

Integral1900

One of the biggest problems is that the game itself makes no effort to teach people this stuff, you hear players whining about tanks without taunts but the only reason my tank had a taunt when she did the first dungeon with a group was because I had blundered into it by accident a few weeks earlier, slotting it instead of something else.

This game needs things like proper in game dungeon training in the different roles, one reason why you get so many dps is because it's easier to learn, i.e. Do what you've done everywhere else... Kill stuff, a lot of it.... really quick like

It needs training dummies, more information on effects and statistics without needing more game slowing addons, for example, the only way I know to find out how much penetration, crit and damage is a good balance is to look up stats on google! Or just keep farting around until stuff dies faster.

On the same line though the game definitely does not need simplifying, it's complexity is part of its charm, it's just needs to communicate better...

Savos_Saren

EvilCroc wrote: »

As I've said many times, in ESO always everything is DD's fault.
Low DPS is universal cause of any possible group fail.
In other MMOs - blame the healer, in ESO - blame DD's.

I don't blame the DDs. As we know- you get some random PUG members claiming to be Tanks or Healers- but they're not. So, you don't get the actual role fulfilled. However, I do blame DDs that use their tank/healer as a crutch for their sh*ty DPS and low health.

I call bullsh*t on that part.

A tank nor a healer should have to provide all the buffs/debuffs AND health/magic bonus to a group while DPS slowly become closer and closer to glass cannons.

DigitalShibby

I play a healer, all too often in pug's for vet pledges I'm having to work like a mad man to keep these glass cannon builds up. Sure, I like finishing a dungeon in 15-20 minutes but it gets old having to over heal other people's fragile builds. I'm amazed how low health these dps guys come in with sometimes. 15k health on multiple guys nearly getting wrecked every second because their trying to burn through everything in record time gets annoying pretty quick. Especially when they just constantly run ahead not even caring about getting a pre-fight buff, or anyone else's resources.
I actually like dungeons so I'd rather spend 30-40 minutes in one with a well balanced team vs being the glass cannon baby sitter every day.

idk

@jaburns

What are you talking about? Are you getting into pugs for pledges and getting demands for what you should have equipped as a tank?

I have yet to have anyone ask me about my gear or skills when I am tanking a dungeon or healing one (yes, I heal dungeons with only BoL, Regen and Repentance. I have never been asked to use WH or have bloodspawn sloted.

Now for tanking or healing trial, yes, i am asked to use certain skills and gear. It is normal and I personally expect it from a good raid leader. For a dungeon, hardly.

AzuraKin

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I play a healer, all too often in pug's for vet pledges I'm having to work like a mad man to keep these glass cannon builds up. Sure, I like finishing a dungeon in 15-20 minutes but it gets old having to over heal other people's fragile builds. I'm amazed how low health these dps guys come in with sometimes. 15k health on multiple guys nearly getting wrecked every second because their trying to burn through everything in record time gets annoying pretty quick. Especially when they just constantly run ahead not even caring about getting a pre-fight buff, or anyone else's resources.
I actually like dungeons so I'd rather spend 30-40 minutes in one with a well balanced team vs being the glass cannon baby sitter every day.

15k health on a dps means they missing passives somewhere, very low cp, or not geared right. my main toon a mage dps-healer hybrid nb runs 18k health with zero health passives or attributes.

Runs

I saw one thread where someone mentioned they expect their healers to do at least 20k DPS while healing.

I still don't know if they were trolling or not.

idk

AzuraKin wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I play a healer, all too often in pug's for vet pledges I'm having to work like a mad man to keep these glass cannon builds up. Sure, I like finishing a dungeon in 15-20 minutes but it gets old having to over heal other people's fragile builds. I'm amazed how low health these dps guys come in with sometimes. 15k health on multiple guys nearly getting wrecked every second because their trying to burn through everything in record time gets annoying pretty quick. Especially when they just constantly run ahead not even caring about getting a pre-fight buff, or anyone else's resources.
I actually like dungeons so I'd rather spend 30-40 minutes in one with a well balanced team vs being the glass cannon baby sitter every day.

15k health on a dps means they missing passives somewhere, very low cp, or not geared right. my main toon a mage dps-healer hybrid nb runs 18k health with zero health passives or attributes.

@AzuraKin stamina users often have lower health, I think mine is barely above 16k. They normally wear 7 medium which each piece add crit change which increases their damage more than the extra stats undaunted provides. So they are missing the undaunted passives and the heavy armor passive that increases max health. Only if I am wearing TBS would my health be above 17k.

Tonturri

Runs wrote: »

I saw one thread where someone mentioned they expect their healers to do at least 20k DPS while healing.

I still don't know if they were trolling or not.

Out of curiosity, did they specify AoE or single target?

idk

Runs wrote: »

I saw one thread where someone mentioned they expect their healers to do at least 20k DPS while healing.

I still don't know if they were trolling or not.

@Runs

Nope. As long as the group is decent healers have a lot of time on their hands to dish out DPS. Keeping regen on everyone is often sufficient. An occasional Repentance and an even rarer BoL. So go into a fight, dot ele drain, toss a shard and puncturing sweeps away.

Drummerx04

jaburns wrote: »

Thanks bud. I was hoping I wasn't the only one who shared this sentiment. When I entered vDSA- I had no problem tanking... but then I noticed that my DPSes wanted me to take all four sub-bosses away while they DPSed the one, single, boss. I'm supposed to heal myself, DPS, and aggro all at the same time.

Yes, I know this can can be done- but this sets presidence for a bad future. So, the tank is supposed to pull all three roles while the DPS burn down one, single boss? Not to mention that the healer is also supposed to "tank" the boss during this stage. So, again, you have a tank healing, DPSing, and aggroing while you have a healer aggroing, healing, and DPSing while the DPS just ::pew pew:: burn.

I think the 90% majority of this game (DPS) is starting to get spoiled.

All 3 roles for this fight... what are you talking about? For that strategy, "all you need to do" is aggro the 4 mini bosses and don't die. If you are trying to dps them for some reason, then you are doing something wrong (unless templar tank with jabs I guess). You are not expected to vigor heal the group. So you aren't told to dps or heal, but you claim to have to do all 3 roles and that's not fair.

Tanking the final boss as a healer is fairly easy as more or less nothing he does hits very hard and I've even done it while dpsing without any real issue. But the reason you have someone off tank it is to

1. Keep main boss away from tank.
2. Hold main boss STILL so he can be damaged more efficiently.

My group went into vDSA this week with a full trials support tank, trials support healer (spc/infal) who basically ran 0 dps - save for resto/lightning heavy attacks - and then magNB and magsorc dps. We walked out with a score of almost 42k, so I really don't see your disdain for this setup.

As for your requirement that all DD have 20k health... lol. Basically everything in this game that typically one shots people can be sidestepped, blocked, or dodged, so dying is generally a l2p issue for everyone. In the case of vDSA which probably sparked your rant, the tank has a very important role in quickly aggroing the proper mobs to greatly reduce the chance of one shot.

With the way this game has been set up now, you can't deal good damage without making sacrifices in raw stat survivability. You can't run 2400 mag regen, health enchants, heavy armor, and balanced attribute points... and expect to deal good damage. And if everyone does this in the group then you just have 4 guys with skills on their bars tickling enemies for the next 2 hour long vEH2. But hey, at least no one occasionally got one shotted!

Bobby_V_Rockit

jaburns wrote: »

The key word being "properly". We all know- that glass cannons don't work. I also think (unfortunately) that this game might be slipping toward the "power creep" dilemma. But besides that- I've seen the damage dealer slowly go lower and lower in health points as the game progresses. Remember when DPS needed at least 20k health when in a vet dungeon? Now, some DPS think that they're okay with 15k when entering Ruins of Mazzatun. No... that's not okay.

The problem partly lies in awesome players posting buds, videos and tutorials online, they then become meta as having proven their efficacy, THEN players with less skill (myself included) choose to use some of those builds in an attempt to run the same content (eg. vMA), but without the skill backing the build, it becomes more a hinderance than a boon. Such as animation cancellig, insane amounts of pots, ultra low health + regen.

Sadly, other players having seen the same videos expect other members of their groups to folloq suit as well, further lowering efficiancy until everyone has 15k health, no regen in exchange cor reasonable DPS but never reaching those levels we see online by the pro's

Integral1900

All systems are at their most efficient a hairs bredth from failure, you see this over and over. Superstores do this by running with the smallest stockpiles possible, super cars are amazing unless the tiniest thing goes wrong in which case we are treated to a spectacular smashup, the same applies to in game builds. Even if ZOS does nothing there will always be a pressure for dps to be more and more glass cannons.

Personally I don't want to be a glass cannon, after all, being in a position where half the trash mobs can one shot you does not sound fun

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

jaburns wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

So, I've run into a few posts about what a tank, healer, or DPS should be doing in dungeons. I think, over time, these roles have begun to get ruined for this game. I have Tanks who hold aggro, debuff/buff, and use crowd control. I have healers who heal and buff groups while adding DPS when they can. I have DPS who burn mobs/bosses, add debuffs, and buff the group.

I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this game become more and more lopsided. I know that the game seems to be 90% DPS- but in no way should a tank or healer have to run all three roles while DPS continue to become more like "glass cannons". There's no reason why 4-man dungeons should be run with DPSers who have 15k health and die with a petty boss's one-shot. Come-the-hell-on, guys.

I get it- I really do. Tanks and healers need to be versatile and adapt to situations. But some of you DPS need to be able to survive and add to the buffs/debuffs. 30-40K DPS doesn't help if you're dead. Also, I've noticed that people want tanks or healers to run certain builds in order to improve DPS... but the damage dealers aren't pulling 30k. Don't use your tank/healer as your crutch. If a group's going to tell a tank that they have to run tava/ebon/bloodspawn with aggressive warhorn- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS. If a group's telling the healer that they have to run Spellpower Cure with Kagrenac- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS.

Seriously. I feel like this game is going down a slippery slope with the DPS/Tank/Healer roles. There's, quite literally, almost 100 sets in this game. Many are DPS, Tank, or Healer oriented- but it seems like people want to pigeonhole everything into just a couple of sets for each role. Stop it. For the love of Kyne- stop it!

pretty much same for every game i played in last 8 years. starts off with balanced roles, then after a few years you pretty much just hvae every one run dps or dps and buffs.

Thanks bud. I was hoping I wasn't the only one who shared this sentiment. When I entered vDSA- I had no problem tanking... but then I noticed that my DPSes wanted me to take all four sub-bosses away while they DPSed the one, single, boss. I'm supposed to heal myself, DPS, and aggro all at the same time.

Yes, I know this can can be done- but this sets presidence for a bad future. So, the tank is supposed to pull all three roles while the DPS burn down one, single boss? Not to mention that the healer is also supposed to "tank" the boss during this stage. So, again, you have a tank healing, DPSing, and aggroing while you have a healer aggroing, healing, and DPSing while the DPS just ::pew pew:: burn.

I think the 90% majority of this game (DPS) is starting to get spoiled.

You do not have to dps those particular subbosses, as you put it, at all. All you have to do I hold them away from the other 3 players and survive. That means tanking and healing your self. I personally have tanked that boss at least 20 times, with a stam dk tank. It is easy with the set up I got, I really could tank those four mobs all day long, even with those fire lines on the ground, it is the healer in that fight that has the hardest time, most are not used to having aggro at all, while healing.

idk

jaburns wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

So, I've run into a few posts about what a tank, healer, or DPS should be doing in dungeons. I think, over time, these roles have begun to get ruined for this game. I have Tanks who hold aggro, debuff/buff, and use crowd control. I have healers who heal and buff groups while adding DPS when they can. I have DPS who burn mobs/bosses, add debuffs, and buff the group.

I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this game become more and more lopsided. I know that the game seems to be 90% DPS- but in no way should a tank or healer have to run all three roles while DPS continue to become more like "glass cannons". There's no reason why 4-man dungeons should be run with DPSers who have 15k health and die with a petty boss's one-shot. Come-the-hell-on, guys.

I get it- I really do. Tanks and healers need to be versatile and adapt to situations. But some of you DPS need to be able to survive and add to the buffs/debuffs. 30-40K DPS doesn't help if you're dead. Also, I've noticed that people want tanks or healers to run certain builds in order to improve DPS... but the damage dealers aren't pulling 30k. Don't use your tank/healer as your crutch. If a group's going to tell a tank that they have to run tava/ebon/bloodspawn with aggressive warhorn- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS. If a group's telling the healer that they have to run Spellpower Cure with Kagrenac- they'd all better be pulling at least 30k DPS.

Seriously. I feel like this game is going down a slippery slope with the DPS/Tank/Healer roles. There's, quite literally, almost 100 sets in this game. Many are DPS, Tank, or Healer oriented- but it seems like people want to pigeonhole everything into just a couple of sets for each role. Stop it. For the love of Kyne- stop it!

pretty much same for every game i played in last 8 years. starts off with balanced roles, then after a few years you pretty much just hvae every one run dps or dps and buffs.

Thanks bud. I was hoping I wasn't the only one who shared this sentiment. When I entered vDSA- I had no problem tanking... but then I noticed that my DPSes wanted me to take all four sub-bosses away while they DPSed the one, single, boss. I'm supposed to heal myself, DPS, and aggro all at the same time.

Yes, I know this can can be done- but this sets presidence for a bad future. So, the tank is supposed to pull all three roles while the DPS burn down one, single boss? Not to mention that the healer is also supposed to "tank" the boss during this stage. So, again, you have a tank healing, DPSing, and aggroing while you have a healer aggroing, healing, and DPSing while the DPS just ::pew pew:: burn.

I think the 90% majority of this game (DPS) is starting to get spoiled.

@jaburns That is the easier way to do it. Much easier on the tank since there is no timer to watch and tank does not have to deal with novas. Not sure where the DPS requirement comes from since your only holding the 4 mini bosses away from the group.

The work is really on the healer on that fight since they are tanking the main boss, healing the DPS and themselves and avoiding the big AoEs.

AzuraKin

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I play a healer, all too often in pug's for vet pledges I'm having to work like a mad man to keep these glass cannon builds up. Sure, I like finishing a dungeon in 15-20 minutes but it gets old having to over heal other people's fragile builds. I'm amazed how low health these dps guys come in with sometimes. 15k health on multiple guys nearly getting wrecked every second because their trying to burn through everything in record time gets annoying pretty quick. Especially when they just constantly run ahead not even caring about getting a pre-fight buff, or anyone else's resources.
I actually like dungeons so I'd rather spend 30-40 minutes in one with a well balanced team vs being the glass cannon baby sitter every day.

15k health on a dps means they missing passives somewhere, very low cp, or not geared right. my main toon a mage dps-healer hybrid nb runs 18k health with zero health passives or attributes.

@AzuraKin stamina users often have lower health, I think mine is barely above 16k. They normally wear 7 medium which each piece add crit change which increases their damage more than the extra stats undaunted provides. So they are missing the undaunted passives and the heavy armor passive that increases max health. Only if I am wearing TBS would my health be above 17k.

if you running 7p medium 17k health you better be bowman, you need at least 20k better with 22k health if you melee.

idk

AzuraKin wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I play a healer, all too often in pug's for vet pledges I'm having to work like a mad man to keep these glass cannon builds up. Sure, I like finishing a dungeon in 15-20 minutes but it gets old having to over heal other people's fragile builds. I'm amazed how low health these dps guys come in with sometimes. 15k health on multiple guys nearly getting wrecked every second because their trying to burn through everything in record time gets annoying pretty quick. Especially when they just constantly run ahead not even caring about getting a pre-fight buff, or anyone else's resources.
I actually like dungeons so I'd rather spend 30-40 minutes in one with a well balanced team vs being the glass cannon baby sitter every day.

15k health on a dps means they missing passives somewhere, very low cp, or not geared right. my main toon a mage dps-healer hybrid nb runs 18k health with zero health passives or attributes.

@AzuraKin stamina users often have lower health, I think mine is barely above 16k. They normally wear 7 medium which each piece add crit change which increases their damage more than the extra stats undaunted provides. So they are missing the undaunted passives and the heavy armor passive that increases max health. Only if I am wearing TBS would my health be above 17k.

if you running 7p medium 17k health you better be bowman, you need at least 20k better with 22k health if you melee.

@AzuraKin

Hardly. That is my only stam DPS and have run it through all 3 vet Craglorn trials many times without issue. Barely over 16k health when I am running NMG vs TBS. No issues and always melee. I do not think any DPS I run with have 20k+ health except with Ebon and something like TBS on. Rarely see Ebon in the Craglorn trials either.

Just have to pay attention to what is going on to avoid red circles and heavy attacks (which of course only come from mobs since boss is tanked).

Edit: when wearing TBS that stam character has less than 17.5k health.

dday3six

AzuraKin wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I play a healer, all too often in pug's for vet pledges I'm having to work like a mad man to keep these glass cannon builds up. Sure, I like finishing a dungeon in 15-20 minutes but it gets old having to over heal other people's fragile builds. I'm amazed how low health these dps guys come in with sometimes. 15k health on multiple guys nearly getting wrecked every second because their trying to burn through everything in record time gets annoying pretty quick. Especially when they just constantly run ahead not even caring about getting a pre-fight buff, or anyone else's resources.
I actually like dungeons so I'd rather spend 30-40 minutes in one with a well balanced team vs being the glass cannon baby sitter every day.

15k health on a dps means they missing passives somewhere, very low cp, or not geared right. my main toon a mage dps-healer hybrid nb runs 18k health with zero health passives or attributes.

AzuraKin stamina users often have lower health, I think mine is barely above 16k. They normally wear 7 medium which each piece add crit change which increases their damage more than the extra stats undaunted provides. So they are missing the undaunted passives and the heavy armor passive that increases max health. Only if I am wearing TBS would my health be above 17k.

if you running 7p medium 17k health you better be bowman, you need at least 20k better with 22k health if you melee.

LoL, perhaps if you don't understand how to avoid damage. Otherwise 17k is enough. 22k is way more than a DPS needs.

idk

dday3six wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I play a healer, all too often in pug's for vet pledges I'm having to work like a mad man to keep these glass cannon builds up. Sure, I like finishing a dungeon in 15-20 minutes but it gets old having to over heal other people's fragile builds. I'm amazed how low health these dps guys come in with sometimes. 15k health on multiple guys nearly getting wrecked every second because their trying to burn through everything in record time gets annoying pretty quick. Especially when they just constantly run ahead not even caring about getting a pre-fight buff, or anyone else's resources.
I actually like dungeons so I'd rather spend 30-40 minutes in one with a well balanced team vs being the glass cannon baby sitter every day.

15k health on a dps means they missing passives somewhere, very low cp, or not geared right. my main toon a mage dps-healer hybrid nb runs 18k health with zero health passives or attributes.

AzuraKin stamina users often have lower health, I think mine is barely above 16k. They normally wear 7 medium which each piece add crit change which increases their damage more than the extra stats undaunted provides. So they are missing the undaunted passives and the heavy armor passive that increases max health. Only if I am wearing TBS would my health be above 17k.

if you running 7p medium 17k health you better be bowman, you need at least 20k better with 22k health if you melee.

LoL, perhaps if you don't understand how to avoid damage. Otherwise 17k is enough. 22k is way more than a DPS needs.

Exactly. People only need enough health to survive. Some would need more than others. As they get used to the content and playing that character they would need less.

Sleep

Runs wrote: »

I saw one thread where someone mentioned they expect their healers to do at least 20k DPS while healing.

I still don't know if they were trolling or not.

they want a magicka nightblade healer.

raglau

I think a cause of this issue is that the fight designs are generally very mundane, with ZOS choosing to give bosses lots of HP rather than design anything mechanically challenging and which might drive more collaboration. So these fights become something of a slog, the solution to which is everybody does DPS so they can get out in a reasonable time.

It's not helped by a seeming addiction to using hard-mode on every pledge, even when the team is clearly not up to the job. A good example of this arose in Elden Hollow 1 vet yesterday, where the Finder called my CP380 tank in to a team waiting at Chokethorn. Never a great sign as you always wonder why the previous tank has left, well I soon found out... These guys all died on Chokethorn repeatedly for not moving out of his AoE blast, and were so dim-witted they could not see the 2 trails of healing from the mini flowers, I had to point them out.

We got to the final boss and the 'leader' (such as he was) read the scroll for HM and we wiped after a pathetic battle where it was evident that neither DD could fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Their weak DPS was made even worse when the leader said to them, 'go ranged, we'll be here all day if you melee the boss' (because they kept dieing in her AoE blast, rather than anticipating it and moving out of range), so their already insignificant DPS dropped to virtually zero and we wiped (thank god). I said, 'no hard mode please', and engaged. And the leader starts screaming, 'wipe wipe, no hard mode!!'. I said, 'you guys can't even damage this boss on standard vet, let alone HM', to which the leader responded, 'LEAVE GROUP IF YOU GONNA CRY'.

I let out an involuntary spasm of laughter and immediately dropped group and watched them all die while drinking my coffee There does need to be a reality check amongst people and their abiities as players. There's nothing wrong with working your way up the pecking order until HM is a reality, it's not some challenge of virility that must be accomplished as soon as your ESO balls drop.

Ffastyl

jaburns wrote: »

I also think (unfortunately) that this game might be slipping toward the "power creep" dilemma. But besides that- I've seen the damage dealer slowly go lower and lower in health points as the game progresses.

That ship set sail with Update 6: the simultaneous introduction of the Champion System and removal of soft caps. Min-max has been the way for over a year and the studio is either reluctant or barred from doing the combat overhaul ESO needs to be satisfying.

An overhaul in the pre-alpha stages was slipped during an ESO Live in February 2016. I still am waiting for further word of it.