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Why "Healing Done" is a terrible Argonian passive

Miszou
Miszou
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The only people that care about "healing done" are healers. This passive pigeonholes all Argonians into a healing role.

Given a choice, the overwhelming majority of players choose "healing received" over "healing done".

For example, this completely unscientific survey of Vigor morphs suggest that "healing done" is almost NEVER selected, except in extremely specific circumstances.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/281343/vigor-morph

Please don't saddle Argonians with this useless passive. No-one wants it.

Put it back to healing received, which is still not as powerful as most other racials, but at least it's not completely useless.
  • wayfarerx
    wayfarerx
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    Your poll asks people which vigor morph is better, so they have the choice between increased range and a self heal buff. That does not exactly answer the question of if healing done is better than healing taken for Argonians, especially since vigor is not really used for group healing and is instead more widely used as the go-to stamina self-heal. Of course people who primarily use it as a self heal are going to pick the morph that heals them more.

    I disagree with your premise that healing done is "completely useless," I'm quite looking forward to it. Yes, my main is an Argonian Templar healer, but so what? The healing taken passive has been quite useless to me so far, why pigeonhole all Argonians into the tank role?

    I thought what they did by making it 5% healing done and 5% healing taken was a nice compromise: tanks get a tiny healing taken nerf, healers get a small healing done buff, and those who rely on self-heals don't see too much of a change. If anything this makes Argonians more flexible in their role choice, not less.

    I sympathized with my tank-speced egg brothers and sisters when the entire healing taken passive was removed, however many of us Argonian healers are looking forward to having a passive that actually does something for us. What we have now is a good place to meet in the middle, I vote to leave it as it is on PTS.
    @wayfarerx - PC / North America / Aldmeri Dominion
  • Voxicity
    Voxicity
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    Healing received pigeon holes all argonians into tanking HUR DURRRRRR
  • Miszou
    Miszou
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    wayfarerx wrote: »
    I thought what they did by making it 5% healing done and 5% healing taken was a nice compromise: tanks get a tiny healing taken nerf, healers get a small healing done buff, and those who rely on self-heals don't see too much of a change. If anything this makes Argonians more flexible in their role choice, not less

    Do those things stack for self-heals?
  • rhapsodious
    rhapsodious
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    My Argonian stamblade doesn't feel any more pigeonholed than before. Please stop trying to speak for all of us.
  • Lokryn
    Lokryn
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    Miszou wrote: »
    wayfarerx wrote: »
    I thought what they did by making it 5% healing done and 5% healing taken was a nice compromise: tanks get a tiny healing taken nerf, healers get a small healing done buff, and those who rely on self-heals don't see too much of a change. If anything this makes Argonians more flexible in their role choice, not less

    Do those things stack for self-heals?

    Yes
  • wayfarerx
    wayfarerx
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    Miszou wrote: »
    wayfarerx wrote: »
    I thought what they did by making it 5% healing done and 5% healing taken was a nice compromise: tanks get a tiny healing taken nerf, healers get a small healing done buff, and those who rely on self-heals don't see too much of a change. If anything this makes Argonians more flexible in their role choice, not less

    Do those things stack for self-heals?

    To my knowledge yes, they do.
    @wayfarerx - PC / North America / Aldmeri Dominion
  • Zerok
    Zerok
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    I thought healing done worked both ways, on yourself and others. So it's only just for others?
    Zeerok (the sneaky ruffian) - LV50 Bosmer stamblade DPS (AD)
    Gontrand de Bourbon (the greedy aristocrat) - LV50 Breton magsorc tank (DC)
    Augustus Aquilarios (the imperial claimant) - LV50 Imperial stamDK PvP (EP)
    Zeerokk (the AD zealot) - LV50 Altmer magblade PvP (AD)
    Lianna Storm (the inferno maiden) - LV50 Dunmer magDK DPS (EP)
    Fights-With-Khajiit (the gullible faithful) - LV5 Argonian templar (EP)
    Miner'va (the skooma addict) - LV3 Khajiit sorcerer (AD) - chaotic neutral
    Siggy Thorvaldsson (the charismatic baroness) - LV50 Nord stamwarden tank (DC)
  • Lokryn
    Lokryn
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    Zerok wrote: »
    I thought healing done worked both ways, on yourself and others. So it's only just for others?

    Works for yourself and others.
  • wayfarerx
    wayfarerx
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    Zerok wrote: »
    I thought healing done worked both ways, on yourself and others. So it's only just for others?

    Healing done affects any healing you initiate regardless of who it targets. If you push a button and anyone anywhere gets healed then "healing done" applies.
    @wayfarerx - PC / North America / Aldmeri Dominion
  • Zerok
    Zerok
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    Lokryn wrote: »
    Zerok wrote: »
    I thought healing done worked both ways, on yourself and others. So it's only just for others?

    Works for yourself and others.
    Then this thread is pointless.
    Zeerok (the sneaky ruffian) - LV50 Bosmer stamblade DPS (AD)
    Gontrand de Bourbon (the greedy aristocrat) - LV50 Breton magsorc tank (DC)
    Augustus Aquilarios (the imperial claimant) - LV50 Imperial stamDK PvP (EP)
    Zeerokk (the AD zealot) - LV50 Altmer magblade PvP (AD)
    Lianna Storm (the inferno maiden) - LV50 Dunmer magDK DPS (EP)
    Fights-With-Khajiit (the gullible faithful) - LV5 Argonian templar (EP)
    Miner'va (the skooma addict) - LV3 Khajiit sorcerer (AD) - chaotic neutral
    Siggy Thorvaldsson (the charismatic baroness) - LV50 Nord stamwarden tank (DC)
  • Miszou
    Miszou
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    Lokryn wrote: »
    Miszou wrote: »
    wayfarerx wrote: »
    I thought what they did by making it 5% healing done and 5% healing taken was a nice compromise: tanks get a tiny healing taken nerf, healers get a small healing done buff, and those who rely on self-heals don't see too much of a change. If anything this makes Argonians more flexible in their role choice, not less

    Do those things stack for self-heals?

    Yes
    wayfarerx wrote: »
    Miszou wrote: »
    wayfarerx wrote: »
    I thought what they did by making it 5% healing done and 5% healing taken was a nice compromise: tanks get a tiny healing taken nerf, healers get a small healing done buff, and those who rely on self-heals don't see too much of a change. If anything this makes Argonians more flexible in their role choice, not less

    Do those things stack for self-heals?

    To my knowledge yes, they do.

    Hmm, well in that case.... maybe it's not so terrible.
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    I have rolled a Argonian healer purely due to this change, never considered one before. Id prefer they kept it at 9% for others!! But get that the change more suits everyone / other roles etc
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus : VR16 (810CP) Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
    1st Emperor of Ravenwatch
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
    Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders

    Xbox One | NA | EP
    Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
    Heals-With-Pets : CP160+ Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
    Nordimus : CP160+ Stamsorc
    Beardimus le 13iem : L28 Dunmet Magsorc Icereach
  • AfkNinja
    AfkNinja
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    Argonian Nightblade healer bloodmage here I come!
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    Miszou wrote: »
    The only people that care about "healing done" are healers. This passive pigeonholes all Argonians into a healing role.

    False. We have never been forced into a role. Argue against min/maxing and racial passives all you want. The fact of the matter is that what is optimal and what is the minimum required to complete or participate are vastly different, and the latter has never been scrupulous of racial selection. As such, you can do literally do everything in this game (trials, vma, pvp, dungeons, you name it) on a character that is not racially min/maxed. Doing so competitively is what demands min/maxing and racial preference.

    Additionally, non-healer characters have dabbled in healing done since, well, always. There is a variety of methods available to us to boost healing done, even outside of this specific stat. Depending on the build, it is sometimes more effective to invest in stamina or weapon damage (which increases healing done for stamina-based heals like rally and vigor), but claiming that nobody but healers pay mind to this is absolutely false.

    Miszou wrote: »
    Given a choice, the overwhelming majority of players choose "healing received" over "healing done".

    Cite your source. This is a borderline extreme claim for which I have personally never seen supporting evidence. But don't take my word for it, if had real data you'd see the results yourself.

    Miszou wrote: »
    For example, this completely unscientific survey of Vigor morphs suggest that "healing done" is almost NEVER selected, except in extremely specific circumstances.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/281343/vigor-morph

    Please don't saddle Argonians with this useless passive. No-one wants it.

    Put it back to healing received, which is still not as powerful as most other racials, but at least it's not completely useless.

    Healing done and healing received are synonymous if you are healing yourself.
    Sure, it will limit the healing effectiveness of what you receive from other players, but there are numerous ways to counterbalance this aspect, and we've been doing it effectively since CP were introduced. This change to Argonian racials has the largest impact on tanks, and of each role, tank is the most flexible in their CP, meaning they have the biggest margin for compensating for this change.

    I don't expect you to appreciate the full value of healing done since you aren't a healer. But, when your example (which is too small of a sample size to constitute a valid conclusion) is Vigor, it really doesn't matter. When it comes to Vigor, healing done and healing received affect you in the same way. The only difference is if someone else is healing you. And I'm going to presume that you want your healers to do be more effective, yes?
    Edited by Autolycus on July 28, 2016 6:20PM
  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    Argonian are not Tanks or Healer but cause MMOs need a healing race we gave to take the bullet.
    Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
    Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
    Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
    Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
    Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
    Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
    Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
    Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
    Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
    Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
    Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
    Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
    Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
    Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master

    For the King of Argonia
    May Sithis hold back his Void
  • Ep1kMalware
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    completely disagree. I think you're being short sighted.

    healing done affects you too, (and healing recieved.

    it's good for any self heal, including rally/green dragon's blood for tanks. (I got a health regen idea I think would be epic.

    also awesome for mnb.

    mnb healers(dps) are the ***.
  • me_ming
    me_ming
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    completely disagree. I think you're being short sighted.

    healing done affects you too, (and healing recieved.

    it's good for any self heal, including rally/green dragon's blood for tanks. (I got a health regen idea I think would be epic.

    also awesome for mnb.

    mnb healers(dps) are the ***.

    I agree. an argonian magicka nightblade can really benefit from this passive.

    As for a healer role. I would still take my Breton-templar for a healer. The healing done passive is nice, but having more max magicka + magicka cost reduction + spell resist gives better stats for a healer. As a healer, you can do only so much with regard to actual healing, but no matter how high your healing done is if you or your allies don't know how to avoid one shot mechanics, you'd still be dead.
    "We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
    -Caldwell, "The Final Assault"

    "There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."

    -Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]
  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    Guys Argonian healers suck +5% healing taken and +5% healing done is only +1% to you from the 9% we get on live. For stamina builds min/max races with more stamina will out stamina heal you cause more stamina will make attacks and heals better. For magic 9%-12% max magic will out heal the 5% healing done that's all you're allies get you get the other 5%.

    The bigger pools with the same gear will favor the min/max races for healing. Not only will the heals be stronger but they can add some DPS to the fight. Then add in the better recovery it's not worth rerolling to Argonian healer. Yes your current Argonian healer will be stronger but same points and gear your min/max healer will be better.

    I'm losing 4% healing taken from other players for 5% healing done it's trash. We will be better healers then we are now but not better then other healers. We are Masters of Gorilla warfare not pocket healers.
    Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
    Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
    Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
    Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
    Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
    Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
    Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
    Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
    Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
    Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
    Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
    Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
    Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
    Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master

    For the King of Argonia
    May Sithis hold back his Void
  • Ankael07
    Ankael07
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    Does running speed bonus of orcs pigeon hole them into athletes?
    If you want me to reply to your comment type @Ankael07 in it.
  • Brrrofski
    Brrrofski
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    Ankael07 wrote: »
    Does running speed bonus of orcs pigeon hole them into athletes?

    Couriers.

    That's what I'm turning mine into next patch.
    Xbox One EU
  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    Ankael07 wrote: »
    Does running speed bonus of orcs pigeon hole them into athletes?

    Orcs speed boost is not the sole good passive they have. +4% weapon damage, +6 max stamina and health, -12% sprint cost reduction with a +10% boost sprint speed. Orcs have a lot they can do with that it's open to so many things.

    Argonians have Poison and Disease resistance that does next to nothing to the damage you take, a good potion passive that has a 45 cool down, a swim speed bonus that is near completely worthless water in PvP will kill you and leave you 100% defenseless, +9% health a good passive and +9% heals taken.
    Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
    Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
    Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
    Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
    Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
    Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
    Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
    Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
    Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
    Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
    Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
    Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
    Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
    Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master

    For the King of Argonia
    May Sithis hold back his Void
  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    Not much you can do besides tank.
    Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
    Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
    Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
    Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
    Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
    Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
    Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
    Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
    Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
    Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
    Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
    Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
    Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
    Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master

    For the King of Argonia
    May Sithis hold back his Void
  • Bigevilpeter
    Bigevilpeter
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    its should actually all be healing done so that argonians could have a niche in something, argonian tanks really didnt make a lot of sense and they werent the best tanks anyways.

    As for you point about vigor its a stamina ability and stamina characters mostly only self heal thats why so you point is moot.

    i actually considered playing argonian after they got 9% healing done then changed my mind when they changed it to 5 and 5%
  • Miszou
    Miszou
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    As for you point about vigor its a stamina ability and stamina characters mostly only self heal thats why so you point is moot.

    I don't know what that has to do with anything. I have an Argonian Stam DK that uses Vigor.

    Or is the pigeonholing of Argonians already complete?
  • AtmaDarkwolf
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    Sadly, by this logic, wolverine (the x-man) would be an AWESOME cleric, cuz he can (Originally) heal insanely fast, with this 'buff' he'd instead (if he learned how) be able to heal others fast :P
  • Bigevilpeter
    Bigevilpeter
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    Miszou wrote: »
    As for you point about vigor its a stamina ability and stamina characters mostly only self heal thats why so you point is moot.

    I don't know what that has to do with anything. I have an Argonian Stam DK that uses Vigor.

    Or is the pigeonholing of Argonians already complete?

    i never said argonians dont use vigor i was reponding to the OP of why no one ever picks healing the teamates morph
  • Wollust
    Wollust
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    Healing done is amazing
    Susano'o

    Zerg Squad
  • Smasherx74
    Smasherx74
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    I completely dissagree. Also that survey if anything shows you are wrong. Healing done gives the Argonians much more racial utility. My main is an Argonian Stamplar. And if you wanna talk about useless passives, turn your eyes to that increased swimming speed. Seriously that's just a troll.

    It has it's uses.
    Master Debater
  • Miszou
    Miszou
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    Miszou wrote: »
    As for you point about vigor its a stamina ability and stamina characters mostly only self heal thats why so you point is moot.

    I don't know what that has to do with anything. I have an Argonian Stam DK that uses Vigor.

    Or is the pigeonholing of Argonians already complete?

    i never said argonians dont use vigor i was reponding to the OP of why no one ever picks healing the teamates morph

    I'm the OP.... and no-one picks the "heal others" morph of vigor, because healing received is better.

    That's my point.
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