Is the Kena set suppose to be balanced or OP?

Bryanonymous

Wearing 1 item literally gives you the set bonuses that would require three items of another set. Yes, three. It gives both magic and weapon damage, from only one item. I'm trying to wrap my head around why they did this, because I don't want an item that doesn't match my crafting style choice, however this item seems too good to pass up. Explain why this item exists please.

Reverb

It's balanced fine as is.

One-piece Kena is good, but the 2-piece is really underwhelming in practice. It's why you see it shoved aside in favor of sets with a valuable second piece bonus. Or it's becoming increasingly more common to use sets with jewelry to make 2 5-piece sets and use master or maelstrom weapons, and not use a monster set.

Bryanonymous

Reverb wrote: »

It's balanced fine as is.

One-piece Kena is good, but the 2-piece is really underwhelming in practice. It's why you see it shoved aside in favor of sets with a valuable second piece bonus. Or it's becoming increasingly more common to use sets with jewelry to make 2 5-piece sets and use master or maelstrom weapons, and not use a monster set.

But from my count, 7 armor, 3 jewel, 1 weapon equals 11, so players can make 2 5 piece sets and also use the one item bonus. You didn't even explain why it is balanced for 1 piece of gear to have the same bonus as three set pieces. Go look at the sets, and see what each one does. Almost all of them have similar bonuses, except the two monster helm sets. All you did was say 'it's balanced'. What? That's it? Because you say it is?

Asmael

It is balanced to have spell power & weapon damage at the same time, because builds relying on both spell power and weapon are extremely underwhelming in terms of damage, exception made of Pelinal's Aptitude builds, who still get no extra benefit from using Kena over Velidreth (and even more sets soon), since they all focus on increasing their max weapon damage anyway.

I've been trying this set long enough to guarantee you that, yes, it has its place and is good in short, burst-centric fights (be it PvP or PvE), but the sustain issues coming with it also either make it extremely risky (PvP) or will force you to spam heavy attacks for the next 2 minutes (PvE).

Reverb

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

It's balanced fine as is.

One-piece Kena is good, but the 2-piece is really underwhelming in practice. It's why you see it shoved aside in favor of sets with a valuable second piece bonus. Or it's becoming increasingly more common to use sets with jewelry to make 2 5-piece sets and use master or maelstrom weapons, and not use a monster set.

But from my count, 7 armor, 3 jewel, 1 weapon equals 11, so players can make 2 5 piece sets and also use the one item bonus. You didn't even explain why it is balanced for 1 piece of gear to have the same bonus as three set pieces. Go look at the sets, and see what each one does. Almost all of them have similar bonuses, except the two monster helm sets. All you did was say 'it's balanced'. What? That's it? Because you say it is?

You must have skipped over the part where I said

2 5-piece sets and use master or maelstrom weapons

That's 11. If I have 2 full sets and have to choose between a Kena shoulder or a maelstrom weapon for my 11th, I'm picking the weapon. Every time. No contest. For most true end-game dps builds, Kena doesn't bring enough to the table to be slotted. The fact that it's the choice for mediocre builds is what forms my opinion that it's balanced.

MrTarkanian48

Asmael wrote: »

It is balanced to have spell power & weapon damage at the same time, because builds relying on both spell power and weapon are extremely underwhelming in terms of damage, exception made of Pelinal's Aptitude builds, who still get no extra benefit from using Kena over Velidreth (and even more sets soon), since they all focus on increasing their max weapon damage anyway.

I've been trying this set long enough to guarantee you that, yes, it has its place and is good in short, burst-centric fights (be it PvP or PvE), but the sustain issues coming with it also either make it extremely risky (PvP) or will force you to spam heavy attacks for the next 2 minutes (PvE).

^This

They created it to add both Weapon Damage and Spell Damage so that it can be equally useful to Stamina and Magic builds. However, 99% of players are really only using it to get one of the benefits (ex. a stam build benefits from the weapon damage, but has little to no benefit from the spell damage bonus and vice versa).

Sure, hybrid builds may receive a benefit from both, but hybrids are not competitive in difficult content. It is fine as is.

The only thing about monster helms that I find slightly unbalanced is that stam builds can use a 1 piece bloodspawn in order to get Stamina recovery, however, there is currently no 1 piece that provides magic recovery. It looks as though some of the new monster sets coming in One Tamriel will remedy this however.

Bryanonymous

Reverb wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

It's balanced fine as is.

One-piece Kena is good, but the 2-piece is really underwhelming in practice. It's why you see it shoved aside in favor of sets with a valuable second piece bonus. Or it's becoming increasingly more common to use sets with jewelry to make 2 5-piece sets and use master or maelstrom weapons, and not use a monster set.

But from my count, 7 armor, 3 jewel, 1 weapon equals 11, so players can make 2 5 piece sets and also use the one item bonus. You didn't even explain why it is balanced for 1 piece of gear to have the same bonus as three set pieces. Go look at the sets, and see what each one does. Almost all of them have similar bonuses, except the two monster helm sets. All you did was say 'it's balanced'. What? That's it? Because you say it is?

You must have skipped over the part where I said

2 5-piece sets and use master or maelstrom weapons

That's 11. If I have 2 full sets and have to choose between a Kena shoulder or a maelstrom weapon for my 11th, I'm picking the weapon. Every time. No contest. For most true end-game dps builds, Kena doesn't bring enough to the table to be slotted. The fact that it's the choice for mediocre builds is what forms my opinion that it's balanced.

Your argument is that because other OP weapons exist, it is balanced. Like saying Lamborgi's aren't OP in a street race because there are also Ferraris, but the majority of cars are Hondas and Toyotas. Why would anyone choose anything other than the super cars? The very fact that your argument implies that one thing is superior to Kena just exhibits that there is no balance. Completely ignoring the fact that 1 item gets the same benefit that other sets get for having 2. If anything, I've been convinced they are OP, which isn't too important. Just give me the option to change the style then.

Asmael

Since the issue arose due to a 1p having many bonuses, let's make a set with the most stats possible while still making sure it sees literally no competitive use, shall we? Ok, it's mostly because I have a lot of time, and I like the idea.

Let's call it Julianos' Rage of Hundings' Justice (mix of 2 well known DD sets) with an extra bonus thrown in, shortened JRHJ. As a reminder, Julianos and Hundings respectively give 300 Spell power and Weapon damage when maxed out (or 298, whatever, you get the point).

(2 items) Adds 688 Weapon Critical and Spell Critical
(3 items) Adds 484 Max Stamina and Max magicka
(4 items) Adds 688 Weapon Critical and Spell Critical
(5 items) Increase Weapon Damage and Spell Power by 258, and adds 129 Health Recovery.

3 notes about this set:
- The 3p has half stamina, half magicka when compared to the usual max stamina bonus (967)
- The 5p is slightly worse than Julianos for a pure magicka spec, and slightly worse than Hundings for a pure stamina spec (it's equivalent to 2 weapon damage and 2 spell power bonuses against 2.33~ for a either)
- It has a grand total of 10 normal bonuses, which makes this set give an absolutely crazy increase to stats overall for only 5 parts.

It's still a meh set, since it would mean it's supposed to be used by hybrid damage dealers, which are not competitive because of the current mechanics requiring you to also increase your maximum stamina or magicka to increase your damage, when it's simply not possible to reach the amounts of a specialized DD spec.

And this set should happen, just for the sake of it

Reverb

Asmael wrote: »

Since the issue arose due to a 1p having many bonuses, let's make a set with the most stats possible while still making sure it sees literally no competitive use, shall we? Ok, it's mostly because I have a lot of time, and I like the idea.

Let's call it Julianos' Rage of Hundings' Justice (mix of 2 well known DD sets) with an extra bonus thrown in, shortened JRHJ. As a reminder, Julianos and Hundings respectively give 300 Spell power and Weapon damage when maxed out (or 298, whatever, you get the point).

(2 items) Adds 688 Weapon Critical and Spell Critical
(3 items) Adds 484 Max Stamina and Max magicka
(4 items) Adds 688 Weapon Critical and Spell Critical
(5 items) Increase Weapon Damage and Spell Power by 258, and adds 129 Health Recovery.

3 notes about this set:
- The 3p has half stamina, half magicka when compared to the usual max stamina bonus (967)
- The 5p is slightly worse than Julianos for a pure magicka spec, and slightly worse than Hundings for a pure stamina spec (it's equivalent to 2 weapon damage and 2 spell power bonuses against 2.33~ for a either)
- It has a grand total of 10 normal bonuses, which makes this set give an absolutely crazy increase to stats overall for only 5 parts.

It's still a meh set, since it would mean it's supposed to be used by hybrid damage dealers, which are not competitive because of the current mechanics requiring you to also increase your maximum stamina or magicka to increase your damage, when it's simply not possible to reach the amounts of a specialized DD spec.

And this set should happen, just for the sake of it

You. I like you.

Ashtaris

It's balanced because everyone can have access to this set if they so desire. If you don't want to do the dungeon runs for the set, then they also become available at some point with the special Cyrodiil vendor and can be purchased with either AP or Gold. If you can't get the set through a bit of work, then that's nobodys fault but your own.

And considering the set provides both Weapon AND Spell damage, it's balanced because it offers some benefit to both Stamina or Magicka based users. So why the tears?

Bryanonymous

Ashtaris wrote: »

It's balanced because everyone can have access to this set if they so desire. If you don't want to do the dungeon runs for the set, then they also become available at some point with the special Cyrodiil vendor and can be purchased with either AP or Gold. If you can't get the set through a bit of work, then that's nobodys fault but your own.

And considering the set provides both Weapon AND Spell damage, it's balanced because it offers some benefit to both Stamina or Magicka based users. So why the tears?

Smh, the logic is truly amazing. Because everyone can have it, it is balanced. Brilliant.

MrTarkanian48

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

It's balanced because everyone can have access to this set if they so desire. If you don't want to do the dungeon runs for the set, then they also become available at some point with the special Cyrodiil vendor and can be purchased with either AP or Gold. If you can't get the set through a bit of work, then that's nobodys fault but your own.

And considering the set provides both Weapon AND Spell damage, it's balanced because it offers some benefit to both Stamina or Magicka based users. So why the tears?

Smh, the logic is truly amazing. Because everyone can have it, it is balanced. Brilliant.

What are you trying to balance it against? A crafted set piece?

I am not really sure what you are upset about.

1)Kena is OP? We've already determined that its not. Most end-game stam players don't use it and opt for Vicious Ophidian/TBS, or Vicious Ophidian/NMG with Maelstrom Weapons.

2) Are you upset that there is gear obtainable in the game that outperforms other gear? If that is the case I don't really know what to tell you. They put gear in the game that is obtainable by doing content. It creates an incentive to do said content. I don't think many people would be playing the game if all stam builds had to run hundings, and all magicka builds had to run Julianos.

3) If you are upset that you cannot alter the style from a cosmetic standpoint, then I can see your point there. It might be cool down the road if they let you convert dropped pieces to a different style. However, I don't think that is on most players top 20 ideal improvments list.

Bryanonymous

Im not upset. I just wanted to know if it is intentionally three times better than other sets which give the same perk for twice as many pieces plus another perk. The only answers given are pretty much 'it's balanced because it's suppose to be stronger than other sets or people wouldn't play' or 'X item works better so balance'. Ok then...

bowmanz607

It is a monster pc which is hard to get. Also, there are 2 pc sets that give weapon or spell damage

This pc gets both because they did not want to just give to mag or stam but to both groups to make it viable for all. Practically speaking no one utilizes both damage types.

Tormy

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Im not upset. I just wanted to know if it is intentionally three times better than other sets which give the same perk for twice as many pieces plus another perk. The only answers given are pretty much 'it's balanced because it's suppose to be stronger than other sets or people wouldn't play' or 'X item works better so balance'. Ok then...

I'm failing to see your logic? How is it OP?

Joy_Division

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Im not upset. I just wanted to know if it is intentionally three times better than other sets which give the same perk for twice as many pieces plus another perk. The only answers given are pretty much 'it's balanced because it's suppose to be stronger than other sets or people wouldn't play' or 'X item works better so balance'. Ok then...

No offense, but from this statement it is clear you do not have a strong grasp of gear and how combat plays out in ESO. But feel free to continue ignoring people who do that are trying to tell you otherwise.

Bryanonymous

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Im not upset. I just wanted to know if it is intentionally three times better than other sets which give the same perk for twice as many pieces plus another perk. The only answers given are pretty much 'it's balanced because it's suppose to be stronger than other sets or people wouldn't play' or 'X item works better so balance'. Ok then...

No offense, but from this statement it is clear you do not have a strong grasp of gear and how combat plays out in ESO. But feel free to continue ignoring people who do that are trying to tell you otherwise.

No offense but...

********

2 pieces > 1 piece. Example: Seducer gives one perk for 2 pieces. Kena gives 2 perks for 1 piece. Now, which one gives more for less? Yea, math is so hard. No offense, but it sounds like you have your head stuck in something, preventing you from seeing obvious logic.

As if you're some kind of master at understanding stats. Your arrogance blinds you from seeing elementary algebra. No offense but... (Proceed to say something subtly offensive and ignorant)

The pretentiousness... Smh.

bowmanz607

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Im not upset. I just wanted to know if it is intentionally three times better than other sets which give the same perk for twice as many pieces plus another perk. The only answers given are pretty much 'it's balanced because it's suppose to be stronger than other sets or people wouldn't play' or 'X item works better so balance'. Ok then...

No offense, but from this statement it is clear you do not have a strong grasp of gear and how combat plays out in ESO. But feel free to continue ignoring people who do that are trying to tell you otherwise.

No offense but...

********

2 pieces > 1 piece. Example: Seducer gives one perk for 2 pieces. Kena gives 2 perks for 1 piece. Now, which one gives more for less? Yea, math is so hard. No offense, but it sounds like you have your head stuck in something, preventing you from seeing obvious logic.

As if you're some kind of master at understanding stats. Your arrogance blinds you from seeing elementary algebra. No offense but... (Proceed to say something subtly offensive and ignorant)

The pretentiousness... Smh.

O geez. As I stated earlier. A player utilizes either spell damage or weapon damage. Not both. The 2 traits practically operates as one trait for Stam and one trait for mag depending on your build. It does not pigeon hole the user to one stat to benefit of each type of playstyle

Additionally, it is a monster helms. Monster pc are meant to give good 1pc and 2 pc bonuses.

His comment was not geared toward the obvious that 1 pc give two stats but was meant to show that you don't know how combat works in this game. I.e. weapon damage for Stam and spell damage for mag.

Totalitarian

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Im not upset. I just wanted to know if it is intentionally three times better than other sets which give the same perk for twice as many pieces plus another perk. The only answers given are pretty much 'it's balanced because it's suppose to be stronger than other sets or people wouldn't play' or 'X item works better so balance'. Ok then...

No offense, but from this statement it is clear you do not have a strong grasp of gear and how combat plays out in ESO. But feel free to continue ignoring people who do that are trying to tell you otherwise.

No offense but...

********

2 pieces > 1 piece. Example: Seducer gives one perk for 2 pieces. Kena gives 2 perks for 1 piece. Now, which one gives more for less? Yea, math is so hard. No offense, but it sounds like you have your head stuck in something, preventing you from seeing obvious logic.

As if you're some kind of master at understanding stats. Your arrogance blinds you from seeing elementary algebra. No offense but... (Proceed to say something subtly offensive and ignorant)

The pretentiousness... Smh.

I'm just saying...plenty of counterexamples to your 'elementary algebra'. Infinitely many, in fact.

Would not suggest you try to work this into a theorem.

Bryanonymous

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Im not upset. I just wanted to know if it is intentionally three times better than other sets which give the same perk for twice as many pieces plus another perk. The only answers given are pretty much 'it's balanced because it's suppose to be stronger than other sets or people wouldn't play' or 'X item works better so balance'. Ok then...

No offense, but from this statement it is clear you do not have a strong grasp of gear and how combat plays out in ESO. But feel free to continue ignoring people who do that are trying to tell you otherwise.

No offense but...

********

2 pieces > 1 piece. Example: Seducer gives one perk for 2 pieces. Kena gives 2 perks for 1 piece. Now, which one gives more for less? Yea, math is so hard. No offense, but it sounds like you have your head stuck in something, preventing you from seeing obvious logic.

As if you're some kind of master at understanding stats. Your arrogance blinds you from seeing elementary algebra. No offense but... (Proceed to say something subtly offensive and ignorant)

The pretentiousness... Smh.

O geez. As I stated earlier. A player utilizes either spell damage or weapon damage. Not both. The 2 traits practically operates as one trait for Stam and one trait for mag depending on your build. It does not pigeon hole the user to one stat to benefit of each type of playstyle

Additionally, it is a monster helms. Monster pc are meant to give good 1pc and 2 pc bonuses.

His comment was not geared toward the obvious that 1 pc give two stats but was meant to show that you don't know how combat works in this game. I.e. weapon damage for Stam and spell damage for mag.

I just can't even waste my energy on this forum. Too much arrogant elitism. I really hope the developers ignore this forum, because you people are blind.

bowmanz607

Bryanonymous wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Im not upset. I just wanted to know if it is intentionally three times better than other sets which give the same perk for twice as many pieces plus another perk. The only answers given are pretty much 'it's balanced because it's suppose to be stronger than other sets or people wouldn't play' or 'X item works better so balance'. Ok then...

No offense, but from this statement it is clear you do not have a strong grasp of gear and how combat plays out in ESO. But feel free to continue ignoring people who do that are trying to tell you otherwise.

No offense but...

********

2 pieces > 1 piece. Example: Seducer gives one perk for 2 pieces. Kena gives 2 perks for 1 piece. Now, which one gives more for less? Yea, math is so hard. No offense, but it sounds like you have your head stuck in something, preventing you from seeing obvious logic.

As if you're some kind of master at understanding stats. Your arrogance blinds you from seeing elementary algebra. No offense but... (Proceed to say something subtly offensive and ignorant)

The pretentiousness... Smh.

O geez. As I stated earlier. A player utilizes either spell damage or weapon damage. Not both. The 2 traits practically operates as one trait for Stam and one trait for mag depending on your build. It does not pigeon hole the user to one stat to benefit of each type of playstyle

Additionally, it is a monster helms. Monster pc are meant to give good 1pc and 2 pc bonuses.

His comment was not geared toward the obvious that 1 pc give two stats but was meant to show that you don't know how combat works in this game. I.e. weapon damage for Stam and spell damage for mag.

I just can't even waste my energy on this forum. Too much arrogant elitism. I really hope the developers ignore this forum, because you people are blind.

wow good sir. I guess ignorance is bliss.

Toc de Malsvi

All monster sets give you a 1 set that would normally be a 2 set for any other piece of gear, Kena is no different. Giving both weapon and spell damage would only be over powered if hybrid builds were any where near competitive but they are not. If you have a free slot for Kena then it is advantageous for DPS but it is not overpowered, it is stronger just as all monster sets are stronger, because they were all meant to give you 1 and 2 set bonuses where the other gear gives you 2,3,4,and 5 set bonuses.

FriedEggSandwich

This is repetition at this point but there are non-monster sets that offer both weapon and spell damage for the same bonus, kena isn't unique in this respect and others have adequately explained why this isn't op. I will admit that when kena 1st appeared on the scene I thought it was slightly op, but since then we've had bloodspawn, malubeth etc. Monster sets are tricky to farm and are supposed to offer nice bonuses. Right now kena and bloodspawn are the only sets I can think of that offer something other than hp as a 1 piece bonus, but this will undoubtedly change when more monster sets arrive. For the sake of argument the vMA weapons also offer weapon/spell damage as a 1 piece bonus.

Beardimus

Really don't get your point OP. At all, its a monster set, its good that's the point. Everyone can earn it if they want.

Who / how can you effectively use both Wep and Spell damage?? It's not a double dip, its Wep for Stam users and Spell for magika.

Have you used it? It sounds awesome until you see the resource drain, and game is all about sustain at the minute....

Bryanonymous

Forget about the second perk for a second...

1 piece gives the same benefits as 2 pieces of Torugs Pact. That's the point. How are you people so dense?

The next answer will be... 'Yea, it's suppose to be better.' FYI, that means there is not a balance. It's just better. You can't have both.

Some of you are saying two things that cannot go together. Either there is balance, or there are OP rewards to incentivize play.

Still not seeing my point? Something is wrong with you.

DerpyShadowz

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Forget about the second perk for a second...

1 piece gives the same benefits as 2 pieces of Torugs Pact. That's the point. How are you people so dense?

The next answer will be... 'Yea, it's suppose to be better.' FYI, that means there is not a balance. It's just better. You can't have both.

Some of you are saying two things that cannot go together. Either there is balance, or there are OP rewards to incentivize play.

Still not seeing my point? Something is wrong with you.

You cant really bring the balance subject in to it when you try to compare BiS End-game~ RNG loot to the most simplest crafted gear. There would be no point otherwise.

You are comparing an RNG drop set from completing a dungeon, To a Crafted set piece anyone can make with 3 traits learned. Of course Monster helms are going to offer better stats for less slots, Thats kind of the whole reason,value and design behind some of them.

I mean, MSA staff offers 189 spell damage (more then Kena 1pc) and increases weave damage all for 1 slot also.
Is this, undoubtedly one of the hardest RNG drops behind one of the hardest contents in the game unfair to offer such stats when comparing to a simple crafted set?

Everyone is wearing the same gear as it is, the game would be even more stale in build diversity if crafted gear and the hardest RNG related gear were offering the same stats.

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Im not upset. I just wanted to know if it is intentionally three times better than other sets which give the same perk for twice as many pieces plus another perk.

I mean, i think you already know the answer to your own question, I don't want to believe you are stupid enough to not realize the hardest dropped loot is intentionally better.

Bryanonymous

The argument about whether or not crafted gear deserves to be balanced is a whole different discussion. My question was about the intent of making this so much better, and yes, I pretty much got all the answers I expected. Forgive me for thinking there might be something I overlooked.

Brrrofski

Every monster set has a 1 piece bonus...

Granted, most are health, but that does essentially mean you can put less health elsewhere. Bloodspawn has regen, velidreth wd etc

They are dungeon rewards. I don't see your issue? You don't want anyone to have it because it doesn't match your armor? For real?

Bryanonymous

Brrrofski wrote: »

Every monster set has a 1 piece bonus...

Granted, most are health, but that does essentially mean you can put less health elsewhere. Bloodspawn has regen, velidreth wd etc

They are dungeon rewards. I don't see your issue? You don't want anyone to have it because it doesn't match your armor? For real?

Why do so many people assume someone has an issue when they ask a question. I have no issue. I don't care if the game is balanced. I just wanted to know if it intentionally stronger than other (crafted) sets. Seriously, you forum dwellers create these delusions in your head.

Well, maybe I do have an issue with being forced to use non-crafted sets without being able to change the style to match the rest of my armor. That's just lame.

Beardimus

The view on you having an issue is Mainly as your wording is pretty hostile.... Calling people dense is not cool. And either 'something is wrong' with everyone else or perhaps you have odd expectations of the positioning of the set as we all.seem to get it.

Put it this way what is the balance you are comparing to? Of course end game gear that's hard to get and bound is going to be better than a easy to make 2 piece set. You are not comparing apples to apples!!

It's like complaining that gear upgraded to Gold is better than Purple, you aren't comparing like for like.

If one set gave you 180 spell damage and another 120 weapon damage then you have a balance issue.

Besides to my point you may have missed who can make good use of both wep AND spell damage? It's not a double buff, its.this or that in most cases.

Bryanonymous

Beardimus wrote: »

The view on you having an issue is Mainly as your wording is pretty hostile.... Calling people dense is not cool. And either 'something is wrong' with everyone else or perhaps you have odd expectations of the positioning of the set as we all.seem to get it.

Put it this way what is the balance you are comparing to? Of course end game gear that's hard to get and bound is going to be better than a easy to make 2 piece set. You are not comparing apples to apples!!

It's like complaining that gear upgraded to Gold is better than Purple, you aren't comparing like for like.

If one set gave you 180 spell damage and another 120 weapon damage then you have a balance issue.

Besides to my point you may have missed who can make good use of both wep AND spell damage? It's not a double buff, its.this or that in most cases.

We is really relative to who frequents these particular forums. Don't assume that just because an ideal is popular, that it is the most rational. Humans prove that wrong every day.