Suggestion: Change Wrath to this...

DUTCH_REAPER · July 2016

CasNation wrote: »

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Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

I kinda like the spell damage wrath gives me...if you are suggesting adding additionAL penetration resist, fine. If you are suggesting replacing the damage, no thanks.

Sorry but heavy armor never needed a damage buff to begin with. Like sorry but its stupid that people think you can be a heavy armor DPS that what got heavy armor nerfed for 2 years to begin with was cause people want damage and to immortal. It's you area glass cannon, meat shield, or some where in between that not to immortal and not to cannon.

Wearing full robes you should be able to deal easily 20K damage but die in 1 or 2 hits, wearing full metal armor should take a entire raid to kill you and you should not be able to kill said raid.

Like really what are players not understanding about the purpose of heavy armor ? It's meant to take damage not deal it period there is no ifs ands or buts about it want damage wear LA or MA want defense wear HA want some where in between use some of your enchantments and attribute points into health.

Who the hell said I was using heavy in a DPS build? I heal/tank on my templar, and the extra spell damage is very useful to me since it is pretty much a free 200 SD to heal with as a tank.

Just because the passive doesn't fit with your narrow perception of how everything "should" work, doesn't mean that the passive isn't useful at all.

I completely agree with you. This whole "HA dps is the new META"??? I don't know who this guy is running VSO with but there is not HA DPS in the party lol. Also my numbers are way less than half for DPS compared to LA for HA. There are pros and cons with each type of armor, these passives on HA open the door (especially for pvp) for other builds instead of the ole cookie cutter ones.
I applaud ZOS for the changes they made to HA.

CasNation · July 2016

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

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CasNation wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

I kinda like the spell damage wrath gives me...if you are suggesting adding additionAL penetration resist, fine. If you are suggesting replacing the damage, no thanks.

Sorry but heavy armor never needed a damage buff to begin with. Like sorry but its stupid that people think you can be a heavy armor DPS that what got heavy armor nerfed for 2 years to begin with was cause people want damage and to immortal. It's you area glass cannon, meat shield, or some where in between that not to immortal and not to cannon.

Wearing full robes you should be able to deal easily 20K damage but die in 1 or 2 hits, wearing full metal armor should take a entire raid to kill you and you should not be able to kill said raid.

Like really what are players not understanding about the purpose of heavy armor ? It's meant to take damage not deal it period there is no ifs ands or buts about it want damage wear LA or MA want defense wear HA want some where in between use some of your enchantments and attribute points into health.

Who the hell said I was using heavy in a DPS build? I heal/tank on my templar, and the extra spell damage is very useful to me since it is pretty much a free 200 SD to heal with as a tank.

Just because the passive doesn't fit with your narrow perception of how everything "should" work, doesn't mean that the passive isn't useful at all.

I completely agree with you. This whole "HA dps is the new META"??? I don't know who this guy is running VSO with but there is not HA DPS in the party lol. Also my numbers are way less than half for DPS compared to LA for HA. There are pros and cons with each type of armor, these passives on HA open the door (especially for pvp) for other builds instead of the ole cookie cutter ones.
I applaud ZOS for the changes they made to HA.

Indeed. While the passive may not "fit" in some people's minds, it allows for higher build versatility and niche build options. Besides, it's been how long since the changes to block cost? Get over it people, find a way.

DUTCH_REAPER · July 2016

If people want to be blocking bullies just throw your CP into block cost reduction and throw on block reduce cost on your jewelry. There ya go. You can block for days now. Your welcome. Glad I could help you with your block build.

Anti_Virus · July 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

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dday3six wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

You get that even at 20% it's not enough of a difference to give most builds even an extra hit...

Try to do the math and run the numbers, don't just throw out ideas and expect others to iron out the details for you.

The reason I gave the figures I did is because I did not want to make Heavy Armor seem too OP. It also corresponds with Mace passive's Penetration. Perhaps you should think about multiple angles of suggestions. Also wouldn't kill ya to try making a constructive comment without acting like a jerk.

If you want it to match up with the Mace passive then you need to actually put the number. As you've worded it will be 10% and 20% of that number. The problem with doing is the number actually grows with the stats of targets.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but people are not obligated to overly positive to you at ever juncture. You not likely my delivery doesn't somehow nullify the facts of the statement.

I have no beef with anyone disagreeing with me. I do, however, have beef with every disagreement being either passive aggressive or flat out trying to insult me. Negative constructive criticism is one thing, but negativity flat out is another. As for your point I really only gave the figures I did for 3 reasons:

1. An example
2. Hinting at a way to counter the natural Penetration of Maces
3. A means of Heavy Armor not becoming OP to the point people just won't die in Cyrodiil

I don't deal in actual algorithms in a game so I leave that to those more savvy in that field. My intention here was pure suggestion, that's all. After all, Penetration is the reason no one finds Resistance any good in PvP, and while Wrath isn't the worst passive there is it doesn't exactly fit in too well with Heavy Armor, unless you wanna be a heavily armored warrior lol

It clearly seems as if you assoicate negativity with disagreement. I called you out on something, you admit to doing just that and say I'm being negative to you.

Here's the deal, you are not Steve Jobs...

You want people to approach your ideas with more gravitas and respond to them in a more positive fashion. Be willing to actually do the legwork surrounding the more intricate details of those ideas rather than expecting to be rewarded with affirmation for just for having them.

Apparently you either fail to see the hostility you bring to your posts or you simply do not acknowledge it. Until you can realize your attitude is hostile every time you disagree with me we are done here. I am ignoring you now.

Don't argue with him he will be as hostile as possible to those he disagree with.

UltimaJoe777 · July 2016

Anti_Virus wrote: »

show previous quotes

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

You get that even at 20% it's not enough of a difference to give most builds even an extra hit...

Try to do the math and run the numbers, don't just throw out ideas and expect others to iron out the details for you.

The reason I gave the figures I did is because I did not want to make Heavy Armor seem too OP. It also corresponds with Mace passive's Penetration. Perhaps you should think about multiple angles of suggestions. Also wouldn't kill ya to try making a constructive comment without acting like a jerk.

If you want it to match up with the Mace passive then you need to actually put the number. As you've worded it will be 10% and 20% of that number. The problem with doing is the number actually grows with the stats of targets.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but people are not obligated to overly positive to you at ever juncture. You not likely my delivery doesn't somehow nullify the facts of the statement.

I have no beef with anyone disagreeing with me. I do, however, have beef with every disagreement being either passive aggressive or flat out trying to insult me. Negative constructive criticism is one thing, but negativity flat out is another. As for your point I really only gave the figures I did for 3 reasons:

1. An example
2. Hinting at a way to counter the natural Penetration of Maces
3. A means of Heavy Armor not becoming OP to the point people just won't die in Cyrodiil

I don't deal in actual algorithms in a game so I leave that to those more savvy in that field. My intention here was pure suggestion, that's all. After all, Penetration is the reason no one finds Resistance any good in PvP, and while Wrath isn't the worst passive there is it doesn't exactly fit in too well with Heavy Armor, unless you wanna be a heavily armored warrior lol

It clearly seems as if you assoicate negativity with disagreement. I called you out on something, you admit to doing just that and say I'm being negative to you.

Here's the deal, you are not Steve Jobs...

You want people to approach your ideas with more gravitas and respond to them in a more positive fashion. Be willing to actually do the legwork surrounding the more intricate details of those ideas rather than expecting to be rewarded with affirmation for just for having them.

Apparently you either fail to see the hostility you bring to your posts or you simply do not acknowledge it. Until you can realize your attitude is hostile every time you disagree with me we are done here. I am ignoring you now.

Don't argue with him he will be as hostile as possible to those he disagree with.

You don't have to worry he is on my ignore list lol

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2016

CasNation wrote: »

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DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

I kinda like the spell damage wrath gives me...if you are suggesting adding additionAL penetration resist, fine. If you are suggesting replacing the damage, no thanks.

Sorry but heavy armor never needed a damage buff to begin with. Like sorry but its stupid that people think you can be a heavy armor DPS that what got heavy armor nerfed for 2 years to begin with was cause people want damage and to immortal. It's you area glass cannon, meat shield, or some where in between that not to immortal and not to cannon.

Wearing full robes you should be able to deal easily 20K damage but die in 1 or 2 hits, wearing full metal armor should take a entire raid to kill you and you should not be able to kill said raid.

Like really what are players not understanding about the purpose of heavy armor ? It's meant to take damage not deal it period there is no ifs ands or buts about it want damage wear LA or MA want defense wear HA want some where in between use some of your enchantments and attribute points into health.

Who the hell said I was using heavy in a DPS build? I heal/tank on my templar, and the extra spell damage is very useful to me since it is pretty much a free 200 SD to heal with as a tank.

Just because the passive doesn't fit with your narrow perception of how everything "should" work, doesn't mean that the passive isn't useful at all.

I completely agree with you. This whole "HA dps is the new META"??? I don't know who this guy is running VSO with but there is not HA DPS in the party lol. Also my numbers are way less than half for DPS compared to LA for HA. There are pros and cons with each type of armor, these passives on HA open the door (especially for pvp) for other builds instead of the ole cookie cutter ones.
I applaud ZOS for the changes they made to HA.

Indeed. While the passive may not "fit" in some people's minds, it allows for higher build versatility and niche build options. Besides, it's been how long since the changes to block cost? Get over it people, find a way.

How narrow minded are you 2 ? Really "Wraith adds versatility to builds" it is cause of wraith that is making players think they can be heavy armor DPS and some causes be heavy armor DPS and doesn't fit "my perception" ? Really ? Heavy armor is meant to absorb damage not ever deal it I have no idea where any one got the idea heavy armor needed a damage boost.

These changes to HA are ruin it giving false perspective making players think they can be immortal and a cannon and with cheese Malubeth still not nerfed yet players can be that that "door" is a door way to chaos that's eventually gonna lead to HA to be nerfed again.

Wraith needs to go and bracing needs to come back period. As for blocking yes Wrobel made it clear that you wanna block you have to literally give up everything to do it he made that very clear and for what a few more seconds of holding a shield up that can easily be put down via stuns and blocking does relies in resistance and last time i checked resistance was still lack lust in pvp cause only 50% mitigation and armor debuffs and so on.

Just cause you like these changes doesn't mean every one else does.

Also what is the purpose of even making 3 different armor classes if they don't have different purposes ? LA magical base DPS and healing, MA physical base DPS, HA damage absorption. How else are the 3 different armor classes supposed to work ? What LA is meant for damage absorption and not HA ? Is that what you are saying ?

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

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susmitds wrote: »

As if PvP tanks were not OP enough.

Those players are not tanks they are cheese players using a clearly OP monster set. Seriously ZoS nerf Malubeth already cause I do not wanna see tanks nerfed for another 2 years cause of the wanna be immortal cheese players.

Also as for perma-blocking well as a certain dev said (he who shall not be named) even said wanna block you have to invest into it now and the result is perma-blocking so want some one to blame for that well you know who blame.

This is precisely why I'm uncomfortable with the value of set pieces in MMO's. Sets make up such a major element in these games, and what usually ends up happening is developers make the gear ridiculously overpowered, which in turn wobbles balance completely out of control. Players flock to this overpowered set (they have no choice if they don't want their teeth kicked in) and then developers utterly destroy that set, and come out with something new that is completely overpowered and stupid. Sets wouldn't bother me if they didn't generally operate this way in MMO's... this is just my opinion, but I find it extremely annoying. I would even take it so far as to say I wish in pvp Set gear were non existent. I could care less with garbage cheese equipment people use in raids/trials/whatever, but in pvp it kills the purity of the contest of player vs. player thereby killing the joy of the game. Again sorry for the tirade.

Autolycus · July 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

CasNation wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

I kinda like the spell damage wrath gives me...if you are suggesting adding additionAL penetration resist, fine. If you are suggesting replacing the damage, no thanks.

Sorry but heavy armor never needed a damage buff to begin with. Like sorry but its stupid that people think you can be a heavy armor DPS that what got heavy armor nerfed for 2 years to begin with was cause people want damage and to immortal. It's you area glass cannon, meat shield, or some where in between that not to immortal and not to cannon.

Wearing full robes you should be able to deal easily 20K damage but die in 1 or 2 hits, wearing full metal armor should take a entire raid to kill you and you should not be able to kill said raid.

Like really what are players not understanding about the purpose of heavy armor ? It's meant to take damage not deal it period there is no ifs ands or buts about it want damage wear LA or MA want defense wear HA want some where in between use some of your enchantments and attribute points into health.

Who the hell said I was using heavy in a DPS build? I heal/tank on my templar, and the extra spell damage is very useful to me since it is pretty much a free 200 SD to heal with as a tank.

Just because the passive doesn't fit with your narrow perception of how everything "should" work, doesn't mean that the passive isn't useful at all.

I completely agree with you. This whole "HA dps is the new META"??? I don't know who this guy is running VSO with but there is not HA DPS in the party lol. Also my numbers are way less than half for DPS compared to LA for HA. There are pros and cons with each type of armor, these passives on HA open the door (especially for pvp) for other builds instead of the ole cookie cutter ones.
I applaud ZOS for the changes they made to HA.

Indeed. While the passive may not "fit" in some people's minds, it allows for higher build versatility and niche build options. Besides, it's been how long since the changes to block cost? Get over it people, find a way.

How narrow minded are you 2 ? Really "Wraith adds versatility to builds" it is cause of wraith that is making players think they can be heavy armor DPS and some causes be heavy armor DPS and doesn't fit "my perception" ? Really ? Heavy armor is meant to absorb damage not ever deal it I have no idea where any one got the idea heavy armor needed a damage boost.

These changes to HA are ruin it giving false perspective making players think they can be immortal and a cannon and with cheese Malubeth still not nerfed yet players can be that that "door" is a door way to chaos that's eventually gonna lead to HA to be nerfed again.

Wraith needs to go and bracing needs to come back period. As for blocking yes Wrobel made it clear that you wanna block you have to literally give up everything to do it he made that very clear and for what a few more seconds of holding a shield up that can easily be put down via stuns and blocking does relies in resistance and last time i checked resistance was still lack lust in pvp cause only 50% mitigation and armor debuffs and so on.

Just cause you like these changes doesn't mean every one else does.

Also what is the purpose of even making 3 different armor classes if they don't have different purposes ? LA magical base DPS and healing, MA physical base DPS, HA damage absorption. How else are the 3 different armor classes supposed to work ? What LA is meant for damage absorption and not HA ? Is that what you are saying ?

Your disdain for Malubeth and the state of heavy armor are two completely different concepts. If you're going to be toxic, at least direct it solely at the culprit. The removal of Bracing was done to limit inherent perma-blocking efficiencies in pvp. Because people like me were going in there with next to nothing invested in block cost reduction, wearing all pve gear, and face-tanking 24man groups by myself (rather than catering my build and gear for pvp, which is what we must do now).

You tend to ignore pve a lot in your posts. I want you to know that pve tanks, for the most part, don't need Bracing, Wrath, or Sturdy gear. If sturdy traits are used, it usually so that the tank can afford to give up something to benefit their group. These things are predominantly for pvp, and there was a reason they were changed/removed/added. That doesn't necessarily mean it was for the best. But it's something to consider if you're going to criticize others for being narrow-minded.

The concept of an indomitable bulwark that simply charges, posts up and CCs while the group does the work... that doesn't exist in ESO anymore. I watch people do this all the time in pvp and fail at it. This game no longer caters to the holy trinity; rather, it created a new one: Dps, Heavy Support, and Light Support. See my point? Everything in this game is about damage, hence Wrath. They didn't give us Wrath because they thought we needed it, they gave us Wrath because it's the only thing they know how to do, and because a portion of the community does actually enjoy being able to kill something now and again with heavy armor equipped (i.e. the less toxic casual players who do not spend 99% of their time in a single zone, or those who like doing something different from the meta). Whether or not I agree is irrelevant, however I can at least understand why they justified the addition of Wrath, and for some people it's actually working. You seem to think that everyone and their dog is running around in HA now pretending to be an Army of One and getting facerolled, when really, there are not that many people in HA setups, and those that are doing so successfully are likely running something you haven't considered. I have seen and fought people who are making excellent use of Wrath, and they're not doing it like you seem to think they are.

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. Wrath is not destroying heavy armor; PvP is destroying tanking. This has always been the case. Every nerf we face, such as the removal of Bracing, the changes to CP that put our most valuable star into a meaningless and completely wasted and pointless branch, the limitations of resource returns for gbaoes, the removal of stam recovery while blocking, etc.... It's all because of pvp. Whose fault is that, I wonder? Is it me? Is it you? No, it's ZOS; they are the ones to blame for pvp imbalance. We've known for ages that the itemization team at ZOS is completely out of touch with the combat team (coincidentally both report to the same person). People who take advantage of their inability to properly balance sets and classes are only doing so because it works, and because if they don't, they will only end up in a rage and on the forums, being toxic to players who find some semblance of optimism in a mostly negative situation. It's fine to disagree with the validity of Wrath, really. But there's no need to get hostile towards people just because they are trying to find ways to make it useful.

DUTCH_REAPER · July 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

CasNation wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

I kinda like the spell damage wrath gives me...if you are suggesting adding additionAL penetration resist, fine. If you are suggesting replacing the damage, no thanks.

Sorry but heavy armor never needed a damage buff to begin with. Like sorry but its stupid that people think you can be a heavy armor DPS that what got heavy armor nerfed for 2 years to begin with was cause people want damage and to immortal. It's you area glass cannon, meat shield, or some where in between that not to immortal and not to cannon.

Wearing full robes you should be able to deal easily 20K damage but die in 1 or 2 hits, wearing full metal armor should take a entire raid to kill you and you should not be able to kill said raid.

Like really what are players not understanding about the purpose of heavy armor ? It's meant to take damage not deal it period there is no ifs ands or buts about it want damage wear LA or MA want defense wear HA want some where in between use some of your enchantments and attribute points into health.

Who the hell said I was using heavy in a DPS build? I heal/tank on my templar, and the extra spell damage is very useful to me since it is pretty much a free 200 SD to heal with as a tank.

Just because the passive doesn't fit with your narrow perception of how everything "should" work, doesn't mean that the passive isn't useful at all.

I completely agree with you. This whole "HA dps is the new META"??? I don't know who this guy is running VSO with but there is not HA DPS in the party lol. Also my numbers are way less than half for DPS compared to LA for HA. There are pros and cons with each type of armor, these passives on HA open the door (especially for pvp) for other builds instead of the ole cookie cutter ones.
I applaud ZOS for the changes they made to HA.

Indeed. While the passive may not "fit" in some people's minds, it allows for higher build versatility and niche build options. Besides, it's been how long since the changes to block cost? Get over it people, find a way.

How narrow minded are you 2 ? Really "Wraith adds versatility to builds" it is cause of wraith that is making players think they can be heavy armor DPS and some causes be heavy armor DPS and doesn't fit "my perception" ? Really ? Heavy armor is meant to absorb damage not ever deal it I have no idea where any one got the idea heavy armor needed a damage boost.

These changes to HA are ruin it giving false perspective making players think they can be immortal and a cannon and with cheese Malubeth still not nerfed yet players can be that that "door" is a door way to chaos that's eventually gonna lead to HA to be nerfed again.

Wraith needs to go and bracing needs to come back period. As for blocking yes Wrobel made it clear that you wanna block you have to literally give up everything to do it he made that very clear and for what a few more seconds of holding a shield up that can easily be put down via stuns and blocking does relies in resistance and last time i checked resistance was still lack lust in pvp cause only 50% mitigation and armor debuffs and so on.

Just cause you like these changes doesn't mean every one else does.

Also what is the purpose of even making 3 different armor classes if they don't have different purposes ? LA magical base DPS and healing, MA physical base DPS, HA damage absorption. How else are the 3 different armor classes supposed to work ? What LA is meant for damage absorption and not HA ? Is that what you are saying ?

Oh my.

I can see there is no logical discussion with you. Either that or maybe you just need a hug or something man I'm not sure? So I will virtual you one.

/brohug there ya go man. Right in the feels.

Multiple people have commented on the subject. Yet because we do not agree with you doesn't mean we are enemies man. We just have a difference of opinions is all. You don't like wraith on HA. I do. Really all it boils down too.

UltimaJoe777 · July 2016

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

show previous quotes

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

I kinda like the spell damage wrath gives me...if you are suggesting adding additionAL penetration resist, fine. If you are suggesting replacing the damage, no thanks.

Sorry but heavy armor never needed a damage buff to begin with. Like sorry but its stupid that people think you can be a heavy armor DPS that what got heavy armor nerfed for 2 years to begin with was cause people want damage and to immortal. It's you area glass cannon, meat shield, or some where in between that not to immortal and not to cannon.

Wearing full robes you should be able to deal easily 20K damage but die in 1 or 2 hits, wearing full metal armor should take a entire raid to kill you and you should not be able to kill said raid.

Like really what are players not understanding about the purpose of heavy armor ? It's meant to take damage not deal it period there is no ifs ands or buts about it want damage wear LA or MA want defense wear HA want some where in between use some of your enchantments and attribute points into health.

Who the hell said I was using heavy in a DPS build? I heal/tank on my templar, and the extra spell damage is very useful to me since it is pretty much a free 200 SD to heal with as a tank.

Just because the passive doesn't fit with your narrow perception of how everything "should" work, doesn't mean that the passive isn't useful at all.

I completely agree with you. This whole "HA dps is the new META"??? I don't know who this guy is running VSO with but there is not HA DPS in the party lol. Also my numbers are way less than half for DPS compared to LA for HA. There are pros and cons with each type of armor, these passives on HA open the door (especially for pvp) for other builds instead of the ole cookie cutter ones.
I applaud ZOS for the changes they made to HA.

Indeed. While the passive may not "fit" in some people's minds, it allows for higher build versatility and niche build options. Besides, it's been how long since the changes to block cost? Get over it people, find a way.

How narrow minded are you 2 ? Really "Wraith adds versatility to builds" it is cause of wraith that is making players think they can be heavy armor DPS and some causes be heavy armor DPS and doesn't fit "my perception" ? Really ? Heavy armor is meant to absorb damage not ever deal it I have no idea where any one got the idea heavy armor needed a damage boost.

These changes to HA are ruin it giving false perspective making players think they can be immortal and a cannon and with cheese Malubeth still not nerfed yet players can be that that "door" is a door way to chaos that's eventually gonna lead to HA to be nerfed again.

Wraith needs to go and bracing needs to come back period. As for blocking yes Wrobel made it clear that you wanna block you have to literally give up everything to do it he made that very clear and for what a few more seconds of holding a shield up that can easily be put down via stuns and blocking does relies in resistance and last time i checked resistance was still lack lust in pvp cause only 50% mitigation and armor debuffs and so on.

Just cause you like these changes doesn't mean every one else does.

Also what is the purpose of even making 3 different armor classes if they don't have different purposes ? LA magical base DPS and healing, MA physical base DPS, HA damage absorption. How else are the 3 different armor classes supposed to work ? What LA is meant for damage absorption and not HA ? Is that what you are saying ?

Oh my.

I can see there is no logical discussion with you. Either that or maybe you just need a hug or something man I'm not sure? So I will virtual you one.

/brohug there ya go man. Right in the feels.

Multiple people have commented on the subject. Yet because we do not agree with you doesn't mean we are enemies man. We just have a difference of opinions is all. You don't like wraith on HA. I do. Really all it boils down too.

I can understand though. I mean they added something to aid DPS to an Armor line better suited for defense. I can get that, even if it means Zenimax favors DPS lol because it supports heavily armored warriors. However, we still need SOMEthing to deal with Penetration better so I figured we could bump off the thing that doesn't support defense for it. However, if that would displease some then perhaps just tack it onto Wrath and rename it?