Why do these bad design choices even exist?

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Kamatsu

ESO currently caters to all players, especially casuals. It has mostly easy, solo friendly content. They realized they made a mistake with Craglorn and made it solo friendly in One Tamriel. The rest of the world is just like the Cadwell Gold areas were before the update, scaled to CP160. And that's even easier now, because people are up scaled to that, if they are not already CP160. The fact that World Bosses were made more difficult is an improvement, because before everybody did them just to put a marker on the map. Added loot has made them attractive. So multiple players team up to beat them. If they were left as easy as before, people would have just one-shotted them for the loot, moved on and left the other players waiting 10-15 until they respawned. This is exactly what happens now with delve and public dungon bosses and with dolmens, which are very easy. People struggle to make a hit on the mobs and claim XP, achievement and loot because they get killed so fast. IMO those should have been buffed as well.

Casual players can stick to: Main quest, Guild Quests (including repeatable ones), Alliance Zone quests, normal dungeons, normal trials, normal Maelstrom Arena, grouping for World Bosses, zerg style PvP on non-CP & non-vet campaigns (~95% of the game)
Hardcore players may want to progress to: Veteran Dungeons, Vetaran Trials, Veteran Maelstrom Arena, soloing World Bosses, small scale PvP on full CP campaigns (~5% of the game).

There are only 20 skill points locked behind group content (dungeons can still be completed in normal mode), and 50 locked behind PvP progression, 1 skill line locked behind group content (can still be unlocked with a couple of hundred of solo quests) and 2 skill lines locked behind PvP. By comparison, the other 300+ skill points are locked in solo quests, sky shards and Public Dungeon group events, which can be completed solo or with ad-hoc grouping by even the most unskilled players.

So you can stick just to easy content, completely avoid PvP, still fully develop your character. I've done just that on my alt. She has yet to complete any dungeon, even on normal mode, but she has most useful skill lines fully trained - undaunted is at 4 just from doing dailies and alliance war skills are at 2 just from doing the Cyrodiil tutorial - did it for the maneuvers so I can ride faster. She still wears her level 44 blue training gear because it still works, even with the enemies at CP160. Most times I don't even bother with food, and when I do it's the crusty bread I find all over the place. In brief, I've played her as casually as possible. And it's still fun. I do it to relax after a couple of hours of running harder content on my main, who collects 5-6 keys a day from doing vet HM dungeons. Eventually I will bring her into group content as well.

@Asardes you miss the point entirely. The point is that grindingly hard group content results in players leaving. Their not interested in 'sticking to easy content' and doing solo then leaving.

You focus on Hard content, you lose the majority of your playerbase. It's that simple. And quite frankly this game is actively driving away the audience that was largely why it succeeded, this game was the most casual friendly MMO on the market.

It's not now. The fact you think it is shows how disconnected you are from that audience, the ammount of tollerence for builds outside the meta in Dungeons let alone raids has dropped like a stone, because if your not the best you take ages to kill -anything-. One Tamriel was the end of the casual friendly MMO in respects to Endgame content.

Quit attempting to tell the casuals everything is fine. It's not, and you dont understand the problems they have with it. If your going to be an apologist, please figure out what your supposed to be apologizing -for-.

I would actually disagree with you. To me and many others what has killed the desire to do any of the dungeons or trials is not the slight increase in difficulty on some bosses but the bound loot. There is no point to repeatable content when there is no point to repeat it.

One thing that is true and remains to be true in all mmos, people will go where the rewards are. Look at the amount of people who spent the past couple weeks standing waiting for a boss to spawn.

starkerealm

AuldWolf wrote: »

Fix this. please. This really is a heartfelt plea. Don't be Champions Online 2: Failing Harder.

You mean the MMO where you could hilariously break the game so badly, it was possible to solo everything except NemCon? Including the dungeons?

Asardes

starkerealm wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

Fix this. please. This really is a heartfelt plea. Don't be Champions Online 2: Failing Harder.

You mean the MMO where you could hilariously break the game so badly, it was possible to solo everything except NemCon? Including the dungeons?

Some people on the forum be like:

"It's 2018. The Warrior HM has been just soloed by a naked hybrid build sorcerer spamming light attacks. Shehai Shatterer has become as common as Pact Hero."

starkerealm

Asardes wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

Fix this. please. This really is a heartfelt plea. Don't be Champions Online 2: Failing Harder.

You mean the MMO where you could hilariously break the game so badly, it was possible to solo everything except NemCon? Including the dungeons?

Some people on the forum be like:

"It's 2018. The Warrior HM has been just soloed by a naked hybrid build sorcerer spamming light attacks. Shehai Shatterer has become as common as Pact Hero."

No, seriously, with CO it's incredibly easy to get to a point where you're one shotting nearly everything.

Andohir

Zyrudin wrote: »

If a lone wolf personality joins a game labeled "multiplayer", unless all he wants to do in that field is to duel, he simply chose the wrong context, the wrong genre, to play. Note, however, that you can and are able to do much more alone in ESO than you are required to group up for. So even the lone wolf is catered for in ESO to a larger extent than other MMO's.

I suggest to extend the definition of Multiplayer to more than separated content beatable by groups only. Would ESO be less multiplayer without the dungeons or trials? What about all the other elements that require interactions like crafting, trading, events? There should be tough encounters just like world bosses too, I'd appreciate even more of them, but in the open world, not hiding in feigned, separated, socially locked and instanced areas. I totally understand the frustration about making a whole open world zone group-only. It feels disproportional and implausible, at least for an elder scrolls game. I consider online multiplayer roleplaying a gameplay experience that rewards grouping but does not necessarily require it. I also wouldn't assume an ingame lone wolf character to be played by an irl lone wolf personality, especially not in a rpg. It's one main attraction of a rpg to also be able to create and play as a lone wolf, or not if wished so.

newtinmpls

old_mufasa wrote: »

Sorry op this is a MMO..that means almost all content is group content...

I got a kick out of this.

Have you actually PLAYED this game?

Most of it is solo.

Spearshard

I think a really good middle ground would be difficulty scaling. The problem many have is that no one is around to lend a hand with world bosses and their difficulty has been ramped forcing you to group. If a sort of slider based on the number of players nearby changed the difficulty then people who group can have a challenging fight and players who are solo/ insufficient population can still beat the boss.

CossackHD

Number one priority should be world instance difficulty setting.
That thing alone will make the game a lot more appealing and I doubt it will be too hard to implement.
By the way, why should a Dolmen be solo-able while most world bosses aren't? 10/10 logic. You arrive at a freaking daedric portal that looks 20X times as dangerous as a world boss but it's 10x easier (literally 10 times lower HP on last dolmen boss compared to average world boss).
Basically, make "normal" and "veteran" modes for the world, let "veteran" mode have as hard world bosses as we have them right now, make dolmens and delves harder, because right now I can one-shot every average NPC from stealth and I kill delve bosses in 5-6 seconds before I can do full skill rotation. Alone. And make better quality loot /mats drop more often off mobs in "world hardmode", that's it.
As for normal mode for the world, nerf world bosses to how they were before OT and leave the rest be.
Difficulty setting can be in character choice menu (not in group menu) - setting in character screen is harder to miss and makes it easier to keep instance separation.
Extra difficult delves will be interesting for those who want to enjoy solo content in groups

Bouldercleave

CossackHD wrote: »

Number one priority should be world instance difficulty setting.
That thing alone will make the game a lot more appealing and I doubt it will be too hard to implement.
By the way, why should a Dolmen be solo-able while most world bosses aren't? 10/10 logic. You arrive at a freaking daedric portal that looks 20X times as dangerous as a world boss but it's 10x easier (literally 10 times lower HP on last dolmen boss compared to average world boss).
Basically, make "normal" and "veteran" modes for the world, let "veteran" mode have as hard world bosses as we have them right now, make dolmens and delves harder, because right now I can one-shot every average NPC from stealth and I kill delve bosses in 5-6 seconds before I can do full skill rotation. Alone. And make better quality loot /mats drop more often off mobs in "world hardmode", that's it.
As for normal mode for the world, nerf world bosses to how they were before OT and leave the rest be.
Difficulty setting can be in character choice menu (not in group menu) - setting in character screen is harder to miss and makes it easier to keep instance separation.
Extra difficult delves will be interesting for those who want to enjoy solo content in groups

I like this idea and would like to add a "SOLO" version of dungeons with hard but soloable bosses and inferior gear drops to the group versions.

I love the social interactions of an MMO, but honestly lothe grouping. As such, I have never seen many of the great dungeons in the game. A solo version for the content would be great for me, even without the highest end gear drops.

Astanphaeus

I find myself in agreement with zero of what OP has said.

LadyNalcarya

Kamatsu wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Kamatsu
So much text and you forgot one "little" thing... 1T difficulty boost wasnt an actual buff, and definetely wasnt made to cater to hardcore players, they've just scaled everything to vr16.
The game was through some significant changes in balance after 1.6 (namely, softcap removal and champion system introduction) and that's what made world pve so easy. It wasnt designed that way, it became like this after the power creep.
And in softcap era stuff was actually more difficult than in vr16+ patches. Just because it was vr12 content that was designed for softcapped characters with no champion point boost. And yes, even though some dungeon mobs used to be marked as "vr16", they havent changed at all since vr12-14.
About catering to "hardcore" players... This game doesnt cater to them at all. All we have is 4 trials, and ok, maybe a few dlc dungeons. All of those have easily accesible normal modes for casual players, so that they wont miss the story and cant obtain the gear.
This game is as casual-friendly as it can get. And it has an absurd amount of solo content, almost all dlcs consist of solo content. There's just a few challenging instances, and even they have "casual" versions.
So while I agree there should be balance, I dont think your points are relevant to the current state of the game.
Where's this "wah wah wah it's an MMO, MMO's are group focused, MMO's are hard wah wah wah" you're talking about? Certainly not in this 99% solo casual game.

I never directly mentioned anything about ESO as I was not talking about ESO, and whether or not it does/doesn't cater to hardcore/casual since One Tamriel. I was addressing all the poster's who keep spewing forth the "ESO is a MMO, is should all be group content, it should all be hard"... as these are the same people who generally push MMO companies to exclude casual players, to make everything in the game harder, to make more content be forced grouping, etc.

Just look at the OP's concerns - that there is now more forced grouping and that players are more forced to play content they dislike. Now go look at the "ESO is a MMO" replies.... then read my post again. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about - they are found throughout any thread/discussion which discusses being able to solo the game or play casually... and they are always spewing the same stuff out, that it's an MMO, that it should be group-only, etc.

I'll have to take your word regarding the softcap and cp changes, as I have only finally gotten to cp 160+ after OT hit, and only played speriodically previously. I personally never had any problems with questing, or doing world-bosses as a non-maxed character... but again,. that was prior to OT. But I never knew what it was like at end-game as I had/have never gotten there.

You are right in that the game caters mainly to casual's with very little for 'hardcore'. However, what the OP is worried about is that ZOS will pay attention to those clamoring to make everything hard and challenging and do that... thus chasing the casual's away and killing the game in the process. And again, if you scroll up and read a lot of the replies to the OP in this very thread and you'll see exactly what I mean by "wah wah it's an mmo". Go search the forums for any other thread complaining about difficult world-bosses and such... you'll see the same "wah wah it's an mmo" brigade carrying on and saying the game as a whole should be harder.

I wasn't really addressing ESO specifically, but the attitude I see from a small vocal group that tries to shut down any discussion of making anything in a game easier and/or more accessable weith the cries that it's an MMO and thus should be forced grouping with hard content and if ppl want to play casually and/or solo then they should play a single-player game.

As for ESO - I personally wish ZOS would add in some more dungeons with interesting mechanics for those looking for challenges (with both normal easier modes for ppl like me, with harder vet & beyond modes for those who really want a challenge). While that doesn't personally appeal to me, I also don't want those who like harder content to never get anything to wet their appetite. On the other hand, I don't want ZOS to try and turn everything harder and less casual/solo friendly... I've experienced that in other MMO's, and it never goes well for them.

"Spewing"
"Wah wah wah"
It doesnt look like you're looking for a constructive dialogue, honestly.
The thing is... I would agree with OP if the game was actually becoming unfriendly to casual players. We all understand that they are the majority of playerbase etc. But that's absolutely not the case. If anything, they've made the game more solo-friendly in 1T by adding normal modes to veteran dungeons (and those of them that have mechanics that prevent soloing, can be 2manned) and soloable Craglorn (I personally loved that addition, previously I had to skip Craglorn because it was almost impossible to find a group for questing). And again, outdated content =/= solo friendly. It was a huge issue actually, no one cared about low vr zones, but now you can see people everywhere. I think thats awesome. There also was an issue with outleveling your questing zones, when your characters would level up too fast and half of quests in the area were too low lvl for them. Now there's at least a motivation to finish those starter zone's quests and low vr zones, and it will be actually rewarding xp and loot wise (so casual/solo players wont be lagging behind that much in terms of champion points and gear)
And yeah, this is an mmo, and it should have some group content and some challenging content. After all, community is an important part of any mmo, and building an mmo game strictly for solo players would be a huge failure, because as a solo rpg TESO would never be as good as actual solo games, since there are technical limitations in mmos, and instancing everything wouldnt be possible with the current server capacity (and it wouldnt be convenient for roleplayers or just friends who want play together, but also would like to choose different story paths).

P.S. And its really annoying how some people refuse to see bigger picture than just "wah wah wah I cant solo that boss!".

Doctordarkspawn

Asardes wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Yet again you ignore what I actually said, and understand what you want. As I clearly stated in my post, there is tiered content for all players to enjoy. Don't want to run a "meta build"? It's totally fine. Just stick to normal dungeons and trials, or simply overland content. The main challenge in normal trials is not wasting time looting heavy sacks. It would have really been a problem for unskilled players if all content was brutally hard. For example if all game would be as hard as Craglorn just after the release. Let's consider the DLCs

1) IC - mixed PvE and PvP with 2 new dungeons. Both the overland mobs and the dungeons were nerfed a short time after release. nICP and nWGT are easy and doable by players not even at vet levels. Players in overland content get the boosts that come with PvP like battle spirit and various campaign bonuses. Bosses require grouping, but PvP in general requires grouping. And it's by far the hardest of the DLCs overall.

2) Orsinium - only PvE, with a huge questing area, solo quest line and only a few world bosses that actually require a group. Introduced an arena that can be completed both in normal and veteran mode. Veteran mode is indeed hard, but represents a very small part of the content.

3) Thieves Guild - a new PvE only area, solo quest line, bosses require group, includes a new trial, more difficult than the others, but still a small part of the content overall.

4) Dark Brotherhood - a PvE only are, solo quest line, bosses require group, but no instanced solo or group content.

5) Shadows of the Hist - an pretty underwhelming DLC by it's scope that only introduces 2 new dungeons. Just like the ones in IC, only the veteran modes are actually difficult, and the hard modes for the bosses are significantly more difficult. If you want just the skill points and the 5 piece gear sets you can just do the normal modes.

So 3/5 DLCs have mostly the same mix as the game overall - largely solo questing areas, with some group content here and there, 1 is mainly PvP and 1 is exclusively group content. So the game does not cater exclusively to the "elite" as you keep whining on every post, it does in fact cater mostly to the "casual" player. If every difficult content was nerfed into the ground, there will be no point in actually playing well, in striving for improvement. People will just complete the content once, then get bored and leave, just like they did with the alliance zones, Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn before everything was scaled. If someone actually whined that he can't beat vMA/vSO/vHRC/vAA/vDSA spamming wrecking blow for 20 minutes at everything there's no reason to nerf those itself. He just needs to stick to normal version. The devs put most of their effort in doing the base version for those - modeling, mechanics, enemies - then a bit more effort in adding a few new mechanics, increasing the health and damage of the enemies for the veteran and difficult modes. So again, they cooked the meal for the "casuals" and just put some "elitist" sauce beside it for those who like it spicy. You come and say I shouldn't have spicy food.

And casual players don't leave because they are dismayed by the difficulty of the content, but because they are simply casual, meaning the game doesn't really matter much for them, they may play other games, and move on simply because another one has just been released.

*Shakes head*

You have nothing of value to say. Your comments about casuals are...simply insane. We've seen, time and again the dip in playerbases. We have evidence. Yet, casuals leave because 'they are simply casual'. No, they play until the game isn't fun anymore which is most of the time, directly influenced by the direction a game takes, you...I dont even have -words- for what you are.

I dont ignore what you say, it's just most of it is guar-poo, untrue, based on assumptions and, here is the big one, -misses the point-. That point being, dungeons were never ment and should never have been this hardcore haven that Trials have been. Those of us who were not raiders yet still wanted something to do allways went to vet dungeons. Now? It is a choice between 'recruit meta' or 'play normal'. Believe it or not, some of us actually liked Normal pre one Tamriel. They may not have been shadow of the hist dungeons, but they didn't need to be. They were hard enough to where you couldn't do them while asleep, despite what I believe you, and many others will say, and the difficulty and resistances were high enough to disavow blatent idiocy and ignorance, yet still keep some weird builds around.

You. Miss. The. Point. As you allways do. It's not about the legions of solo content we cant repeat. It's about endgame, and the happy ballance between 'things that die in five seconds' and 'actually fun'. But you dont see it. You'll never see it. You dont want to, and I cant make you. You do not understand fundementally what casuals want. You do not even understand who these people are. I doubt you even consider them human. That is the only logical conclusion to explain how...disconnected and ignorant you are of a demographic you apparently hate.

Until you figure that out, we have nothing to discuss, you are arguing for people who dont exist and when you can tell your imagination from the people who exist then we'll talk.

TLDR, for the desperate last attempt to get through to you: Casual is not solo. Casual is not solo. CASUAL, IS NOT SOLO. Casual, is group content ment to be done with pugs for a decent experience and have a few laughs.

Doctordarkspawn

starkerealm wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

Fix this. please. This really is a heartfelt plea. Don't be Champions Online 2: Failing Harder.

You mean the MMO where you could hilariously break the game so badly, it was possible to solo everything except NemCon? Including the dungeons?

Yep. That MMO. Aaaaand oddly enough people -liked- that MMO and reviled the attempts at 'hard' content it provided because it A, wasn't what they were there for, B was done -extremely- poorly in a way that if you werrent sub, you were just -screwed- by default (For reasons that would take too long to explain), and C was done expecting systems that had not worked in years to function.

Y'know. pretty much this game.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Yet again you ignore what I actually said, and understand what you want. As I clearly stated in my post, there is tiered content for all players to enjoy. Don't want to run a "meta build"? It's totally fine. Just stick to normal dungeons and trials, or simply overland content. The main challenge in normal trials is not wasting time looting heavy sacks. It would have really been a problem for unskilled players if all content was brutally hard. For example if all game would be as hard as Craglorn just after the release. Let's consider the DLCs

1) IC - mixed PvE and PvP with 2 new dungeons. Both the overland mobs and the dungeons were nerfed a short time after release. nICP and nWGT are easy and doable by players not even at vet levels. Players in overland content get the boosts that come with PvP like battle spirit and various campaign bonuses. Bosses require grouping, but PvP in general requires grouping. And it's by far the hardest of the DLCs overall.

2) Orsinium - only PvE, with a huge questing area, solo quest line and only a few world bosses that actually require a group. Introduced an arena that can be completed both in normal and veteran mode. Veteran mode is indeed hard, but represents a very small part of the content.

3) Thieves Guild - a new PvE only area, solo quest line, bosses require group, includes a new trial, more difficult than the others, but still a small part of the content overall.

4) Dark Brotherhood - a PvE only are, solo quest line, bosses require group, but no instanced solo or group content.

5) Shadows of the Hist - an pretty underwhelming DLC by it's scope that only introduces 2 new dungeons. Just like the ones in IC, only the veteran modes are actually difficult, and the hard modes for the bosses are significantly more difficult. If you want just the skill points and the 5 piece gear sets you can just do the normal modes.

So 3/5 DLCs have mostly the same mix as the game overall - largely solo questing areas, with some group content here and there, 1 is mainly PvP and 1 is exclusively group content. So the game does not cater exclusively to the "elite" as you keep whining on every post, it does in fact cater mostly to the "casual" player. If every difficult content was nerfed into the ground, there will be no point in actually playing well, in striving for improvement. People will just complete the content once, then get bored and leave, just like they did with the alliance zones, Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn before everything was scaled. If someone actually whined that he can't beat vMA/vSO/vHRC/vAA/vDSA spamming wrecking blow for 20 minutes at everything there's no reason to nerf those itself. He just needs to stick to normal version. The devs put most of their effort in doing the base version for those - modeling, mechanics, enemies - then a bit more effort in adding a few new mechanics, increasing the health and damage of the enemies for the veteran and difficult modes. So again, they cooked the meal for the "casuals" and just put some "elitist" sauce beside it for those who like it spicy. You come and say I shouldn't have spicy food.

And casual players don't leave because they are dismayed by the difficulty of the content, but because they are simply casual, meaning the game doesn't really matter much for them, they may play other games, and move on simply because another one has just been released.

*Shakes head*

You have nothing of value to say. Your comments about casuals are...simply insane. We've seen, time and again the dip in playerbases. We have evidence. Yet, casuals leave because 'they are simply casual'. No, they play until the game isn't fun anymore which is most of the time, directly influenced by the direction a game takes, you...I dont even have -words- for what you are.

I dont ignore what you say, it's just most of it is ***.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul. Please. Stop flooding Zeni's ears with the same hardcore rhetoric that has killed so many games before this.

Wow, that's some serious claims.
Is it just your assumptions or do you happen to have have any proofs?
You know, casuals arent a hivemind.

Doctordarkspawn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Yet again you ignore what I actually said, and understand what you want. As I clearly stated in my post, there is tiered content for all players to enjoy. Don't want to run a "meta build"? It's totally fine. Just stick to normal dungeons and trials, or simply overland content. The main challenge in normal trials is not wasting time looting heavy sacks. It would have really been a problem for unskilled players if all content was brutally hard. For example if all game would be as hard as Craglorn just after the release. Let's consider the DLCs

1) IC - mixed PvE and PvP with 2 new dungeons. Both the overland mobs and the dungeons were nerfed a short time after release. nICP and nWGT are easy and doable by players not even at vet levels. Players in overland content get the boosts that come with PvP like battle spirit and various campaign bonuses. Bosses require grouping, but PvP in general requires grouping. And it's by far the hardest of the DLCs overall.

2) Orsinium - only PvE, with a huge questing area, solo quest line and only a few world bosses that actually require a group. Introduced an arena that can be completed both in normal and veteran mode. Veteran mode is indeed hard, but represents a very small part of the content.

3) Thieves Guild - a new PvE only area, solo quest line, bosses require group, includes a new trial, more difficult than the others, but still a small part of the content overall.

4) Dark Brotherhood - a PvE only are, solo quest line, bosses require group, but no instanced solo or group content.

5) Shadows of the Hist - an pretty underwhelming DLC by it's scope that only introduces 2 new dungeons. Just like the ones in IC, only the veteran modes are actually difficult, and the hard modes for the bosses are significantly more difficult. If you want just the skill points and the 5 piece gear sets you can just do the normal modes.

So 3/5 DLCs have mostly the same mix as the game overall - largely solo questing areas, with some group content here and there, 1 is mainly PvP and 1 is exclusively group content. So the game does not cater exclusively to the "elite" as you keep whining on every post, it does in fact cater mostly to the "casual" player. If every difficult content was nerfed into the ground, there will be no point in actually playing well, in striving for improvement. People will just complete the content once, then get bored and leave, just like they did with the alliance zones, Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn before everything was scaled. If someone actually whined that he can't beat vMA/vSO/vHRC/vAA/vDSA spamming wrecking blow for 20 minutes at everything there's no reason to nerf those itself. He just needs to stick to normal version. The devs put most of their effort in doing the base version for those - modeling, mechanics, enemies - then a bit more effort in adding a few new mechanics, increasing the health and damage of the enemies for the veteran and difficult modes. So again, they cooked the meal for the "casuals" and just put some "elitist" sauce beside it for those who like it spicy. You come and say I shouldn't have spicy food.

And casual players don't leave because they are dismayed by the difficulty of the content, but because they are simply casual, meaning the game doesn't really matter much for them, they may play other games, and move on simply because another one has just been released.

*Shakes head*

You have nothing of value to say. Your comments about casuals are...simply insane. We've seen, time and again the dip in playerbases. We have evidence. Yet, casuals leave because 'they are simply casual'. No, they play until the game isn't fun anymore which is most of the time, directly influenced by the direction a game takes, you...I dont even have -words- for what you are.

I dont ignore what you say, it's just most of it is ***.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul. Please. Stop flooding Zeni's ears with the same hardcore rhetoric that has killed so many games before this.

Wow, that's some serious claims.
Is it just your assumptions or do you happen to have have any proofs?
You know, casuals arent a hivemind.

For proof of the marked decline and pattern MMO's share over going full on hardmode, there is a post with many examples earlier in the thread including Guildwars, Archage, WoW. I saw it first hand with Champions.

The rest, is the assumptions based on the people I know who -do- run endgame content but have no desire to run raids. They were happy with the dungeon difficulty back then. Yet people are treating this like it's an anomoly. Seriously, it's not.

Casuals are not a hivemind, but none of you seem to understand them on a fundemental level enough to tell -what- they are. Are we just aliens? Am I an alien? I feel like an Alien after watching this thread.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Yet again you ignore what I actually said, and understand what you want. As I clearly stated in my post, there is tiered content for all players to enjoy. Don't want to run a "meta build"? It's totally fine. Just stick to normal dungeons and trials, or simply overland content. The main challenge in normal trials is not wasting time looting heavy sacks. It would have really been a problem for unskilled players if all content was brutally hard. For example if all game would be as hard as Craglorn just after the release. Let's consider the DLCs

1) IC - mixed PvE and PvP with 2 new dungeons. Both the overland mobs and the dungeons were nerfed a short time after release. nICP and nWGT are easy and doable by players not even at vet levels. Players in overland content get the boosts that come with PvP like battle spirit and various campaign bonuses. Bosses require grouping, but PvP in general requires grouping. And it's by far the hardest of the DLCs overall.

2) Orsinium - only PvE, with a huge questing area, solo quest line and only a few world bosses that actually require a group. Introduced an arena that can be completed both in normal and veteran mode. Veteran mode is indeed hard, but represents a very small part of the content.

3) Thieves Guild - a new PvE only area, solo quest line, bosses require group, includes a new trial, more difficult than the others, but still a small part of the content overall.

4) Dark Brotherhood - a PvE only are, solo quest line, bosses require group, but no instanced solo or group content.

5) Shadows of the Hist - an pretty underwhelming DLC by it's scope that only introduces 2 new dungeons. Just like the ones in IC, only the veteran modes are actually difficult, and the hard modes for the bosses are significantly more difficult. If you want just the skill points and the 5 piece gear sets you can just do the normal modes.

So 3/5 DLCs have mostly the same mix as the game overall - largely solo questing areas, with some group content here and there, 1 is mainly PvP and 1 is exclusively group content. So the game does not cater exclusively to the "elite" as you keep whining on every post, it does in fact cater mostly to the "casual" player. If every difficult content was nerfed into the ground, there will be no point in actually playing well, in striving for improvement. People will just complete the content once, then get bored and leave, just like they did with the alliance zones, Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn before everything was scaled. If someone actually whined that he can't beat vMA/vSO/vHRC/vAA/vDSA spamming wrecking blow for 20 minutes at everything there's no reason to nerf those itself. He just needs to stick to normal version. The devs put most of their effort in doing the base version for those - modeling, mechanics, enemies - then a bit more effort in adding a few new mechanics, increasing the health and damage of the enemies for the veteran and difficult modes. So again, they cooked the meal for the "casuals" and just put some "elitist" sauce beside it for those who like it spicy. You come and say I shouldn't have spicy food.

And casual players don't leave because they are dismayed by the difficulty of the content, but because they are simply casual, meaning the game doesn't really matter much for them, they may play other games, and move on simply because another one has just been released.

*Shakes head*

You have nothing of value to say. Your comments about casuals are...simply insane. We've seen, time and again the dip in playerbases. We have evidence. Yet, casuals leave because 'they are simply casual'. No, they play until the game isn't fun anymore which is most of the time, directly influenced by the direction a game takes, you...I dont even have -words- for what you are.

I dont ignore what you say, it's just most of it is ***.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul. Please. Stop flooding Zeni's ears with the same hardcore rhetoric that has killed so many games before this.

Wow, that's some serious claims.
Is it just your assumptions or do you happen to have have any proofs?
You know, casuals arent a hivemind.

For proof of the marked decline and pattern MMO's share over going full on hardmode, there is a post with many examples earlier in the thread including Guildwars, Archage, WoW. I saw it first hand with Champions.

The rest, is the assumptions based on the people I know who -do- run endgame content but have no desire to run raids. They were happy with the dungeon difficulty back then. Yet people are treating this like it's an anomoly. Seriously, it's not.

Where's that "focusing on hardmodes etc"?
Just.. Where?
In a game where ALL content has easy versions? No way.
In a game where 99% of the content consists of solo quests? No way.
In a game where most of dlcs were casual questing-based? Really?

Doctordarkspawn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Yet again you ignore what I actually said, and understand what you want. As I clearly stated in my post, there is tiered content for all players to enjoy. Don't want to run a "meta build"? It's totally fine. Just stick to normal dungeons and trials, or simply overland content. The main challenge in normal trials is not wasting time looting heavy sacks. It would have really been a problem for unskilled players if all content was brutally hard. For example if all game would be as hard as Craglorn just after the release. Let's consider the DLCs

1) IC - mixed PvE and PvP with 2 new dungeons. Both the overland mobs and the dungeons were nerfed a short time after release. nICP and nWGT are easy and doable by players not even at vet levels. Players in overland content get the boosts that come with PvP like battle spirit and various campaign bonuses. Bosses require grouping, but PvP in general requires grouping. And it's by far the hardest of the DLCs overall.

2) Orsinium - only PvE, with a huge questing area, solo quest line and only a few world bosses that actually require a group. Introduced an arena that can be completed both in normal and veteran mode. Veteran mode is indeed hard, but represents a very small part of the content.

3) Thieves Guild - a new PvE only area, solo quest line, bosses require group, includes a new trial, more difficult than the others, but still a small part of the content overall.

4) Dark Brotherhood - a PvE only are, solo quest line, bosses require group, but no instanced solo or group content.

5) Shadows of the Hist - an pretty underwhelming DLC by it's scope that only introduces 2 new dungeons. Just like the ones in IC, only the veteran modes are actually difficult, and the hard modes for the bosses are significantly more difficult. If you want just the skill points and the 5 piece gear sets you can just do the normal modes.

So 3/5 DLCs have mostly the same mix as the game overall - largely solo questing areas, with some group content here and there, 1 is mainly PvP and 1 is exclusively group content. So the game does not cater exclusively to the "elite" as you keep whining on every post, it does in fact cater mostly to the "casual" player. If every difficult content was nerfed into the ground, there will be no point in actually playing well, in striving for improvement. People will just complete the content once, then get bored and leave, just like they did with the alliance zones, Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn before everything was scaled. If someone actually whined that he can't beat vMA/vSO/vHRC/vAA/vDSA spamming wrecking blow for 20 minutes at everything there's no reason to nerf those itself. He just needs to stick to normal version. The devs put most of their effort in doing the base version for those - modeling, mechanics, enemies - then a bit more effort in adding a few new mechanics, increasing the health and damage of the enemies for the veteran and difficult modes. So again, they cooked the meal for the "casuals" and just put some "elitist" sauce beside it for those who like it spicy. You come and say I shouldn't have spicy food.

And casual players don't leave because they are dismayed by the difficulty of the content, but because they are simply casual, meaning the game doesn't really matter much for them, they may play other games, and move on simply because another one has just been released.

*Shakes head*

You have nothing of value to say. Your comments about casuals are...simply insane. We've seen, time and again the dip in playerbases. We have evidence. Yet, casuals leave because 'they are simply casual'. No, they play until the game isn't fun anymore which is most of the time, directly influenced by the direction a game takes, you...I dont even have -words- for what you are.

I dont ignore what you say, it's just most of it is ***.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul. Please. Stop flooding Zeni's ears with the same hardcore rhetoric that has killed so many games before this.

Wow, that's some serious claims.
Is it just your assumptions or do you happen to have have any proofs?
You know, casuals arent a hivemind.

For proof of the marked decline and pattern MMO's share over going full on hardmode, there is a post with many examples earlier in the thread including Guildwars, Archage, WoW. I saw it first hand with Champions.

The rest, is the assumptions based on the people I know who -do- run endgame content but have no desire to run raids. They were happy with the dungeon difficulty back then. Yet people are treating this like it's an anomoly. Seriously, it's not.

Where's that "focusing on hardmodes etc"?
Just.. Where?
In a game where ALL content has easy versions? No way.
In a game where 99% of the content consists of solo quests? No way.
In a game where most of dlcs were casual questing-based? Really?

*Points at Maw. Points at Maelstrom. Points at Shadows of the Hist.*

There, there, and there, any serious content built as repeatable endgame in the past year has been for the hardcore crowd. CASUAL IS NOT SOLOQUESTING YOU DENSE BUGGER. HELLO! MCFLY!

If you dont get it then there is either a language barrier or I really just am an alien and I speak a different language. Normal mode isn't what we want, what we want is a ballance between difficulty and enjoyment. Light challenge. The *** is so hard to comprehend about this? There is a difference between ultimate challenge and no challenge at all, HAPPY MEDIUMS EXIST.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Yet again you ignore what I actually said, and understand what you want. As I clearly stated in my post, there is tiered content for all players to enjoy. Don't want to run a "meta build"? It's totally fine. Just stick to normal dungeons and trials, or simply overland content. The main challenge in normal trials is not wasting time looting heavy sacks. It would have really been a problem for unskilled players if all content was brutally hard. For example if all game would be as hard as Craglorn just after the release. Let's consider the DLCs

1) IC - mixed PvE and PvP with 2 new dungeons. Both the overland mobs and the dungeons were nerfed a short time after release. nICP and nWGT are easy and doable by players not even at vet levels. Players in overland content get the boosts that come with PvP like battle spirit and various campaign bonuses. Bosses require grouping, but PvP in general requires grouping. And it's by far the hardest of the DLCs overall.

2) Orsinium - only PvE, with a huge questing area, solo quest line and only a few world bosses that actually require a group. Introduced an arena that can be completed both in normal and veteran mode. Veteran mode is indeed hard, but represents a very small part of the content.

3) Thieves Guild - a new PvE only area, solo quest line, bosses require group, includes a new trial, more difficult than the others, but still a small part of the content overall.

4) Dark Brotherhood - a PvE only are, solo quest line, bosses require group, but no instanced solo or group content.

5) Shadows of the Hist - an pretty underwhelming DLC by it's scope that only introduces 2 new dungeons. Just like the ones in IC, only the veteran modes are actually difficult, and the hard modes for the bosses are significantly more difficult. If you want just the skill points and the 5 piece gear sets you can just do the normal modes.

So 3/5 DLCs have mostly the same mix as the game overall - largely solo questing areas, with some group content here and there, 1 is mainly PvP and 1 is exclusively group content. So the game does not cater exclusively to the "elite" as you keep whining on every post, it does in fact cater mostly to the "casual" player. If every difficult content was nerfed into the ground, there will be no point in actually playing well, in striving for improvement. People will just complete the content once, then get bored and leave, just like they did with the alliance zones, Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn before everything was scaled. If someone actually whined that he can't beat vMA/vSO/vHRC/vAA/vDSA spamming wrecking blow for 20 minutes at everything there's no reason to nerf those itself. He just needs to stick to normal version. The devs put most of their effort in doing the base version for those - modeling, mechanics, enemies - then a bit more effort in adding a few new mechanics, increasing the health and damage of the enemies for the veteran and difficult modes. So again, they cooked the meal for the "casuals" and just put some "elitist" sauce beside it for those who like it spicy. You come and say I shouldn't have spicy food.

And casual players don't leave because they are dismayed by the difficulty of the content, but because they are simply casual, meaning the game doesn't really matter much for them, they may play other games, and move on simply because another one has just been released.

*Shakes head*

You have nothing of value to say. Your comments about casuals are...simply insane. We've seen, time and again the dip in playerbases. We have evidence. Yet, casuals leave because 'they are simply casual'. No, they play until the game isn't fun anymore which is most of the time, directly influenced by the direction a game takes, you...I dont even have -words- for what you are.

I dont ignore what you say, it's just most of it is ***.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul. Please. Stop flooding Zeni's ears with the same hardcore rhetoric that has killed so many games before this.

Wow, that's some serious claims.
Is it just your assumptions or do you happen to have have any proofs?
You know, casuals arent a hivemind.

For proof of the marked decline and pattern MMO's share over going full on hardmode, there is a post with many examples earlier in the thread including Guildwars, Archage, WoW. I saw it first hand with Champions.

The rest, is the assumptions based on the people I know who -do- run endgame content but have no desire to run raids. They were happy with the dungeon difficulty back then. Yet people are treating this like it's an anomoly. Seriously, it's not.

Where's that "focusing on hardmodes etc"?
Just.. Where?
In a game where ALL content has easy versions? No way.
In a game where 99% of the content consists of solo quests? No way.
In a game where most of dlcs were casual questing-based? Really?

*Points at Maw. Points at Maelstrom. Points at Shadows of the Hist.*

There, there, and there, any serious content built as repeatable endgame in the past year has been for the hardcore crowd. CASUAL IS NOT SOLOQUESTING YOU DENSE BUGGER. HELLO! MCFLY!

Maw: Has a normal mode, all the valuable sets are avilable in it. Also dont forget that Maw is a small fracture of casual and solo-friendly TG dlc.
Maelstorm: has an easy mode, which doesnt drop weapons, but that off-bar staff that improves your dps by 2k is hardly worth 100+ hours of farming. A lot of people that can speedrun it still dont have the "perfect" weapons, and crafted ones are still better than "imperfect" (maybe except duals, but I doubt that a player that cant finish vet would bother with a rotation that actully makes these weapons better than crafted ones). Also dont forget that MA is just a small part of the biggest solo questing zone so far. And lets not forget that a lot of people who can farm/speedrun it only did it for weapons and hate vMA in general.
SotH: both dungeons have easy modes that give the same sets and skillpoints, as well as the same story.

OMG so hardcore much wow.

Doctordarkspawn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Yet again you ignore what I actually said, and understand what you want. As I clearly stated in my post, there is tiered content for all players to enjoy. Don't want to run a "meta build"? It's totally fine. Just stick to normal dungeons and trials, or simply overland content. The main challenge in normal trials is not wasting time looting heavy sacks. It would have really been a problem for unskilled players if all content was brutally hard. For example if all game would be as hard as Craglorn just after the release. Let's consider the DLCs

1) IC - mixed PvE and PvP with 2 new dungeons. Both the overland mobs and the dungeons were nerfed a short time after release. nICP and nWGT are easy and doable by players not even at vet levels. Players in overland content get the boosts that come with PvP like battle spirit and various campaign bonuses. Bosses require grouping, but PvP in general requires grouping. And it's by far the hardest of the DLCs overall.

2) Orsinium - only PvE, with a huge questing area, solo quest line and only a few world bosses that actually require a group. Introduced an arena that can be completed both in normal and veteran mode. Veteran mode is indeed hard, but represents a very small part of the content.

3) Thieves Guild - a new PvE only area, solo quest line, bosses require group, includes a new trial, more difficult than the others, but still a small part of the content overall.

4) Dark Brotherhood - a PvE only are, solo quest line, bosses require group, but no instanced solo or group content.

5) Shadows of the Hist - an pretty underwhelming DLC by it's scope that only introduces 2 new dungeons. Just like the ones in IC, only the veteran modes are actually difficult, and the hard modes for the bosses are significantly more difficult. If you want just the skill points and the 5 piece gear sets you can just do the normal modes.

So 3/5 DLCs have mostly the same mix as the game overall - largely solo questing areas, with some group content here and there, 1 is mainly PvP and 1 is exclusively group content. So the game does not cater exclusively to the "elite" as you keep whining on every post, it does in fact cater mostly to the "casual" player. If every difficult content was nerfed into the ground, there will be no point in actually playing well, in striving for improvement. People will just complete the content once, then get bored and leave, just like they did with the alliance zones, Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn before everything was scaled. If someone actually whined that he can't beat vMA/vSO/vHRC/vAA/vDSA spamming wrecking blow for 20 minutes at everything there's no reason to nerf those itself. He just needs to stick to normal version. The devs put most of their effort in doing the base version for those - modeling, mechanics, enemies - then a bit more effort in adding a few new mechanics, increasing the health and damage of the enemies for the veteran and difficult modes. So again, they cooked the meal for the "casuals" and just put some "elitist" sauce beside it for those who like it spicy. You come and say I shouldn't have spicy food.

And casual players don't leave because they are dismayed by the difficulty of the content, but because they are simply casual, meaning the game doesn't really matter much for them, they may play other games, and move on simply because another one has just been released.

*Shakes head*

You have nothing of value to say. Your comments about casuals are...simply insane. We've seen, time and again the dip in playerbases. We have evidence. Yet, casuals leave because 'they are simply casual'. No, they play until the game isn't fun anymore which is most of the time, directly influenced by the direction a game takes, you...I dont even have -words- for what you are.

I dont ignore what you say, it's just most of it is ***.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul. Please. Stop flooding Zeni's ears with the same hardcore rhetoric that has killed so many games before this.

Wow, that's some serious claims.
Is it just your assumptions or do you happen to have have any proofs?
You know, casuals arent a hivemind.

For proof of the marked decline and pattern MMO's share over going full on hardmode, there is a post with many examples earlier in the thread including Guildwars, Archage, WoW. I saw it first hand with Champions.

The rest, is the assumptions based on the people I know who -do- run endgame content but have no desire to run raids. They were happy with the dungeon difficulty back then. Yet people are treating this like it's an anomoly. Seriously, it's not.

Where's that "focusing on hardmodes etc"?
Just.. Where?
In a game where ALL content has easy versions? No way.
In a game where 99% of the content consists of solo quests? No way.
In a game where most of dlcs were casual questing-based? Really?

*Points at Maw. Points at Maelstrom. Points at Shadows of the Hist.*

There, there, and there, any serious content built as repeatable endgame in the past year has been for the hardcore crowd. CASUAL IS NOT SOLOQUESTING YOU DENSE BUGGER. HELLO! MCFLY!

Maw: Has a normal mode, all the valuable sets are avilable in it. Also dont forget that Maw is a small fracture of casual and solo-friendly TG dlc.
Maelstorm: has an easy mode, which doesnt drop weapons, but that off-bar staff that improves your dps by 2k is hardly worth 100+ hours of farming. A lot of people that can speedrun it still dont have the "perfect" weapons, and crafted ones are still better than "imperfect" (maybe except duals, but I doubt that a player that cant finish vet would bother with a rotation that actully makes these weapons better than crafted ones). Also dont forget that MA is just a small part of the biggest solo questing zone so far.
SotH: both dungeons have easy modes that give the same sets and skillpoints, as well as the same story.

OMG so hardcore much wow.

What we have here, is a failure to communicate. Or rather, trying to communicate ideas to you makes me want to commit genocide.

Goodbye. When you are ready to consider a worldview where opposing opinions, preferences, philosophies, conclusions on existing data actually exist? Call me.

Doctordarkspawn

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Kamatsu

ESO currently caters to all players, especially casuals. It has mostly easy, solo friendly content. They realized they made a mistake with Craglorn and made it solo friendly in One Tamriel. The rest of the world is just like the Cadwell Gold areas were before the update, scaled to CP160. And that's even easier now, because people are up scaled to that, if they are not already CP160. The fact that World Bosses were made more difficult is an improvement, because before everybody did them just to put a marker on the map. Added loot has made them attractive. So multiple players team up to beat them. If they were left as easy as before, people would have just one-shotted them for the loot, moved on and left the other players waiting 10-15 until they respawned. This is exactly what happens now with delve and public dungon bosses and with dolmens, which are very easy. People struggle to make a hit on the mobs and claim XP, achievement and loot because they get killed so fast. IMO those should have been buffed as well.

Casual players can stick to: Main quest, Guild Quests (including repeatable ones), Alliance Zone quests, normal dungeons, normal trials, normal Maelstrom Arena, grouping for World Bosses, zerg style PvP on non-CP & non-vet campaigns (~95% of the game)
Hardcore players may want to progress to: Veteran Dungeons, Vetaran Trials, Veteran Maelstrom Arena, soloing World Bosses, small scale PvP on full CP campaigns (~5% of the game).

There are only 20 skill points locked behind group content (dungeons can still be completed in normal mode), and 50 locked behind PvP progression, 1 skill line locked behind group content (can still be unlocked with a couple of hundred of solo quests) and 2 skill lines locked behind PvP. By comparison, the other 300+ skill points are locked in solo quests, sky shards and Public Dungeon group events, which can be completed solo or with ad-hoc grouping by even the most unskilled players.

So you can stick just to easy content, completely avoid PvP, still fully develop your character. I've done just that on my alt. She has yet to complete any dungeon, even on normal mode, but she has most useful skill lines fully trained - undaunted is at 4 just from doing dailies and alliance war skills are at 2 just from doing the Cyrodiil tutorial - did it for the maneuvers so I can ride faster. She still wears her level 44 blue training gear because it still works, even with the enemies at CP160. Most times I don't even bother with food, and when I do it's the crusty bread I find all over the place. In brief, I've played her as casually as possible. And it's still fun. I do it to relax after a couple of hours of running harder content on my main, who collects 5-6 keys a day from doing vet HM dungeons. Eventually I will bring her into group content as well.

@Asardes you miss the point entirely. The point is that grindingly hard group content results in players leaving. Their not interested in 'sticking to easy content' and doing solo then leaving.

You focus on Hard content, you lose the majority of your playerbase. It's that simple. And quite frankly this game is actively driving away the audience that was largely why it succeeded, this game was the most casual friendly MMO on the market.

It's not now. The fact you think it is shows how disconnected you are from that audience, the ammount of tollerence for builds outside the meta in Dungeons let alone raids has dropped like a stone, because if your not the best you take ages to kill -anything-. One Tamriel was the end of the casual friendly MMO in respects to Endgame content.

Quit attempting to tell the casuals everything is fine. It's not, and you dont understand the problems they have with it. If your going to be an apologist, please figure out what your supposed to be apologizing -for-.

I would actually disagree with you. To me and many others what has killed the desire to do any of the dungeons or trials is not the slight increase in difficulty on some bosses but the bound loot. There is no point to repeatable content when there is no point to repeat it.

One thing that is true and remains to be true in all mmos, people will go where the rewards are. Look at the amount of people who spent the past couple weeks standing waiting for a boss to spawn.

That's a valid reason. Like, I dont -get- much the BOP craze ZOS got struck with. S'weird man. S'like they dont even -know what their playerbase wants- or something.

SHADOW2KK

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Yet again you ignore what I actually said, and understand what you want. As I clearly stated in my post, there is tiered content for all players to enjoy. Don't want to run a "meta build"? It's totally fine. Just stick to normal dungeons and trials, or simply overland content. The main challenge in normal trials is not wasting time looting heavy sacks. It would have really been a problem for unskilled players if all content was brutally hard. For example if all game would be as hard as Craglorn just after the release. Let's consider the DLCs

1) IC - mixed PvE and PvP with 2 new dungeons. Both the overland mobs and the dungeons were nerfed a short time after release. nICP and nWGT are easy and doable by players not even at vet levels. Players in overland content get the boosts that come with PvP like battle spirit and various campaign bonuses. Bosses require grouping, but PvP in general requires grouping. And it's by far the hardest of the DLCs overall.

2) Orsinium - only PvE, with a huge questing area, solo quest line and only a few world bosses that actually require a group. Introduced an arena that can be completed both in normal and veteran mode. Veteran mode is indeed hard, but represents a very small part of the content.

3) Thieves Guild - a new PvE only area, solo quest line, bosses require group, includes a new trial, more difficult than the others, but still a small part of the content overall.

4) Dark Brotherhood - a PvE only are, solo quest line, bosses require group, but no instanced solo or group content.

5) Shadows of the Hist - an pretty underwhelming DLC by it's scope that only introduces 2 new dungeons. Just like the ones in IC, only the veteran modes are actually difficult, and the hard modes for the bosses are significantly more difficult. If you want just the skill points and the 5 piece gear sets you can just do the normal modes.

So 3/5 DLCs have mostly the same mix as the game overall - largely solo questing areas, with some group content here and there, 1 is mainly PvP and 1 is exclusively group content. So the game does not cater exclusively to the "elite" as you keep whining on every post, it does in fact cater mostly to the "casual" player. If every difficult content was nerfed into the ground, there will be no point in actually playing well, in striving for improvement. People will just complete the content once, then get bored and leave, just like they did with the alliance zones, Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn before everything was scaled. If someone actually whined that he can't beat vMA/vSO/vHRC/vAA/vDSA spamming wrecking blow for 20 minutes at everything there's no reason to nerf those itself. He just needs to stick to normal version. The devs put most of their effort in doing the base version for those - modeling, mechanics, enemies - then a bit more effort in adding a few new mechanics, increasing the health and damage of the enemies for the veteran and difficult modes. So again, they cooked the meal for the "casuals" and just put some "elitist" sauce beside it for those who like it spicy. You come and say I shouldn't have spicy food.

And casual players don't leave because they are dismayed by the difficulty of the content, but because they are simply casual, meaning the game doesn't really matter much for them, they may play other games, and move on simply because another one has just been released.

*Shakes head*

You have nothing of value to say. Your comments about casuals are...simply insane. We've seen, time and again the dip in playerbases. We have evidence. Yet, casuals leave because 'they are simply casual'. No, they play until the game isn't fun anymore which is most of the time, directly influenced by the direction a game takes, you...I dont even have -words- for what you are.

I dont ignore what you say, it's just most of it is ***.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul. Please. Stop flooding Zeni's ears with the same hardcore rhetoric that has killed so many games before this.

Wow, that's some serious claims.
Is it just your assumptions or do you happen to have have any proofs?
You know, casuals arent a hivemind.

For proof of the marked decline and pattern MMO's share over going full on hardmode, there is a post with many examples earlier in the thread including Guildwars, Archage, WoW. I saw it first hand with Champions.

The rest, is the assumptions based on the people I know who -do- run endgame content but have no desire to run raids. They were happy with the dungeon difficulty back then. Yet people are treating this like it's an anomoly. Seriously, it's not.

Where's that "focusing on hardmodes etc"?
Just.. Where?
In a game where ALL content has easy versions? No way.
In a game where 99% of the content consists of solo quests? No way.
In a game where most of dlcs were casual questing-based? Really?

*Points at Maw. Points at Maelstrom. Points at Shadows of the Hist.*

There, there, and there, any serious content built as repeatable endgame in the past year has been for the hardcore crowd. CASUAL IS NOT SOLOQUESTING YOU DENSE BUGGER. HELLO! MCFLY!

Maw: Has a normal mode, all the valuable sets are avilable in it. Also dont forget that Maw is a small fracture of casual and solo-friendly TG dlc.
Maelstorm: has an easy mode, which doesnt drop weapons, but that off-bar staff that improves your dps by 2k is hardly worth 100+ hours of farming. A lot of people that can speedrun it still dont have the "perfect" weapons, and crafted ones are still better than "imperfect" (maybe except duals, but I doubt that a player that cant finish vet would bother with a rotation that actully makes these weapons better than crafted ones). Also dont forget that MA is just a small part of the biggest solo questing zone so far.
SotH: both dungeons have easy modes that give the same sets and skillpoints, as well as the same story.

OMG so hardcore much wow.

What we have here, is a failure to communicate. Or rather, trying to communicate ideas to you makes me want to commit genocide.

Goodbye. When you are ready to consider a worldview where opposing opinions, preferences, philosophies, conclusions on existing data actually exist? Call me.

Maybe you could follow what you are trying to spew.

End of the day, it is a game, you do not like, or feel it is going somewhere you do not like, then leave.

No one will care.

How people play the game has nothing to do with you, you got your opinon, we got ours.

I have literally lost count of how many oh the game is dying or the sky is falling threads I have seen, yet the game still continues.

So hows that for data that is actually proven, i.e the game is going strong.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Yet again you ignore what I actually said, and understand what you want. As I clearly stated in my post, there is tiered content for all players to enjoy. Don't want to run a "meta build"? It's totally fine. Just stick to normal dungeons and trials, or simply overland content. The main challenge in normal trials is not wasting time looting heavy sacks. It would have really been a problem for unskilled players if all content was brutally hard. For example if all game would be as hard as Craglorn just after the release. Let's consider the DLCs

1) IC - mixed PvE and PvP with 2 new dungeons. Both the overland mobs and the dungeons were nerfed a short time after release. nICP and nWGT are easy and doable by players not even at vet levels. Players in overland content get the boosts that come with PvP like battle spirit and various campaign bonuses. Bosses require grouping, but PvP in general requires grouping. And it's by far the hardest of the DLCs overall.

2) Orsinium - only PvE, with a huge questing area, solo quest line and only a few world bosses that actually require a group. Introduced an arena that can be completed both in normal and veteran mode. Veteran mode is indeed hard, but represents a very small part of the content.

3) Thieves Guild - a new PvE only area, solo quest line, bosses require group, includes a new trial, more difficult than the others, but still a small part of the content overall.

4) Dark Brotherhood - a PvE only are, solo quest line, bosses require group, but no instanced solo or group content.

5) Shadows of the Hist - an pretty underwhelming DLC by it's scope that only introduces 2 new dungeons. Just like the ones in IC, only the veteran modes are actually difficult, and the hard modes for the bosses are significantly more difficult. If you want just the skill points and the 5 piece gear sets you can just do the normal modes.

So 3/5 DLCs have mostly the same mix as the game overall - largely solo questing areas, with some group content here and there, 1 is mainly PvP and 1 is exclusively group content. So the game does not cater exclusively to the "elite" as you keep whining on every post, it does in fact cater mostly to the "casual" player. If every difficult content was nerfed into the ground, there will be no point in actually playing well, in striving for improvement. People will just complete the content once, then get bored and leave, just like they did with the alliance zones, Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn before everything was scaled. If someone actually whined that he can't beat vMA/vSO/vHRC/vAA/vDSA spamming wrecking blow for 20 minutes at everything there's no reason to nerf those itself. He just needs to stick to normal version. The devs put most of their effort in doing the base version for those - modeling, mechanics, enemies - then a bit more effort in adding a few new mechanics, increasing the health and damage of the enemies for the veteran and difficult modes. So again, they cooked the meal for the "casuals" and just put some "elitist" sauce beside it for those who like it spicy. You come and say I shouldn't have spicy food.

And casual players don't leave because they are dismayed by the difficulty of the content, but because they are simply casual, meaning the game doesn't really matter much for them, they may play other games, and move on simply because another one has just been released.

*Shakes head*

You have nothing of value to say. Your comments about casuals are...simply insane. We've seen, time and again the dip in playerbases. We have evidence. Yet, casuals leave because 'they are simply casual'. No, they play until the game isn't fun anymore which is most of the time, directly influenced by the direction a game takes, you...I dont even have -words- for what you are.

I dont ignore what you say, it's just most of it is ***.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul. Please. Stop flooding Zeni's ears with the same hardcore rhetoric that has killed so many games before this.

Wow, that's some serious claims.
Is it just your assumptions or do you happen to have have any proofs?
You know, casuals arent a hivemind.

For proof of the marked decline and pattern MMO's share over going full on hardmode, there is a post with many examples earlier in the thread including Guildwars, Archage, WoW. I saw it first hand with Champions.

The rest, is the assumptions based on the people I know who -do- run endgame content but have no desire to run raids. They were happy with the dungeon difficulty back then. Yet people are treating this like it's an anomoly. Seriously, it's not.

Where's that "focusing on hardmodes etc"?
Just.. Where?
In a game where ALL content has easy versions? No way.
In a game where 99% of the content consists of solo quests? No way.
In a game where most of dlcs were casual questing-based? Really?

*Points at Maw. Points at Maelstrom. Points at Shadows of the Hist.*

There, there, and there, any serious content built as repeatable endgame in the past year has been for the hardcore crowd. CASUAL IS NOT SOLOQUESTING YOU DENSE BUGGER. HELLO! MCFLY!

Maw: Has a normal mode, all the valuable sets are avilable in it. Also dont forget that Maw is a small fracture of casual and solo-friendly TG dlc.
Maelstorm: has an easy mode, which doesnt drop weapons, but that off-bar staff that improves your dps by 2k is hardly worth 100+ hours of farming. A lot of people that can speedrun it still dont have the "perfect" weapons, and crafted ones are still better than "imperfect" (maybe except duals, but I doubt that a player that cant finish vet would bother with a rotation that actully makes these weapons better than crafted ones). Also dont forget that MA is just a small part of the biggest solo questing zone so far.
SotH: both dungeons have easy modes that give the same sets and skillpoints, as well as the same story.

OMG so hardcore much wow.

What we have here, is a failure to communicate. Or rather, trying to communicate ideas to you makes me want to commit genocide.

Goodbye. When you are ready to consider a worldview where opposing opinions, preferences, philosophies, conclusions on existing data actually exist? Call me.

Has no arguments.
...
"Im too cool to talk to plebs like you!"

Ok.

WhitePawPrints

I am glad that some legitimate discussion made it to this thread. I wish a mod like @ZOS_DaryaK would clean it up a bit. A bit of a flame fest here at the end of the thread, and obvious trolling at the beginning of it.

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

I have literally lost count of how many oh the game is dying or the sky is falling threads I have seen, yet the game still continues.

So hows that for data that is actually proven, i.e the game is going strong.

I would argue that some of these threads "predicting the sky is falling" helped bring about the changes that were implemented in One Tamriel. I am referring to the changes primarily with Craglorn, and the threads that were posted around its release.

---

Forced grouping is something that I was heavily opposed to, and that was in the form of Craglorn. I am also opposed to the forced solo content (main/guild quests). These quests are so linear that they're incredibly boring after doing them just once.

One Tamriel was a great step forward for removing forced grouping, which I am very pleased with. Perfect example is that I have done Craglorn's main quest line for the first time because of One Tamriel, and I have been playing since launch. Last night I did Frostmire Keep and Vaults of Mandess (dungeons) for the first time because I can finally play them with my friends, regardless of their level/faction.

Reading the discussion on this thread made me realize that there is actually a lack of group content. I never thought much of it before because I have only done each trial once (for completion), but I have to agree that we need more trials! Buff those dolmens too! I have been wanting that since the nerf on the Vet zones.

Trials with pug groups though... I think we can all admit that they're frustrating, and is the reason why I have only done the trials once. Solo and casual players typically only pug, so I would merely suggest that third version be added, that is pug friendly. I would think if they nerfed or changed the wipe mechanics on some bosses, then that would encourage solo players to at least try to join a pug.

I do not think that there needs to be a divide between solo/casual players to group/hardcore players. Group content can be added that is also friendly to solo players.

alexkdd99

bellanca6561n wrote: »

No need to beat up on the op.

ESO, from day one, has suffered from being neither fish nor fowl.

It was merrily moving along as an online game project when Skyrim hit, HUGE, forcing development down its soup sandwich road.

That is what happens when you attempt to speak for others. As far as I know op was not selected to be the casuals spokesman.

Now to op.
Don't like playing with others? Why are you playing a multiplayer game????

You don't want changes in game for a set group of people but then go on writing book about how they need to cater the game how you want it.

I really can not stand these threads where people get on their box and pretend like they have some supernatural ability to tell the future, you don't.

As others have said maybe mmo's aren't for you if you don't like playing with other people. I personally like most of the changes that have been made.

Until you can prove all that you have stated please refrain from attempting to speak for the majority of eso community because you don't.

Darkestnght

The best way to avoid grouping is learning to do World Bosses and Vet Undaunted by yourself. I have done it and if I can do it other can to. PvP Vigor is very easy to get, if you like you can just hang out inside keeps that are getting attacked, you AP will eventually go up. I do not like to group and have just done some things the hard way but it is doable.

Asardes

My first experience in trials was basically with a PuG, people from a trade guild asked me if I can come as tank for farm runs. We managed just fine although I received maybe 10 lines in text chat telling me what to do. Did nSO, nHRC and nAA within ~90 minutes, and people fooled around quite a bit, gathering heavy sacks and jumping from teleporter to teleporter. I died 0 times in total, and half way to the 2nd trial even got the achievement for trials healer because in some battles I had so much stamina sustain I could pop ingenous + vigor every 10 seconds or so. If that's "hard core content that caters only to elitists" I really don't know what's "casual content" anymore. "Hardcore" people may actually be able to 4 man or even solo some of those normal trials. So yes, normal trials are totally PuG-able using only text chat. They could even put them in GF.

Zyrudin

It is outright disappointing that it seems to be impossible to hold a discussion about any subject nowadays, without automatically polarizing and inflaming the viewpoints...

LadyNalcarya

Zyrudin wrote: »

It is outright disappointing that it seems to be impossible to hold a discussion about any subject nowadays, without automatically polarizing and inflaming the viewpoints...

The thread wasnt started as a constructive discussion to begin with...

WhitePawPrints

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

It is outright disappointing that it seems to be impossible to hold a discussion about any subject nowadays, without automatically polarizing and inflaming the viewpoints...

The thread wasnt started as a constructive discussion to begin with...

The thread started out as an opinion shared by the poster. Reflecting off of that opinion in either agreement or disagreement provides constructive discussion.

Do not excuse inflammatory behavior.

Asardes

Last night I just PuG-ed nMoL. It was pretty smooth, except the part with the blue and white bosses, where we wiped once. I got the mechanic the 2nd time and beat it. All with just text chat. Pretty casual actually. I will need more practice there before I even attempt the vet, but it doesn't look impossible.