Is this game all about min/max?

Warwall

I have watched a lot of videos on different builds. Both pve and pvp, the one thing that I saw almost constantly was people rapidly switching between weapon sets to keep up buffs. Is this typical of the game? Or is this only high level competitive play?

I don't mind switch weapons for different situations, but it seems like this is a constant and rapid every fight thing (at least on the videos). If I did want to play something like a 2h/DW or 2h/1h+s will it just fail? Does every class have to use bow or staff as a secondary weapon?

Thanks for your time folks.

newtinmpls

I don't play that way.

Some do.

Some dungeons are really hard, if not impossible to do if you aren't fairly optimized.

LadyNalcarya

Not really, 99,9% of the content is doable for any "build" that makes sense (for example, not like putting all points in stamina, equipping a bow and using only magicka abilities and queing for dungeons as a tank).

Glurin

There's always a very loud portion of the community that would have you believe every game is all about min/max. Sometimes they'll even chastise you for playing "incorrectly" if you say otherwise. But the truth is that in nearly all cases there isn't any content that actually requires anything close to min/maxing. And of the very, very few cases that there is content like that, it consists of like .0001% of the content, is completely optional and was deliberately put in there to give the masochists what they want.

Drdeath20

1 person min maxing vs a a great player with a great build (but not optimal) won't make a ton of difference. The smarter player usually can win. It's when a few min maxers get together that they become this unkillable group.

SirAndy

Yes. No. Maybe ...

Warwall

Thanks for the replies folks. I have enjoyed the game so far, now I just have to decide whether I will play the Templar or Dragon Knight as a main.

Auricle

Honestly, min-maxing without understanding the reasons why isn't going to magically make you a better player. If you don't understand the underlying mechanisms of a class, following a "pro" build won't help. Use and learn all the skills, critically think about their purposes and the situations that might call for them, and then apply tactics from min-maxing builds to improve upon your own knowledge. And if something about min-maxing doesn't sit well with you, be it a rotation or even an aethestic choice, you probably won't enjoy playing your character.

Enjoyment > Optimization

It's a game, after all. A game that requires skill and foresight, certainly, but a game nonetheless.

Curtdogg47

When you think about all the gear and all the set combos, all the skills and passives, and the CP trees. There are numerous ways to set up numerous types builds.

It's comes down to being able see all the possibilities out there and then narrowing things down and putting things together in a way that compliments you and how you like to play.

Bryanonymous

The more you play, the more you have to accept the reality that... yea, it mostly is. Like, I hated being forced to use dots as a magic sorc, but I started doing it for groups. Now they are just second nature... always buff, then dots, then attacks. You just adapt and accept, then find what you like best.

AtraisMachina

it definitely is to a degree. Although I would say its more about there being alot of room for progression.

thedude33

Have played a lot of these types of games over the years. The min/max builds used to be called FOTM (flavor of the month). Now the new fancy word for it is 'meta'

The ironic thing is the min/maxers will all fall in line when someone discovers the new 'meta' .They swear by it and ridicule anyone who doesn't follow it. Then someone else discovers a new way to do things. Viola, a new meta. The min/maxers flock to that build and claim it is the best ever.

That will change every little while. The point is, have fun, try new things. Maybe you will discover your own meta. The funny thing is, the known meta is often times behind the new meta of the innovators. They just don't know it yet

BlanketFort

The game really isn't as punishing as some make it to be. You can get by with the "play how you want" style when soloing, it's in group play where this becomes a problem. Some will not like the fact that you are equipping 2H/bow, maybe. In fact, now that I think of it, it's been a long while since I saw anyone play with a 2H in PvE. Anywho, my point is, like everyone else's, is first figure out how you want to play, what you feel comfortable with etc and then maybe look up a build and tweak it to your play style.

Or if you prefer to do it your unique way, I would strongly advise against PUGing and maybe instead run with guildies or players more open to unorthodox builds.

I remember wanting to wield DW/S&B in full medium as a StamDK DPS. Solo play: no problem. Group play: rarely would anyone run the full content with me. I did do fine (as in things were still dying sorta fast and I had a lot of fun Shield-charging everything), I just wasn't giving out as much DPS as I should be able to with my level and I ruined people's speed runs. Guildless as I was, it was very difficult to get my pledges done through PUGs. I eventually succumbed to the Meta-pressure, looked up a build i was most comfortable with, and tweaked mine around that. I'm a more effective player now but sometimes..., sometimes I wish I hadn't let myself be peer pressured into the Meta. My DW/S&B set-up was the most fun I've ever had. The build I run now, while powerful, is dull, repetitive and lacklustre in comparison.

TL;DR: The game is forgiving, it is the community that is not.

PS: As for bar swapping, yes.. that's pretty normal. Most people have a DPS and a buff bar, or single-target and aoe bar and so on.

RavenSworn

BlanketFort wrote: »

The game really isn't as punishing as some make it to be. You can get by with the "play how you want" style when soloing, it's in group play where this becomes a problem. Some will not like the fact that you are equipping 2H/bow, maybe. In fact, now that I think of it, it's been a long while since I saw anyone play with a 2H in PvE. Anywho, my point is, like everyone else's, is first figure out how you want to play, what you feel comfortable with etc and then maybe look up a build and tweak it to your play style.

Or if you prefer to do it your unique way, I would strongly advise against PUGing and maybe instead run with guildies or players more open to unorthodox builds.

I remember wanting to wield DW/S&B in full medium as a StamDK DPS. Solo play: no problem. Group play: rarely would anyone run the full content with me. I did do fine (as in things were still dying sorta fast and I had a lot of fun Shield-charging everything), I just wasn't giving out as much DPS as I should be able to with my level and I ruined people's speed runs. Guildless as I was, it was very difficult to get my pledges done through PUGs. I eventually succumbed to the Meta-pressure, looked up a build i was most comfortable with, and tweaked mine around that. I'm a more effective player now but sometimes..., sometimes I wish I hadn't let myself be peer pressured into the Meta. My DW/S&B set-up was the most fun I've ever had. The build I run now, while powerful, is dull, repetitive and lacklustre in comparison.

TL;DR: The game is forgiving, it is the community that is not.

PS: As for bar swapping, yes.. that's pretty normal. Most people have a DPS and a buff bar, or single-target and aoe bar and so on.

Sad to hear that, since I would love to run with unorthodox builds. Had the same idea with dw / sb on a nb which can be done if you have a knack for it. Shield charge the casters, bash then reflect the magic they have. You have all the criteria you need from the assassin line which translate well into good dps. Is it optimal? Nope. Is it fun? Sure as hell is.

Gilliamtherogue

There's no content in the game aside from Hardmode content (HM trials/4mans) that demands relatively min/maxed builds, including PvP. If you aren't into hardcore raiding, and you're okay with a few bumps in the road while PvP'ing or doing 4 man content, you can pretty much get away with anything as long as your build has a specific idea in mind and is built around that.

The main issue with players is attempting to spread their builds around and encompass every aspect of the game, or "hybrid builds". Some hybrid builds *can* work, but most of them fall flat on their face unless the build creator has really thought things out. Hybrid builds can still play the game to an extent; as questing, overland dungeons, and occasional PvP encounters can all be done with them due to their ease of access scaling, but when you start getting into Veteran content or dealing with more experienced players, you're going to notice the game gets much more brutal and unforgiving.

The biggest thing to look at when trying to participate in the "higher" end content is that your build focuses on a single role, sometimes you can get away with doing two if you're REALLY good, but more than likely you'll want to focus on dealing damage, taking damage, or healing damage taken. At that, you'll also want your build to focus on a specific playstyle, either Stamina based or Magicka based- since splitting yourself between the two REALLY hurts your overall performance due to scaling of abilities and how the Champion point system works. The biggest thing to remember is that harder content is meant to be tackled by a team of individuals who all perform a specific role, not a lone wolf who tries to do everything.

BlanketFort

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

BlanketFort wrote: »

The game really isn't as punishing as some make it to be. You can get by with the "play how you want" style when soloing, it's in group play where this becomes a problem. Some will not like the fact that you are equipping 2H/bow, maybe. In fact, now that I think of it, it's been a long while since I saw anyone play with a 2H in PvE. Anywho, my point is, like everyone else's, is first figure out how you want to play, what you feel comfortable with etc and then maybe look up a build and tweak it to your play style.

Or if you prefer to do it your unique way, I would strongly advise against PUGing and maybe instead run with guildies or players more open to unorthodox builds.

I remember wanting to wield DW/S&B in full medium as a StamDK DPS. Solo play: no problem. Group play: rarely would anyone run the full content with me. I did do fine (as in things were still dying sorta fast and I had a lot of fun Shield-charging everything), I just wasn't giving out as much DPS as I should be able to with my level and I ruined people's speed runs. Guildless as I was, it was very difficult to get my pledges done through PUGs. I eventually succumbed to the Meta-pressure, looked up a build i was most comfortable with, and tweaked mine around that. I'm a more effective player now but sometimes..., sometimes I wish I hadn't let myself be peer pressured into the Meta. My DW/S&B set-up was the most fun I've ever had. The build I run now, while powerful, is dull, repetitive and lacklustre in comparison.

TL;DR: The game is forgiving, it is the community that is not.

PS: As for bar swapping, yes.. that's pretty normal. Most people have a DPS and a buff bar, or single-target and aoe bar and so on.

Sad to hear that, since I would love to run with unorthodox builds. Had the same idea with dw / sb on a nb which can be done if you have a knack for it. Shield charge the casters, bash then reflect the magic they have. You have all the criteria you need from the assassin line which translate well into good dps. Is it optimal? Nope. Is it fun? Sure as hell is.

With the little info you've told me, that does sound like fun! Oooh, you are making me miss my shield-charging, Ultimate generating DK!

One day, one day I will gather as much off-build players as I can I find and encounter in the game, create a guild where we are going to run annoying content with the most hilarious and frustrating of failures OR unplanned, unexpected, miraculous victory. It will be one facepalm after another. Plenty of beer will be chugged in exasperation. It will cater to fun-loving masochists with a rebellious streak, a place where you are free to be as non-optimal and ineffective as you'd like. It'll be tough and extremely challenging but hopefully, also fun, and maybe some threats of rage-quitting at the end of the day. We'll be cursing at one another and calling each other idiots, screaming for help or yelling out incomprehensible commands through voice chat. And once the hellish nightmare is over, we'll go sit back, chill, and carry on in jolly moods, knowing that we stood against the Meta. Ironically enough, after the run is over, we will all switch back to our FOTM-inspired set-ups so we can face-melt more mobs. Think of it as a slightly-fightclub-inspired congregation of like-minded individuals who want to dish out pain the way they've always wanted to. To do the things the strictly-meta controlled community would roll their eyes out at. Then be hypocrites and carry on with our FOTM lives outside of Guild runs. The most challenging part, I think, would be to find such people.

Danikat

Warwall wrote: »

I have watched a lot of videos on different builds. Both pve and pvp, the one thing that I saw almost constantly was people rapidly switching between weapon sets to keep up buffs. Is this typical of the game? Or is this only high level competitive play?

I don't mind switch weapons for different situations, but it seems like this is a constant and rapid every fight thing (at least on the videos). If I did want to play something like a 2h/DW or 2h/1h+s will it just fail? Does every class have to use bow or staff as a secondary weapon?

Thanks for your time folks.

Key point here: You were watching videos on builds. That's not going to be representative of the game as a whole because very few people are going to want to watch a video of a mediocre build or something everyone already knows how to do and so there's no benefit to making those kinds of videos. People will be aiming to show off something unusual or exceptional they've created, whether it's the stats and skills or how they're used (or both).

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

BlanketFort wrote: »

The game really isn't as punishing as some make it to be. You can get by with the "play how you want" style when soloing, it's in group play where this becomes a problem. Some will not like the fact that you are equipping 2H/bow, maybe. In fact, now that I think of it, it's been a long while since I saw anyone play with a 2H in PvE. Anywho, my point is, like everyone else's, is first figure out how you want to play, what you feel comfortable with etc and then maybe look up a build and tweak it to your play style.

Or if you prefer to do it your unique way, I would strongly advise against PUGing and maybe instead run with guildies or players more open to unorthodox builds.

I remember wanting to wield DW/S&B in full medium as a StamDK DPS. Solo play: no problem. Group play: rarely would anyone run the full content with me. I did do fine (as in things were still dying sorta fast and I had a lot of fun Shield-charging everything), I just wasn't giving out as much DPS as I should be able to with my level and I ruined people's speed runs. Guildless as I was, it was very difficult to get my pledges done through PUGs. I eventually succumbed to the Meta-pressure, looked up a build i was most comfortable with, and tweaked mine around that. I'm a more effective player now but sometimes..., sometimes I wish I hadn't let myself be peer pressured into the Meta. My DW/S&B set-up was the most fun I've ever had. The build I run now, while powerful, is dull, repetitive and lacklustre in comparison.

TL;DR: The game is forgiving, it is the community that is not.

PS: As for bar swapping, yes.. that's pretty normal. Most people have a DPS and a buff bar, or single-target and aoe bar and so on.

Sad to hear that, since I would love to run with unorthodox builds. Had the same idea with dw / sb on a nb which can be done if you have a knack for it. Shield charge the casters, bash then reflect the magic they have. You have all the criteria you need from the assassin line which translate well into good dps. Is it optimal? Nope. Is it fun? Sure as hell is.

I think it depends on who you're playing with. For PUGs I agree you'll be expected to play something effective and most people also want it to be something familiar (ideally the current FOTM build) so they know it's effective rather than waiting to see if your custom build is just as good or wondering what you're doing if you don't play in a way they expect.

But if you play with your guild or friends it can be completely different. I've had multiple occasions when one of my guilds has invited me to do a dungeon and I've told them I can't because my 'sensible' character is too low level and the one I'm playing has a weird hybrid build (using both stamina and magicka) and doesn't exactly fit a role and they've told me to come anyway. Once I was asked "Do you think it works?" and when I said yes that was good enough. Other times they've just said to come anyway and we'll see how it goes.

(For what it's worth I usually don't do any worse than other people in the group. I have no idea what our DPS is and sometimes someone will die but we get through the dungeon without spending hours and that's good enough for me.)

Dubhliam

Min maxing has little correlation to switching weapon bars.

Yes, you may play on only one bar, but you are limiting yourself from 10 skill plus 2 ultis to 5 skills and one ulti.
That is a really low number of skills to be using.

As I said, you can... but you would intentionally gimp yourself by doing so.

Instead, I recommend you look at the second bar as your "buff bar".
I you cast some buffs, swap back to your main bar and engage into combat.
In time, you will learn to swap during fights also.

If you still decide to use one bar only, I recommend to set up your skill bar with:
1 single target, high damage skill
1 AoE skill
1 shield
1 self heal
1 large ground based DoT
ulti

Rune_Relic

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

There's no content in the game aside from Hardmode content (HM trials/4mans) that demands relatively min/maxed builds, including PvP. If you aren't into hardcore raiding, and you're okay with a few bumps in the road while PvP'ing or doing 4 man content, you can pretty much get away with anything as long as your build has a specific idea in mind and is built around that.

The main issue with players is attempting to spread their builds around and encompass every aspect of the game, or "hybrid builds". Some hybrid builds *can* work, but most of them fall flat on their face unless the build creator has really thought things out. Hybrid builds can still play the game to an extent; as questing, overland dungeons, and occasional PvP encounters can all be done with them due to their ease of access scaling, but when you start getting into Veteran content or dealing with more experienced players, you're going to notice the game gets much more brutal and unforgiving.

The biggest thing to look at when trying to participate in the "higher" end content is that your build focuses on a single role, sometimes you can get away with doing two if you're REALLY good, but more than likely you'll want to focus on dealing damage, taking damage, or healing damage taken. At that, you'll also want your build to focus on a specific playstyle, either Stamina based or Magicka based- since splitting yourself between the two REALLY hurts your overall performance due to scaling of abilities and how the Champion point system works. The biggest thing to remember is that harder content is meant to be tackled by a team of individuals who all perform a specific role, not a lone wolf who tries to do everything.

Sadly.....all true.

Pallio

Min/Max is a personal goal thing, being the best you can with optimal gear and perfect rotation of strongest skills etc.

This gets confused with the real problem of Elite ism, where people feel like they are qualified to give out unwanted advise or worse act like you are wasting their time and they would rather find other 'Elite' people to play with...

Do the best you can in whatever role you choose to play, avoid these snooty players that change their 'meta' every patch chasing whatever their FOTM friends tell them is the NEW most best awesome setup and anything else is a waste of time.

RebornV3x

It depends all content up to Vmol can be done without much regards to Min/Max having a good rotation is the deal breaker you can have great gear and a crap skill rotation and still be bad.

As far has PVP goes theres currently no skill involved and is luck based whomever gear sets proc firsts and gets there ulti off first usually wins (Assuming there isn't a big CP gap)