We will be able to buy crown store items for others?

Avenias

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

This email is legitimate and related to a gifting program we're working on. We've sent it to only a small number of our players to start so we can get feedback and refine the program. If you're interested in helping us, please submit a Support ticket and we'll get you on the list!

12 updates for a gifting program, yes!!! Progress!

Marrtha

Oh wow now I wish I actually had friends that played. Would we be able to gift ESO+ as well? Because if that is so, I could get people into playing/playing more, which would be fantastic!

Lysette

CasNation wrote: »

Isn't this exactly what [a certain popular Korean MMO ported to the west] just did a month or so ago that pissed the entire player base off and encouraged BS P2W mechanics? Granted the cash shop items in ESO aren't as P2W as in the aforementioned game, but it still offers an avenue to convert real money to in game gold, and that is a a major major problem.

That is not necessarily a problem, in EVE you can do that simply by buying PLEX and selling them on the ingame market. This has never caused an issue in EVE and it is actually quite beneficial for the game, because PLEX is game time and so players, who do not want to pay for the sub with real money can buy PLEX from another player - so both sides have a benefit - one has now ingame money for having spent money on PLEX, and the other side can play the game without to have spent real money.

This is working out quite well in EVE since a long time - done right it is absolutely no problem.

And on topic - if I want to donate game time in EVE to another player, I just activate a plex, type in the name of the player and press the donate button - and he will immediately have 30 more days of subscription time on his account - a great way to reward players, who do a lot for a corporation (that is the guild equivalent in EVE), but are struggling with their subscription fee ever so often. I am all for having the ability to gift items and services to others.

nine9six

I'm down with this. Nothing stopping you from doing it already, outside of the game.

Marrtha

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Isn't this exactly what [a certain popular Korean MMO ported to the west] just did a month or so ago that pissed the entire player base off and encouraged BS P2W mechanics? Granted the cash shop items in ESO aren't as P2W as in the aforementioned game, but it still offers an avenue to convert real money to in game gold, and that is a a major major problem.

That is not necessarily a problem, in EVE you can do that simply by buying PLEX and selling them on the ingame market. This has never caused an issue in EVE and it is actually quite beneficial for the game, because PLEX is game time and so players, who do not want to pay for the sub with real money can buy PLEX from another player - so both sides have a benefit - one has now ingame money for having spent money on PLEX, and the other side can play the game without to have spent real money.

This is working out quite well in EVE since a long time - done right it is absolutely no problem.

And on topic - if I want to donate game time in EVE to another player, I just activate a plex, type in the name of the player and press the donate button - and he will immediately have 30 more days of subscription time on his account - a great way to reward players, who do a lot for a corporation (that is the guild equivalent in EVE), but are struggling with their subscription fee ever so often. I am all for having the ability to gift items and services to others.

Game time selling for in-game currency has been a thing in WoW since... Forever. Only recently they decided to make it not-bannable which has only helped the market and the players alike. Also in SWTOR you can buy things for coins which are bought with rl money, and then sell them again on the market for the ingame currency. Never heard anyone complaining a lot about it.

Elsonso

jeevin wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

ILLESTGLIDER wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

So, the opposition here is because people can, on the side, when ZOS is not looking, exchange Crowns or Crown Store items for cash, more than they paid for the Crowns, and in-game gold?

No need to do it without ZOS knowing. The point is that ZOS is considering allowing this so you can do it with their full knowledge and approval.

I may be dense, but it sounds like ZOS is considering allowing gifting of Crowns (already possible, but new if done through a game interface) and items purchase with Crowns (new feature). I am not seeing anything here that would indicate GOLD was being exchanged, unless players are doing it while ZOS is not looking.

If you can gift Crowns in game, you can trade for gold. So essentially you can now buy gold in a round about way? Thats how I read it.

Edit; punctuation

Yeah, but you can already do that today. This changes nothing of importance. It just makes it easier for the people who are NOT selling Crowns or Crown Items to freely exchange Crowns and Crown Items.

The CASH for GOLD trade has been in the game since launch. I am sure that the GOLD for CROWNS trade has been in the game since Tamriel Unlimited.

On top of that, the ability to GIFT someone Crowns has been possible since the launch of Tamriel Unlimited. Some guilds have Crowns as raffle prizes.

CasNation

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Isn't this exactly what [a certain popular Korean MMO ported to the west] just did a month or so ago that pissed the entire player base off and encouraged BS P2W mechanics? Granted the cash shop items in ESO aren't as P2W as in the aforementioned game, but it still offers an avenue to convert real money to in game gold, and that is a a major major problem.

That is not necessarily a problem, in EVE you can do that simply by buying PLEX and selling them on the ingame market. This has never caused an issue in EVE and it is actually quite beneficial for the game, because PLEX is game time and so players, who do not want to pay for the sub with real money can buy PLEX from another player - so both sides have a benefit - one has now ingame money for having spent money on PLEX, and the other side can play the game without to have spent real money.

This is working out quite well in EVE since a long time - done right it is absolutely no problem.

And on topic - if I want to donate game time in EVE to another player, I just activate a plex, type in the name of the player and press the donate button - and he will immediately have 30 more days of subscription time on his account - a great way to reward players, who do a lot for a corporation (that is the guild equivalent in EVE), but are struggling with their subscription fee ever so often. I am all for having the ability to gift items and services to others.

I can see your point, but my understanding is that EVE is a very different game compared to ESO, and has a very different market structure. I will say up front that I have never played EVE, but I have read a bit and think I have a very basic idea of how the game works. I'll start by pointing out that EVE does not have an effective limit on the number of functional corporations. As a comparison, ESO has a limit on the number of functional trade guilds at any one time, and a member limit on those guilds to boot. You can also steal from and kill other players (under certain circumstances), adding another avenue of wealth redistribution.

ESO does not have these features, allowing for gold to build up due to ineffective gold sinks. Now, imagine Bob the multimillionaire. He has over 10 million gold and continues to make more through the guild store system that prevents a majority of players from participating in high level trade. Now imagine Joe, a casual player who has a good job but not a lot of time to play. He would rather spend real money on things in game than farm gold to get what he wants. Bob on the other hand has more gold than he knows what to do with, and would much rather spend gold than real money for what he wants. A really cool mount comes out on the crown store, and Joe immediately buys one. Bob wants one too, but doesn't want to spend real money. So, Bob and Joe come to an agreement. Joe buys a mount for Bob, and and Bob gives Joe 1 million gold. Joe can now go buy that BiS gear he always wanted and get on with playing. He doesnt much care how much it costs, simce he has all the money he needs. Both parties got what they wanted, so everyone is happy, right? Well, except for Susan, another casual player like Joe, but she didn't want to trade real money for gold, so now she can't compete with Joe nearly as well as before when they were both equal. And she can't ever acquire the BiS gear because people like Joe have so much gold that they will pay top premiums for the gear, leading to inflation.

As a final point, granted spoken from my ignorance of EVE, EVE is designed to be unfair, to a degree. It is designed in such a way that not everyone is going to be equal, and that is okay because the system is suppossed to be like that. ESO is suppossed to be fair though. The game is designed so that people of equal skill and determination will be able to fairly compete with each other. As such, a system in ESO where you are effectively able to buy an advantage over another player (even indirectly) would be a very bad thing. This is why gold sellers are illegal in game, for this very reason.

Kalebron

OH this would be nice for that one friend who does not have the DLC so your group can complete a dungeon or trial.

Lysette

CasNation wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Isn't this exactly what [a certain popular Korean MMO ported to the west] just did a month or so ago that pissed the entire player base off and encouraged BS P2W mechanics? Granted the cash shop items in ESO aren't as P2W as in the aforementioned game, but it still offers an avenue to convert real money to in game gold, and that is a a major major problem.

That is not necessarily a problem, in EVE you can do that simply by buying PLEX and selling them on the ingame market. This has never caused an issue in EVE and it is actually quite beneficial for the game, because PLEX is game time and so players, who do not want to pay for the sub with real money can buy PLEX from another player - so both sides have a benefit - one has now ingame money for having spent money on PLEX, and the other side can play the game without to have spent real money.

This is working out quite well in EVE since a long time - done right it is absolutely no problem.

And on topic - if I want to donate game time in EVE to another player, I just activate a plex, type in the name of the player and press the donate button - and he will immediately have 30 more days of subscription time on his account - a great way to reward players, who do a lot for a corporation (that is the guild equivalent in EVE), but are struggling with their subscription fee ever so often. I am all for having the ability to gift items and services to others.

I can see your point, but my understanding is that EVE is a very different game compared to ESO, and has a very different market structure. I will say up front that I have never played EVE, but I have read a bit and think I have a very basic idea of how the game works. I'll start by pointing out that EVE does not have an effective limit on the number of functional corporations. As a comparison, ESO has a limit on the number of functional trade guilds at any one time, and a member limit on those guilds to boot. You can also steal from and kill other players (under certain circumstances), adding another avenue of wealth redistribution.

ESO does not have these features, allowing for gold to build up due to ineffective gold sinks. Now, imagine Bob the multimillionaire. He has over 10 million gold and continues to make more through the guild store system that prevents a majority of players from participating in high level trade. Now imagine Joe, a casual player who has a good job but not a lot of time to play. He would rather spend real money on things in game than farm gold to get what he wants. Bob on the other hand has more gold than he knows what to do with, and would much rather spend gold than real money for what he wants. A really cool mount comes out on the crown store, and Joe immediately buys one. Bob wants one too, but doesn't want to spend real money. So, Bob and Joe come to an agreement. Joe buys a mount for Bob, and and Bob gives Joe 1 million gold. Joe can now go buy that BiS gear he always wanted and get on with playing. He doesnt much care how much it costs, simce he has all the money he needs. Both parties got what they wanted, so everyone is happy, right? Well, except for Susan, another casual player like Joe, but she didn't want to trade real money for gold, so now she can't compete with Joe nearly as well as before when they were both equal. And she can't ever acquire the BiS gear because people like Joe have so much gold that they will pay top premiums for the gear, leading to inflation.

As a final point, granted spoken from my ignorance of EVE, EVE is designed to be unfair, to a degree. It is designed in such a way that not everyone is going to be equal, and that is okay because the system is suppossed to be like that. ESO is suppossed to be fair though. The game is designed so that people of equal skill and determination will be able to fairly compete with each other. As such, a system in ESO where you are effectively able to buy an advantage over another player (even indirectly) would be a very bad thing. This is why gold sellers are illegal in game, for this very reason.

Well, the difference is that in EVE there is nothing what would be "the best" - so a lot of money does not help you with anything really. You can even buy skill points now, from players who have extracted those from their characters and are going to sell them at the market - but this does as well not make you a better player - simply because what you need in the first place is 1. personal experience, which comes from playing the game ... and 2. friends, because without them you will not get any far in EVE. And both you cannot buy for money, so there is no advantage in being a whale in EVE - you are just making for a marvelous target with all your shiny bling in your shiny bling ship - money does not make you happy in EVE - and anyone has it anyway, just newbies are not multi-billionaires, the rest has a really good amount of ingame money at hand and a lot pay there subscription by buying PLEX from richer players. It is a win-win for both sides - and it eliminated gold-farming.

And CCP makes more money from PLEX as well - it is 5 bucks more expensive than a direct subscription - but PLEX can do more, it can be donated, it can be exchanged for Aurum for the cash shop and you can pay services like character transfer between accounts with it. And this makes even the cash shop accessible for people, who do not like to spend real money on it. It is a win win win situation even.

And no, EVE isn't unfair, it is about specializing in certain sectors - a combat-oriented newbie who specializes in a certain area might be able to take down a player, who is not that proficient in combat but might play for years. That people are different and specialize on different things makes the competition - not that all try to be the same like in ESO - to be special and proficient in what you do, makes it. And as well that EVE has no endgame makes it different - there are skills for over 22 years required to learn them - so no one really has even half of those.

BrianDavion

CasNation wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Isn't this exactly what [a certain popular Korean MMO ported to the west] just did a month or so ago that pissed the entire player base off and encouraged BS P2W mechanics? Granted the cash shop items in ESO aren't as P2W as in the aforementioned game, but it still offers an avenue to convert real money to in game gold, and that is a a major major problem.

That is not necessarily a problem, in EVE you can do that simply by buying PLEX and selling them on the ingame market. This has never caused an issue in EVE and it is actually quite beneficial for the game, because PLEX is game time and so players, who do not want to pay for the sub with real money can buy PLEX from another player - so both sides have a benefit - one has now ingame money for having spent money on PLEX, and the other side can play the game without to have spent real money.

This is working out quite well in EVE since a long time - done right it is absolutely no problem.

And on topic - if I want to donate game time in EVE to another player, I just activate a plex, type in the name of the player and press the donate button - and he will immediately have 30 more days of subscription time on his account - a great way to reward players, who do a lot for a corporation (that is the guild equivalent in EVE), but are struggling with their subscription fee ever so often. I am all for having the ability to gift items and services to others.

I can see your point, but my understanding is that EVE is a very different game compared to ESO, and has a very different market structure. I will say up front that I have never played EVE, but I have read a bit and think I have a very basic idea of how the game works. I'll start by pointing out that EVE does not have an effective limit on the number of functional corporations. As a comparison, ESO has a limit on the number of functional trade guilds at any one time, and a member limit on those guilds to boot. You can also steal from and kill other players (under certain circumstances), adding another avenue of wealth redistribution.

ESO does not have these features, allowing for gold to build up due to ineffective gold sinks. Now, imagine Bob the multimillionaire. He has over 10 million gold and continues to make more through the guild store system that prevents a majority of players from participating in high level trade. Now imagine Joe, a casual player who has a good job but not a lot of time to play. He would rather spend real money on things in game than farm gold to get what he wants. Bob on the other hand has more gold than he knows what to do with, and would much rather spend gold than real money for what he wants. A really cool mount comes out on the crown store, and Joe immediately buys one. Bob wants one too, but doesn't want to spend real money. So, Bob and Joe come to an agreement. Joe buys a mount for Bob, and and Bob gives Joe 1 million gold. Joe can now go buy that BiS gear he always wanted and get on with playing. He doesnt much care how much it costs, simce he has all the money he needs. Both parties got what they wanted, so everyone is happy, right? Well, except for Susan, another casual player like Joe, but she didn't want to trade real money for gold, so now she can't compete with Joe nearly as well as before when they were both equal. And she can't ever acquire the BiS gear because people like Joe have so much gold that they will pay top premiums for the gear, leading to inflation.

As a final point, granted spoken from my ignorance of EVE, EVE is designed to be unfair, to a degree. It is designed in such a way that not everyone is going to be equal, and that is okay because the system is suppossed to be like that. ESO is suppossed to be fair though. The game is designed so that people of equal skill and determination will be able to fairly compete with each other. As such, a system in ESO where you are effectively able to buy an advantage over another player (even indirectly) would be a very bad thing. This is why gold sellers are illegal in game, for this very reason.

but what if Susen is friends with Timmy, who has been playing the game for so long he just gifted her BiS gear because he happened to get some spare stuff? so yeah, some casuals right now do have better stuff then others just because they have friends who are happy to give that stuff to em.

CasNation

BrianDavion wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Isn't this exactly what [a certain popular Korean MMO ported to the west] just did a month or so ago that pissed the entire player base off and encouraged BS P2W mechanics? Granted the cash shop items in ESO aren't as P2W as in the aforementioned game, but it still offers an avenue to convert real money to in game gold, and that is a a major major problem.

That is not necessarily a problem, in EVE you can do that simply by buying PLEX and selling them on the ingame market. This has never caused an issue in EVE and it is actually quite beneficial for the game, because PLEX is game time and so players, who do not want to pay for the sub with real money can buy PLEX from another player - so both sides have a benefit - one has now ingame money for having spent money on PLEX, and the other side can play the game without to have spent real money.

This is working out quite well in EVE since a long time - done right it is absolutely no problem.

And on topic - if I want to donate game time in EVE to another player, I just activate a plex, type in the name of the player and press the donate button - and he will immediately have 30 more days of subscription time on his account - a great way to reward players, who do a lot for a corporation (that is the guild equivalent in EVE), but are struggling with their subscription fee ever so often. I am all for having the ability to gift items and services to others.

I can see your point, but my understanding is that EVE is a very different game compared to ESO, and has a very different market structure. I will say up front that I have never played EVE, but I have read a bit and think I have a very basic idea of how the game works. I'll start by pointing out that EVE does not have an effective limit on the number of functional corporations. As a comparison, ESO has a limit on the number of functional trade guilds at any one time, and a member limit on those guilds to boot. You can also steal from and kill other players (under certain circumstances), adding another avenue of wealth redistribution.

ESO does not have these features, allowing for gold to build up due to ineffective gold sinks. Now, imagine Bob the multimillionaire. He has over 10 million gold and continues to make more through the guild store system that prevents a majority of players from participating in high level trade. Now imagine Joe, a casual player who has a good job but not a lot of time to play. He would rather spend real money on things in game than farm gold to get what he wants. Bob on the other hand has more gold than he knows what to do with, and would much rather spend gold than real money for what he wants. A really cool mount comes out on the crown store, and Joe immediately buys one. Bob wants one too, but doesn't want to spend real money. So, Bob and Joe come to an agreement. Joe buys a mount for Bob, and and Bob gives Joe 1 million gold. Joe can now go buy that BiS gear he always wanted and get on with playing. He doesnt much care how much it costs, simce he has all the money he needs. Both parties got what they wanted, so everyone is happy, right? Well, except for Susan, another casual player like Joe, but she didn't want to trade real money for gold, so now she can't compete with Joe nearly as well as before when they were both equal. And she can't ever acquire the BiS gear because people like Joe have so much gold that they will pay top premiums for the gear, leading to inflation.

As a final point, granted spoken from my ignorance of EVE, EVE is designed to be unfair, to a degree. It is designed in such a way that not everyone is going to be equal, and that is okay because the system is suppossed to be like that. ESO is suppossed to be fair though. The game is designed so that people of equal skill and determination will be able to fairly compete with each other. As such, a system in ESO where you are effectively able to buy an advantage over another player (even indirectly) would be a very bad thing. This is why gold sellers are illegal in game, for this very reason.

but what if Susen is friends with Timmy, who has been playing the game for so long he just gifted her BiS gear because he happened to get some spare stuff? so yeah, some casuals right now do have better stuff then others just because they have friends who are happy to give that stuff to em.

Okay, sure, let's assume that for the moment, but realistically how many people do you think are in this situation? The same can be said for any of my situations as well, of course. They are all theoretical and constructed to make a point, in one way or another.

The issue comes from the fact that these situations are niche. Sure, there are some very decent arguments for allowing players to buy friends crown items with real money (I personally disagree with them, but I am very conservative on my views pertaining to lending or gifting money among friends, slippery slope and all that). The problem is that the situations I proposed exist too, and if this went through (as we understand the system will work), it would be sanctioned by ZOS, making these kinds of exchanges far more common than they currently are.

I am not proposing that this system would be entirely negative. I am saying that I think the system will have more negative impacts than the niche positive impacts it may provide, and on the whole will be unhealthy for the games economy and culture.

razzle1184kicks

Newbie: hi can you help me with WGT, New dungeons..sell me those mats.....etc...
Guy1:yeah sure but...
Newbie:I Will do anything
Guy1: buy me mount a or b from store and send it me.

Newbie: can I Join trail
Guy1: yeah buy me x y and z from crown store and send it me.


It may never happen but it could easily be abused and people may fall trap to it.

Manoekin

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

This email is legitimate and related to a gifting program we're working on. We've sent it to only a small number of our players to start so we can get feedback and refine the program. If you're interested in helping us, please submit a Support ticket and we'll get you on the list!

I would only suggest never selling crowns for a discounted price ever again. You will have players buying tons of crowns (they already do when there is a crown sale), waiting for the sale to end, and then trying to make a profit selling store items for less than the crown store price yet more than what they paid for their crowns.

*Gasps!*
I am sure The Monetization Department is horrified by the idea of players buying tons of crowns, thinking they are clever and making profit, as much as you are, and will do something about it as soon they stop laughing. For example place orders for new Ferraris.

Aren't you the smart one. Say there's a 50% sale on crowns, ZOS is now making 50% less money on any items bought with those crowns. This is the same as the current situation, yes? Now, how many players are going to pay full price for crowns when they are not on sale, when they can get that mount for 25% off from a 3rd party website? That's free money for the person doing it, and 50% less money for ZOS on those transactions. Those Ferraris aren't going to be staying for long if this is the idiocy I can expect from those people.

As for P2W accusations... I wouldn't compare this at all to BDO cash shop changes. It's the same thing essentially, but the two games are different in one aspect. In BDO the power of your character relates directly to how much in-game currency you can pump into it, but this is not the case in ESO. Gaining gold this way in ESO might buy you a new item set, but that's not something everyone doesn't already have really. And the item sets you buy are not going to be any better than the other item sets. This is why I don't have a problem with it, I just urge caution.

Lysette

CasNation wrote: »

BrianDavion wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Isn't this exactly what [a certain popular Korean MMO ported to the west] just did a month or so ago that pissed the entire player base off and encouraged BS P2W mechanics? Granted the cash shop items in ESO aren't as P2W as in the aforementioned game, but it still offers an avenue to convert real money to in game gold, and that is a a major major problem.

That is not necessarily a problem, in EVE you can do that simply by buying PLEX and selling them on the ingame market. This has never caused an issue in EVE and it is actually quite beneficial for the game, because PLEX is game time and so players, who do not want to pay for the sub with real money can buy PLEX from another player - so both sides have a benefit - one has now ingame money for having spent money on PLEX, and the other side can play the game without to have spent real money.

This is working out quite well in EVE since a long time - done right it is absolutely no problem.

And on topic - if I want to donate game time in EVE to another player, I just activate a plex, type in the name of the player and press the donate button - and he will immediately have 30 more days of subscription time on his account - a great way to reward players, who do a lot for a corporation (that is the guild equivalent in EVE), but are struggling with their subscription fee ever so often. I am all for having the ability to gift items and services to others.

I can see your point, but my understanding is that EVE is a very different game compared to ESO, and has a very different market structure. I will say up front that I have never played EVE, but I have read a bit and think I have a very basic idea of how the game works. I'll start by pointing out that EVE does not have an effective limit on the number of functional corporations. As a comparison, ESO has a limit on the number of functional trade guilds at any one time, and a member limit on those guilds to boot. You can also steal from and kill other players (under certain circumstances), adding another avenue of wealth redistribution.

ESO does not have these features, allowing for gold to build up due to ineffective gold sinks. Now, imagine Bob the multimillionaire. He has over 10 million gold and continues to make more through the guild store system that prevents a majority of players from participating in high level trade. Now imagine Joe, a casual player who has a good job but not a lot of time to play. He would rather spend real money on things in game than farm gold to get what he wants. Bob on the other hand has more gold than he knows what to do with, and would much rather spend gold than real money for what he wants. A really cool mount comes out on the crown store, and Joe immediately buys one. Bob wants one too, but doesn't want to spend real money. So, Bob and Joe come to an agreement. Joe buys a mount for Bob, and and Bob gives Joe 1 million gold. Joe can now go buy that BiS gear he always wanted and get on with playing. He doesnt much care how much it costs, simce he has all the money he needs. Both parties got what they wanted, so everyone is happy, right? Well, except for Susan, another casual player like Joe, but she didn't want to trade real money for gold, so now she can't compete with Joe nearly as well as before when they were both equal. And she can't ever acquire the BiS gear because people like Joe have so much gold that they will pay top premiums for the gear, leading to inflation.

As a final point, granted spoken from my ignorance of EVE, EVE is designed to be unfair, to a degree. It is designed in such a way that not everyone is going to be equal, and that is okay because the system is suppossed to be like that. ESO is suppossed to be fair though. The game is designed so that people of equal skill and determination will be able to fairly compete with each other. As such, a system in ESO where you are effectively able to buy an advantage over another player (even indirectly) would be a very bad thing. This is why gold sellers are illegal in game, for this very reason.

but what if Susen is friends with Timmy, who has been playing the game for so long he just gifted her BiS gear because he happened to get some spare stuff? so yeah, some casuals right now do have better stuff then others just because they have friends who are happy to give that stuff to em.

Okay, sure, let's assume that for the moment, but realistically how many people do you think are in this situation? The same can be said for any of my situations as well, of course. They are all theoretical and constructed to make a point, in one way or another.

The issue comes from the fact that these situations are niche. Sure, there are some very decent arguments for allowing players to buy friends crown items with real money (I personally disagree with them, but I am very conservative on my views pertaining to lending or gifting money among friends, slippery slope and all that). The problem is that the situations I proposed exist too, and if this went through (as we understand the system will work), it would be sanctioned by ZOS, making these kinds of exchanges far more common than they currently are.

I am not proposing that this system would be entirely negative. I am saying that I think the system will have more negative impacts than the niche positive impacts it may provide, and on the whole will be unhealthy for the games economy and culture.

As far as lending or borrowing from friends or family goes - never do that - if you are asked for money and you think that person is worth it, then give it away as a gift - this way you will keep your friend - if you expect to get it back, you will most likely loose that "friend" in one way or the other - that is why it is said so wisely "never a borrower or lender be".

Well, and to ask a friend for money is even worse - it is bringing him into a situation where there is no good solution, if he thinks you are not worth the money - and if he feels to be forced to lend it to you, even worse, he will not like you for having asked him - that's for sure.

So never do that - not one and not the other.

Edit: and on a side note, if you have to ask for money, you are probably not worth it anyway, because if you have to ask, you are showing with it, that you are incapable of managing your finances - and this is not implying trust in your capability to pay it back - so never ask.

CasNation

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

BrianDavion wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Isn't this exactly what [a certain popular Korean MMO ported to the west] just did a month or so ago that pissed the entire player base off and encouraged BS P2W mechanics? Granted the cash shop items in ESO aren't as P2W as in the aforementioned game, but it still offers an avenue to convert real money to in game gold, and that is a a major major problem.

That is not necessarily a problem, in EVE you can do that simply by buying PLEX and selling them on the ingame market. This has never caused an issue in EVE and it is actually quite beneficial for the game, because PLEX is game time and so players, who do not want to pay for the sub with real money can buy PLEX from another player - so both sides have a benefit - one has now ingame money for having spent money on PLEX, and the other side can play the game without to have spent real money.

This is working out quite well in EVE since a long time - done right it is absolutely no problem.

And on topic - if I want to donate game time in EVE to another player, I just activate a plex, type in the name of the player and press the donate button - and he will immediately have 30 more days of subscription time on his account - a great way to reward players, who do a lot for a corporation (that is the guild equivalent in EVE), but are struggling with their subscription fee ever so often. I am all for having the ability to gift items and services to others.

I can see your point, but my understanding is that EVE is a very different game compared to ESO, and has a very different market structure. I will say up front that I have never played EVE, but I have read a bit and think I have a very basic idea of how the game works. I'll start by pointing out that EVE does not have an effective limit on the number of functional corporations. As a comparison, ESO has a limit on the number of functional trade guilds at any one time, and a member limit on those guilds to boot. You can also steal from and kill other players (under certain circumstances), adding another avenue of wealth redistribution.

ESO does not have these features, allowing for gold to build up due to ineffective gold sinks. Now, imagine Bob the multimillionaire. He has over 10 million gold and continues to make more through the guild store system that prevents a majority of players from participating in high level trade. Now imagine Joe, a casual player who has a good job but not a lot of time to play. He would rather spend real money on things in game than farm gold to get what he wants. Bob on the other hand has more gold than he knows what to do with, and would much rather spend gold than real money for what he wants. A really cool mount comes out on the crown store, and Joe immediately buys one. Bob wants one too, but doesn't want to spend real money. So, Bob and Joe come to an agreement. Joe buys a mount for Bob, and and Bob gives Joe 1 million gold. Joe can now go buy that BiS gear he always wanted and get on with playing. He doesnt much care how much it costs, simce he has all the money he needs. Both parties got what they wanted, so everyone is happy, right? Well, except for Susan, another casual player like Joe, but she didn't want to trade real money for gold, so now she can't compete with Joe nearly as well as before when they were both equal. And she can't ever acquire the BiS gear because people like Joe have so much gold that they will pay top premiums for the gear, leading to inflation.

As a final point, granted spoken from my ignorance of EVE, EVE is designed to be unfair, to a degree. It is designed in such a way that not everyone is going to be equal, and that is okay because the system is suppossed to be like that. ESO is suppossed to be fair though. The game is designed so that people of equal skill and determination will be able to fairly compete with each other. As such, a system in ESO where you are effectively able to buy an advantage over another player (even indirectly) would be a very bad thing. This is why gold sellers are illegal in game, for this very reason.

but what if Susen is friends with Timmy, who has been playing the game for so long he just gifted her BiS gear because he happened to get some spare stuff? so yeah, some casuals right now do have better stuff then others just because they have friends who are happy to give that stuff to em.

Okay, sure, let's assume that for the moment, but realistically how many people do you think are in this situation? The same can be said for any of my situations as well, of course. They are all theoretical and constructed to make a point, in one way or another.

The issue comes from the fact that these situations are niche. Sure, there are some very decent arguments for allowing players to buy friends crown items with real money (I personally disagree with them, but I am very conservative on my views pertaining to lending or gifting money among friends, slippery slope and all that). The problem is that the situations I proposed exist too, and if this went through (as we understand the system will work), it would be sanctioned by ZOS, making these kinds of exchanges far more common than they currently are.

I am not proposing that this system would be entirely negative. I am saying that I think the system will have more negative impacts than the niche positive impacts it may provide, and on the whole will be unhealthy for the games economy and culture.

As far as lending or borrowing from friends or family goes - never do that - if you are asked for money and you think that person is worth it, then give it away as a gift - this way you will keep your friend - if you expect to get it back, you will most likely loose that "friend" in one way or the other - that is why it is said so wisely "never a borrower or lender be".

Well, and to ask a friend for money is even worse - it is bringing him into a situation where there is no good solution, if he thinks you are not worth the money - and if he feels to be forced to lend it to you, even worse, he will not like you for having asked him - that's for sure.

So never do that - not one and not the other.

Exactly. That it part of my personal, not mechanical, disagreement with the system. I think it opens the door for way too many situations where people are capable of either begging things that cost real money off of "friends" or just downright purchasing of gold indirectly. Gold is devalued enough in this game already, and I really don't want to see real-world economic divides impacting the performance of players in this game beyond what is already happening.

Lysette

CasNation wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

BrianDavion wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Isn't this exactly what [a certain popular Korean MMO ported to the west] just did a month or so ago that pissed the entire player base off and encouraged BS P2W mechanics? Granted the cash shop items in ESO aren't as P2W as in the aforementioned game, but it still offers an avenue to convert real money to in game gold, and that is a a major major problem.

That is not necessarily a problem, in EVE you can do that simply by buying PLEX and selling them on the ingame market. This has never caused an issue in EVE and it is actually quite beneficial for the game, because PLEX is game time and so players, who do not want to pay for the sub with real money can buy PLEX from another player - so both sides have a benefit - one has now ingame money for having spent money on PLEX, and the other side can play the game without to have spent real money.

This is working out quite well in EVE since a long time - done right it is absolutely no problem.

And on topic - if I want to donate game time in EVE to another player, I just activate a plex, type in the name of the player and press the donate button - and he will immediately have 30 more days of subscription time on his account - a great way to reward players, who do a lot for a corporation (that is the guild equivalent in EVE), but are struggling with their subscription fee ever so often. I am all for having the ability to gift items and services to others.

I can see your point, but my understanding is that EVE is a very different game compared to ESO, and has a very different market structure. I will say up front that I have never played EVE, but I have read a bit and think I have a very basic idea of how the game works. I'll start by pointing out that EVE does not have an effective limit on the number of functional corporations. As a comparison, ESO has a limit on the number of functional trade guilds at any one time, and a member limit on those guilds to boot. You can also steal from and kill other players (under certain circumstances), adding another avenue of wealth redistribution.

ESO does not have these features, allowing for gold to build up due to ineffective gold sinks. Now, imagine Bob the multimillionaire. He has over 10 million gold and continues to make more through the guild store system that prevents a majority of players from participating in high level trade. Now imagine Joe, a casual player who has a good job but not a lot of time to play. He would rather spend real money on things in game than farm gold to get what he wants. Bob on the other hand has more gold than he knows what to do with, and would much rather spend gold than real money for what he wants. A really cool mount comes out on the crown store, and Joe immediately buys one. Bob wants one too, but doesn't want to spend real money. So, Bob and Joe come to an agreement. Joe buys a mount for Bob, and and Bob gives Joe 1 million gold. Joe can now go buy that BiS gear he always wanted and get on with playing. He doesnt much care how much it costs, simce he has all the money he needs. Both parties got what they wanted, so everyone is happy, right? Well, except for Susan, another casual player like Joe, but she didn't want to trade real money for gold, so now she can't compete with Joe nearly as well as before when they were both equal. And she can't ever acquire the BiS gear because people like Joe have so much gold that they will pay top premiums for the gear, leading to inflation.

As a final point, granted spoken from my ignorance of EVE, EVE is designed to be unfair, to a degree. It is designed in such a way that not everyone is going to be equal, and that is okay because the system is suppossed to be like that. ESO is suppossed to be fair though. The game is designed so that people of equal skill and determination will be able to fairly compete with each other. As such, a system in ESO where you are effectively able to buy an advantage over another player (even indirectly) would be a very bad thing. This is why gold sellers are illegal in game, for this very reason.

but what if Susen is friends with Timmy, who has been playing the game for so long he just gifted her BiS gear because he happened to get some spare stuff? so yeah, some casuals right now do have better stuff then others just because they have friends who are happy to give that stuff to em.

Okay, sure, let's assume that for the moment, but realistically how many people do you think are in this situation? The same can be said for any of my situations as well, of course. They are all theoretical and constructed to make a point, in one way or another.

The issue comes from the fact that these situations are niche. Sure, there are some very decent arguments for allowing players to buy friends crown items with real money (I personally disagree with them, but I am very conservative on my views pertaining to lending or gifting money among friends, slippery slope and all that). The problem is that the situations I proposed exist too, and if this went through (as we understand the system will work), it would be sanctioned by ZOS, making these kinds of exchanges far more common than they currently are.

I am not proposing that this system would be entirely negative. I am saying that I think the system will have more negative impacts than the niche positive impacts it may provide, and on the whole will be unhealthy for the games economy and culture.

As far as lending or borrowing from friends or family goes - never do that - if you are asked for money and you think that person is worth it, then give it away as a gift - this way you will keep your friend - if you expect to get it back, you will most likely loose that "friend" in one way or the other - that is why it is said so wisely "never a borrower or lender be".

Well, and to ask a friend for money is even worse - it is bringing him into a situation where there is no good solution, if he thinks you are not worth the money - and if he feels to be forced to lend it to you, even worse, he will not like you for having asked him - that's for sure.

So never do that - not one and not the other.

Exactly. That it part of my personal, not mechanical, disagreement with the system. I think it opens the door for way too many situations where people are capable of either begging things that cost real money off of "friends" or just downright purchasing of gold indirectly. Gold is devalued enough in this game already, and I really don't want to see real-world economic divides impacting the performance of players in this game beyond what is already happening.

Well there is a pretty easy solution to this, which basically all wealthy people use - ignore them, you do not give money to anyone, who asks for it - not even to a friend or family member - if you would start like this, where is the boundary then, you would have to give to all who ask after a while, because you could not tell them why you gave to that person and not to him. There is no end to this and you would get poor quickly - so they all handle it in the same way - never give anything to someone who asks for it. If this is a gift you want to make, that is a different thing, but there it is as well good, to ask before you gift it, to not insult someone, who would not be fond of being treated like he/she would need the money.

Edit:

Some german pubs have signs which say in broken german:

if I don't give you credit, you will be mad at me.
If I would give you credit, you won't come back and I will be mad at you.
Better, you will be mad at me.

Skcarkden

Man.... so many people are complaining about a positive thing because "Wah, convert crowns to gold, waaaaaaah wah"

Call me crazy but i assumed this system wouldn't be like trading in-game but more like "select which person to send gift to, once you hit accept it will be sent to them" like pretty much all other games/platforms with a gifting system, so if that is the case, then any conversion to gold that might take place would be down in as a trust trade, don't most games ban trust trading on principle to protect themselves from the kids who fall victim crying?

Just remind people that it's a risk, don't omit that detail when complaining that now supposedly eveyrone will be converting crowns to gold like it's 100% safe.