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ZOS, Please, Fix the Meta

ParaNostram
ParaNostram
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All that PvP consists of these days are stamina burst builds it seems. The meta is get in, get a quick CC, and hope they don't have enough stamina to break CC before you burst them down. What does this mean? PvP fights become a matter of who has more stamina and who has more burst damage. It's no fun. It's especially no fun as it gives stamina users an inherent advantage. Sure, you can overcome it with sheer skill (inb4 "git gud" replies) but to play anything other than a stamina burst build feels like you're not living up to your potential.

So Stamina has some of if not the best damage as well as a larger resource pool for the most important mechanic in PvP, the CC break. Well, certainly there must be some down sides, right? Let's go down the list of things that matter most in PvP combat.

Damage - incredible burst potential, especially if you are a Nightblade.
CC - Not as much as magicka users here, but every class has an inherent CC ability so they can just use their magicka pools for these (looking at NB ambush fear surprise attack spammers, as if that takes any creativity or skill).
Damage Mitigation - Shuffle stackers, dodge rollers, you can cheese your way to victory, though I don't think it's very fon to due (get it? fondue? inb4 "South Park did it" comments).
Maneuverability - Dodge roll and sprint, 'nough said.
Healing - This is a point in the Magicka users favor, but a skilled Stamina user can easily keep themselves topped off with Vigor and Rally.
Field control - Class dependent, but magicka sorcs seem to be the game here so a very talented and aware magicka sorc will have this ONE advantage here.

Simply put, Stamina users are on top right now. So long as the easiest way to win fights is to jump in, CC, and burst them down, the meta will always favor damage burst worsening the problem and Stamina users will always have the easiest time surviving due to their ability to CC break.

There needs to be something done to shift up the meta or give magicka users a little bit of an edge if we want to keep the DPS burst race meta in PvP. Personally, I would love to see a return of tank builds for longer engagements but it just isn't viable, it's less viable than magicka builds and more skill intensive and you just can't DPS through anyone's heals.
"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."

Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore

Waiting for the Necromancer class.
Order of the Black Worm
  • Unsent.Soul
    Unsent.Soul
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    Need a TL:DR version. All this has been said before. Everyone has their own opinions, people get mad, thread gets closed.
  • Bryanonymous
    Bryanonymous
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    # Make Bolt Escape Glass Cannon DPS Sorcerer Great Again
  • UltimaJoe777
    UltimaJoe777
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    Now I've seen it all... Someone asking the DEVS to take something ENTIRELY PLAYER DRIVEN into their own hands. What's next, shall we have Wrobel tell us what builds we HAVE to run?

    As for the TL;DR parts, just another one of those threads complaining about Stamina DPS builds...

    Min maxers choose what is the most effective mechanically speaking. This isn't entirely player driven, this is people seeing what is most effective and doing it as one play style is rewarded by far above all others.

    I'd say we have different definitions of "rewarded" there. And yes, the meta IS entirely player driven as THEY are the ones that work with what's provided. If you want something provided then you're not asking for anything related to the meta, you're just asking for changes to the game the meta can either take or leave alone. No change is guaranteed to be picked up by the meta, especially when they find it useless.
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • ParaNostram
    ParaNostram
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    I just want to see more variety, that's all. I want this game to reflect one of the many aspects that have made TES games great, the ability to play however YOU want to play. However, in a competitive environment, playing anything other than the absolute best build will feel like playing with a handicap.
    "Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."

    Para Nostram
    Bosmer Sorceress
    Witch of Evermore

    Waiting for the Necromancer class.
    Order of the Black Worm
  • ParaNostram
    ParaNostram
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    Now I've seen it all... Someone asking the DEVS to take something ENTIRELY PLAYER DRIVEN into their own hands. What's next, shall we have Wrobel tell us what builds we HAVE to run?

    As for the TL;DR parts, just another one of those threads complaining about Stamina DPS builds...

    Min maxers choose what is the most effective mechanically speaking. This isn't entirely player driven, this is people seeing what is most effective and doing it as one play style is rewarded by far above all others.

    I'd say we have different definitions of "rewarded" there. And yes, the meta IS entirely player driven as THEY are the ones that work with what's provided. If you want something provided then you're not asking for anything related to the meta, you're just asking for changes to the game the meta can either take or leave alone. No change is guaranteed to be picked up by the meta, especially when they find it useless.

    You're right, we do have different definitions of the word rewarded, or at least different ideas of what should and should not be rewarded. Skillful play should be rewarded, not getting lucky with your timing. It's simple, whoever has the most stamina and burst damage wins.
    "Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."

    Para Nostram
    Bosmer Sorceress
    Witch of Evermore

    Waiting for the Necromancer class.
    Order of the Black Worm
  • UltimaJoe777
    UltimaJoe777
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    I just want to see more variety, that's all. I want this game to reflect one of the many aspects that have made TES games great, the ability to play however YOU want to play. However, in a competitive environment, playing anything other than the absolute best build will feel like playing with a handicap.

    Well I'm no competitive player so I always feel my builds do fine provided they actually do well. I don't care if my DPS is 5k or 50k as long as I can get the job done as I intended with my build.

    As for the rest of what you said, I agree. I'm all about variety and play your way! I'd also be on board with the "power creep is a problem" train if anyone ever brought it up.
    Edited by UltimaJoe777 on August 30, 2016 10:01PM
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • SirDopey
    SirDopey
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    I can't really agree with the OP here. Yes - I find my stamina builds are better for one v one or ganking people. But its magicka all the way when it comes to nuking groups. Yeah - my stamina NB has insane burst damage, but my magicka NB really isn't all that far behind and has far higher sustain when it comes to healing and resource management (can break cc without affecting ammunition). Overload is still OP has all hell. Magicka templars - most of the older players have learnt to adapt to the BoL changes and these guys are back to nuisance levels again, I'll simply ignore a magicka templar now if its a 1 v 1 situation and I'm not on mine as the healing is so strong. The only class I can't really comment on is DK as I haven't played a DK in over a year, it does seem like I run into a lot more stam DKS than magicka though.

    Tank builds - I'm not sure how much researching builds or talking other people you've done but these are still very possible. Nord templars running Fasallas and Malubeth still has to be one of the most cancerous builds out at the moment

    I really don't think there is any one class / build that is the single handed go to for PVP - or not at least in PC | NA Trueflame anyway.
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • Forestd16b14_ESO
    Forestd16b14_ESO
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    So nerf stamina thread got it. Any thing new you wanna add ?
    "A sword wields no strength unless the hand that holds it has courage."
    "It's the warrior not the weapon that decides the battle ."
    #StopOneTamriel
  • Egonieser
    Egonieser
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    All that PvP consists of these days are stamina burst builds it seems. The meta is get in, get a quick CC, and hope they don't have enough stamina to break CC before you burst them down. What does this mean? PvP fights become a matter of who has more stamina and who has more burst damage. It's no fun. It's especially no fun as it gives stamina users an inherent advantage. Sure, you can overcome it with sheer skill (inb4 "git gud" replies) but to play anything other than a stamina burst build feels like you're not living up to your potential.

    So Stamina has some of if not the best damage as well as a larger resource pool for the most important mechanic in PvP, the CC break. Well, certainly there must be some down sides, right? Let's go down the list of things that matter most in PvP combat.

    Damage - incredible burst potential, especially if you are a Nightblade.
    CC - Not as much as magicka users here, but every class has an inherent CC ability so they can just use their magicka pools for these (looking at NB ambush fear surprise attack spammers, as if that takes any creativity or skill).
    Damage Mitigation - Shuffle stackers, dodge rollers, you can cheese your way to victory, though I don't think it's very fon to due (get it? fondue? inb4 "South Park did it" comments).
    Maneuverability - Dodge roll and sprint, 'nough said.
    Healing - This is a point in the Magicka users favor, but a skilled Stamina user can easily keep themselves topped off with Vigor and Rally.
    Field control - Class dependent, but magicka sorcs seem to be the game here so a very talented and aware magicka sorc will have this ONE advantage here.

    Simply put, Stamina users are on top right now. So long as the easiest way to win fights is to jump in, CC, and burst them down, the meta will always favor damage burst worsening the problem and Stamina users will always have the easiest time surviving due to their ability to CC break.

    There needs to be something done to shift up the meta or give magicka users a little bit of an edge if we want to keep the DPS burst race meta in PvP. Personally, I would love to see a return of tank builds for longer engagements but it just isn't viable, it's less viable than magicka builds and more skill intensive and you just can't DPS through anyone's heals.

    I beg to disagree, my magicka NB has much higher survivability and utility than my stamblade, it's one of the reasons I switched back to magicka build (and even changed my race from Bosmer to Altmer for this exact reason). Sure I enjoyed the burst cheese kills, but it's a very boring way to play and also - one wrong move and I'm dead - whereas on magicka I have much more utility and self-sustain and defensive options. Yeah, I can't one shot people anymore, but I also don't die from one shot cheese blades anymore.
    The worst enemy of a stamina night blade is a magicka night blade - they simply can't touch me and have no counters against me because everything they do, I can do better aside from less DPS/burst.
    Sometimes, I dream about...cheese...

    Dermont - v16 Pompous Altmer Sorcerer (With a very arrogant face!)
    Egonieser - v16 Nord Stamina Dragonborn Wannabe
    Endoly - v16 Tiny Redguard Sharpened MaceBlade
    Egosalina - v16 Breton Cheesus Beam Specialist
    Egowen - v16 Dunmer Whipping Expert (Riding crops eluded her)
    (Yes, I had to grind all these to v16)
    Akamanakh - lvl 22 Khajiit GankBlade (Inspired by Top Cat)
    Targos Icewind - lvl 34 Imperial (Future) Jabplar
    (CP 830+)

    PC - EU
  • Beerbong_Ginn
    Beerbong_Ginn
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    5VE5xs6.jpg
    __________________________________________________
    The Drunkard Knights
    Cosmergio Inebriato - Imperial Templar, Ebonheart Pact
    Lucretia Inebriato - Imperial Dragonknight, Ebonheart Pact
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    Belladonna Faleri - Imperial Sorcerer, Aldmeri Dominion
    Drinks-under-tables - Argonian Templar, Daggerfall Covenant
    Koh'rona gra-Beerchugger - Orc Nightblade, Daggerfall Covenant
    The Beerwench - Nord Warden, Ebonheart Pact
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    Mama'Meretrix - Dunmer Sorcerer, Ebonheart Pact
    Mama'Ignitus - Dunmer Templar, Ebonheart Pact
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    Faeliinyth - Bosmer Warden, Ebonheart Pact
    Byress Ginerva - Breton Warden, Ebonheart Pact
    Twitch: www.twitch.tv/beerbong_ginn Twitter: @BeerbongGinn
    __________________
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  • AzraelKrieg
    AzraelKrieg
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    5VE5xs6.jpg

    Oh god damn it Ginny xD
    Gold Dragons Guildmaster PC-NA

    CR1000+
    Kalthar Wolf-Brother – EP Templar - 50
    Maeli Valen - EP NB - 50
    Naps-During-Trials – EP Templar - 50
    Jorleif the Bear-King - EP DK - 50
    Ko'Shariba-do - EP Sorc - 50
    Azrael Krieg - EP NB – 50
    Uvithasa Telvanni – EP DK – 50
    More-Tail - EP Warden - 50
    Narile Galen - EP Sorc - 50
    Az the Bulwark of Skål - EP Warden - 50
    Rilasi Sedas - EP Warden - 50
    Rayna Andalen - EP Templar - 50
  • UltimaJoe777
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    5VE5xs6.jpg

    So very true... :|
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • Saucy_Jack
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    Here's the thing about asking for a rebalance of whatever builds are in vogue at any given point in time; the simple truth that overrides any other truth:

    Minmaxing, at the very core of its raison-d'etre, does not care about build variety; it only cares about maximizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses, and it cares about doing so with brutal efficiency.


    There are a bajillion sets in this game, and each set combo provides a build that would possibly be good at doing certain things. For instance, a Fiord's set paired with well-fitted Darkstride provides a great set for farming mats. Though again, we're talking minmaxing. For a minmaxed farming build, it might be (I honestly don't know) that bolt escape + vamp speed + speed pots turns out to be better, so rather than stack medium armour, sprint reduc and stamina for running around, a better farming loadout might stack magicka and spell cost reduc so bolt escape can be cast more readily. Again, just an example.

    With that said, MOST minmaxers aren't concerned about minmaxing farming efficiency, they're either concerned with a) PvE killing efficiency, or most likely, b) PvP killing efficiency. And the math-erati have, though various tests and number crunches, deduced that for either of those cases, THIS build is the most efficient, or THAT build is. And all of a sudden, people who are interested in maximizing their PvE or PvP efficiency narrow their build choices to that narrow band of options. Why would they do any different?

    The ONLY way to avoid this narrowing of gear choices is to basically make all gear more or less equal in all measures. But not only would this remove the point of having different gear sets, I would imagine that the minmaxers would figure out even in those circumstances that THIS particular combo ups their DPS by 0.00001%, and would therefore use it instead of other options.

    So as it stands now, it's been deduced that the stam builds mentioned are the minmax FOTM. Asking ZOS to "rebalance" might change the flavour to something else, but there's nothing they could ever do that would remove FOTMs completely. To paraphrase Jurassic Park:

    "Minmaxers find a way. Minmaxers always find a way."
    ALL HAIL SNUGGLORR THE MAGNIFICENT, DAEDRIC KING OF THE RNG!
  • idk
    idk
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    @ParaNostram

    Everyone has enough stam to break a CC. CC immunity comes into play after that, though it is sometimes bugged (that is what Zos needs to fix).

    Magika users have significantly better shields than stam. This is also the defense against shuffle/dodge roll players. They kept Stam shields small due to PvP to balance it out.

    It comes down to figuring out how to build and fight the meta, not have it changed to meet how you currently play.
    Really, idk
  • acw37162
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    Well since it's actually a heavy armor meta im not sure the argument holds water.

    Especially since the best burst Zerg buster is still a bomb blade, IMO.
  • Waffennacht
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    I personally think what we are seeing in this meta is the leaning before the shift.

    For example: in MTG standard is a format (the most popular one) where only the two most recent blocks (of 3, so a total of 6 sets viable at time) when the first set of the block is released the meta massively changes (when a new first set of a block comes out the oldest block is removed (so 3 sets disappear when one is released.) This always bring a sharp imbalance.

    Why? Because that one set is balanced out by the rest of the block (that in this scenario has not yet been released) so players must wait till the rest of the block is released before they see a more true form of balance.

    I believe tamriel one along with the new 17monster sets and revamping of old ones, we will see other changes. Hopefully (if they are planning on bringing balance) we will see it then.
    Gamer tag: ShenronNacht NA Xbox One
    1100+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er
  • Egonieser
    Egonieser
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    5VE5xs6.jpg

    The meta will live on!
    Sometimes, I dream about...cheese...

    Dermont - v16 Pompous Altmer Sorcerer (With a very arrogant face!)
    Egonieser - v16 Nord Stamina Dragonborn Wannabe
    Endoly - v16 Tiny Redguard Sharpened MaceBlade
    Egosalina - v16 Breton Cheesus Beam Specialist
    Egowen - v16 Dunmer Whipping Expert (Riding crops eluded her)
    (Yes, I had to grind all these to v16)
    Akamanakh - lvl 22 Khajiit GankBlade (Inspired by Top Cat)
    Targos Icewind - lvl 34 Imperial (Future) Jabplar
    (CP 830+)

    PC - EU
  • OutcastOfDarkness
    I never really ran into a problem with it..but making mag builds more powerful is always great ;) XD
    Nord MagBlade DPS PVP/PVE/RP
    Ebonheart Pact FTW

    Guild:Dark Entity
  • THEDKEXPERIENCE
    THEDKEXPERIENCE
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    I fixed the meta already.

    Step 1: Ice Comet
    Step 2: Radiant Destruction
    Step 3: Vicious Death
    Step 4: Laugh at pile of blue bodies
  • Airyus
    Airyus
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    90% of top tier players and streamers main a stamina build. I'm also being generous with that number. What does that mean?
    Edited by Airyus on August 31, 2016 4:10AM
  • Ankael07
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    One thing about metas in mmorpgs are they will always be there cause of the perfect imbalance system that is actually healthy for an mmo.




    Although perfect imbalance is a must this is by far the worst imbalanced pvp I've ever experienced in an mmo.Metas changing drastically with each big patch, super cheesy item sets being introduced, exploiters doing their business for months sometimes, magicka dk being neglected by devs for the longest time etc. etc...
    If you want me to reply to your comment type @Ankael07 in it.
  • acw37162
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    Airyus wrote: »
    90% of top tier players and streamers main a stamina build. I'm also being generous with that number. What does that mean?


    It means guessing and math don't go together.

    Sypher is currently on magica bomb blade as well as a mag sorc.
    FengRush has been a stam sorc since before stam sorc was cool
    King Richard was a magica sorc and switches between several different builds but was building out a bomb blade on his stream yesterday.

    Those are just off the top checks. 33 is way short of 90.

  • NoMoreChillies
    NoMoreChillies
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    more pvp QQ

    isnt there a PVP forum?
    Insulting people on the internet is cowardly.
  • Airyus
    Airyus
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    acw37162 wrote: »
    Airyus wrote: »
    90% of top tier players and streamers main a stamina build. I'm also being generous with that number. What does that mean?


    It means guessing and math don't go together.

    Sypher is currently on magica bomb blade as well as a mag sorc.
    FengRush has been a stam sorc since before stam sorc was cool
    King Richard was a magica sorc and switches between several different builds but was building out a bomb blade on his stream yesterday.

    Those are just off the top checks. 33 is way short of 90.

    Top tier players AND streamers... And there are only three streamers? No.
  • ManDraKE
    ManDraKE
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    burst builds are the only way to kill the current heavyarmor+1h&s setup that everyone seems to be running, even magika builds can permablock, so any kind of pressure or DoT build is out of the picture, burst or die, there is no other way. Also burst builds with high AoE damage are good for zergbusting, if you kill the burst meta you are back to the unkilleable-zergball meta that ruined PvP on this game for over a year, i'm pretty sure eveyone remembers the steel batneedo zergball meta and the proxy det meta. Right now zergs have to think twice before stacking on crown.

    Is the current burst meta good? No, but is WAY better than we had before. So be careful with what you ask, the cure can be worst than the disease.
    Edited by ManDraKE on August 31, 2016 2:16PM
  • OdinForge
    OdinForge
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    All that PvP consists of these days are stamina burst builds it seems. The meta is get in, get a quick CC, and hope they don't have enough stamina to break CC before you burst them down. What does this mean? PvP fights become a matter of who has more stamina and who has more burst damage. It's no fun. It's especially no fun as it gives stamina users an inherent advantage. Sure, you can overcome it with sheer skill (inb4 "git gud" replies) but to play anything other than a stamina burst build feels like you're not living up to your potential.

    So Stamina has some of if not the best damage as well as a larger resource pool for the most important mechanic in PvP, the CC break. Well, certainly there must be some down sides, right? Let's go down the list of things that matter most in PvP combat.

    Damage - incredible burst potential, especially if you are a Nightblade.
    CC - Not as much as magicka users here, but every class has an inherent CC ability so they can just use their magicka pools for these (looking at NB ambush fear surprise attack spammers, as if that takes any creativity or skill).
    Damage Mitigation - Shuffle stackers, dodge rollers, you can cheese your way to victory, though I don't think it's very fon to due (get it? fondue? inb4 "South Park did it" comments).
    Maneuverability - Dodge roll and sprint, 'nough said.
    Healing - This is a point in the Magicka users favor, but a skilled Stamina user can easily keep themselves topped off with Vigor and Rally.
    Field control - Class dependent, but magicka sorcs seem to be the game here so a very talented and aware magicka sorc will have this ONE advantage here.

    Simply put, Stamina users are on top right now. So long as the easiest way to win fights is to jump in, CC, and burst them down, the meta will always favor damage burst worsening the problem and Stamina users will always have the easiest time surviving due to their ability to CC break.

    There needs to be something done to shift up the meta or give magicka users a little bit of an edge if we want to keep the DPS burst race meta in PvP. Personally, I would love to see a return of tank builds for longer engagements but it just isn't viable, it's less viable than magicka builds and more skill intensive and you just can't DPS through anyone's heals.
    Shuffle stackers

    Credibility gone.
    The Age of Wrobel.
  • hrothbern
    hrothbern
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    Airyus wrote: »
    90% of top tier players and streamers main a stamina build. I'm also being generous with that number. What does that mean?

    It could mean that the majority of players have not adapted yet to the new animals in the jungle.
    How to eat them.
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • QuebraRegra
    QuebraRegra
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    There has always been a "meta" and will always be.. Blame the playerbase, blame the game, the cause is somewhere in between.

    The fix is softcaps to defeat the min/max meta of the moment.
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