Math on Stamina Recovery While Blocking

Ffastyl

A recent poll on stamina recovery while blocking sparked some math on the subject. It is common knowledge that tanks are miffed about 0% recovery while blocking, but are living with it. Let us find a compromise between developer and player wants. The developers want to punish turtling (holding block indefinitely, like a turtle hiding in its shell), in both PvE and PvP so recovery is at its current 0% while blocking. Players want a less punishing alternative. @Wrobel 's Detailed Explanation of Block Cost Changes sheds light on how low block cost can be and how often that cost is deducted. With the highest frequency of 0.5 seconds, 1600 recovery is required to negate 400 block cost (after Constitution is factored). From an old thread (too old to find) on a high recovery Sorcerer build, 5k magicka recovery was attained. Assume the same or similar amount can be achieved for stamina. To handle edge cases (rare builds not directly accounted for) let us assume it possible to achieve minimum block cost (400) and maximum recovery in the same build. Then the percentage recovery that allows block cost to be negated:

1600 / 5000 = 32%

However, the math for other recovery values must be calculated as 5000 is not proven to be the highest possible.

5500 => 29.09%
6000 => 26.67%
6500 => 24.62%
7000 => 22.86%
7500 => 21.33%
8000 => 20.00%
8500 => 18.82%
9000 => 17.78%
9500 => 16.84%

And lower values.

4500 => 35.56%
4000 => 40.00%
3500 => 45.71%
3000 => 53.33%
2500 => 64.00%
2000 => 80.00%

These numbers cover the case where the player is being wailed on - block cost is charged every 0.5 seconds according to its cooldown. So these numbers should be adjusted for a more common case: being attacked once a second. Constitution's reduction on stamina cost is doubled in this case, bringing block cost down to 261. To negate 261 stamina every second, 522 recovery is needed. Recalculating the values above with this value,

522 / 2000 = 26.10%
2500 => 20.88%
3000 => 17.40%
3500 => 14.91%
4000 => 13.05%
4500 => 11.60%
5000 => 10.44%
5500 => 09.49%
6000 => 08.70%
6500 => 08.03%
7000 => 07.46%
7500 => 06.96%
8000 => 06.53%
8500 => 06.14%
9000 => 05.80%
9500 => 05.49%

@Wrobel 's calculations also only account for epic/purple block cost reduction enchantments and 1 Sturdy piece. Redoing his calculations with legendary/gold enchantments and 8 Sturdy pieces,

Base Block Cost: 2160
25% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .75 = 1620
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1620 – 203x3 = 1620 – 609 = 1011
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1011 * .56 = 566
Sturdy x8: 566 * .68 = 385
Constitution 1 second: 385 – 326 = 59

118 / 2000 = 5.900%
3000 => 3.933%
4000 => 2.950%
5000 => 2.360%
6000 => 1.967%
7000 => 1.686%
8000 => 1.475%
9000 => 1.311%

As it stands, 1% is the highest recovery players can ask for while blocking until all edge cases are found. To help the players' case, more experimental data is needed. Namely, the precise construction of a build that can achieve this block cost so it can be theorized how much stamina recovery it can actually maintain, and/or the highest possible stamina recovery build so it can be theorized how low a block cost it can get. Alternatively Shadow Ward can be lobbied for a reduction in power, so allowing stamina recovery while blocking cannot result in negating the cost under any circumstance.

Math on lower reductions from Shadow Ward:

16% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .84 = 1814
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1814 – 203x3 = 1814 – 609 = 1205
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1205 * .56 = 675
Sturdy x8: 675 * .68 = 459
Constitution 1 second: 459 – 326 = 133

266 / 2000 = 13.30%
3000 => 8.867%
4000 => 6.650%
5000 => 5.320%
6000 => 4.433%
7000 => 3.800%

12% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .88 = 1901
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1901 – 203x3 = 1901 – 609 = 1292
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1292 * .56 = 724
Sturdy x8: 724 * .68 = 492
Constitution 1 second: 492 – 326 = 166

332 / 2000 = 16.60%
3000 => 11.07%
4000 => 8.300%
5000 => 6.640%
6000 => 5.533%
7000 => 4.743%

I hope following me through my math journey has helped you understand why stamina recovery is 0 while blocking and how we can possibly change this.

Vangy

Ffastyl wrote: »

A recent poll on stamina recovery while blocking sparked some math on the subject. It is common knowledge that tanks are miffed about 0% recovery while blocking, but are living with it. Let us find a compromise between developer and player wants. The developers want to punish turtling (holding block indefinitely, like a turtle hiding in its shell), in both PvE and PvP so recovery is at its current 0% while blocking. Players want a less punishing alternative. @Wrobel 's Detailed Explanation of Block Cost Changes sheds light on how low block cost can be and how often that cost is deducted. With the highest frequency of 0.5 seconds, 1600 recovery is required to negate 400 block cost (after Constitution is factored). From an old thread (too old to find) on a high recovery Sorcerer build, 5k magicka recovery was attained. Assume the same or similar amount can be achieved for stamina. To handle edge cases (rare builds not directly accounted for) let us assume it possible to achieve minimum block cost (400) and maximum recovery in the same build. Then the percentage recovery that allows block cost to be negated:

1600 / 5000 = 32%

However, the math for other recovery values must be calculated as 5000 is not proven to be the highest possible.

5500 => 29.09%
6000 => 26.67%
6500 => 24.62%
7000 => 22.86%
7500 => 21.33%
8000 => 20.00%
8500 => 18.82%
9000 => 17.78%
9500 => 16.84%

And lower values.

4500 => 35.56%
4000 => 40.00%
3500 => 45.71%
3000 => 53.33%
2500 => 64.00%
2000 => 80.00%

These numbers cover the case where the player is being wailed on - block cost is charged every 0.5 seconds according to its cooldown. So these numbers should be adjusted for a more common case: being attacked once a second. Constitution's reduction on stamina cost is doubled in this case, bringing block cost down to 261. To negate 261 stamina every second, 522 recovery is needed. Recalculating the values above with this value,

522 / 2000 = 26.10%
2500 => 20.88%
3000 => 17.40%
3500 => 14.91%
4000 => 13.05%
4500 => 11.60%
5000 => 10.44%
5500 => 09.49%
6000 => 08.70%
6500 => 08.03%
7000 => 07.46%
7500 => 06.96%
8000 => 06.53%
8500 => 06.14%
9000 => 05.80%
9500 => 05.49%

@Wrobel 's calculations also only account for epic/purple block cost reduction enchantments and 1 Sturdy piece. Redoing his calculations with legendary/gold enchantments and 8 Sturdy pieces,

Base Block Cost: 2160
25% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .75 = 1620
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1620 – 203x3 = 1620 – 609 = 1011
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1011 * .56 = 566
Sturdy x8: 566 * .68 = 385
Constitution 1 second: 385 – 326 = 59

118 / 2000 = 5.900%
3000 => 3.933%
4000 => 2.950%
5000 => 2.360%
6000 => 1.967%
7000 => 1.686%
8000 => 1.475%
9000 => 1.311%

As it stands, 1% is the highest recovery players can ask for while blocking until all edge cases are found. To help the players' case, more experimental data is needed. Namely, the precise construction of a build that can achieve this block cost so it can be theorized how much stamina recovery it can actually maintain, and/or the highest possible stamina recovery build so it can be theorized how low a block cost it can get. Alternatively Shadow Ward can be lobbied for a reduction in power, so allowing stamina recovery while blocking cannot result in negating the cost under any circumstance.

Math on lower reductions from Shadow Ward:

16% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .84 = 1814
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1814 – 203x3 = 1814 – 609 = 1205
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1205 * .56 = 675
Sturdy x8: 675 * .68 = 459
Constitution 1 second: 459 – 326 = 133

266 / 2000 = 13.30%
3000 => 8.867%
4000 => 6.650%
5000 => 5.320%
6000 => 4.433%
7000 => 3.800%

12% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .88 = 1901
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1901 – 203x3 = 1901 – 609 = 1292
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1292 * .56 = 724
Sturdy x8: 724 * .68 = 492
Constitution 1 second: 492 – 326 = 166

332 / 2000 = 16.60%
3000 => 11.07%
4000 => 8.300%
5000 => 6.640%
6000 => 5.533%
7000 => 4.743%

I hope following me through my math journey has helped you understand why stamina recovery is 0 while blocking and how we can possibly change this.

Nice math... The only problem is, this will work for PvE.... but you cant PvP with 5 piece heavy + 8 sturdy pieces + x3 block cost reduction. You will be a 1.5k weapon damage walking potato with 0 purpose in life but to talon spam and wait for zergs to come save u or roll over u.

leepalmer95

Ffastyl wrote: »

A recent poll on stamina recovery while blocking sparked some math on the subject. It is common knowledge that tanks are miffed about 0% recovery while blocking, but are living with it. Let us find a compromise between developer and player wants. The developers want to punish turtling (holding block indefinitely, like a turtle hiding in its shell), in both PvE and PvP so recovery is at its current 0% while blocking. Players want a less punishing alternative. @Wrobel 's Detailed Explanation of Block Cost Changes sheds light on how low block cost can be and how often that cost is deducted. With the highest frequency of 0.5 seconds, 1600 recovery is required to negate 400 block cost (after Constitution is factored). From an old thread (too old to find) on a high recovery Sorcerer build, 5k magicka recovery was attained. Assume the same or similar amount can be achieved for stamina. To handle edge cases (rare builds not directly accounted for) let us assume it possible to achieve minimum block cost (400) and maximum recovery in the same build. Then the percentage recovery that allows block cost to be negated:

1600 / 5000 = 32%

However, the math for other recovery values must be calculated as 5000 is not proven to be the highest possible.

5500 => 29.09%
6000 => 26.67%
6500 => 24.62%
7000 => 22.86%
7500 => 21.33%
8000 => 20.00%
8500 => 18.82%
9000 => 17.78%
9500 => 16.84%

And lower values.

4500 => 35.56%
4000 => 40.00%
3500 => 45.71%
3000 => 53.33%
2500 => 64.00%
2000 => 80.00%

These numbers cover the case where the player is being wailed on - block cost is charged every 0.5 seconds according to its cooldown. So these numbers should be adjusted for a more common case: being attacked once a second. Constitution's reduction on stamina cost is doubled in this case, bringing block cost down to 261. To negate 261 stamina every second, 522 recovery is needed. Recalculating the values above with this value,

522 / 2000 = 26.10%
2500 => 20.88%
3000 => 17.40%
3500 => 14.91%
4000 => 13.05%
4500 => 11.60%
5000 => 10.44%
5500 => 09.49%
6000 => 08.70%
6500 => 08.03%
7000 => 07.46%
7500 => 06.96%
8000 => 06.53%
8500 => 06.14%
9000 => 05.80%
9500 => 05.49%

@Wrobel 's calculations also only account for epic/purple block cost reduction enchantments and 1 Sturdy piece. Redoing his calculations with legendary/gold enchantments and 8 Sturdy pieces,

Base Block Cost: 2160
25% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .75 = 1620
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1620 – 203x3 = 1620 – 609 = 1011
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1011 * .56 = 566
Sturdy x8: 566 * .68 = 385
Constitution 1 second: 385 – 326 = 59

118 / 2000 = 5.900%
3000 => 3.933%
4000 => 2.950%
5000 => 2.360%
6000 => 1.967%
7000 => 1.686%
8000 => 1.475%
9000 => 1.311%

As it stands, 1% is the highest recovery players can ask for while blocking until all edge cases are found. To help the players' case, more experimental data is needed. Namely, the precise construction of a build that can achieve this block cost so it can be theorized how much stamina recovery it can actually maintain, and/or the highest possible stamina recovery build so it can be theorized how low a block cost it can get. Alternatively Shadow Ward can be lobbied for a reduction in power, so allowing stamina recovery while blocking cannot result in negating the cost under any circumstance.

Math on lower reductions from Shadow Ward:

16% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .84 = 1814
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1814 – 203x3 = 1814 – 609 = 1205
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1205 * .56 = 675
Sturdy x8: 675 * .68 = 459
Constitution 1 second: 459 – 326 = 133

266 / 2000 = 13.30%
3000 => 8.867%
4000 => 6.650%
5000 => 5.320%
6000 => 4.433%
7000 => 3.800%

12% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .88 = 1901
3x gold block cost enchantments: 1901 – 203x3 = 1901 – 609 = 1292
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1292 * .56 = 724
Sturdy x8: 724 * .68 = 492
Constitution 1 second: 492 – 326 = 166

332 / 2000 = 16.60%
3000 => 11.07%
4000 => 8.300%
5000 => 6.640%
6000 => 5.533%
7000 => 4.743%

I hope following me through my math journey has helped you understand why stamina recovery is 0 while blocking and how we can possibly change this.

Try doing this in relation to pvp?

Holding block in pvp just simply isn't enough.

Ffastyl

Vangy wrote: »

Nice math... The only problem is, this will work for PvE.... but you cant PvP with 5 piece heavy + 8 sturdy pieces + x3 block cost reduction. You will be a 1.5k weapon damage walking potato with 0 purpose in life but to talon spam and wait for zergs to come save u or roll over u.

Whether they achieve so with block cost reduction is another matter, but there are rare tanks in PvP that even a raid cannot kill. They have appropriately low damage output - not enough to kill anyone - but they harass groups perpetually, no one able to kill them.

My own Dragonknight build works with minimum weapon damage and deals 4k damage a hit after Battle Spirit reductions - Molten Armaments + Melee Weapon Expert. Again, not possible to achieve the lowest possible block cost but focusing on attrition, very few can best it one versus one.

*All items are purple unless otherwise specified.
Armor
Reinforced Heavy Morkuldin x5
Reinforced Heavy Willow's Path x2
Healthy Endurance Necklace
Robust Endurance Ring x2
Weapons
Legendary Sharpened Greatsword of the Willow's Path w/ Weapon Damage enchant
Legendary Defending Sword of the Willow's Path w/ Absorb Magicka enchant
Reinforced Shield of the Willow's Path w/ Legendary Stamina enchant

*All enchantments are legendary.
Enchantments
Health Recovery x3
Stamina x6
Prismatic x1

Drink/Food
Lusty Argonian Maid Mazte (tri-stat)

Boon
Steed

Race
Imperial

*Unbuffed, drink not active, outside Cyrodiil.
Stats
weapon1/weapon2
10631 / 10631-Maximum Magicka
704 / 702- - - - -Magicka Recovery
25011 / 25011-Maximum Health
1210 / 1443- - -Health Recovery
21621 / 22767-Maximum Stamina
1231 / 1229- - -Stamina Recovery

1571 / 1335- - -Spell Damage
10% / 10%- - - - Spell Critical
1830 / 1531- - -Weapon Damage
22% / 22%- - - - Weapon Critical

22372 / 28292-Spell Resistance
19072 / 24992-Physical Resistance
733 / 733- - - - -Critical Resistance

Champion Points
501
Warlord - - - - - - - - - - - - 20
Mooncalf - - - - - - - - - - -27
Arcanist - - - - - - - - - - - -27
Healthy - - - - - - - - - - - - 27
Tumbling - - - - - - - - - - -39
Shadow Ward - - - - - - - 27
Melee Weapon Expert 75
Mighty - - - - - - - - - - - - -92
Resistant - - - - - - - - - - -30
Thick Skinned - - - - - - -27
Hardy - - - - - - - - - - - - - 50
Elemental Defender - - 50
Quick Recovery - - - - - -10

This criticism is why we need the numbers on a build that can achieve minimum block cost -- what can it do besides blocking?

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Try doing this in relation to pvp?

Holding block in pvp just simply isn't enough.

Before the removal of stamina recovery, blocking was enough. Blocking was enough to make the difference between armor types negligible. Before the removal, one person could hold down eight players for several minutes by turtling. None of the eight would die, but that is a major loss of manpower on the battlefield.


The calculations hold up for PvP as the player is being hit more variably in frequency but the cooldown on block cost still stands as does the cooldown on abilities. A player might be able to get four hits in a second (ie Biting Jabs) but the cost is still charged twice a second.

Please do not quote the OP. It takes longer to scroll through the quote than it does to read your posts.

Vangy

@Ffastyl

I get what your saying. And I do have a DK tank who is unkillable.... I run with 5 black rose + 5 fasallas + 2 mal/2engin comboed with triple block cost reduc and 50 pts in shadow ward lol. Have 32k health, 25k resists and 30k stam with 14k mag. Pretty much perma block and talon spam with caltrops + healing debuff a whole zerg of potatoes with fasal + standard while siege wipes them out.

The thing is, there is no middle ground for blocking. You either make a perma blocking tank, or you dont bother with blocking. There is no viable middle ground for open world. Sure in duelling you can make very good SnB builds with minimal investment into blocking but this just dosent work in any outnumbered situations.

We need to find a way to allow tanks to exist without perma blocking openworld without empowering DPS builds to abuse mechanics with SnB and be unkillable too.

Solariken

Thanks for the maths @Ffastyl. We need to keep beating this horse until ZOS removes the bandaid and implements an intelligent solution.

I still think the increasing cost mechanic (a la dodge roll) is a sensible option. Someone should be able to net positive regen for a handful of blocks, but eventually cost will overtake regen and the player will have to either drop block or burn stamina.