MagDK vs. ANY Templar

Moglijuana

So, I have exclusively played my Mag DK for the past 6 or 7 months and have zero regrets. I know where the weaknesses are and what the strengths are of my class and in the right hands and in the right situation, MagDK's can easily be considered as one of the strongest classes for small group play. I get that. I use that to my advantage as I have found a selective group of players that I play with regularly.

I also play solo...a lot.

From playing solo (and dueling a metric f**k ton) I have learned quite a few things a long the way from my losses/wins/open world experiences. No matter how good you are, no matter how well you outplay someone, no matter how much pressure you can place...current game mechanics will never let you win against half decent Mag/Stam Templar. Yes, I have beaten plenty. Yes, I have lost to plenty more. I have lost to players who have never even come close to beating me on any other class besides a Templar. So, here are where my issues (and question?) lie.

1. Cleanse...Magicka DK's are a DOT heavy class. I have tried burst builds, dot builds, a mix of the two etc. Either way, dots have to be used in some form on a Mag DK. One cleansing ritual, and all your potential damage/pressure is thrown out the window and you now have to kite outside of the ritual...only for another one to be thrown down.

*2. Lack of Major/Minor Defile...this is probably one of the biggest issues I notice. I understand Standard of Might applies Major Defile (yes I use it against noobs) but if you come up against any decent player all it takes is a dodge roll and your ultimate is now useless. This leaves us with a disease enchant, or poisons (I will never use poisons in a duel) and puts all the pressure up to your damaging abilities...which are affected by #1.

3. Major Mending/BoL,Vigor+Rally/Malubeth <----this is for trolls...Templars should excel at healing, that is completely fine. Mag Templars should be better than Stamina Templars at healing imo simply due to the fact that they have access to BoL more so than Stam. However, because of #1 and #2 their ONE heal literally negates any/all pressure you can apply to them (this is assuming the player I am fighting has reactions quick enough to counter...the good players are always quick enough, as they should be).

*****4.Lack of an Execute on Mag DK...again. I am very confident in my ability to play Mag DK. It's what I want and do play each and every day and it will never stop. Even with #'s 1,2,3 stated above, a good rotation will usually hit pretty hard (VERY hard if everything is procced) for a few moments (after a hard cc/meteor/dot combo) and sometimes grant you with a kill. However, I can't begin to explain how many times I have had an enemy templar in execute range with all my dots ticking, a stun lock going off to stand in my meteor, the snare in the meteor and...they just dodge roll, BoL/rally+vigor/cleanse...reset.

So...is there a way to counter all of this without having to nerf templars? I don't think they need one necessarily.

Is the only way to solve this by buffing Mag DK outright? I think they are in a good spot right now to be honest and buffing them could just screw everything up as I don't want my class to be a FOTM/Malubeth wearing/MLG pro.

I want fair fights where if I lose, it is because I made a mistake not because game mechanics are working against me. Thoughts?

p.s. Quick Stats : 39k Max Magicka, 25k HP, 16.1k Stam, 3.9k SD (fully buffed), 1582 Mag Recovery, 2.2k crit resist and w.e resist 5H/1M/1L gives me.

Xvorg

How high do your flame DoTs tick?

BTW, I don't think the execute is the problem when facing a templar, but the major defile absence. Only templars as magicka users have access to it (NBs too, but incap strike in a mageblade is like a stam DK with a resto staff), so it gives us templars against templars. Or templars against stamina

Anyway, if it was me, I'll give an execute to everyone changing this skill snare for it:



And maybe minor/major defile on this one



those changes would make this set a real option:




Nice, right? But that's in a perfect world, and this is ESO, AKA Templaria, so thee best option is to reroll a templar or respec stam

Moglijuana

@Xvorg Hmm those skill changes would actually be a good idea...considering no one even uses soul trap lol. It would bring it back into being something useful and available to everyone, like poison inject.

Um, I haven't really paid attention to what the ticks hit for but I know my unbuffed tool tip for Burning Embers is 16.9k over 10ish seconds, talons is 4.9 initial and another 4.9 over 4 seconds.

Baconlad

What the f***? Why is everyone all of a sudden saying template are oober best? I mean, we don't suck. But I think templar is damn close to balanced. Other than trying a ranged magicka build...that works...although mag DKs trump almost everything I do..i can run away is best I can manage. All other classes are better than templar at their role except healing and tanking. Stamina DPS? Nightblade and DK do it better. Magicka DPS? Sorc does it better. Like I said.. We don't suck, but other classes need weakness brought up to par with their strengths

Moglijuana

Baconlad wrote: »

What the f***? Why is everyone all of a sudden saying template are oober best? I mean, we don't suck. But I think templar is damn close to balanced. Other than trying a ranged magicka build...that works...although mag DKs trump almost everything I do..i can run away is best I can manage. All other classes are better than templar at their role except healing and tanking. Stamina DPS? Nightblade and DK do it better. Magicka DPS? Sorc does it better. Like I said.. We don't suck, but other classes need weakness brought up to par with their strengths

Sigh. Did you even read dude? I never said templars need a nerf...I actually think they are pretty balanced. I'm trying to explain how current game mechanics prevent an evenly skilled/geared MagDK from beating an evenly skilled/geard Mag/Stam Templar regardless of how many mistakes are made/not made. I'm trying to figure out a way to bring them both on the same level without destroying the other class...

I beat Templars a lot don't get me wrong, but I have noticed (after plentyyyy of 20 minute duels) that they are the hardest counter ever to MagDK regardless of how skillful the player is and end up being the class I lose to the most.

Sandman929

A DoT heavy build against a class that can remove DoTs constantly and cheaply is a tough match-up, I agree with the OP

Paraflex

I will speak from a healing Templar point of view. Healing in this game is to strong from Wards/HoT's/Direct Heals/AoE Heals/BoL all needs to be toned down. People should die faster than they currently do. I can't ever kill people when I am in my healer build but in a 1v1 I can't die either.

I think just by adjust healing across the board it would help Mag DK's. Healing costs should be increased by 10-20% across the board its an easy adjustment and makes fights end sooner. This would effect all classes unfortunately.

Sandman929

Paraflex wrote: »

I will speak from a healing Templar point of view. Healing in this game is to strong from Wards/HoT's/Direct Heals/AoE Heals/BoL all needs to be toned down. People should die faster than they currently do. I can't ever kill people when I am in my healer build but in a 1v1 I can't die either.

I think just by adjust healing across the board it would help Mag DK's. Healing costs should be increased by 10-20% across the board its an easy adjustment and makes fights end sooner. This would effect all classes unfortunately.

Why exactly do people need to die faster?

Moglijuana

Paraflex wrote: »

I will speak from a healing Templar point of view. Healing in this game is to strong from Wards/HoT's/Direct Heals/AoE Heals/BoL all needs to be toned down. People should die faster than they currently do. I can't ever kill people when I am in my healer build but in a 1v1 I can't die either.

I think just by adjust healing across the board it would help Mag DK's. Healing costs should be increased by 10-20% across the board its an easy adjustment and makes fights end sooner. This would effect all classes unfortunately.

I'd be ok with an increase in healing costs/ decrease heals given out. There are times where my Burning Embers gives me an entire health bar of HP back...THAT I think is a bit unbalanced. No one should ever go from 1 hp to Full health with the press of one instant cast button. Put a Cast time on strong heals maybe? The only thing they would have to be careful with is how it affects PvE unfortunately.

Sandman929 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

I will speak from a healing Templar point of view. Healing in this game is to strong from Wards/HoT's/Direct Heals/AoE Heals/BoL all needs to be toned down. People should die faster than they currently do. I can't ever kill people when I am in my healer build but in a 1v1 I can't die either.

I think just by adjust healing across the board it would help Mag DK's. Healing costs should be increased by 10-20% across the board its an easy adjustment and makes fights end sooner. This would effect all classes unfortunately.

Why exactly do people need to die faster?

A fight between two people should NEVER last 20+ minutes...and it happens every single day. The Champion System unfortunately makes Outhealing DPS way too easy which lets people live way longer than they should even when they make multiple mistakes in a fight.

leepalmer95

Sandman929 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

I will speak from a healing Templar point of view. Healing in this game is to strong from Wards/HoT's/Direct Heals/AoE Heals/BoL all needs to be toned down. People should die faster than they currently do. I can't ever kill people when I am in my healer build but in a 1v1 I can't die either.

I think just by adjust healing across the board it would help Mag DK's. Healing costs should be increased by 10-20% across the board its an easy adjustment and makes fights end sooner. This would effect all classes unfortunately.

Why exactly do people need to die faster?

Well i do agree healing needs to be toned down.

When people can use BoL and crit for higher than 12k thats a problem.

Mag dk's are missing quite a few things and need tweaking their burst dmg just isn't there.

yodased

My personal opinion is that every single class and every single build should have exactly this.

There should be something or someone that so completely shuts down your build you can't beat them, because there is someone else they can't beat.

It's not that way right now, but I think this should be much more common

Moglijuana

yodased wrote: »

My personal opinion is that every single class and every single build should have exactly this.

There should be something or someone that so completely shuts down your build you can't beat them, because there is someone else they can't beat.

It's not that way right now, but I think this should be much more common

I am actually 100% ok with this. It's a group oriented game and builds should apply to that theme. However, the current problem is that some class/builds excel at everything and some class builds are only good at only a few.

For example, a fully geared Redguard Stam NB can get to upwards of 39k stamina + 4k weap damage. Not only do they hit hard, but their vigor ticks hit for 5k ish A TICK. No glass cannon should ever be able to outheal an entire rotation of damaging abilities with one heal. Yet...I think NB's are more balanced than my MagDK lolol.

yodased

Moglijuana wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

My personal opinion is that every single class and every single build should have exactly this.

There should be something or someone that so completely shuts down your build you can't beat them, because there is someone else they can't beat.

It's not that way right now, but I think this should be much more common

I am actually 100% ok with this. It's a group oriented game and builds should apply to that theme. However, the current problem is that some class/builds excel at everything and some class builds are only good at only a few.

For example, a fully geared Redguard Stam NB can get to upwards of 39k stamina + 4k weap damage. Not only do they hit hard, but their vigor ticks hit for 5k ish A TICK. No glass cannon should ever be able to outheal an entire rotation of damaging abilities with one heal. Yet...I think NB's are more balanced than my MagDK lolol.

I play a caster mDK, so I understand your pain I think more than most, I was just commenting on the concept. I think that would make the game a lot more fun and interesting if we all had counters.

Making this elder superhereos online was an odd choice

Sharee

Moglijuana wrote: »

1. Cleanse...Magicka DK's are a DOT heavy class. I have tried burst builds, dot builds, a mix of the two etc. Either way, dots have to be used in some form on a Mag DK. One cleansing ritual, and all your potential damage/pressure is thrown out the window and you now have to kite outside of the ritual...only for another one to be thrown down.

And to add insult to the injury, a stamina templar will then hit you with unblockable heavy weapons bleed DOT that ticks for over 2K damage that you have no way to rid yourself of... yea, the joys of playing a mDK

Moglijuana

yodased wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

My personal opinion is that every single class and every single build should have exactly this.

There should be something or someone that so completely shuts down your build you can't beat them, because there is someone else they can't beat.

It's not that way right now, but I think this should be much more common

I am actually 100% ok with this. It's a group oriented game and builds should apply to that theme. However, the current problem is that some class/builds excel at everything and some class builds are only good at only a few.

For example, a fully geared Redguard Stam NB can get to upwards of 39k stamina + 4k weap damage. Not only do they hit hard, but their vigor ticks hit for 5k ish A TICK. No glass cannon should ever be able to outheal an entire rotation of damaging abilities with one heal. Yet...I think NB's are more balanced than my MagDK lolol.

I play a caster mDK, so I understand your pain I think more than most, I was just commenting on the concept. I think that would make the game a lot more fun and interesting if we all had counters.

Making this elder superhereos online was an odd choice

Ahh, bless your heart, the good 'ol PvP fire mage. That is what I originally played as and is what got me hooked to mDK...I've had to adapt since IC release to say the least lol.

Lexxypwns

I have a good deal of success by pushing a templar to about 75%, popping a spell power pot(mostly for dat crit), deep breath, meteor, vamp drain(or fossilize), whip. 60% of the time it works every time.

Moglijuana

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I have a good deal of success by pushing a templar to about 75%, popping a spell power pot(mostly for dat crit), dropping meteor, vamp drain(or fossilize), whip. 60% of the time it works every time.

LOL. Oh the feels man, the feels! I know exactly what you mean

Lexxypwns

Moglijuana wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I have a good deal of success by pushing a templar to about 75%, popping a spell power pot(mostly for dat crit), dropping meteor, vamp drain(or fossilize), whip. 60% of the time it works every time.

LOL. Oh the feels man, the feels! I know exactly what you mean

I find mDK to have the proper tools not to be killed by a templar but you need a mistake on their part to finish the kill, but it is oh so satisfying to finally seal that kill

Lokey0024

Isnt a traditional dk build. This basically sums up how fight go with no execute.

https://youtu.be/j9OPKN5cQQs

Lexxypwns

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Isnt a traditional dk build. This basically sums up how fight go with no execute.

https://youtu.be/j9OPKN5cQQs

use meteor as your execute

Paraflex

Sandman929 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

I will speak from a healing Templar point of view. Healing in this game is to strong from Wards/HoT's/Direct Heals/AoE Heals/BoL all needs to be toned down. People should die faster than they currently do. I can't ever kill people when I am in my healer build but in a 1v1 I can't die either.

I think just by adjust healing across the board it would help Mag DK's. Healing costs should be increased by 10-20% across the board its an easy adjustment and makes fights end sooner. This would effect all classes unfortunately.

Why exactly do people need to die faster?

People in this game can live for to long or just get into a 1v1 stalemate. You should have to choose what you cast and how you use it not have infinite resources.

Moglijuana

@Lokey0024 lol. I was rooting for you the entire time knowing exactly what those shoes feel like. But yea, Meteor is usually my execute if needed.

Lokey0024

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Isnt a traditional dk build. This basically sums up how fight go with no execute.

https://youtu.be/j9OPKN5cQQs

use meteor as your execute

So my only option is a 200 ult cost skill? Would have worked i know. I think my molten armernments could use their old execute buff at <50% scaling too 300%. Would love it.

Lokey0024

Moglijuana wrote: »

@Lokey0024 lol. I was rooting for you the entire time knowing exactly what those shoes feel like. But yea, Meteor is usually my execute if needed.

Thx man. MDks are the hardest class imo. Just amazed how he sat at <30% most the fight and i couldnt touch him because the undeath scaling. Would love to have Dragon blood fixed so i can ditch resto for SnB, could do some real work with that.

Moglijuana

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

@Lokey0024 lol. I was rooting for you the entire time knowing exactly what those shoes feel like. But yea, Meteor is usually my execute if needed.

Thx man. MDks are the hardest class imo. Just amazed how he sat at <30% most the fight and i couldnt touch him because the undeath scaling. Would love to have Dragon blood fixed so i can ditch resto for SnB, could do some real work with that.

Yup I agree. I WISH molten kept its 300% Scaling, nothing like killing people with a heavy attack from 50% health lol. And yes, I've tried a few S&SH builds with coagulating, but healing ward is too OP to give up for a sub par % based heal =/.

Ashamray

Use talons often. Looks like you even don't know how talons annoy templars

leepalmer95

Ashamray wrote: »

Use talons often. Looks like you even don't know how talons annoy templars

They can purge talons too, ritual is cheaper than talons.

Lokey0024

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Use talons often. Looks like you even don't know how talons annoy templars

They can purge talons too, ritual is cheaper than talons.

Most dk skills are 1k more cost then any other class that performs a simular function. Sucks.

Moglijuana

Lokey0024 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Use talons often. Looks like you even don't know how talons annoy templars

They can purge talons too, ritual is cheaper than talons.

Most dk skills are 1k more cost then any other class that performs a simular function. Sucks.

Correct. Mag DK skills are expensive AF. And they get cleansed/dodged half the time anyways lol.

@Ashamray Cleansing ritual makes Talons somewhat useless unfortunately . So does shuffle.

Lokey0024

Also would like to mention that health regen can completely nullify dot damage because half the tooltip/time of effect =less then passive health on most single dot abilities, so you need to slot 2 or 3 to be effective at all. Having defile on dk specific dots would help but thats blasphemy.


So, recap. What counters dots?everything(purge, HoTs, burst heal, passive regen, its own champion point %reduction)

Why do you run a mdk? Group buffs and cc

Can you solo most good players? Not likely unless you glass cannon.

Verdict: roll a fotm templar and use malbeth

Ashamray

Moglijuana wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Use talons often. Looks like you even don't know how talons annoy templars

They can purge talons too, ritual is cheaper than talons.

Most dk skills are 1k more cost then any other class that performs a simular function. Sucks.

Correct. Mag DK skills are expensive AF. And they get cleansed/dodged half the time anyways lol.

@Ashamray Cleansing ritual makes Talons somewhat useless unfortunately . So does shuffle.

Talons should be used to stop templar's jabs landing. Using talons you not only roots but reduces damage taken form templar. Mdk has a lot of CC, that's usefull.
Templar's skills are also expensive.