Shield Breaker 2.0 (name is WIP)

Talcyndl

PvP balance should not rely on the CP system. Some of us still play in Azuras.

IxSTALKERxI

Rather than adding more counters I think it is best just to adjust the overall balance with some balancing tweaks.

@Jamini summed it up pretty well with his post.

The meta needs to be shifted towards more sustain rather than burst burst and more burst and tank tank and more tank like it is atm. A sustain meta would also indirectly buff DPS magicka DK's and even caster magicka nb's and help bring the tanks under control. The meta needs to have a balance between sustain and burst - both should be a viable choice when making a build.

PenguinInACan

I'm a little confused...are we back to block builds are OP again? It's been what...2 years since "block builds" were meta? When holding block didn't drain stam etc people found a way to kill things. Sure balance wasn't perfect and people complained (mostly about DK's and infinite bats), but I'm pretty sure people had a lot more fun PvP-ing in the original "blocking was OP" meta compared to the current "blocking is OP" meta.

People are pushing extremes because of the current state of the game. You have builds that can achieve things that are silly and absurd damage/healing and tank-wise and any combination of the three. If someone is doing obscene burst how can you counter? You heal or tank. If someone is outputting obscene healing how do you counter? You burst or sustain dps. If someone is obscenely tanky how do you counter? You patiently kill them...

ESO has pushed a meta of quick kills and burst for the last year and people have gotten used to it. Now when tanking in PvP is starting to become popular again people are confused as to why they cannot continue the high burst/low TTK meta ZOS pushed.

Tanks aren't really a problem right now...its the mindset of a lot of PvP-ers that has shifted from sustainable fights to quick kills.

IxSTALKERxI

PenguinInACan wrote: »

I'm a little confused...are we back to block builds are OP again? It's been what...2 years since "block builds" were meta? When holding block didn't drain stam etc people found a way to kill things. Sure balance wasn't perfect and people complained (mostly about DK's and infinite bats), but I'm pretty sure people had a lot more fun PvP-ing in the original "blocking was OP" meta compared to the current "blocking is OP" meta.

People are pushing extremes because of the current state of the game. You have builds that can achieve things that are silly and absurd damage/healing and tank-wise and any combination of the three. If someone is doing obscene burst how can you counter? You heal or tank. If someone is outputting obscene healing how do you counter? You burst or sustain dps. If someone is obscenely tanky how do you counter? You patiently kill them...

ESO has pushed a meta of quick kills and burst for the last year and people have gotten used to it. Now when tanking in PvP is starting to become popular again people are confused as to why they cannot continue the high burst/low TTK meta ZOS pushed.

Tanks aren't really a problem right now...its the mindset of a lot of PvP-ers that has shifted from sustainable fights to quick kills.

Yeah.

Back in the day without CP players didn't have much sustain and the block builds generally wern't invincible 1v1, however their sustain increased the more players they fought at once (NB siphoning attacks, DK dynamic ult gen for sustain) which actually was a good thing balance wise as it countered zerging and made people stronger if they were outnumbered. The only 1v1 tank that comes to mind was that sheliza person who had malubeth, master sword and high stamina regen while blocking - but even they died to players 1v1 (even though they claimed to be unkillable).

Now days with CP and itemization, tanks have high sustain in 1v1 and don't benefit as much being beat on by more and more people (don't think it's worth the increase in incoming damage as you can sustain just fine with smaller amounts of people). Anyways the way tanky builds are right now just makes the game more zergy and less enjoyable in 1v1 senario's.

PenguinInACan

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

I'm a little confused...are we back to block builds are OP again? It's been what...2 years since "block builds" were meta? When holding block didn't drain stam etc people found a way to kill things. Sure balance wasn't perfect and people complained (mostly about DK's and infinite bats), but I'm pretty sure people had a lot more fun PvP-ing in the original "blocking was OP" meta compared to the current "blocking is OP" meta.

People are pushing extremes because of the current state of the game. You have builds that can achieve things that are silly and absurd damage/healing and tank-wise and any combination of the three. If someone is doing obscene burst how can you counter? You heal or tank. If someone is outputting obscene healing how do you counter? You burst or sustain dps. If someone is obscenely tanky how do you counter? You patiently kill them...

ESO has pushed a meta of quick kills and burst for the last year and people have gotten used to it. Now when tanking in PvP is starting to become popular again people are confused as to why they cannot continue the high burst/low TTK meta ZOS pushed.

Tanks aren't really a problem right now...its the mindset of a lot of PvP-ers that has shifted from sustainable fights to quick kills.

Yeah.

Back in the day without CP players didn't have much sustain and the block builds generally wern't invincible 1v1, however their sustain increased the more players they fought at once (NB siphoning attacks, DK dynamic ult gen for sustain) which actually was a good thing balance wise as it countered zerging and made people stronger if they were outnumbered. The only 1v1 tank that comes to mind was that sheliza person who had malubeth, master sword and high stamina regen while blocking - but even they died to players 1v1 (even though they claimed to be unkillable).

Now days with CP and itemization, tanks have high sustain in 1v1 and don't benefit as much being beat on by more and more people (don't think it's worth the increase in incoming damage as you can sustain just fine with smaller amounts of people). Anyways the way tanky builds are right now just makes the game more zergy and less enjoyable in 1v1 senario's.

That's the thing though...CP hasn't really changed the base game THAT much. They removed softcaps and introduced CP as a a way to "reintroduce" softcaps. People aren't that much more tanky than they were a at launch. I would much rather fight a current day hp regen tank than a launch-period mag dk..and comparatively the stats of both builds aren't that far off. Granted dynamic ult gen plays a role and the new sets augment a lot of things....but if you look at the base playstyles I believe we are slowly regressing back to the original ESO PvP playstyles (albeit with stam instead of mag).

NACtron

Rohaus wrote: »

Why do people insist on being able to kill tanks?

People just need to learn that in Cyrodiil you can just walk past them if they are a pure tank. They very low of a threat unless the noobs and pugs can't learn to let go.

Mojomonkeyman

Tanking right now is as impressive as being able to peel a banana.

There is about 5-6 very obvious set/ult/skill/cp combinations that allow any class to just walk right upfront solo into the enemy zerg and be unkillable for prolonged periods of time with very little talent needed.

In ideal PvP environment all roles should die equally fast, if not successfully performing actions which ensure their survival. The only real distinction is that a DPS role will take an offensive approach to achieve that through pressure, while a healer or tank role will use defensive maneuvers.

All roles should die fast if messing up and all roles should have to work equally hard to not die. There is no innate right to live long, just because of setup. Anything else would only incentivize players (the ones on the lower end of the talent/experience scale in particular) to always chose the tank route for safety reasons.

This fact then leads to everyone being a tank and noone dieing. A fight without losers (the ones dieing) or winners is a fight that never happened, it has no meaning, is boring and dull. The tank role, if not balanced VERY carefully, promotes that undesirable outcome. Good games therefore built up the tank role based on active defense, defense you have to work for.

The ease of being tanky is as much of a problem in eso as proc sets are (the easy way to achieve damage). It promotes terrible play and eliminates any educational process in regards to devloping your personal gaming skills.

AzuraKin

the problem is people dont wanna work for thier kills, they wanna pop a wb on a tank and 1 shot them no matter resist, impen, or block status.

KisoValley

Gothren wrote: »

how about 5k unresistable damage to those wearing shield breaker. how to counter cheese is more cheese. light attacks for the win!

Derra

Talcyndl wrote: »

PvP balance should not rely on the CP system. Some of us still play in Azuras.

Azura is fundamentally flawed and in my honest opinion was the wrong move to begin with. Azuras at this point should be scrapped and instead a system should be implemented where every player can spend the amount of the CP of the current cap (561 for now) when in a pvp campaign.

The flaw about having CP and non CP campaign is a devide in playerbase because both campaigntypes require fundamentally different gear/mundus and enchantment choices - making anyone not willing to pay (or farm) for two entire gear sets bound to one of the two campaign types.

I think at this point in time it´s a direct threat for continued "healthy" pvp to have the playerbase devided into two different types of campaigns - especially on off hours.


Furthermore azura directly complicates balancing and pvp development as your statement showcases. The devs ideally have to take into account three different scenarios when making balancing decisions: PvE, PvPcp, PvPnoncp.
I don´t think given the current state of the game that´s a good situation to be in.

Armitas

I think the current tank meta that we see is a reposnse to the roflproc proctatotation community.

You used to be able to go through block with a resto. I am not sure if you still can, if not it should be restored and given a 8% damage buff to blocking targets. This makes tanks still useful and requires a coordinated effort from a few players with restos to take down. Or the channel could reduce block mitigation while being channeled.

Talcyndl

Derra wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

PvP balance should not rely on the CP system. Some of us still play in Azuras.

Azura is fundamentally flawed and in my honest opinion was the wrong move to begin with. Azuras at this point should be scrapped and instead a system should be implemented where every player can spend the amount of the CP of the current cap (561 for now) when in a pvp campaign.

The flaw about having CP and non CP campaign is a devide in playerbase because both campaigntypes require fundamentally different gear/mundus and enchantment choices - making anyone not willing to pay (or farm) for two entire gear sets bound to one of the two campaign types.

I think at this point in time it´s a direct threat for continued "healthy" pvp to have the playerbase devided into two different types of campaigns - especially on off hours.

Furthermore azura directly complicates balancing and pvp development as your statement showcases. The devs ideally have to take into account three different scenarios when making balancing decisions: PvE, PvPcp, PvPnoncp.
I don´t think given the current state of the game that´s a good situation to be in.

Prior to the Proc sets, Azuras was a MUCH better balanced PvP experience. The lack of CP required resource management and more tactical combat. You actually run out of resources. You also had fewer broken builds (with the exception of a certain unkillable Templar Emp).

The issue atm is that the damage from the proc sets is much too high when you don't have the mitigation from CP. Literally every death recap includes significant proc damage.

While I agree that the divide between CP and non-CP campaigns makes balancing PvP harder, I think the actual CP system alone makes it almost as hard. If it was up to me I'd eliminate CP in PvP. Make the playing field more equal - obviously gear and consumables would still give an advantage, but I think the PvP would be more enjoyable.

Not that ZOS will ever do that after they have committed themselves to the CP system.

ssewallb14_ESO

I can't stop attacking that player who's build solely revolves around trolling people into attacking him.

ZoS please nerf.

Xsorus

Or...here is a thought...and please..do listen

How about we...I don't know...Fix the burst ability of these tank builds by changing things like Viper/Tremor Scales into say Dots instead..

That way..we fix the actual problem...Not just nerf *** because you don't like beating on tanks.

Laggus

Kartalin wrote: »

What's wrong with ignoring the tank until their friends are dead, then applying dots and light attacking until they are out of stamina?

Because their friends are also tanks

Edit: spelling

Derra

Talcyndl wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

PvP balance should not rely on the CP system. Some of us still play in Azuras.

Azura is fundamentally flawed and in my honest opinion was the wrong move to begin with. Azuras at this point should be scrapped and instead a system should be implemented where every player can spend the amount of the CP of the current cap (561 for now) when in a pvp campaign.

The flaw about having CP and non CP campaign is a devide in playerbase because both campaigntypes require fundamentally different gear/mundus and enchantment choices - making anyone not willing to pay (or farm) for two entire gear sets bound to one of the two campaign types.

I think at this point in time it´s a direct threat for continued "healthy" pvp to have the playerbase devided into two different types of campaigns - especially on off hours.

Furthermore azura directly complicates balancing and pvp development as your statement showcases. The devs ideally have to take into account three different scenarios when making balancing decisions: PvE, PvPcp, PvPnoncp.
I don´t think given the current state of the game that´s a good situation to be in.

Prior to the Proc sets, Azuras was a MUCH better balanced PvP experience. The lack of CP required resource management and more tactical combat. You actually run out of resources. You also had fewer broken builds (with the exception of a certain unkillable Templar Emp).

The issue atm is that the damage from the proc sets is much too high when you don't have the mitigation from CP. Literally every death recap includes significant proc damage.

While I agree that the divide between CP and non-CP campaigns makes balancing PvP harder, I think the actual CP system alone makes it almost as hard. If it was up to me I'd eliminate CP in PvP. Make the playing field more equal - obviously gear and consumables would still give an advantage, but I think the PvP would be more enjoyable.

Not that ZOS will ever do that after they have committed themselves to the CP system.

Your first statement is wrong - Azura did not exist prior to proccsets. In fact it created one of the worst gameplay experiences in terms of proccsets because people were able to utilize a proccset not affected by the CP system there while every defense needed to counter it was.
Azura is THE procccheese campaign - amplifying the problems by magnitudes since it was launched.

The only thing azura does in terms of resourcemanagement is force everyone to wear a handful of sets to be competetive. Which results in overall lower damage and higher TTK which leads to even more adds and zerging as it gets harder to run with smaller numbers in the process.
There are no sustain issues on azura. There are only bad builds.

Eliminating CP from pvp entirely at this point is not realistic at all. The games dmg, healing and most passive mechanics are balanced to work with the CP system (surgeheals, maelstrom resto being the most prominent examples).

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

Or...here is a thought...and please..do listen

How about we...I don't know...Fix the burst ability of these tank builds by changing things like Viper/Tremor Scales into say Dots instead..

That way..we fix the actual problem...Not just nerf *** because you don't like beating on tanks.

The main problem on tremorscale is the snare for most builds and in grp gameplay - not even the dmg.

Bandit1215

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Dots counter block builds so do some aoes

Do dots go through block again?

Derra

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Dots counter block builds so do some aoes

Do dots go through block again?

"Dots counter block"

I´m gonna tell that to our grps DK the next time he´s standing in front of a permablocking templar spamming purifying ritual negating 90% of the incoming dmg in the process while getting tickled with noodlewhips.

Or to the sorc that has 75% projectile dmg while being able to curse every 3.5 seconds which gets outhealed by literally everything (and is also purgeable) while not having access to any class targetted damage over time.

Xsorus

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Or...here is a thought...and please..do listen

How about we...I don't know...Fix the burst ability of these tank builds by changing things like Viper/Tremor Scales into say Dots instead..

That way..we fix the actual problem...Not just nerf *** because you don't like beating on tanks.

The main problem on tremorscale is the snare for most builds and in grp gameplay - not even the dmg.

You could actually make that argument and i'd probably agree with it..that snare is nasty.

Sugaroverdose

Armitas wrote: »

I think the current tank meta that we see is a reposnse to the roflproc proctatotation community.

You used to be able to go through block with a resto. I am not sure if you still can, if not it should be restored and given a 8% damage buff to blocking targets. This makes tanks still useful and requires a coordinated effort from a few players with restos to take down. Or the channel could reduce block mitigation while being channeled.

So every magicka build have boosted damage against blocking target without investments? Awesome idea, what tank should get in return then?

Derra wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Dots counter block builds so do some aoes

Do dots go through block again?

"Dots counter block"

I´m gonna tell that to our grps DK the next time he´s standing in front of a permablocking templar spamming purifying ritual negating 90% of the incoming dmg in the process while getting tickled with noodlewhips.

Or to the sorc that has 75% projectile dmg while being able to curse every 3.5 seconds which gets outhealed by literally everything (and is also purgeable) while not having access to any class targetted damage over time.

If magplar spam purifying (extended actually) ritual, then its good idea to keep pressure, it isn't cheap at all.

Derra

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

If magplar spam purifying (extended actually) ritual, then its good idea to keep pressure, it isn't cheap at all.

When thinking about the amount of dmg it prevents along with it´s other benefits (and taking into account that it´s only 10% more expensive than hardened ward) - i think spamming ritual is still a preeetty sweet deal.

White wabbit

Does shield breaker set still work as I'm bored in PvP so might go annoy some sorcs

Sugaroverdose

Derra wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

If magplar spam purifying (extended actually) ritual, then its good idea to keep pressure, it isn't cheap at all.

When thinking about the amount of dmg it prevents along with it´s other benefits (and taking into account that it´s only 10% more expensive than hardened ward) - i think spamming ritual is still a preeetty sweet deal.

It's last templar defence skill which was almost removed in DB so it should be viable, but does we talk about nerftemplars or about tactics?
Also if you meet heavy magplar in group - focus he's group first, he'll get out of magica insanely fast.

Armitas

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I think the current tank meta that we see is a reposnse to the roflproc proctatotation community.

You used to be able to go through block with a resto. I am not sure if you still can, if not it should be restored and given a 8% damage buff to blocking targets. This makes tanks still useful and requires a coordinated effort from a few players with restos to take down. Or the channel could reduce block mitigation while being channeled.

So every magicka build have boosted damage against blocking target without investments? Awesome idea, what tank should get in return then?

What do you imagine happening here? No matter how I imagine it I don't see the role ending because a resto staff does 8% more damage on a channel. If you weave the resto you immediately defeat the purpose of using the resto so you are dropping all weave damage to channel a resto staff.