ZOS Claims to Use "Hard Data" for Balancing

Thelon

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Feedback from everyone is one very important part, but we also look at hard data and how a change would affect every other part of the game.

Honestly Gina, I've enjoyed many conversations with you and various Devs since Beta. But the claim that you're using "hard data" to determine the affects of various changes is laughable considering the current state of your game.

*****

What hard data did you examine when balancing the CP system? Do passives like unchained look balanced to you?

What hard data did you examine when implementing Battle Spirit, especially in relation to class defining skills like Dragon Blood?

What hard data did you use when implementing a no CP campaign? Did you adjust Streak / Dodge penalties to compensate for 0 CP PvP?

What hard data did you use when implementing crutch sets like Shield breaker? Did you adjust this set after nerfing sorc shields?

What hard data did you use when setting shield duration at 6 seconds? Are your matrices showing an acceptable number of MagSorcs in Cyrodiil?

What hard data did you use when implementing proc sets like Valendrith and Viper? Do you feel these sets increase or decrease the importance of player skill in ESO?

What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?

What hard data did you use when buffing Soul Assault? Is another long-range, undodgeable beam encouraging or discouraging smart counter-play in ESO's PvP?

What hard data did you use that allowed gap closers to exist in their current state? Has banning players for using a mechanic you developed helped to address the underlying mechanical issues?

What hard data did you use to balance Masters and Maelstrom weapons for Magicka and Stamina users? Do you feel that Magicka users benefit from their vMA weapons as much as Stamina users do from theirs?

What hard data did you use when deciding that multiple poisons should apply on one person? Do you feel zerglings need additional advantages to be successful in 20 v 2 situations?

What hard data did you use when implementing Rally and Vigour? Do you feel stam builds need a burst heal from their offensive weapon (Rally) and a passive heal (Vigour) whose ticks surpasses a DKs burst heal?

What hard data did you use when deciding that Bound Armor would remain a toggle? That Storm Atronach would be the only Atronach in the game that can be CC'd?

What hard data did you reference that led you to decide that Streak should be the only CLASS DEFINING SKILL in the game that punishes the user for casting it more than once? Why is the same not true for other class defining skills like cloak, BoL and Wings?

*****

I hope you understand why the community might have a tough time understanding your use of "hard data." The current state of ESO leads me to believe that either:

a) you don't use hard data, or
b) you do use hard data, but lack the competence to use it effectively, or
c) you do use hard data and have the competence to use it effectively, but lack the monetary incentive to do so

"Men are more important than tools. If you don't believe so, put a good tool into the hands of a poor workman."
- John J. Bernet

Robbmrp

I could not find a thing that I would disagree with..... Well said

Ferrofluid

Tbh I feel that the shield nerf actually made shield breaker easier for me to deal with - I don't have to wait 20 seconds for my shield to go down as they machine gun me with their bow

edited: for typos

DivinityDay

Poetry.

DODHitman

Awesome and well said!

coolermh

Agreed!

acw37162

Reading the responses to what amounts an articulate rage post reminds of wizards first rule.

Preyfar

Thelon wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Feedback from everyone is one very important part, but we also look at hard data and how a change would affect every other part of the game.

What hard data did you use to balance Masters and Maelstrom weapons for Magicka and Stamina users? Do you feel that Magicka users benefit from their vMA weapons as much as Stamina users do from theirs?

Maelstrom DW are just obscenely overpowered, and even people who use them on a regular basis will agree. With DOT builds, VMA sharpened/precise can add 10K+ do your DPS with a decent rotation. No other weapons can do that. None.

Don't get me wrong, I like the raw power that they provide, but freely admit the DPS provided by DW Maelstrom is obscene compared to that of any other VMA weapon.

xellink

I think she meant...

"We implement to create hard data, then make minor adjustments from there."

---

That said....

No CP campaign is requested by popular demand. Many players rather it be rolled out buggy than be delayed for 6 months. This allows easier adjustment and a faster way to reach the end-goal.

just half a year ago HA was literally useless. Placing one very powerful HA... is probably more experimental than for balancing. Every item is overpowered when its new and shiny. After which it gets its nerf bat.

Magsorcs aren't too bad... at one point everyone was a nightblade.

Shieldbreaker... well u did not compliment them for nerfing sorc shields... decrease population of sorc shields = decrease use of shieldbreaker = may not be useful in the current metagame? No reason to nerf it.

6 months ago soul assault was not very popular.

As for gap closers... i think its probably spaghetti code which requires a lot of developer time and investment to correct.

multiple poisons apply on one person = Experimental. -> they probably said lets add it and see what happens

Punishing streak i believe is to limit lightning animations in cyro. Cyro was a hellhole when imperial city first came out.

as to VMA weapons being OP is because.... it encourages players to buy their most expensive DLC.

---

Its far cheaper to be reactive than proactive. New game features can also be released quicker that way.

Grymmoire

Hard data to make decisions?

QuebraRegra

I want ZOS and the game to be successful, so much this... and a million other things.

*shakes head*

Not the first game I've seen severely impacted by the decisions of some of it's development team. A purge/correction has to happen, eventually.

RoamingRiverElk

Excellent list. (Though I can't agree re: wings)

Armitas

What ever system they are using to perceive the actual state of the game is either broken or vastly incomplete. The game they perceive and apply their design choices too isn't the game we are playing. At any rate, hard data should assist a conclusion not provide it.

Thelon

acw37162 wrote: »

articulate rage post

leepalmer95

The hard data when zos decided the average player pvp's for like an hour a day? Or was it a week?

Pretty basic to exclude the anomaly's in a data and those level 12's who run out once then afk for 40 mins before logging off shouldn't count towards data.

Kas

imho their "hard data" consist over averages over players, no normalized by online time.
thus, whereas we, as players, see a lot of those that spend much time in the game, their "data" suggest what thousand of not-actually-eso-players do when they log in once a week through steam or their consule ui.
it's the only way all of their decisions make sense. they are slow to follow trends but they do so eventually - just like casual gamers.

there are still masses of mag nb's motivated by TG zerg bombing videos, there are still tons of magicka sorcs (because it's such an obvious archetype). it's just that those don't play the game as much because of how little success they have.... buit if you lvoe to look at non-discounted averages, those count just as much as your friendly 11m AP per campaign no-lifer

Berenhir

Actually there is nearly nobody ever pvping. Its not like there were thousands of people roaming cyrodiil every day. Its more like some hundred. And half of them are there every day.

This games pvp is dead and buried.

Humatiel

I suspect that the hard data they are using is from total number of players per X days. Say if a player logs in once per month they are included in the hard data poll. That is where we are seeing the somewhat fantastical statements from ZoS.

Rohamad_Ali

There's a Star Trek next generation joke just begging to be a meme but would be most inappropriate .

leeux

"HARD DATA" lol

In an inherently non-linear environment like an MMO (and this MMO particularly, with it's complex systems intertwined) using "hard data" without a model serves no purpose.

And a model based on the wrong assumptions, or even on the wrong understanding, is worse than using your brains and common sense.

That's the problem with this current "google generation" that thinks that data crunching trumps over thinking and understanding Yeah! Let's rule the world by the means of excel spreadsheets!

Mr_Nobody

The guys lack "balls" to communicate the problems within their deps looks like. They can not be that blind and not see certain issues going on and do nothing about it. Or they are, which would be sad. But claims about using hard data to determine certain things is laughable.

I wonder when the patch Elder Stamina Online is coming out.

Majic

I guess there's more than one way to interpret hard data.

SleepyTroll

"Hard data" like most people to them don't use weapon enchants lol
They pool everyone together from a lvl 1- cp 3600 and they got from their data that most people don't use weapon enchants.
That is the kinda of data that brings balancing to this game. Hence why poisons are the way they are because of the data above.

magnusthorek

Very well written. I'd like to be like you when I grow up.

Solariken

Bravo, OP!

SanTii.92

Current state of game's balance is not nearly as close as catastrophic as you say.

Yes, I agree on some of your points, and tuning is definitely needed but balance is as good as ever was.

Funkopotamus

acw37162 wrote: »

Reading the responses to what amounts an articulate rage post reminds of wizards first rule.

Easy Zed..

Or you might be falling into the third rule

Toasted Toad Truth!

Yes the DEV's for ZOS have always made knee jerk reactions when it comes to nerfs and have went overboard with things on the CP design.. It is their own fault though.. CP system looked great on paper, but tossing this onto a game that was halfway built in the first place was the biggest mistake.

The only way that I would buy the whole "Hard Data" line about CP's is if they would have waited longer until the game was balanced as best as could be BEFORE ADDING an entire new leveling system ontop of the original.,.....

FearlessOne_2014

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Current state of game's balance is not nearly as close as catastrophic as you say.

Yes, I agree on some of your points, and tuning is definitely needed but balance is as good as ever was.

Actually the current state of the game's balance, does near catastrophic failures. I remind you of the other MMOs communities that was in denial going through this. Phase of catastrophic balancing issues.

Rift
DCUO
D&D Neverwinter
GW2
NA/EU's BDO
NA/EU's BnS

Those are just the MMO I witness go down this road. Which ended in ALL of them losing their communities. The servers in those MMOs are barely being kept up and running off of huge Pay to Win micro transactions models. Let me tell you something. I watched all of these MMO lose their communities, just over huge balancing issues. You know the ones that are getting worst and worst by the patch in ESO.

I am willing to bet that anyone with extensive MMO experience as a player will tell you. If ZOS do not correct it's balance issues soon. And allow the balancing issues to get worst. It will also become a MMO who's servers are only being kept alive by. Huge Pay to Win micro transaction models. Because of the lack of players. That's best case scenario. Worst case is that, they just pull the plug.

Mojmir

****'n mint

kaithuzar

it's always about the money

nk125x

Agree with OP - Current meta is all about the sets not the player skill