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Promoting Build/Role Diversity in PvP and PvE
tinythinker
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[To start, if you hate either PvP or PvE and want to blame it for ruining the game, this isn't the thread for you unless you just want to troll. I play both and enjoy both. I want both to be as fun as possible.]
I'm not going to recap the issues caused by the mechanics introduced by 1/6/2.0 so if you don't know how things changed that's fine, you can skip it or look it up. But believe it or not there was a lot more build diversity once upon a time because it was really pointless stack any stat super high, since if you kept stacking one thing soft caps made the investment return less and less. There has been a lot of talk about this lately and about the downside of power-creep. I'm not suggesting "the one true silver bullet" that will fix all the things. But I am looking at my own ideas and those widely discussed and thinking about what would help the game in general, not just one area. The first idea is one widely discussed, the second is one I am introducing to the discussion.
Decouple Max Attribute and Ability Damage
Currently the damage calculation algorithm looks at the attribute used for casting and includes it in factoring the tooltip numbers for an ability. So if you have a mediocre spell damage stat but 45K magicka, your spells will still hit very hard. Since your defense is based on this as well along with healing, there is no problem seeing what to do. Just keep your regen respectable and you're good. A similar situation occurs for stamina builds. If the contributing coefficient to damage based on the relevant max attribute was removed or greatly diminished, this means you have to stack spell or weapon damage if you want to hit really, really hard because stacking magicka or stamina won't get a good return.
For PvE, this means you can't easily be super-healer-dps-with-OK-tanking all at once. It means that you can't just stack 3-4 damage dealers to run four player content and burn it all, unless you are just really that good. Healers and tanks become more important again, as you really are going to want that tank to hold aggro. It also means the mechanics can't be easily skipped and there is room for more types of mechanics. Those who want to be heavy dps can do so but will have to accept more limits. For solo play, damage is already adjusted for a broad range of builds, so those who stack damage will be fine but will have to play a little smarter in some situations.
For PvP, you will have to make your burst count if you stack damage as you will have less stamina to roll dodge or less magicka for shields. Also, your healing still goes off of the relevant max attribute, but not weapon or spell damage, so you are facing a trade-off. How much damage are you willing to stack at the expense of survivability? Non-damage stackers will do less damage, but will be able to heal and protect themselves better. This means a lower average DPS for PvP and leaves more room to try out different builds and sets if you aren't just damage stacking since you can get about the same damage as everyone else who isn't stacking anyway.
Inversely link key stats
The links go like this:
Damage <--> Resistance
Max Attribute <--> Attribute Recovery
Penetration <--> Critical Chance
What this means is that, after you get one stat beyond a certain point, a modifier is introduced the reduces the effectiveness of raising its partner. This coefficient starts off low but scales rapidly. To give an idea of what I mean, I am tossing out sample numbers. They are *NOT* recommended numbers, they are just used to give a sense of the idea.
So, let's say 2000 is the cap for damage. You raise it over 2000, then your resistance goes down a bit. And this is for both general types of resistance, as you are distracted by focusing so much on getting a good strike on your target. So you get your damage to 2100 or 2000, and your physical and spell resistances take a small hit. Get it to 3000 and you are almost practically naked as far as physical and spell resistance. Get over 3000 and you are really hurting for mitigation, and eventually the coefficient is making you take more damage as you get close to 4000 damage stacked. You are into negative resistance. AGAIN, this is just a sample. Where the "practically naked" point and the "increased damage taken" point should be is an open issue, but again, the idea is that if you want to super-stack damage you are really a glass cannon.
However, you could still stack recovery if you wanted to be able to roll dodge or cast shields a bit more, so the burst-and-roll/blast-and-shield build wouldn't be dead. It would just be more vulnerable and require good timing. As the damage buffs wear off so does the decreased mitigation. You can also use racial passives or gear bonuses to boost mitigation and lessen the effects of damage stacking. And the inverse is that the more resistance you have the less damage you do, so you might become really hard to kill in PvP or PvE by stacking resistance but you would be wielding a wet noodle.
You can then see how the other two pairs would work. If you have a balanced max att and max rec, you are versatile. If you stack one really high, then the other is severely diminished, so if you are a tank with supper high health your health recovery is going to be non-existent. Keep in mind, you can still stack whatever you like, but there is a trade-off. If you want high recovery, let's say as a burst-and-dodge build, you can do that. You can burst, roll, roll, but not all day. You have to get in, make a kill, and get away to let your recovery recharge you. The same is true for magicka-focused builds using shields. You have to look at the trade-offs if you want to get one number really high. The same is true for penetration and critical chance. If you stack spell pen to the sky, great, but your spell crit will blow.
Once last time, since some will skim and miss this, these inverted pairs only matter if you stack one stat way up. You can have a specialized build with some really large stats but at the cost of other stats being much lower. This allows people to experiment more, makes more sets viable, more build ideas viable, and even encourages two or three attribute hybrids. It also promotes the importance of different roles. This goes for both PvE and PvP.
Other Changes & Summary
There are other changes that could be made, and you are free of course to recommend them, but I am focusing on these two as a way to correct some of the imbalance that started creeping in with Update 1.6/2.0, an imbalance that has been intractable in PvP. The attempted fixes for this imbalanced in PvP have affected PvE, but even if they hadn't, the stack-and-burn style of ignoring the mechanics in PvE would still be a problem. You simply shouldn't be able to be really strong at almost everything, where having gold versions of BiS gear is the real measure of power. Having said gear should give a decent advantage for the effort to get it, but only at the role on which your character is focused. And what is considered BiS should be based on that role and how you choose to play it.
To summarize, the changes mentioned are intended to correct imbalances that have not been effectively checked since the core game mechanics underwent a major overhaul. It will be easier, though not automatic, to get a to standard level of damage, recovery, mitigation, etc, and from there you can stack certain stats to fit a particular role/playstyle by being creative with your build and working to acquire just the right gear. The right build and skill, along with working with others who fill in the weakness in you own set-up, will matter a great deal more. You can be a generalist and be decent at lots of things, but if you want to be really great at something you have to commit to it.
edited for typos and missing letters
Edited by tinythinker on July 24, 2016 10:56PM I'm not going to recap the issues caused by the mechanics introduced by 1/6/2.0 so if you don't know how things changed that's fine, you can skip it or look it up. But believe it or not there was a lot more build diversity once upon a time because it was really pointless stack any stat super high, since if you kept stacking one thing soft caps made the investment return less and less. There has been a lot of talk about this lately and about the downside of power-creep. I'm not suggesting "the one true silver bullet" that will fix all the things. But I am looking at my own ideas and those widely discussed and thinking about what would help the game in general, not just one area. The first idea is one widely discussed, the second is one I am introducing to the discussion.
Decouple Max Attribute and Ability Damage
Currently the damage calculation algorithm looks at the attribute used for casting and includes it in factoring the tooltip numbers for an ability. So if you have a mediocre spell damage stat but 45K magicka, your spells will still hit very hard. Since your defense is based on this as well along with healing, there is no problem seeing what to do. Just keep your regen respectable and you're good. A similar situation occurs for stamina builds. If the contributing coefficient to damage based on the relevant max attribute was removed or greatly diminished, this means you have to stack spell or weapon damage if you want to hit really, really hard because stacking magicka or stamina won't get a good return.
For PvE, this means you can't easily be super-healer-dps-with-OK-tanking all at once. It means that you can't just stack 3-4 damage dealers to run four player content and burn it all, unless you are just really that good. Healers and tanks become more important again, as you really are going to want that tank to hold aggro. It also means the mechanics can't be easily skipped and there is room for more types of mechanics. Those who want to be heavy dps can do so but will have to accept more limits. For solo play, damage is already adjusted for a broad range of builds, so those who stack damage will be fine but will have to play a little smarter in some situations.
For PvP, you will have to make your burst count if you stack damage as you will have less stamina to roll dodge or less magicka for shields. Also, your healing still goes off of the relevant max attribute, but not weapon or spell damage, so you are facing a trade-off. How much damage are you willing to stack at the expense of survivability? Non-damage stackers will do less damage, but will be able to heal and protect themselves better. This means a lower average DPS for PvP and leaves more room to try out different builds and sets if you aren't just damage stacking since you can get about the same damage as everyone else who isn't stacking anyway.
Inversely link key stats
The links go like this:
Damage <--> Resistance
Max Attribute <--> Attribute Recovery
Penetration <--> Critical Chance
What this means is that, after you get one stat beyond a certain point, a modifier is introduced the reduces the effectiveness of raising its partner. This coefficient starts off low but scales rapidly. To give an idea of what I mean, I am tossing out sample numbers. They are *NOT* recommended numbers, they are just used to give a sense of the idea.
So, let's say 2000 is the cap for damage. You raise it over 2000, then your resistance goes down a bit. And this is for both general types of resistance, as you are distracted by focusing so much on getting a good strike on your target. So you get your damage to 2100 or 2000, and your physical and spell resistances take a small hit. Get it to 3000 and you are almost practically naked as far as physical and spell resistance. Get over 3000 and you are really hurting for mitigation, and eventually the coefficient is making you take more damage as you get close to 4000 damage stacked. You are into negative resistance. AGAIN, this is just a sample. Where the "practically naked" point and the "increased damage taken" point should be is an open issue, but again, the idea is that if you want to super-stack damage you are really a glass cannon.
However, you could still stack recovery if you wanted to be able to roll dodge or cast shields a bit more, so the burst-and-roll/blast-and-shield build wouldn't be dead. It would just be more vulnerable and require good timing. As the damage buffs wear off so does the decreased mitigation. You can also use racial passives or gear bonuses to boost mitigation and lessen the effects of damage stacking. And the inverse is that the more resistance you have the less damage you do, so you might become really hard to kill in PvP or PvE by stacking resistance but you would be wielding a wet noodle.
You can then see how the other two pairs would work. If you have a balanced max att and max rec, you are versatile. If you stack one really high, then the other is severely diminished, so if you are a tank with supper high health your health recovery is going to be non-existent. Keep in mind, you can still stack whatever you like, but there is a trade-off. If you want high recovery, let's say as a burst-and-dodge build, you can do that. You can burst, roll, roll, but not all day. You have to get in, make a kill, and get away to let your recovery recharge you. The same is true for magicka-focused builds using shields. You have to look at the trade-offs if you want to get one number really high. The same is true for penetration and critical chance. If you stack spell pen to the sky, great, but your spell crit will blow.
Once last time, since some will skim and miss this, these inverted pairs only matter if you stack one stat way up. You can have a specialized build with some really large stats but at the cost of other stats being much lower. This allows people to experiment more, makes more sets viable, more build ideas viable, and even encourages two or three attribute hybrids. It also promotes the importance of different roles. This goes for both PvE and PvP.
Other Changes & Summary
There are other changes that could be made, and you are free of course to recommend them, but I am focusing on these two as a way to correct some of the imbalance that started creeping in with Update 1.6/2.0, an imbalance that has been intractable in PvP. The attempted fixes for this imbalanced in PvP have affected PvE, but even if they hadn't, the stack-and-burn style of ignoring the mechanics in PvE would still be a problem. You simply shouldn't be able to be really strong at almost everything, where having gold versions of BiS gear is the real measure of power. Having said gear should give a decent advantage for the effort to get it, but only at the role on which your character is focused. And what is considered BiS should be based on that role and how you choose to play it.
To summarize, the changes mentioned are intended to correct imbalances that have not been effectively checked since the core game mechanics underwent a major overhaul. It will be easier, though not automatic, to get a to standard level of damage, recovery, mitigation, etc, and from there you can stack certain stats to fit a particular role/playstyle by being creative with your build and working to acquire just the right gear. The right build and skill, along with working with others who fill in the weakness in you own set-up, will matter a great deal more. You can be a generalist and be decent at lots of things, but if you want to be really great at something you have to commit to it.
edited for typos and missing letters
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UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm diverse regardless of numbers. Long as it's fun and works I'm all over it
And by works I mean on at least a semi-hardcore level. Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Amsel_McKay✭✭✭✭✭Just get rid of the starting classes and make all class abilities open, then diversity will show up like in other ES games, you level your skill lines and that makes you what you are. The 4 classes is what causes narrowing of gameplay, yeah I'm sure the right combo of skills will be the best min/max for a while, but with a little re-balance I think it would be fun.
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UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Amsel_McKay wrote: »Just get rid of the starting classes and make all class abilities open, then diversity will show up like in other ES games, you level your skill lines and that makes you what you are. The 4 classes is what causes narrowing of gameplay, yeah I'm sure the right combo of skills will be the best min/max for a while, but with a little re-balance I think it would be fun.
No. No it won't. Removing classes would actually promote MORE cookie cutter builds.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Amsel_McKay wrote: »Just get rid of the starting classes and make all class abilities open, then diversity will show up like in other ES games, you level your skill lines and that makes you what you are. The 4 classes is what causes narrowing of gameplay, yeah I'm sure the right combo of skills will be the best min/max for a while, but with a little re-balance I think it would be fun.
This would be ideal. But I still do think soft caps made sense, since they made it more or less pointless to keep stacking the same attribute/resource.
That said, 1.5 was a very bad time for me as a magicka sorc. That was the time of the magicka DK, and the no-sorcs-allowed-in-trials-groups. This isn't a sorc's whine either, I demonstrated it several times in the forums by going over trials leaderboards and counting the number of groups with no sorcs compared to other classes, and the number of sorcs in the top 100 spots compared to other classes. So if soft caps are brought back or even if classes are abolished, that shouldn't be a signal that there's no need to balance skills, otherwise you'll simply have everyone running the same build.0 -
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So if soft caps are brought back or even if classes are abolished, that shouldn't be a signal that there's no need to balance skills, otherwise you'll simply have everyone running the same build.
That's why I don't suggest returning to soft caps. More of a dynamic balancing. Abilities will always need adjusting with new mechanics, but I didn't want to get into class stuff. I mean, honestly, when I am on my magicka Sorc now I think, "Hey, since shields were reduced in strength and length, couldn't the Streak restrictions be loosened?" The class balancing always lags behind as the order goes basic mechanics changes --> player meta changes --> class balance changes.Edited by tinythinker on July 24, 2016 11:01PM❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Who are you in Tamriel (whether it's just your character's attitude & style or a full backstory)? - Share your Character's Story! ◔ ⌣ ◔
(And let us know 🔷What Kind of Roleplayer You Are🔷 - even if that only extends to choosing your race)
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jhharvest✭✭✭I think the opening post is very well thought out and the game would desperately need some solution like this, since the developers are unwilling to have a quicker balancing cycle to address power creep.1