Reactions to Criticism

Mashille

Sometimes on the forums, when someone criticizes something that ZOS does, a decision they make or something they do there are a number or responses defending ZOS' actions or supporting what they did. Many of these annoy when I read them so I'm just going to go over a couple that annoy me the most when I read them.

In addition a lot of people who provide criticism to something ZOS does are not hating on the game or trying to be rude or offensive towards the developers, they are simply providing feedback so that the game can improve because they want the game to improve and get better. Most likely because they like the game and / or are passionate about it and want to see it develop further into the future.

Edit: There are still unjustified threads where people's posts are not constructive but I'm only really talking about valid threads here getting these responses.

1: Anyway the first response to criticism is a old but Golden statement that I have read more times than I would have liked to and it's the classic:

'Well You make a better one then'. 'You make a better game'. 'You work out how to fix the bugs'. 'You create a system that isn't exploitable'

And to be honest. I'm not really sure how to respond to this because all I can think of is:



No one is saying that they could make a better version. However in many cases people have come up with great and implementable concepts for the game which could work really well anyway. Also many things like this that are replied to in this way has a problem that could have been found out through QA testing and people get annoyed as how were these specific issues etc not found through QA testing, if they were testing the system thoroughly.

2: This next one I had on my own thread a while back. It was the 'Well, if you don't like it just ignore it. How hard is it?' response.

Again, my response looks a bit like this:



And of course! Why should we ever expect things to made made well or to actually work? It's not like we should actually expect high quality items from our money. After all, how dare we ask for quality for our cash? And sometimes when replies like this are posted, they are stated to be the most obvious answer ever, like anyone complaining are just stupid because they should just ignore it. And sometimes people feel the need to end their statements with little things like this: '¯\_(ツ)_/¯' to make them look smarter than everyone else.


3: And the final one that vexes me is the 'It's meant to be like that, you just don't understand or need to L2P.'

And all I can really do when I see this one is:



People talk about how the issue presented is not an issue at all and how it is only and issue for you as you do not understand the game well enough or need to L2P. When in most scenarios the issue presented is a real issue that shows lack of QA testing from Zenimax or lazy implementation with little effort going into making something work properly or effectively. Yet so many people will defend Zenimax's actions despite what is clearly wrong with it or needs fixing.

And once again people sometimes feel the need to show themselves are bigger or smarter than everyone else by ending their posts in a little condescending statement that makes the person presenting the issue look stupid or small. This can be taken offensively by some people, it may not be an outright insult, but it is still something that can hurt someone when it is clearly meant to make them look stupid. Such as when someone rights a response disagreeing with you and dismissing some of your points then ends his post like this: 'Don't worry. You'll get it eventually.' in a clearly condescending manner meant to make the person feel stupid.

Anyway. Not entirely sure why I made this thread, but I just thought I'd point out some of the things that annoy me when I see them on the forums.

Anhedonie

Mashille wrote: »

'Well You make a better one then'. 'You make a better game'. 'You work out how to fix the bugs'. 'You create a system that isn't exploitable'

Don't have to be a cook to tell if food is ***.

Elfbait

One of my favorite stupid responses that I see a lot of here is the self-righteous cry of "FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS, OMG" to any criticism of the game, no matter how mildly worded. Like, we're on an MMO forum...for talking about MMOs. Where else might these issues be raised?

If you'd rather be discussing cancer cures or global sustainability concerns, you really shouldn't be here.

Farmerr

Mashille wrote: »

However in many cases people have come up with great and implementable concepts for the game which could work really well anyway.

I often wonder how many times someone actually posts an incredible idea/concept/solution here on the forums but ZOS never hears or cares about it because it gets lost in the noise of all the aforementioned posts and posts that degrade into conversations about practically nothing.

magictucktuck

I don't mind when people give feedback on the good things or negative things but seems like a lot of people do make personal attacks at ZOS.. Then basically everything after that is ignored.. But some people do give good feedback. But no one including ZOS cares about the person saying holy *** who made this POS game how stupid can ZOS be?!

Moonscythe

Well, you know what? I hate when there is a complaint about something related to quality of (game) life and the master-race immediately try to squash all discussion because it isn't about something important like LAG or broken this or that in Cyrodil or other end game areas. Frankly, when those complaints come, the poster may think that they are giving constructive criticism or "just pointing out a problem" but it often points long fingers at the developers and I kind of understand Rich Lambert then.

Mojmir

Ep1kMalware

Mashille wrote: »

Many times on the forums, when someone criticizes something that ZOS does, a decision they make or something they do there are a number or responses defending ZOS' actions or supporting what they did. Many of these *** me off to no end when I read them so I'm just going to go over a couple that annoy me the most when I read them.

In addition most people who provide criticism to something ZOS does are not hating on the game or trying to be rude or offensive towards the developers, they are simply providing feedback so that the game can improve because they want the game to improve and get better. Most likely because they like the game and / or are passionate about it and want to see it develop further into the future.

1: Anyway the first response to criticism is a old but Golden statement that I have read more times than I would have liked to and it's the classic:

'Well You make a better one then'. 'You make a better game'. 'You work out how to fix the bugs'. 'You create a system that isn't exploitable'

And to be honest. I'm not really sure how to respond to this because all I can think of is:



No one is saying that they could make a better version. However in many cases people have come up with great and implementable concepts for the game which could work really well anyway. Also many things like this that are replied to in this way has a problem that could have been found out through QA testing and people get annoyed as how were these specific issues etc not found through QA testing, if they were testing the system thoroughly.

2: This next one I had on my own thread a while back. It was the 'Well, if you don't like it just ignore it. How hard is it?' response.

Again, my response looks a bit like this:



And of course! Why should we ever expect things to made made well or to actually work? It's not like we should actually expect high quality items from our money. After all, how dare we ask for quality for our cash? And sometimes when replies like this are posted, they are stated to be the most obvious answer ever, like anyone complaining are just stupid because they should just ignore it. And sometimes people feel the need to end their statements with little things like this: '¯\_(ツ)_/¯' to make them look smarter than everyone else.


3: And the final one that vexes me is the 'It's meant to be like that, you just don't understand or need to L2P.'

And all I can really do when I see this one is:



People talk about how the issue presented is not an issue at all and how it is only and issue for you as you do not understand the game well enough or need to L2P. When in most scenarios the issue presented is a real issue that shows lack of QA testing from Zenimax or lazy implementation with little effort going into making something work properly or effectively. Yet so many people will defend Zenimax's actions despite what is clearly wrong with it or needs fixing.

And once again people sometimes feel the need to show themselves are bigger or smarter than everyone else by ending their posts in a little condescending statement that makes the person presenting the issue look stupid or small. This can be taken offensively by some people, it may not be an outright insult, but it is still something that can hurt someone when it is clearly meant to make them look stupid. Such as when someone rights a response disagreeing with you and dismissing some of your points then ends his post like this: 'Don't worry. You'll get it eventually.' in a clearly condescending manner meant to make the person feel stupid.

Anyway. Not entirely sure why I made this thread, but I just thought I'd point out some of the things that annoy me when I see them on the forums.

it's not a matter of critisizm for me, it's how it is presented. If presented intelligently, I can often agree with the op. These threads a few and far between.

More commonly I see either bad players upset becaude they didnt get what they wanted with very little effort, or it's just a flamebait rhetorical post trying to get a bunch of mindless postscounts as they can.

Undeniably there are certain issues with the forum community, zenimax communication to said community, and how zos (at least appears to) handle certain gameplay issues. For me its all about presentation.

You wouldnt go to court and convince a jury by screaming at the judge? Likewise, you can't go to court amd sue for compensatiom by ignoring the issue. I'm not suggesting taking zos to court, my example is merely trying to highlight that calm, level headed discussion tends to get people further.

there is one other issue that permeates from the game onto the forums, and that is general stupidity. By this, I intend to say people get mad, offended/offensive over things that are not at all offensive. This such as 'your methods are ineffective for this content'. People take arms to it like their life is in danger, why? This behavior is in no way intelligent at all.

Similarly, on the forums; people become offended the exact second you say something they disagree with, become blind to anything in the post that could be seen as a valid point, and repeat rhetoric.


As far as general complaints go in the forums, I think Machaivelli says it well:

Good works generate the same level of hatred as evil ones.

He had a fair bit to say about people in general that quite frankly I agree with, but that's not for here.

Directing one of his quotes at zos:

'many will see who you appear to be, few will actually see you for who you truly are', along with 'to stay successful, your demeanor must change constantly with the times'.

Who are you appearing to be zenimax? And ehat do you plan on doing about it?

ConeOfSilence

You could hand out gold bars to ppl and they will still complain.

Mojmir

ConeOfSilence wrote: »

You could hand out gold bars to ppl and they will still complain.

they're too heavy!!!

starkerealm

Farmerr wrote: »

Mashille wrote: »

However in many cases people have come up with great and implementable concepts for the game which could work really well anyway.

I often wonder how many times someone actually posts an incredible idea/concept/solution here on the forums but ZOS never hears or cares about it because it gets lost in the noise of all the aforementioned posts and posts that degrade into conversations about practically nothing.

Also, a lot of the "incredible idea/concept/solutions" we see on these boards are flat out unworkable. They may sound like a cool idea, but far more often than not, they'd open the door to hilariously severe exploits.

STEVIL

yeah i have to agree the problem with these forums is not enough negative criticism of the game and zos...

wait... what... no?


i would like to respectfully disagree with the OP but i cant. there isn't enough there to disagree with... OP is objecting to what is being described as inappropriate responses but only giving the responses, not the original statements being responded to. So there is zero foundation for comparison - zero - or assessment.

But on a broader sense, if one believes the problem this forum has is too much pro-zos counter-criticism posting.... you are reading it in a language I am not.

LrdRahvin

starkerealm wrote: »

Farmerr wrote: »

Mashille wrote: »

However in many cases people have come up with great and implementable concepts for the game which could work really well anyway.

I often wonder how many times someone actually posts an incredible idea/concept/solution here on the forums but ZOS never hears or cares about it because it gets lost in the noise of all the aforementioned posts and posts that degrade into conversations about practically nothing.

Also, a lot of the "incredible idea/concept/solutions" we see on these boards are flat out unworkable. They may sound like a cool idea, but far more often than not, they'd open the door to hilariously severe exploits.

I agree, there are MORE than enough hilariously severe exploits as it stands thanks to ZOS all by themselves.

Beardimus

Yep see these comments alot. But often its actually warrantied. And that sounds harsh to the OP, but often they are just not getting the point.

I've had a few of those comments on my posts, but on reflection they were all right. I was annoyed at the time but generally but was more experienced players who knew much more about that section of the game than me, and were actually right (which I only realise after playing more)

Those lines are generally directed at someone having a moan, someone that wont listen To another way of doing things, or some hair-brained scheme on how to make the game better (this forum is full of very creative people with lots of ideas, im amazed that people feel its going to do anything by posting them, beyond a feeling they are not listened to. Hell what other Console game do you get a say in lol)

Im not having a go at you OP, I see the comments, and I see people react to them. But generally when you look objectively at the thread they are correct.

Maybe L2P should be L2PTGAIII Learn To Play This Game As It Is Intended lol.

Take AH. Every month or so the same people start a thread to moan about wanting a AH. And the community respond with all the reasons why you don't need one. And basically say L2P, as they are correct. But the OP's get upset as they want a WoW AH and thus feel hurt and kick off. But really, the people that get trading have learn how to play it, in this game, and thus L2P is an appropriate comment. It just feels harsh. But its not..

Mashille

@STEVIL

My bad i didn't fully explain when I react top these types of comments. Yeah, there are a number of non constructive posts with people being angry about something.

I'm not saying there isn't enough negative threads, it's just that quite a few of them are justified. I think they get overwhelmed by the number of non constructive threads.

Also @Beardimus I dunno, maybe I'm too soft because I read things on people's posts and I think to myself ' that's a bit harsh.' XD

Pandorii

OP, one rebuke against criticism I"m getting tired of seeing is "they need to make money to improve their game." The idea is that if we subscribe and spend money on their sometimes overpriced items, they can use that money to improve the quality of the game, rather than using normal principles of economics and spending your money on a quality product.

notimetocare

Pandorii wrote: »

OP, one rebuke against criticism I"m getting tired of seeing is "they need to make money to improve their game." The idea is that if we subscribe and spend money on their sometimes overpriced items, they can use that money to improve the quality of the game, rather than using normal principles of economics and spending your money on a quality product.

Bit of a strawman. Most of the time that is abreaponse to "well im going to stop subbibg/buying until they fix the game" no money, no mmo so it is a pretty valid rebuke

mildlylucid

Seems like a L2P issue to me.

Mashille

@mildlylucid

I was waiting for one of these XD

mildlylucid

@Mashille

I'm here to please

Zamuro

Lol... these are exactly the answers i get when i make a thread in a game's forum to give feedback how to improve it or something. Banana IQ answers

Carbonised

@Mashille I agre entirely with your original post here.

I guess part of it is internet phenomenon, and part of it is most people on these forums seem to be angry teens and kids who cannot abide anyone having a different opinion than their own.

Also, in a game like this where buffs and nerfs are handed out regularly, and somewhat arbitrarily, I guess much of the outcry and harshness comes from the fact that every imbalance makes someone profit and thrive. Every imbalance has someone at the losing end, and someone at the winning. Thus when someone goes on the forums and point out an imbalance, or suggest a new way to balance things, those on the current winning side are suddenly afraid of losing their advantage, that attention will be drawn to that specific issue, and ZOS will target their nerf hammer there next.

Thus it is better to silence the one pointing to the issue, basically saying "there is nothing to see here, l2p" etc.

See the current discussions that keep cropping up here on the weaknessof magicka vs stamina. Pretty much everyone agrees that stamina is superior in this current state of the game, yet there are still some tenacious stamina users that are afraid to loose their advantage, who try to shut down the discussion, either by pointing out the completely irrelevant issue that magicka was more powerful some time in the past, or by playing the "l2p" card.

This is just one example, but there are many others. A competitive game like this one caters to selfish people, and selfish people will always put their own needs and desires before any constructive discussion or dialogue.

ADarklore

Here is what I hate... ZOS 'fixes' a bug they find, and suddenly people are up in arms that they suddenly can't succeed, that suddenly the game got insanely more difficult for them, and in the end, many of them state the 'bug' claim by ZOS is actually a 'conspiracy' against players formulated by ZOS.

My thoughts on complaints... a little bit of logic goes a long ways and I see fewer and fewer logical complaints and more 'emotional' complaints by people.

bunnytrix

There are a lot of people here (and I mean a lot) who are personally insulted every time there is a negative comment/thread about the game. They will jump on every thread that criticizes the game in any way and defend it over and over again, often with insults and hatred towards those who criticize.
They take it personally that someone could say something negative about the game they love so much.

It will never even occur to them that the people who criticize ZOS love the game just as much as they do and want the game to do well and improve.
Many of those who criticize, (me included) have been here playing since day 1 of early access (and beta before that) and have seen the game deteriorate gradually, performance get worse, bugs unfixed for years, promises broken, quality of everything get worse with every update, and constant lies from the developers. Yet they stay because they love the game and hoped for improvement in the future.

The defenders do not care about any of that because they prefer to be offended by anything negative. They are the true toxicity of this forum because they try to suppress any real critique of the game and thus also suppress any improvement that could occur because of criticism.

LrdRahvin

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is what I hate... ZOS 'fixes' a bug they find

I call shenanigans on this post.

As we all know, the only time ZOS "fixes" a bug is when they try to squash it and make it worse instead, then remove it from the bug fix list and ignore it for months (if not years).

Although I got a good chuckle from the hypothetical scenario of ZOS actually fixing a bug, thanks for that.

magnusthorek

If we just have a bit more of transparency from the development POV, this would reduce drastically.

But we only see staff here to cleanup topics, most of the times with useless kind of moderation, when it's Natch Potes day and when some serious [snip] happens.

I would love to, preferably, read, as listening is not my thing, some discussions coming from the team actually inside the game. Not having 6 "No ETA" answers for 5 questions made.

clayandaudrey_ESO

mildlylucid wrote: »

Seems like a L2P issue to me.

Wouldn't it be more like L2Forum?

Morimizo

Constructive criticism respectfully communicated is a good thing for any venture, and should always be welcomed by any company or person making a product. It shows unequivocally that the consumer cares about the health of the product, wants it to improve, and has, in a deliberately thoughtful fashion, taken their own precious time to create a viable solution; even if it is from an amateur's perspective.

Troneon

My favorites are...

"it's not really an exploit...it's just a bug that people use"....

and...

"it's not broken....it's just that no one uses it".....

BlackguardBob

Can I have your stuff? lol

out51d3r

I have a pretty short posting history, most of it is focused on ZOS's poor handling of bugs, exploits, and cheating. So I'm not afraid to criticize them.

On the other hand though, it's important to recognize that the average player would make a terrible game designer. Sometimes their criticisms are without merit, and their ideas would damage the game if implemented. Sometimes criticism needs to be criticized. And if your criticism is full of "ZOS is stupid", don't be surprised when you recieve "your idea is stupid" in response.