Can we discuss diversity for a second?

Malitias

The way the game currently works suggests going completely into stamina OR magicka as your maximum stam/mag increases the numbers on the skills. Nothing new here.

1st question: Do you think this is a good system?

2nd question (answer: yes): What benefits does this system offer? (answer: no): How would you like to change it and with which purpose?

As you can imagine, I dislike the current system as it makes hybrid builds(stam AND mag) very complicated and niche to use and almost entirely useless in end-endgame content.
What I'd like to see is the maximum resource having no impact on the damage to give the player more freedom in creating unique builds.
What are your thoughts about it?

Pandorii

I wanted to add a quote from Wrobel from today's AMA:

"Our goal is to make it more valuable to spend points in health instead of just going all magicka or stamina. The reason this is so powerful is you're getting to deal more damage and heal yourself for more by maxing offensive stats. The current design is still in progress, so l don't have concrete details for you right now."

It may contribute to the discussion.

It doesn't necessarily address the problem of hybrids, but it suggests that even the devs think the current system is not quite right.

Rohamad_Ali

I completely agree and thought back when game launched this would great diversity in builds . Quickly lost those dreams after learning about scaling here .

Malitias

Pandorii wrote: »

It doesn't necessarily address the problem of hybrids, but it suggests that even the devs think the current system is not quite right.

Thanks! It's good to see developers questioning their own systems.

Pandorii wrote: »

"Our goal is to make it more valuable to spend points in health instead of just going all magicka or stamina. The reason this is so powerful is you're getting to deal more damage and heal yourself for more by maxing offensive stats.""

That's true. Another reason to remove max mag/stam from effect calculation IMO.

idk

The current system is fine. A pure build offers higher damage. The game originally forced hybrid builds upon stam users or they could choose to only use weapon line skills which made them a weaker dps class. The game has moved in a direction for making pure builds easier to make.

While I respect the the choice some make with going with a hybrid build, as you pointed out they are fairly weak, though a newer crafted set does help. I think it would be bad for the game to the current base game at the detriment of pure builds as it would do the same thing OP does not like, it would force hybrid builds and as such would be much more limiting that the current game design.

Even when the game launched, hybrid builds were weaker. It is why magika builds shined early on, they could more easily build for pure magika.

Malitias

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I think it would be bad for the game to the current base game at the detriment of pure builds as it would do the same thing OP does not like, it would force hybrid builds and as such would be much more limiting that the current game design.

In don't understand how removing the maxstat from skill calculation would force hybrid builds.

The goal should be to have pure builds AND hybrid builds not just be a viable option, but being on par. The thought you put into your build is what should matter.

Kendaric

Once again... they need to bring softcaps back. When even Wrobel acknowlegdes that something is wrong...

idk

Kendaric wrote: »

Once again... they need to bring softcaps back. When even Wrobel acknowlegdes that something is wrong...

Hybrids were not strong when we had soft caps. Not the solution you are looking for. Base game design has always made hybrids weaker.

Malitias

Kendaric wrote: »

Once again... they need to bring softcaps back. When even Wrobel acknowlegdes that something is wrong...

I'm also against softcaps, as it is a really cheap and uninspired way of promoting hybrids, rather than givining you a clean environment in which builds are on equal footing.
I don't think the game should promote hybrid builds any more than pure builds.
Current system: promotes pure builds
Soft caps: promotes hybrid (kinda)

???: promotes everything equally

Can we find "???"..?

hrothbern

Kendaric wrote: »

Once again... they need to bring softcaps back. When even Wrobel acknowlegdes that something is wrong...

Soft caps are very effective in preventing extreme (stacking) builds..... and effective in getting dull builds with little diversity.

The path chosen by ZOS, since already a long time, is much more interesting for us in terms of diversity,
and also much more challenging for the devs in terms of balancing.


I think removing soft caps was a brave choice,
* just like sticking to the rock-paper-scissors asymmetry
* just like developing Stamina, after our player feedback, to a full alternative of Magicka, instead of just Blocking, Breaking Free, etc
* just like keeping distinct differences between the 4 classes
* just like risking OP set combinations by unlocking all old sets to CP 160 and adding many more (most with weapons & jewelry), including many new Monster sets, the new Weapon Ultimates.

All of them together creating a fantastic environment for build and play-style diversity
but also a very, very difficult task to balance.
And we are in the middle of that balancing process.
And also because it will take quite a while before all new sets are acquired, and players have found the best combinations of Race-Class-Sets-Playstyle, we will have many months to go where the meta will move around from here to there.
Full balancing of this complexity cannot go faster than our players response time of using the new combinations possible.


From yesterday's AMA on Reddit it became clear that mDK will get positive attention.
And that the current meta stacking leading to the combo of high DPS & HPS is not to be nerfed but as first step balanced by making points in Health more valuable.
But also that Wrobel is not frightened off from the current complexity (and flak regarding balancing) and likes to add a 5th class line (the Warden with a Frost line and animal summons ?)
Even Hybrids were mentioned as having attention.


So to the questions of the OP
I think that diversity is continuously high on the agenda and that the current aberrations from diversity, the not so many meta's popular in PVP, are understood by the devs and will be tackled over time.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Diversity? Like how all stam DPS needs ti wear agility or VO jewellery or one of three medium armour sets (out of HOW many different sets?!) and must always only use critical daggers?

Surely you jest, there is no cookie cutter "gear up like this or you suck" build requirements... *cough*

Mashille

Anyone remember 1.5?

alephthiago

Magicka and stamina pools should not be part of the damage calculation

Mandragora

Pandorii wrote: »

I wanted to add a quote from Wrobel from today's AMA:

"Our goal is to make it more valuable to spend points in health instead of just going all magicka or stamina. The reason this is so powerful is you're getting to deal more damage and heal yourself for more by maxing offensive stats. The current design is still in progress, so l don't have concrete details for you right now."

It may contribute to the discussion.

It doesn't necessarily address the problem of hybrids, but it suggests that even the devs think the current system is not quite right.

If they are really going to work on that, I can forget about Crown boxes finally, because it looks like the devs really try to listen to the players and make the game better, maybe some of them even disagree with the marketing, so now I wish for them they would find the best solution. I would like to be able to play hybrid.

Teridaxus

It also doesn't help that damage and healing scales of the same stats
Oh you think im a glass cannon? Let me show you the power of rally and vigor. Maybe throw some ninja roll dodging on top of it.

Malitias

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

It also doesn't help that damage and healing scales of the same stats
Oh you think im a glass cannon? Let me show you the power of rally and vigor. Maybe throw some ninja roll dodging on top of it.

I don't think being able to perform two roles at the same time is a bad thing. In fact it's what makes this game unique by breaking the focused holy trinity religion (tank/dd/heal) in which you are dedicated to only one of these roles. Adding another role like "control" and being able to perform more than one of these is a very important selling-point IMO.

Healing and damage scaling from the same stat is one way to achieve this. While I am not sure if it's the perfect way, it certainly does achieve it.

To summarize, I disagree with you that being able to perform more than one role is a problem, while the way it is currently achieved is certainly debatable (which is part of this dicussions goal).

altemriel

Malitias wrote: »

The way the game currently works suggests going completely into stamina OR magicka as your maximum stam/mag increases the numbers on the skills. Nothing new here.

1st question: Do you think this is a good system?

2nd question (answer: yes): What benefits does this system offer? (answer: no): How would you like to change it and with which purpose?

As you can imagine, I dislike the current system as it makes hybrid builds(stam AND mag) very complicated and niche to use and almost entirely useless in end-endgame content.
What I'd like to see is the maximum resource having no impact on the damage to give the player more freedom in creating unique builds.
What are your thoughts about it?

hybrid build are possible (Pelinay set, hakeijo glyphs, etc...), but for sure they will not beat pure stam or pur mag builds.

I have no problem with that. Maybe ZOS should introduce more sets, that would boost more attributes at once, that would be nice.

Malitias

altemriel wrote: »

hybrid build are possible (Pelinay set, hakeijo glyphs, etc...), but for sure they will not beat pure stam or pur mag builds.

I have no problem with that.

If you say it's possible, but then say they will not beat pure stam or pure mag builds it sounds like a contradiction to me.
I'm fine with ppl saying they don't have a problem with pure builds being the way to go, because I see how that makes build choices alot easier for the player.

altemriel wrote: »

Maybe ZOS should introduce more sets, that would boost more attributes at once, that would be nice.

Items alone are not the solution, I think, because that would make hybrids more gear dependant than other builds. I believe a change in the games core mechanics needs to happen to resolve this.

Bobby_V_Rockit

These arent the slashies, these are the purebreds... these guys are the real deal.

Peekachu99

Health (renamed: fortitude or endurance), should scale Defensive-oriented powers: shields, runes, added length or power to CC. *Possibly even healing, see below.
Magika can scale heals and direct-magika based attacks.
Stamina the same as the above, though for its respective skills.

Right now Healh scales like 3 skills in the game and nearly everyone in PVP or PVE uses shields (Mag) or evasion and rolling (Stam), with just enough health to not get a one or two shotted. Possibly even move healing output into the Endurance category and bring back the concept of battle clerics: who can't dps a foe for beans, but can keep themselves and others alive quite well with huge health pools, heavy armor and shields. That would at least force three basic types of specialization instead of the two we currently have. Redefining the resources more in this way would also be fair to hybrids without being too OP--since there's going to be trade offs somewhere. We could see some really interesting builds with this in place and sets like Pelinials (or whatever it's called) would make a lot more sense.

Alucardo

alephthiago wrote: »

Magicka and stamina pools should not be part of the damage calculation

That's pretty much what kills it for Hybrids and the "could have been promising" Pelinal's set

Malitias

So, for the sake of steering the discussion in the right direction I'll suggest a little.. well, suggestion.

1st. Remove maximum from the calculation of skills, unless it's the specific goal of the skill. For example self- shielding depending on maximum health.
The goal is to prevent stacking the resource increase damage and sustain at the same time, and also making resources simply what the name suggests. A resource. For the effect we have a different stats.

2nd. Change base regen to be a percentage of the maximum value.
Hear me out about this one. I know at first this may sound like a contradiction to the goal of the first suggestion, but let's look at numbers here.
For example we have 100 Sta and 100Mag, which would (hypothetically) result in 10 Sta and 10 Mag regen, totalling 20 "resource points"(RP). 10% of Maximum.
Now let's say we have another 100 points to spend and put everything in one stat, for exampe Sta. The result is, of course, 200 Sta and100Mag, resulting in 20 Sta and 10 Mag regen. That's 30 RP.
If contribute them evenly we would have 150 Sta and 150 Mag, 15 Sta and 15 Mag regen, resulting in, again, 30 RP.

A "problem" is still how heavy attacks and their resource generation works. This still promotes purebloods over half-breeds, but I think the mechanic is fine. There should be a difference between purebloods and half-breeds after all.
My question to you now is what you think would be a good idea for hybrids to generate their two resources, while still preserving a distinction between the two?
EDIT: On second thought, do you think hybrids actually need something more to generate recourses? Purebloods (Yes, I do find it funny using these words) tend to cap out on their other resource which results in "wasted" resources, which probably won't happen to half-breeds.

Lord Xanhorn

I think the solution would be to combine spell power and weapon power into the same stat. That way I could build a hybrid or a pure build and have the same stats.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

The current system is fine. A pure build offers higher damage. The game originally forced hybrid builds upon stam users or they could choose to only use weapon line skills which made them a weaker dps class. The game has moved in a direction for making pure builds easier to make.

While I respect the the choice some make with going with a hybrid build, as you pointed out they are fairly weak, though a newer crafted set does help. I think it would be bad for the game to the current base game at the detriment of pure builds as it would do the same thing OP does not like, it would force hybrid builds and as such would be much more limiting that the current game design.

Even when the game launched, hybrid builds were weaker. It is why magika builds shined early on, they could more easily build for pure magika.

you would still have pure builds because aside from ONE set option your still going to dump into spell or weapon power and have far superior dps from one stat. the change would just allow you to put some points in other attributes. early on, so many core mechanics were different thats hardly relevant.

Malitias

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

I think the solution would be to combine spell power and weapon power into the same stat. That way I could build a hybrid or a pure build and have the same stats.

I agree that this would achieve the intention. I'm not so sure about whether or not it's the way to go. If you look at how weapons already affect weapon skills and spells evenly, it would certainly be in line with your suggestion. But isn't it important to be able to specialize into weapons or spells, if you wish to? Or is building stamina and/or magicka enough of a specialization?

Solariken

No, it's a terrible system. My 2-step plan to fix the design is as follows:

1. Make damage scale either by weapon/spell damage only OR make damage scale via (max stamina + max magicka /2).

2. Redesign armor skill lines to be useful for magicka and stamina as suggested in this thread:. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/292368/armor-skill-line-re-design-is-needed