Why do these bad design choices even exist?

Bryanonymous

I like group content. I really just don't like the forced roles.

idk

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

OP isn't replying. I doubt he really thinks this way and is probably getting some laughs.

Or off crying in a corner because of the alleged toxic community

Toxic elitist community. Lol

SHADOW2KK

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

OP isn't replying. I doubt he really thinks this way and is probably getting some laughs.

Or off crying in a corner because of the alleged toxic community

Toxic elitist community. Lol

GraniteDevil

To be fair there IS a toxic, elitist community. The flip side of that is that it's not representative of the overall ESO community.

I don't mind grouped content but it is kinda irritating that some of the Craglorn story missions require a group. It's a problem because I don't have friends who play and my guild mates are usually doing trials or crazy-ass dungeons that I'm not cut out for.

DurzoBlint13

this IS an MMO. If you want solo play go buy Skyrim. World bosses can be solo'd. There are only a handful of dungeons that can not be solo'd. The best weapons in the game are "locked" behind solo play. With all of the new over-world sets available now there are plenty of gear options if you do not want to do group content. So....what exactly are you complaining about OP?

STEVIL

I am primarily a solo player.
Most of my minute percent time spent grouping was either group with someone to give them free bitr ot both ssme plsce same time same task so click F for xp.

Several chars unlocked taunt maybe from a few solo runs, dsily delves, etc.

Did not fret loss of vigor. Plenty of self-heal buried in stamina lines for solo.

Tons of solo content so not fret the group stuff. Its cool. Not all the game is my cup of prune juice but most is.

So, disagree with OP.
Also disagree with dont group play another game either.

Loralai_907

I have solo'd almost the entire game. Its very hard for me to find people to regularly play with for a few reasons, one of which is the hours I play.

I have grouped up for some world bosses, dolmens, public dungeons, and a couple of group dungeons. Everything else I have done on my own.

I know it is a bit different post 1T though.

Solariken

Thelon wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

One Tamriel's world bosses change tells me that you're going in the wrong direction, now. You're misguided and you believe that this will actually reap you greater profits. It won't. Down this road lies ruin. You'll lose everything.

Fear Mongering has reached Rank IV

AuldWolf wrote: »

Allow any number of people to play any of the content. You'll have more players, a happier playerbase, and whilst you may lose 30~ players who'll be annoyed about their privilege, you'll gain 30,000 more.

AuldWolf wrote: »

Never listen to the hardcore players

AuldWolf wrote: »

By having world bosses require a group, or a specific build, you're getting a reputation for upholding antiquated MMO standards.

AuldWolf wrote: »

From 'the outside' ESO still looks far too much like a traditional MMO and still has too much in common with the likes of Wildstar.

AuldWolf wrote: »

ESO looks a bit too much like an old man, trying to be hip and cool with his singing, dancing, and dad humour at times.

AuldWolf wrote: »

All of your money comes from your casual audience, whom you are spurning.

@Thelon Damn dude, your meme/gif collection really IS yuge.

Also OP, not sure if serious... Sounds like there are better game options out there for you if that's how you really feel.

BlackguardBob

AuldWolf wrote: »

I regularly question them.

Forced grouping: Don't do it. You'll lose players and alienate people. Allow any number of people to play any of the content. You'll have more players, a happier playerbase, and whilst you may lose 30~ players who'll be annoyed about their privilege, you'll gain 30,000 more. Forced grouping is one of the things I've heard people talk of as the reason they don't play ESO. They don't like it. Most modern thinking gamers don't. ESO is looking antiquated with it. Socialising doesn't mean forced grouping. Socialising, for most, is roleplaying. When most people are questing, they'll do it solo or in a group of 2-3 max.

Pseudo-forced Grouping: World bosses, in this case. Why? You have an instanced world, so why not allow people to pick difficulty for world zones? You can have anything ranging from casual (for the vast majority) to HYPER-L33T for the fifty or so people who'd actually want that. By having world bosses require a group, or a specific build, you're getting a reputation for upholding antiquated MMO standards.

Forcing Players to Play Content They Dislike: You have certain kinds of abilities (PvP's good heal, the Undaunted magicka taunt) that have absolutely no valid alternatives whatsoever, thus forcing people to play content they won't enjoy. The undaunted thing could be fixed by moving Inner Fire to rank 1 or 2 (I believe 2 can be achieved with This One's on Me), but the PvP heal really needs a valid alternative.

Encouraging Competitive Behaviour Everywhere: This is going to result in an incredibly toxic community. You're allowing duels inside towns (a huge mistake), and you still haven't introduced the sorts of instanced nodes that Guild Wars 2 has had since launch (which is embarrassing). You could make the game more appealing to the average player by reducing these factors.

From 'the outside' ESO still looks far too much like a traditional MMO and still has too much in common with the likes of Wildstar. That's why regular Elder Scrolls players are so readily dismissing it. They'll cite reasons like these as to why. Oh, I can't solo that content? Oh, I can't get those abilities I like because of archaic, draconic reasons? And so on. ESO looks a bit too much like an old man, trying to be hip and cool with his singing, dancing, and dad humour at times. It looks like Everquest trying to hide its shame. And that's really, really unfortunate.

It bothers me because ESO has the potential to be a new wave MMO that could draw in people like never before. It just has to leave its outmoded, outdated, antiquated ideas behind. Ideas that belong in 2006 more than they do in late 2016. If ESO doesn't leave these ideas behind, a new MMO will come along eventually that does, and it'll soak up all of ESO's players. This will happen because although ESO is modern, it still can't let go of these alienating, antiquated factors. So it's leaving room for someone to do it better and just eat up ESO's niche. That's what happened with Champions Online, as I'll keep pointing out. The playerbase kept telling them not to kow-tow to the hardcore, not to bend over to privileged force grouping minorities. We tried. And they did. Their day one patch which was meant to appease those minorites cut their community in half. Half of the players actually left. And we know this since CO provides data on those playing.

They kept attempting to appease those minorities, and now CO is a ghost town. I'm begging you not to make these same mistakes. If you want to keep your subscribers, your whales, the people who'll actually buy things from the crown store? Keep your casuals! The hardcore, the PvP players, these aren't the people you get money from. You get your money from the roleplayers, those who're playing the game to have fun. Those who're grinding will hit the content cap then leave, as they do. They'll only come back for a little while for new content. The people who'll stay after that, and will keep paying for new crown store stuff, are people who don't rush through the game. They're the people you want to appeal to.

I keep making these threads and posts because ESO is just CO's history repeating itself and I'm dreading it. My problem with all this? I really like ESO. I really liked CO, too. CO lost its community, but I stuck around for a really long time anyway. After a while, everything was just hardcore and PvP appeasement, and then the game was put on life support because there was no more money. All of your money comes from your casual audience, whom you are spurning. That's the problem with your community shrinking.

The way to get a bigger community isn't finding new ways to force people to play together, that's an outdated idea that should be left at the mass grave of every MMO that's tried that and failed. The way to get a bigger community is to make a game that's accessible and fun to play for the majority of people.

If you fixed these issues, you'd draw in all of the single player Elder Scrolls fans you're losing out on.

Please don't kill off ESO with bad design choices. One Tamriel's world bosses change tells me that you're going in the wrong direction, now. You're misguided and you believe that this will actually reap you greater profits. It won't. Down this road lies ruin. You'll lose everything. Never listen to the hardcore players or the PvP players. I'm sorry, but they're a minority and you can afford to lose them. What you cannot afford is to lose the casuals who're buying crown store items and paying for subscriptions. I mean, I spend upward of $400~ a month on ESO between subscriptions for myself and my partner, and crown store purchases. There are a lot of people like me.

Keep doing what you're doing, keep going down this path, you'll lose us. There'll always be another MMO that'll be smart enough to figure out what's going on, and to secure a huge community filled with people who'll happily pay large amounts of money.

Fix this. please. This really is a heartfelt plea. Don't be Champions Online 2: Failing Harder.

This should be in the CEO's inbox so he can read it and then call a heads of department meeting to discuss it at length.

There a lot of you insulting the OP and repeatedly saying this is an MMO. It is also a business. A game to make a living for people to whom the OP is addressing. Cut the guy some slack and move on if you disagree. I am sure you have better things to do than slag a guy off for expressing a point of view.

As for him not defending your inane attacks? Well that's his prerogative to not reply and be baited into an argument that will only become a potential flame war. The OP has some dignity and is not taking your bait, troll.

xblackroxe

BlackguardBob wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

I regularly question them.

Forced grouping: Don't do it. You'll lose players and alienate people. Allow any number of people to play any of the content. You'll have more players, a happier playerbase, and whilst you may lose 30~ players who'll be annoyed about their privilege, you'll gain 30,000 more. Forced grouping is one of the things I've heard people talk of as the reason they don't play ESO. They don't like it. Most modern thinking gamers don't. ESO is looking antiquated with it. Socialising doesn't mean forced grouping. Socialising, for most, is roleplaying. When most people are questing, they'll do it solo or in a group of 2-3 max.

Pseudo-forced Grouping: World bosses, in this case. Why? You have an instanced world, so why not allow people to pick difficulty for world zones? You can have anything ranging from casual (for the vast majority) to HYPER-L33T for the fifty or so people who'd actually want that. By having world bosses require a group, or a specific build, you're getting a reputation for upholding antiquated MMO standards.

Forcing Players to Play Content They Dislike: You have certain kinds of abilities (PvP's good heal, the Undaunted magicka taunt) that have absolutely no valid alternatives whatsoever, thus forcing people to play content they won't enjoy. The undaunted thing could be fixed by moving Inner Fire to rank 1 or 2 (I believe 2 can be achieved with This One's on Me), but the PvP heal really needs a valid alternative.

Encouraging Competitive Behaviour Everywhere: This is going to result in an incredibly toxic community. You're allowing duels inside towns (a huge mistake), and you still haven't introduced the sorts of instanced nodes that Guild Wars 2 has had since launch (which is embarrassing). You could make the game more appealing to the average player by reducing these factors.

From 'the outside' ESO still looks far too much like a traditional MMO and still has too much in common with the likes of Wildstar. That's why regular Elder Scrolls players are so readily dismissing it. They'll cite reasons like these as to why. Oh, I can't solo that content? Oh, I can't get those abilities I like because of archaic, draconic reasons? And so on. ESO looks a bit too much like an old man, trying to be hip and cool with his singing, dancing, and dad humour at times. It looks like Everquest trying to hide its shame. And that's really, really unfortunate.

It bothers me because ESO has the potential to be a new wave MMO that could draw in people like never before. It just has to leave its outmoded, outdated, antiquated ideas behind. Ideas that belong in 2006 more than they do in late 2016. If ESO doesn't leave these ideas behind, a new MMO will come along eventually that does, and it'll soak up all of ESO's players. This will happen because although ESO is modern, it still can't let go of these alienating, antiquated factors. So it's leaving room for someone to do it better and just eat up ESO's niche. That's what happened with Champions Online, as I'll keep pointing out. The playerbase kept telling them not to kow-tow to the hardcore, not to bend over to privileged force grouping minorities. We tried. And they did. Their day one patch which was meant to appease those minorites cut their community in half. Half of the players actually left. And we know this since CO provides data on those playing.

They kept attempting to appease those minorities, and now CO is a ghost town. I'm begging you not to make these same mistakes. If you want to keep your subscribers, your whales, the people who'll actually buy things from the crown store? Keep your casuals! The hardcore, the PvP players, these aren't the people you get money from. You get your money from the roleplayers, those who're playing the game to have fun. Those who're grinding will hit the content cap then leave, as they do. They'll only come back for a little while for new content. The people who'll stay after that, and will keep paying for new crown store stuff, are people who don't rush through the game. They're the people you want to appeal to.

I keep making these threads and posts because ESO is just CO's history repeating itself and I'm dreading it. My problem with all this? I really like ESO. I really liked CO, too. CO lost its community, but I stuck around for a really long time anyway. After a while, everything was just hardcore and PvP appeasement, and then the game was put on life support because there was no more money. All of your money comes from your casual audience, whom you are spurning. That's the problem with your community shrinking.

The way to get a bigger community isn't finding new ways to force people to play together, that's an outdated idea that should be left at the mass grave of every MMO that's tried that and failed. The way to get a bigger community is to make a game that's accessible and fun to play for the majority of people.

If you fixed these issues, you'd draw in all of the single player Elder Scrolls fans you're losing out on.

Please don't kill off ESO with bad design choices. One Tamriel's world bosses change tells me that you're going in the wrong direction, now. You're misguided and you believe that this will actually reap you greater profits. It won't. Down this road lies ruin. You'll lose everything. Never listen to the hardcore players or the PvP players. I'm sorry, but they're a minority and you can afford to lose them. What you cannot afford is to lose the casuals who're buying crown store items and paying for subscriptions. I mean, I spend upward of $400~ a month on ESO between subscriptions for myself and my partner, and crown store purchases. There are a lot of people like me.

Keep doing what you're doing, keep going down this path, you'll lose us. There'll always be another MMO that'll be smart enough to figure out what's going on, and to secure a huge community filled with people who'll happily pay large amounts of money.

Fix this. please. This really is a heartfelt plea. Don't be Champions Online 2: Failing Harder.

This should be in the CEO's inbox so he can read it and then call a heads of department meeting to discuss it at length.

There a lot of you insulting the OP and repeatedly saying this is an MMO. It is also a business. A game to make a living for people to whom the OP is addressing. Cut the guy some slack and move on if you disagree. I am sure you have better things to do than slag a guy off for expressing a point of view.

As for him not defending your inane attacks? Well that's his prerogative to not reply and be baited into an argument that will only become a potential flame war. The OP has some dignity and is not taking your bait, troll.

I always love people like this.

-"If you disagree with op dont post here"
Do you even know how an discussion works?

Wollust

BlackguardBob wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

I regularly question them.

Forced grouping: Don't do it. You'll lose players and alienate people. Allow any number of people to play any of the content. You'll have more players, a happier playerbase, and whilst you may lose 30~ players who'll be annoyed about their privilege, you'll gain 30,000 more. Forced grouping is one of the things I've heard people talk of as the reason they don't play ESO. They don't like it. Most modern thinking gamers don't. ESO is looking antiquated with it. Socialising doesn't mean forced grouping. Socialising, for most, is roleplaying. When most people are questing, they'll do it solo or in a group of 2-3 max.

Pseudo-forced Grouping: World bosses, in this case. Why? You have an instanced world, so why not allow people to pick difficulty for world zones? You can have anything ranging from casual (for the vast majority) to HYPER-L33T for the fifty or so people who'd actually want that. By having world bosses require a group, or a specific build, you're getting a reputation for upholding antiquated MMO standards.

Forcing Players to Play Content They Dislike: You have certain kinds of abilities (PvP's good heal, the Undaunted magicka taunt) that have absolutely no valid alternatives whatsoever, thus forcing people to play content they won't enjoy. The undaunted thing could be fixed by moving Inner Fire to rank 1 or 2 (I believe 2 can be achieved with This One's on Me), but the PvP heal really needs a valid alternative.

Encouraging Competitive Behaviour Everywhere: This is going to result in an incredibly toxic community. You're allowing duels inside towns (a huge mistake), and you still haven't introduced the sorts of instanced nodes that Guild Wars 2 has had since launch (which is embarrassing). You could make the game more appealing to the average player by reducing these factors.

From 'the outside' ESO still looks far too much like a traditional MMO and still has too much in common with the likes of Wildstar. That's why regular Elder Scrolls players are so readily dismissing it. They'll cite reasons like these as to why. Oh, I can't solo that content? Oh, I can't get those abilities I like because of archaic, draconic reasons? And so on. ESO looks a bit too much like an old man, trying to be hip and cool with his singing, dancing, and dad humour at times. It looks like Everquest trying to hide its shame. And that's really, really unfortunate.

It bothers me because ESO has the potential to be a new wave MMO that could draw in people like never before. It just has to leave its outmoded, outdated, antiquated ideas behind. Ideas that belong in 2006 more than they do in late 2016. If ESO doesn't leave these ideas behind, a new MMO will come along eventually that does, and it'll soak up all of ESO's players. This will happen because although ESO is modern, it still can't let go of these alienating, antiquated factors. So it's leaving room for someone to do it better and just eat up ESO's niche. That's what happened with Champions Online, as I'll keep pointing out. The playerbase kept telling them not to kow-tow to the hardcore, not to bend over to privileged force grouping minorities. We tried. And they did. Their day one patch which was meant to appease those minorites cut their community in half. Half of the players actually left. And we know this since CO provides data on those playing.

They kept attempting to appease those minorities, and now CO is a ghost town. I'm begging you not to make these same mistakes. If you want to keep your subscribers, your whales, the people who'll actually buy things from the crown store? Keep your casuals! The hardcore, the PvP players, these aren't the people you get money from. You get your money from the roleplayers, those who're playing the game to have fun. Those who're grinding will hit the content cap then leave, as they do. They'll only come back for a little while for new content. The people who'll stay after that, and will keep paying for new crown store stuff, are people who don't rush through the game. They're the people you want to appeal to.

I keep making these threads and posts because ESO is just CO's history repeating itself and I'm dreading it. My problem with all this? I really like ESO. I really liked CO, too. CO lost its community, but I stuck around for a really long time anyway. After a while, everything was just hardcore and PvP appeasement, and then the game was put on life support because there was no more money. All of your money comes from your casual audience, whom you are spurning. That's the problem with your community shrinking.

The way to get a bigger community isn't finding new ways to force people to play together, that's an outdated idea that should be left at the mass grave of every MMO that's tried that and failed. The way to get a bigger community is to make a game that's accessible and fun to play for the majority of people.

If you fixed these issues, you'd draw in all of the single player Elder Scrolls fans you're losing out on.

Please don't kill off ESO with bad design choices. One Tamriel's world bosses change tells me that you're going in the wrong direction, now. You're misguided and you believe that this will actually reap you greater profits. It won't. Down this road lies ruin. You'll lose everything. Never listen to the hardcore players or the PvP players. I'm sorry, but they're a minority and you can afford to lose them. What you cannot afford is to lose the casuals who're buying crown store items and paying for subscriptions. I mean, I spend upward of $400~ a month on ESO between subscriptions for myself and my partner, and crown store purchases. There are a lot of people like me.

Keep doing what you're doing, keep going down this path, you'll lose us. There'll always be another MMO that'll be smart enough to figure out what's going on, and to secure a huge community filled with people who'll happily pay large amounts of money.

Fix this. please. This really is a heartfelt plea. Don't be Champions Online 2: Failing Harder.

This should be in the CEO's inbox so he can read it and then call a heads of department meeting to discuss it at length.

There a lot of you insulting the OP and repeatedly saying this is an MMO. It is also a business. A game to make a living for people to whom the OP is addressing. Cut the guy some slack and move on if you disagree. I am sure you have better things to do than slag a guy off for expressing a point of view.

As for him not defending your inane attacks? Well that's his prerogative to not reply and be baited into an argument that will only become a potential flame war. The OP has some dignity and is not taking your bait, troll.

Rev Rielle

Forced grouping: Believe it or not MMOs survive on their community. A lasting community is one that's primarily achieved via player interaction. Where bonds of friendship are built when working together through difficult content they cannot achieve alone. There is a precedent for this and a very clear example that it works. Natural disaster bring communities and peoples together. The smart developer is aware of this human social interaction mechanism.

Pseudo-forced Grouping: See above. But also acknowledge people will take the path of least resistance regardless of whether it's good for them or not. The the success of the fast food industry is as good an example as any of this.

Encouraging Competitive Behaviour Everywhere: Players come in all shapes and sizes. On one hand you want to limit the options of other players types, whilst on the other you're complaining that if ESO doesn't adhere to your player-style point of view the player base they are doomed. Someone could quite easily have written the opposite and it would hold equal weight. Sure, it wasn't the greatest decision of development to allow dueling on top of a wayshrine, or in the middle of a town/city, but those are just very minion issues. No game is perfect.

The way to get a lasting core of a community IS by getting them to interact in the game. This can lead to forming bonds of friendship, guilds, etc etc. No one anywhere, ever, said an MMO is a one-shoe-fits-all and that it should appeal to all types of player equally. It's right there in it's name where its main focus should. And you bring up Everquest? It is one of the most successful MMOs to date. Any developer would love to see their mmo last as long, and be as successful as Everquest. And it is commonly known why it's still around: It has a very loyal player core, one that has built and formed on player interaction via group content.

MMOs long-term live and breathe on their community. What you're suggesting is almost the exact opposite of what the game needs. It's been said before and will be said again; it's an MMO, if you don't like the social aspects of the game, Then it's not for you, and there is nothing wrong with that; they are not for everyone. It's akin to signing up to play NFL then complaining bitterly that it's a contact sport.

WhitePawPrints

@AuldWolf

I don't know if you've played since launch, but trust me when I say that things have improved significantly with Tamriel One in regards of your complaints.

Craglorn was released shortly after release, and I was vehemently opposed to that style. It did force you to group up for an entire zone worth of content. It was unapproachable by single players, and became a ghost town quickly because no one wanted to group up to do content that they had already done or was not interested in. I did not touch Craglorn until Tamriel One, and I was finally able to complete the majority of the zone. I feel far more comfortable going to the zone and am delighted to see it so full of life now.

World Boss change was unexpected and I do understand the concerns with that. World Bosses may now be skipped over a lot more. I see no one near them now that the October event is over. I used to be able to solo them, and I still can on some if there is not an inkling of lag (which is never). I can 2 man any of the bosses though.

Dueling was a heavily requested feature, and now it's died down a lot. I avoid heavily populated cities by default, so I don't see much dueling anymore. When I have time, or know one of the duelers, I like to sit back and watch them sometimes. I would think people would be courteous enough to not duel in heavily populated areas, but I just ignore it. Last night I dueled at Auridon's first dolmen that's always populated, and people didn't seem to mind.

If you'd like, Auldwolf, you can add me and I will help you out if I'm ever available. With two people, I can get through nearly any normal dungeon, and defeat any World Boss. Trials are still out of my league as far as two-manning things go. I can show you the ropes in Cyrodil if you'd like. I'll give you ballistas and you can just collect defensive points to level up your Alliance skills. If you're interested, add @WhitePawPrints I'm usually just pick-pocketing and murdering poor NPC's anyway (DLC dailies).

VoidBlue

I actually enjoy soloing ( most ) daily dungeons, tho right now I can't solo normal 2 because they are harder than normal 1 dungeons ( mainly because of group mechanics like being cocooned, ect ect )

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Actually one thing ZOS should realize is "Who" is playing their game and "Why", I play ESO because it is an Elder Scrolls Game not because it is an MMO and their are bound to be a lot of people who play it for that exact same reason.

Telling an ES player who likes to play by themselves and likes ESO for it's story and not it's mechanics to leave is downright insulting, They are not going to not play an ES game just because it was made in an MMO setting, Also another thing with that, Some say those sort of people do not belong in this game because it is an MMO designed for group content, well here is news to you, It's still an ES game so in a way they may see you as the one's not belonging here because many people just so happen to be playing ESO because it's an MMO and not because they are fans of the series which is the exact opposite reason, sure their are people who enjoy both MMO's and the Series but that's another story, anyway as for the MMO players.. I can tell who those people are because they are the ones who say things like they will jump ship to the next MMO they come across if something in ESO get's to bad.

I wonder who is more loyal, the ones here for the story or the ones here for the mechanics?

old_mufasa

Sorry op this is a MMO..that means almost all content is group content that some maybe solo able... you seems to have a disconnect on the difference between a MMORPG and a single player RPG.. no one is forcing you to do anything.. you have options.. certain options are designed for groups.. others are not.. this is the nature of MMOs.

You seem to want a single player game that sometimes you multi-play in.. well they have those games.. Dragon Age 3, Mass Effect 3.. those games are single player games first.

ESO is not a single player game, it never was. So maybe instead of trying to change it to something its not.. you need to accept it as it is.. its a multi-player game first.

You have Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim if you want a single player option only.. ESO is made for the people that wanted a multi-player experience in the Elder Scrolls world.

In the end you need to deal with that.....

gard

I think someone needs a cuddle.

ColoursYouHave

AuldWolf wrote: »

Forcing Players to Play Content They Dislike: You have certain kinds of abilities (PvP's good heal, the Undaunted magicka taunt) that have absolutely no valid alternatives whatsoever, thus forcing people to play content they won't enjoy. The undaunted thing could be fixed by moving Inner Fire to rank 1 or 2 (I believe 2 can be achieved with This One's on Me), but the PvP heal really needs a valid alternative.

Locking certain skills or items behind specific content encourages people to discover content they might really enjoy, but never would have tried otherwise. Personally, when I bought ESO I intended to do strictly PVE content. It wasn't until being "forced" into Cyrodiil for skyshards and Alliance War skills that I realized how fun PVP actually is. Now, two years later, had it not been for PVP I would've quit playing this game a long time ago. In addition, completing content should feel rewarding for those who complete it, and obtaining unique gear or abilities for completing specific content helps with that feeling of accomplishment. You may not agree with the reasoning, nor the implementation, as it certainly does come with its own downsides, but there are valid reasons for this design choice.

Doctordarkspawn

Stop forcing me to PVP or do Content I hate to be effective, damnit.

Synfaer

OP Chill
This game is entertainment. If you are not enjoying it, then go do something that you will enjoy.
Unless you can afford to hire a team to design and produce your own game, you will have to pick the one that ticks the most boxes.
From your comments you would most likely enjoy playing single player games, but if you have your mind set on an MMO then most have a 'free' version you can trial and determine if it meets most of your expectations for entertainment.

Sigma957

You are not forced to group but to do the harder content it's better with a group. A lot of the world bosses can be solo'ed if you have good resource management and time. As far as wanting the pvp heal ( vigor) is much easier to get now than it ever was and the undaunted taunt you can get just by and the undaunted daily by yourself.
This game is based on players interacting with other players from time to time but dare I say 95% of content soloable. You can't have all the goodies given to you without you doing some work to get them.

Mojmir

Judging by some responses,elitists aren't the only toxic community. Lol

Leogon

xblackroxe wrote: »

BlackguardBob wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

I regularly question them.

Forced grouping: Don't do it. You'll lose players and alienate people. Allow any number of people to play any of the content. You'll have more players, a happier playerbase, and whilst you may lose 30~ players who'll be annoyed about their privilege, you'll gain 30,000 more. Forced grouping is one of the things I've heard people talk of as the reason they don't play ESO. They don't like it. Most modern thinking gamers don't. ESO is looking antiquated with it. Socialising doesn't mean forced grouping. Socialising, for most, is roleplaying. When most people are questing, they'll do it solo or in a group of 2-3 max.

Pseudo-forced Grouping: World bosses, in this case. Why? You have an instanced world, so why not allow people to pick difficulty for world zones? You can have anything ranging from casual (for the vast majority) to HYPER-L33T for the fifty or so people who'd actually want that. By having world bosses require a group, or a specific build, you're getting a reputation for upholding antiquated MMO standards.

Forcing Players to Play Content They Dislike: You have certain kinds of abilities (PvP's good heal, the Undaunted magicka taunt) that have absolutely no valid alternatives whatsoever, thus forcing people to play content they won't enjoy. The undaunted thing could be fixed by moving Inner Fire to rank 1 or 2 (I believe 2 can be achieved with This One's on Me), but the PvP heal really needs a valid alternative.

Encouraging Competitive Behaviour Everywhere: This is going to result in an incredibly toxic community. You're allowing duels inside towns (a huge mistake), and you still haven't introduced the sorts of instanced nodes that Guild Wars 2 has had since launch (which is embarrassing). You could make the game more appealing to the average player by reducing these factors.

From 'the outside' ESO still looks far too much like a traditional MMO and still has too much in common with the likes of Wildstar. That's why regular Elder Scrolls players are so readily dismissing it. They'll cite reasons like these as to why. Oh, I can't solo that content? Oh, I can't get those abilities I like because of archaic, draconic reasons? And so on. ESO looks a bit too much like an old man, trying to be hip and cool with his singing, dancing, and dad humour at times. It looks like Everquest trying to hide its shame. And that's really, really unfortunate.

It bothers me because ESO has the potential to be a new wave MMO that could draw in people like never before. It just has to leave its outmoded, outdated, antiquated ideas behind. Ideas that belong in 2006 more than they do in late 2016. If ESO doesn't leave these ideas behind, a new MMO will come along eventually that does, and it'll soak up all of ESO's players. This will happen because although ESO is modern, it still can't let go of these alienating, antiquated factors. So it's leaving room for someone to do it better and just eat up ESO's niche. That's what happened with Champions Online, as I'll keep pointing out. The playerbase kept telling them not to kow-tow to the hardcore, not to bend over to privileged force grouping minorities. We tried. And they did. Their day one patch which was meant to appease those minorites cut their community in half. Half of the players actually left. And we know this since CO provides data on those playing.

They kept attempting to appease those minorities, and now CO is a ghost town. I'm begging you not to make these same mistakes. If you want to keep your subscribers, your whales, the people who'll actually buy things from the crown store? Keep your casuals! The hardcore, the PvP players, these aren't the people you get money from. You get your money from the roleplayers, those who're playing the game to have fun. Those who're grinding will hit the content cap then leave, as they do. They'll only come back for a little while for new content. The people who'll stay after that, and will keep paying for new crown store stuff, are people who don't rush through the game. They're the people you want to appeal to.

I keep making these threads and posts because ESO is just CO's history repeating itself and I'm dreading it. My problem with all this? I really like ESO. I really liked CO, too. CO lost its community, but I stuck around for a really long time anyway. After a while, everything was just hardcore and PvP appeasement, and then the game was put on life support because there was no more money. All of your money comes from your casual audience, whom you are spurning. That's the problem with your community shrinking.

The way to get a bigger community isn't finding new ways to force people to play together, that's an outdated idea that should be left at the mass grave of every MMO that's tried that and failed. The way to get a bigger community is to make a game that's accessible and fun to play for the majority of people.

If you fixed these issues, you'd draw in all of the single player Elder Scrolls fans you're losing out on.

Please don't kill off ESO with bad design choices. One Tamriel's world bosses change tells me that you're going in the wrong direction, now. You're misguided and you believe that this will actually reap you greater profits. It won't. Down this road lies ruin. You'll lose everything. Never listen to the hardcore players or the PvP players. I'm sorry, but they're a minority and you can afford to lose them. What you cannot afford is to lose the casuals who're buying crown store items and paying for subscriptions. I mean, I spend upward of $400~ a month on ESO between subscriptions for myself and my partner, and crown store purchases. There are a lot of people like me.

Keep doing what you're doing, keep going down this path, you'll lose us. There'll always be another MMO that'll be smart enough to figure out what's going on, and to secure a huge community filled with people who'll happily pay large amounts of money.

Fix this. please. This really is a heartfelt plea. Don't be Champions Online 2: Failing Harder.

This should be in the CEO's inbox so he can read it and then call a heads of department meeting to discuss it at length.

There a lot of you insulting the OP and repeatedly saying this is an MMO. It is also a business. A game to make a living for people to whom the OP is addressing. Cut the guy some slack and move on if you disagree. I am sure you have better things to do than slag a guy off for expressing a point of view.

As for him not defending your inane attacks? Well that's his prerogative to not reply and be baited into an argument that will only become a potential flame war. The OP has some dignity and is not taking your bait, troll.

I always love people like this.

-"If you disagree with op dont post here"
Do you even know how an discussion works?

Did you read the replies? People can agree or disagree with the OP and that's fine but making fun of him/her and insulting him/her is not what I would call a discussion. Just saying.

SlayerTheDragon

As long as all of you keep defending ZOS' lazy designs there will be no change to them.

So well done to everyone here yet again. You are all so caught up with dropping comments that everyone will agree with, rather than creating some meaningful input.

As an example, If ZOS were to scrap the ten star forum rating - how much will these forums change? They won't do it because then we will only comment when it is needed (no more to generate forum points) and that will really hurt them.

SublimeSparo

Thelon wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

One Tamriel's world bosses change tells me that you're going in the wrong direction, now. You're misguided and you believe that this will actually reap you greater profits. It won't. Down this road lies ruin. You'll lose everything.

Fear Mongering has reached Rank IV

AuldWolf wrote: »

Allow any number of people to play any of the content. You'll have more players, a happier playerbase, and whilst you may lose 30~ players who'll be annoyed about their privilege, you'll gain 30,000 more.

AuldWolf wrote: »

Never listen to the hardcore players

AuldWolf wrote: »

By having world bosses require a group, or a specific build, you're getting a reputation for upholding antiquated MMO standards.

AuldWolf wrote: »

From 'the outside' ESO still looks far too much like a traditional MMO and still has too much in common with the likes of Wildstar.

AuldWolf wrote: »

ESO looks a bit too much like an old man, trying to be hip and cool with his singing, dancing, and dad humour at times.

AuldWolf wrote: »

All of your money comes from your casual audience, whom you are spurning.

And the post of the year award in the 'response by meme' category goes to.......
Thelon

Pops_ND_Irish

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Seems like you need to quit. Pls mail me your stuff.

Darn it ! Too slow
I give ya $500 gold for everything !

Agalloch

AuldWolf wrote: »

I regularly question them.

Forced grouping: Don't do it. You'll lose players and alienate people. Allow any number of people to play any of the content. You'll have more players, a happier playerbase, and whilst you may lose 30~ players who'll be annoyed about their privilege, you'll gain 30,000 more. Forced grouping is one of the things I've heard people talk of as the reason they don't play ESO. They don't like it. Most modern thinking gamers don't. ESO is looking antiquated with it. Socialising doesn't mean forced grouping. Socialising, for most, is roleplaying. When most people are questing, they'll do it solo or in a group of 2-3 max.

Pseudo-forced Grouping: World bosses, in this case. Why? You have an instanced world, so why not allow people to pick difficulty for world zones? You can have anything ranging from casual (for the vast majority) to HYPER-L33T for the fifty or so people who'd actually want that. By having world bosses require a group, or a specific build, you're getting a reputation for upholding antiquated MMO standards.

Forcing Players to Play Content They Dislike: You have certain kinds of abilities (PvP's good heal, the Undaunted magicka taunt) that have absolutely no valid alternatives whatsoever, thus forcing people to play content they won't enjoy. The undaunted thing could be fixed by moving Inner Fire to rank 1 or 2 (I believe 2 can be achieved with This One's on Me), but the PvP heal really needs a valid alternative.

Encouraging Competitive Behaviour Everywhere: This is going to result in an incredibly toxic community. You're allowing duels inside towns (a huge mistake), and you still haven't introduced the sorts of instanced nodes that Guild Wars 2 has had since launch (which is embarrassing). You could make the game more appealing to the average player by reducing these factors.

From 'the outside' ESO still looks far too much like a traditional MMO and still has too much in common with the likes of Wildstar. That's why regular Elder Scrolls players are so readily dismissing it. They'll cite reasons like these as to why. Oh, I can't solo that content? Oh, I can't get those abilities I like because of archaic, draconic reasons? And so on. ESO looks a bit too much like an old man, trying to be hip and cool with his singing, dancing, and dad humour at times. It looks like Everquest trying to hide its shame. And that's really, really unfortunate.

It bothers me because ESO has the potential to be a new wave MMO that could draw in people like never before. It just has to leave its outmoded, outdated, antiquated ideas behind. Ideas that belong in 2006 more than they do in late 2016. If ESO doesn't leave these ideas behind, a new MMO will come along eventually that does, and it'll soak up all of ESO's players. This will happen because although ESO is modern, it still can't let go of these alienating, antiquated factors. So it's leaving room for someone to do it better and just eat up ESO's niche. That's what happened with Champions Online, as I'll keep pointing out. The playerbase kept telling them not to kow-tow to the hardcore, not to bend over to privileged force grouping minorities. We tried. And they did. Their day one patch which was meant to appease those minorites cut their community in half. Half of the players actually left. And we know this since CO provides data on those playing.

They kept attempting to appease those minorities, and now CO is a ghost town. I'm begging you not to make these same mistakes. If you want to keep your subscribers, your whales, the people who'll actually buy things from the crown store? Keep your casuals! The hardcore, the PvP players, these aren't the people you get money from. You get your money from the roleplayers, those who're playing the game to have fun. Those who're grinding will hit the content cap then leave, as they do. They'll only come back for a little while for new content. The people who'll stay after that, and will keep paying for new crown store stuff, are people who don't rush through the game. They're the people you want to appeal to.

I keep making these threads and posts because ESO is just CO's history repeating itself and I'm dreading it. My problem with all this? I really like ESO. I really liked CO, too. CO lost its community, but I stuck around for a really long time anyway. After a while, everything was just hardcore and PvP appeasement, and then the game was put on life support because there was no more money. All of your money comes from your casual audience, whom you are spurning. That's the problem with your community shrinking.

The way to get a bigger community isn't finding new ways to force people to play together, that's an outdated idea that should be left at the mass grave of every MMO that's tried that and failed. The way to get a bigger community is to make a game that's accessible and fun to play for the majority of people.

If you fixed these issues, you'd draw in all of the single player Elder Scrolls fans you're losing out on.

Please don't kill off ESO with bad design choices. One Tamriel's world bosses change tells me that you're going in the wrong direction, now. You're misguided and you believe that this will actually reap you greater profits. It won't. Down this road lies ruin. You'll lose everything. Never listen to the hardcore players or the PvP players. I'm sorry, but they're a minority and you can afford to lose them. What you cannot afford is to lose the casuals who're buying crown store items and paying for subscriptions. I mean, I spend upward of $400~ a month on ESO between subscriptions for myself and my partner, and crown store purchases. There are a lot of people like me.

Keep doing what you're doing, keep going down this path, you'll lose us. There'll always be another MMO that'll be smart enough to figure out what's going on, and to secure a huge community filled with people who'll happily pay large amounts of money.

Fix this. please. This really is a heartfelt plea. Don't be Champions Online 2: Failing Harder.

This a MMO not a single player game. Look at all the big MMOs ..like WOW, FFIV GW2, ...All of them have forced group content...and ESO has by far the most solo content I ever seen in a MMO ..so if something looks to you too hard to complete alone..pls try to socialize , make some friends and play together..and all your problems will gone.

Try to not compare ESO with a sub mediocre MMO that doesn't count . Look at real Titans...Even Diablo 3 ( multiplayer co-op has some forced group content ..if you want your uber gear)

I am also a casual...and playing ESO as a mix of single and group play..because is a MMO . 85% of ESO is single player..dont forget that!

Good luck!


English is not my native language.

Zyrudin

@AuldWolf
@Bryanonymous
@GraniteDevil


Addressing the forced grouped content, I do understand that there may be a lot of people playing the game having this trouble. It is not that the content should be solo, it is just that these players are not shown how to make the best of grouping and how to join a community.

Let me provide a few tips, if I may:

- If you have no real life friends playing the game, use group finder. If you do, group with them when you can AND then use group finder.
- When you find a player in a random group that you consider to be good skillwise and sociable enough for your personality, add that player to the Friends list and add a note to the contact (right-click on the contact and Add Note. EX: "Great DD, likes to run dungeons").
- Ask these people you add to your friends list about their guilds. If they are in any and how it is there, what do they do, is it casual or hardcore, etc. If you find one that is interesting ask to join.
- When you are in guilds that you feel at home in, repeat the same process without the group finder: recruit groups from the guilds and add to friends list with notes each of the players you like grouping with.

After just some time, you will have a community to work with and will not have the issue of forced grouping - quite the contrary, you will enjoy group content far more than before and it may even surprise you how much.

I hope it helps.

Kendaric

ValkynSketha wrote: »

I will say it again MMORPG .

And I'll say it again, MMORPG does not mean forced grouping. It just means that you share a persistent online world with a lot of other players.

I'd love to have a solo version of the dungeons (of course with different loot) available, so that I could experience their story. Other players exist for me either as moving and often badly named NPCs or people to RP with.

Abeille

Kendaric wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

I will say it again MMORPG .

And I'll say it again, MMORPG does not mean forced grouping. It just means that you share a persistent online world with a lot of other players.

I'd love to have a solo version of the dungeons (of course with different loot) available, so that I could experience their story. Other players exist for me either as moving and often badly named NPCs or people to RP with.

Came here to say this.

The ideal game for me would let me bring any number of players (from no one but myself to a full trial group) into any instance, and the instance would adjust and scale accordingly. Maybe allow players to set the instance to scale to a number of players bigger than their group for those who want a bigger challenge (but not for a smaller number than the number of people in the group, that would be abused).

I am against forced group AND forced solo content.