Shield Breaker 2.0 (name is WIP)

Solariken

So after the proc sets are brought under control, what do you guys think about adding some counters to block builds in PvP that are not hard CC?

The obvious idea that @Wrobel would probably go for is a 5pc bonus like this:

(5 items) Damage dealt to blocking targets is increased by 5%. Light and Heavy attacks against blocking targets weaken their defenses, causing their block to become 5% less effective for 5 seconds. Adds 149 weapon and spell damage.

Another idea is to make the CP star "Shattering Blows" more appealing by applying its bonus damage to shielded targets AND blocking targets (non-stacking).

Another idea that I love (bias warning!) is to add 5/10% bonus damage to blocking targets in the Piercing Spear Templar passive (Aedric Spear). This fits the theme and makes logical sense.

Any other ideas? For the record, I think block/tank PvP builds are awesome! I just also think there should be a some reasonable counters out there.

susmitds

I would want something to make the star that increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities useful.

Solariken

susmitds wrote: »

I would want something to make the star that increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities useful.

@susmitds I totally agree that healing (and that CP passive) needs to be addressed, but that probably deserves an entirely separate discussion.

Delimber

I think a chance to stagger them with a heavy attack from a 2H would work.

Rohaus

Why do people insist on being able to kill tanks?

Solariken

Rohaus wrote: »

Why do people insist on being able to kill tanks?

Who says tanks should never die? ;P

In all seriousness, it's supposed to be a game of counterplay. For everything that is strong there should be something that is strong against it.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Solariken wrote: »

Another idea that I love (bias warning!) is to add 5/10% bonus damage to blocking targets in the Piercing Spear Templar passive (Aedric Spear). This fits the theme and makes logical sense.

You know that this passive already exists? Or do you want to buff it to do 20% additional damage against blocking targets?

Delimber

There doesn't seem to be a cap on damage out put but there is a cap on damage resistance, or has that changed?

As a tank most folks don't seem to have a hard time killing me but then I'm usually in a 1v5 or 1vZerg so...

olsborg

Solariken wrote: »

Another idea is to make the CP star "Shattering Blows" more appealing by applying its bonus damage to shielded targets AND blocking targets (non-stacking).

That is a very good idea.

Manoekin

Every class needs a CC that goes through block as initially intended in a long gone patch and later gone back on. These should be single target like fossilize and not fear. You should at least have to know who you are CCing when you use an ability that goes through block and dodge.

Solariken

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Another idea that I love (bias warning!) is to add 5/10% bonus damage to blocking targets in the Piercing Spear Templar passive (Aedric Spear). This fits the theme and makes logical sense.

You know that this passive already exists? Or do you want to buff it to do 20% additional damage against blocking targets?

Yes @lolo_01b16_ESO I meant to buff it. When you think about it, the current +10% damage against blocking targets is actually less than 5% because blocking halves your damage dealt to begin with.

Sallington

+dmg to blocking targets is a fantastic idea.

Sheuib

This is a bad idea for the simple fact that everyone can block. It isn't like some sort of special build just to be able to block or some specific class ability for blocking. Yes you can build a character to have better blocking potential than others but if you put something like this in it will basically bring the ones that build for blocking down to regular and destroy other builds that don't. Blocking is a basic defensive ability for everyone don't mess with it.

Kartalin

What's wrong with ignoring the tank until their friends are dead, then applying dots and light attacking until they are out of stamina?

tonemd

People already have a stamina regeneration penalty for blocking. I do not want to see just a damage modifier. Block should always reduce the amount of damage you take.

Perhaps a status effect to blocking targets like healing reduction. Or something fun like 5 light attacks against the same blocking target turns them into a rock, increasing the target's physical and spell resistance by 6000 but stunning the target for 10 seconds

GreenSoup2HoT

i like the idea to make befoul better.

Lucky28

Rohaus wrote: »

Why do people insist on being able to kill tanks?

Because like 93% of Cyrodiil are now tanks.

and because of sets like tremorscale and viper tanks are more of a threat than DPS!. it's just wrong.

umagon

Rohaus wrote: »

Why do people insist on being able to kill tanks?

Those players can't accept there is now a counter to their high burst damage/low defense builds; and tend refuse to adopt a different play style and build to counter tanks. They want a turnkey solution mainly because they become frustrated when they run into a situation where they can't defeat certain players.

The_Duke

Just because Zos has let proc sets run loose doesnt mean you need to mess with blocking. Lets see how they deal with proc sets first before we adjust a fundamental skill in the game.

Jamini

Unpopular three-point opinion incoming here

1. Tanks should be the natural counter to burst DPS

Tanks are, be design, supposed to be able to survive excessive amounts of damage and keep trucking. While doing so, they should also be able to output CC both soft and hard to disrupt DPS and, eventually run the DPS out of resources. Once this is done, they go on the offensive and win the fight.

Until the proc meta, this was problematic for tanks for a simple reason: most DPS can constantly CC-break. This prevents them from getting CCed, and makes tanks less effective at doing their main job.

2. Sustain (Heals and Dots) should be the natural counter to tanks

A tank's damage output should be relatively low. This means that a character with high sustain damage should be able to, eventually, wear them down. Sustain characters rely on constant pressure, mostly using CC to prevent their primary targets from dropping. Most sustain-specced characters should have some means of mitigating or completely negating healing.

Sustain DPS/heals is currently very out of favor, mostly due to a prevalence of burst sets, and a high lack of moves that can apply defile. Poisons, DW, certain nightblade builds, and healers all fall in this category. Right now most DoT builds are too easy to purge/block, and their users too fragile to stay up for any length of time.

3. Burst should be the natural counter to Sustain

Sustain builds deal loads of damage, but it takes time to apply it. Burst builds outpace sustain builds and quickly kill the target. Preventing them from reacting at all. Burst doesn't need any form of healing negation, but rather as much raw damage that can be packed into a single package.

Burst DPS is currently very popular in-game, due to a great deal of on-demand burst gear (viper's, tremorscale), much of which can also be coupled with a naturally tanky build/skill setup.

--

What does this mean?

1. Tanks are a strong counter-meta. Burst cannot instantly kill a tank, and they lack the means to pressure them. Unfortunately, tanks lack other tools they need to be effective outside of being a counter-build. Multiple tanks are still vulnerable to massed burst as well.
2. Sustain has very few tools in this meta, especially with burst being so strong. They are outclassed, and only really useful to counter the handful of tanks that are running to counter the mass of burst. Outside of healers (which do have a role in sustain) Sustain just doesn't have much going for it.
3. Burst is king currently, only coming across issues with the occasional skilled tank.

--
What can be done?

For us? Ultimately Nothing. Adapt to the burst>tank>everyone else meta, or die.

If I were to bother balancing PvP in ESO, I would look into certain "fundamental" mechanics that favor burst. Not all of these ideas are necessary!

1. As said multiple places, a global (1s?) cooldown on proc sets. Removing or utterly gutting those sets outright is not a healthy move, as tanks in particular do rely on them to actually contribute in damage. (burst and tank nerf)
2. Add more reliable counters to stealth. Most burst builds rely very, very heavily on stealth. There are only a handful of abilities that counter stealth before the first hit, and almost none of them are reliable or cost effective. Ideally these would be active abilities (getting hit off your horse should still be a death sentence) (burst nerf)
3. Increase the cost or decrease the duration of CC-break moves (I'm a fan of making them % based rather than a fixed number) and increase purge costs. Certain classes (true tanks, not proc tanks) rely heavily on CC, and many of their abilities are outright ignorable by the style of play they are intended to counter. (One especially damning ability is the DK pull. While useful, it gives the target several seconds of stun immunity, effectively making one of the strongest abilities in the dragon knight's toolbox useless) (CC tank buff, overall tank nerf. Sustain play-style buff)
4. Add more sources of defile, or buff the current sources that grant them. Reducing healing on your target, especially tanks, should be bread-and-butter for sustain play-styles. Magtemplars in particular can be maddening to play against without a reliable way to reduce their healing. (Sustain buff)
5. Look into animation canceling, as currently it's the main culprit behind the insane burst some classes can put out.

I'm certain the rest of you can think of other changes. But if you really want proc sets nerfed, at least look into why things are the way they are.

Sugaroverdose

Solariken wrote: »

So after the proc sets are brought under control, what do you guys think about adding some counters to block builds in PvP that are not hard CC?

The obvious idea that @Wrobel would probably go for is a 5pc bonus like this:

(5 items) Damage dealt to blocking targets is increased by 5%. Light and Heavy attacks against blocking targets weaken their defenses, causing their block to become 5% less effective for 5 seconds. Adds 149 weapon and spell damage.

Another idea is to make the CP star "Shattering Blows" more appealing by applying its bonus damage to shielded targets AND blocking targets (non-stacking).

Another idea that I love (bias warning!) is to add 5/10% bonus damage to blocking targets in the Piercing Spear Templar passive (Aedric Spear). This fits the theme and makes logical sense.

Any other ideas? For the record, I think block/tank PvP builds are awesome! I just also think there should be a some reasonable counters out there.

"My awesome rotation in prayforproc build won't work against blocking targets without 3 set instaproc, so make me OP cause i don't want to think how to counterpay blocking."

Manoekin wrote: »

Every class needs a CC that goes through block as initially intended in a long gone patch and later gone back on. These should be single target like fossilize and not fear. You should at least have to know who you are CCing when you use an ability that goes through block and dodge.

So, you don't know that every class DOES have CC which goes trough block?
Surprise:

Sorcerer: Rune Prison/Rune Cage
DK: Petrify/Fossilize/Shattering Rocks
Templar: Spear Shards/Luminous Shards
NB: Aspect Of Terror/Mass Hysteria/Agony/Prolonged Suffering/Malefic Wreath

Solariken

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

So after the proc sets are brought under control, what do you guys think about adding some counters to block builds in PvP that are not hard CC?

The obvious idea that @Wrobel would probably go for is a 5pc bonus like this:

(5 items) Damage dealt to blocking targets is increased by 5%. Light and Heavy attacks against blocking targets weaken their defenses, causing their block to become 5% less effective for 5 seconds. Adds 149 weapon and spell damage.

Another idea is to make the CP star "Shattering Blows" more appealing by applying its bonus damage to shielded targets AND blocking targets (non-stacking).

Another idea that I love (bias warning!) is to add 5/10% bonus damage to blocking targets in the Piercing Spear Templar passive (Aedric Spear). This fits the theme and makes logical sense.

Any other ideas? For the record, I think block/tank PvP builds are awesome! I just also think there should be a some reasonable counters out there.

"My awesome rotation in prayforproc build won't work against blocking targets without 3 set instaproc, so make me OP cause i don't want to think how to counterpay blocking."

"I run amok on the forum spewing piles of vapid text that bear no relevance to the topic at hand"

I run BR/Bloodspawn/Agility on my main despite this proc meta and do just fine. I also run a health recovery tank build on my Nightblade and surf the zergs with ease.

This is not a complaint thread, this is a discussion of balance and counterplay. Currently block-tank builds lack reasonable counterplay. Proc damage sets are a toxic anomaly that needs to be addressed especially because they allow tank builds access to too much burst damage - everyone except Wrobel agrees that being able to stack 5 skills'worth of damage in one button press is ridiculous, but that is a separate discussion.

Drummerx04

Rohaus wrote: »

Why do people insist on being able to kill tanks?

Because there are full raids of enemy players running around in balls with 70% or more tanky builds. Said tank balls can basically walk right up to an enemy keep, breech both layers of defense and capture both flags while absorbing absurd amounts of damage.

They lead to lengthy engagements which don't really accomplish much. I recall a 10+ minute engagement inside Brindle where AD just kitted around as a bunch of tanks and healers occasionally killing some DC who were too slow or lagged out to get out of the way while eating continuous siege fire, ults, etc. They didn't make a real push to take the keep, so they pretty much just floated around wasting everyone's time until they were dead. I'm not sure why anyone would consider that fun.

viper+tremorscale+reverb bash is a pretty broken combo. You can't readily burst down this tank, but if you are not really careful, he could pretty readily burst you down. So now we have a tank player to counter burst meta... while still using burst meta.

Essentially, 1-4 tanks isn't really a problem. They serve a good purpose of drawing fire, CCing, gathering a bunch of players up for a bomb... but when a large enemy group is primarily tanking builds, that's when it gets irritating.

Side note: The OP's suggestions were actually fairly balanced considering it was a 5 piece set ability and frankly probably wouldn't make much difference to a tank either way.

Sugaroverdose

Solariken wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

So after the proc sets are brought under control, what do you guys think about adding some counters to block builds in PvP that are not hard CC?

The obvious idea that @Wrobel would probably go for is a 5pc bonus like this:

(5 items) Damage dealt to blocking targets is increased by 5%. Light and Heavy attacks against blocking targets weaken their defenses, causing their block to become 5% less effective for 5 seconds. Adds 149 weapon and spell damage.

Another idea is to make the CP star "Shattering Blows" more appealing by applying its bonus damage to shielded targets AND blocking targets (non-stacking).

Another idea that I love (bias warning!) is to add 5/10% bonus damage to blocking targets in the Piercing Spear Templar passive (Aedric Spear). This fits the theme and makes logical sense.

Any other ideas? For the record, I think block/tank PvP builds are awesome! I just also think there should be a some reasonable counters out there.

"My awesome rotation in prayforproc build won't work against blocking targets without 3 set instaproc, so make me OP cause i don't want to think how to counterpay blocking."

"I run amok on the forum spewing piles of vapid text that bear no relevance to the topic at hand"

I run BR/Bloodspawn/Agility on my main despite this proc meta and do just fine. I also run a health recovery tank build on my Nightblade and surf the zergs with ease.

This is not a complaint thread, this is a discussion of balance and counterplay. Currently block-tank builds lack reasonable counterplay. Proc damage sets are a toxic anomaly that needs to be addressed especially because they allow tank builds access to too much burst damage - everyone except Wrobel agrees that being able to stack 5 skills'worth of damage in one button press is ridiculous, but that is a separate discussion.

Hard CC is counterplay for blocking, if your build does not have it - it's your decision, not game issue.
Making sets which goes through block is same cr*p as shieldbreaker or prayforproc - ruin already broken basic mechanics to make CoD fans happy.

Derra

The only thing problematic about block at this time is the added bonus against projectile attacks. Remove projectile block bonuses and blocking is largely fine.

WhiteMage

Neat ideas:

• A skill that is very weak but does massive damage to a blocking target.
• A skill that inverts a players block mitigation for the hit (SnB block mitigation drops to restoration staff levels, a restoration staff block mitigation is as high as a typical SnB's)
• A skill that stops a player from blocking to create a brief moment where they are vulnerable while they release and again press the block button
• Reduce effectiveness of skills used while blocking.
• An attack that hits you in the back cannot be blocked (so to kill a tank you must surround him or get him to show you his back

Manoekin

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

So after the proc sets are brought under control, what do you guys think about adding some counters to block builds in PvP that are not hard CC?

The obvious idea that @Wrobel would probably go for is a 5pc bonus like this:

(5 items) Damage dealt to blocking targets is increased by 5%. Light and Heavy attacks against blocking targets weaken their defenses, causing their block to become 5% less effective for 5 seconds. Adds 149 weapon and spell damage.

Another idea is to make the CP star "Shattering Blows" more appealing by applying its bonus damage to shielded targets AND blocking targets (non-stacking).

Another idea that I love (bias warning!) is to add 5/10% bonus damage to blocking targets in the Piercing Spear Templar passive (Aedric Spear). This fits the theme and makes logical sense.

Any other ideas? For the record, I think block/tank PvP builds are awesome! I just also think there should be a some reasonable counters out there.

"My awesome rotation in prayforproc build won't work against blocking targets without 3 set instaproc, so make me OP cause i don't want to think how to counterpay blocking."

Manoekin wrote: »

Every class needs a CC that goes through block as initially intended in a long gone patch and later gone back on. These should be single target like fossilize and not fear. You should at least have to know who you are CCing when you use an ability that goes through block and dodge.

So, you don't know that every class DOES have CC which goes trough block?
Surprise:

Sorcerer: Rune Prison/Rune Cage
DK: Petrify/Fossilize/Shattering Rocks
Templar: Spear Shards/Luminous Shards
NB: Aspect Of Terror/Mass Hysteria/Agony/Prolonged Suffering/Malefic Wreath

Ye sorry, I'm not going to spec an inferior morph of a skill that I can barely control who it effects let alone whether they will stay in the same spot in time for the two second animation to land. As well, fear is broken and fossilize only finds use in that it doesn't break immediately, completely negating the effect you're looking for in the skills listed. I would legit be upset at someone in my group giving enemies free CC immunity especially a player in a tank build. It's not the counter it was intended to be.

Sugaroverdose

WhiteMage wrote: »

Neat ideas:

• A skill that is very weak but does massive damage to a blocking target.
• A skill that inverts a players block mitigation for the hit (SnB block mitigation drops to restoration staff levels, a restoration staff block mitigation is as high as a typical SnB's)
• A skill that stops a player from blocking to create a brief moment where they are vulnerable while they release and again press the block button
• Reduce effectiveness of skills used while blocking.
• An attack that hits you in the back cannot be blocked (so to kill a tank you must surround him or get him to show you his back

You forgot something:

• Skill which makes roll dodging target to have chance to break their neck.
• Skill which makes shielding/healing target to have chance to misspell skill and open portal to oblivion and teleport half of character into coldharbour

Actually it's not that bad ideas that i suggested, but it's just stupid, if you see blocking player and you don't have counter - just switch target, game still have chance to not become "duck hunt"

Lexxypwns

Dots counter block builds so do some aoes

umagon

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

Why do people insist on being able to kill tanks?

Because there are full raids of enemy players running around in balls with 70% or more tanky builds. Said tank balls can basically walk right up to an enemy keep, breech both layers of defense and capture both flags while absorbing absurd amounts of damage.

They lead to lengthy engagements which don't really accomplish much. I recall a 10+ minute engagement inside Brindle where AD just kitted around as a bunch of tanks and healers occasionally killing some DC who were too slow or lagged out to get out of the way while eating continuous siege fire, ults, etc. They didn't make a real push to take the keep, so they pretty much just floated around wasting everyone's time until they were dead. I'm not sure why anyone would consider that fun.

viper+tremorscale+reverb bash is a pretty broken combo. You can't readily burst down this tank, but if you are not really careful, he could pretty readily burst you down. So now we have a tank player to counter burst meta... while still using burst meta.

Essentially, 1-4 tanks isn't really a problem. They serve a good purpose of drawing fire, CCing, gathering a bunch of players up for a bomb... but when a large enemy group is primarily tanking builds, that's when it gets irritating.

Side note: The OP's suggestions were actually fairly balanced considering it was a 5 piece set ability and frankly probably wouldn't make much difference to a tank either way.

The clustering issue would be resolved if the siege weapons would actually kill players preferably in one hit. But a base line value of 50% of total health and scaling to 80% when the number of players hit exceeds six would be a good start. ZOS already posted they are looking at solutions to the programed random occurrence stacking issue. So I don't think those types tanks will be around much longer.

Gothren

how about 5k unresistable damage to those wearing shield breaker. how to counter cheese is more cheese. light attacks for the win!