Why Impen is Overrated

Armitas

It isn't overrated because in most cases it will be the only mitigation you have thanks to the ridiculous amount of penetration floating around.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

I'm glad I posted this. Seems like we have some good dialogue going and, admittedly more people than I ever thought agreeing with my original post.

I believe it's important to discuss things like this as opposed to just accepting the common belief as fact.

On a side note I have been running all day with only 23k health in Scourge XBox NA and have been both the last person alive at a outpost defense (I was finally swallowed by 40+ yellows) and was insta-ganked while running a treb. Both scenarios are common and one shows how unimportant impen is, while the other shows a time where I could have possibly lived if I was running it.

But as said earlier, there are so many people built to kill or be killed within 2 seconds I find it hard to invest in a trait that only partially helps some of the time.

thankyourat

raasdal wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/I3wqbhXlaAM

This is why. You could say skill is the equalizer, but if you get caught in a combo that crits you're smoked.

17k take flight btw ;D

This video shows nothing at all about the relevance of impen. No one even knows if ppl here are wearing impen or not.

If you get hit by a crit combo of swing and take flight like that, you die no matter what.

come on. As i have just shown, wearing impen does not make you immune to crits.

But it lets you survive peoples burst damage. It makes a huge difference I could tell once I switched over how much more survivability i had. The way this game is played your opponent has a small window to burst you down and if they can't you will just heal back up to full. If you are running in large groups it's not as big of a deal because you have survivability in numbers but if you want to run small group or solo it's a must to run some impen

Eshelmen

Even if impen only mitigated a few hundred damage at best, over time that's one or two less heals, one or two less dodge rolls etc that you have to use.

It all adds up.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Eshelmen wrote: »

Even if impen only mitigated a few hundred damage at best, over time that's one or two less heals, one or two less dodge rolls etc that you have to use.

It all adds up.

This is true. However, does it add up as fast as 20% more enchantment strength from infused? I do not believe so. Your mileage may vary.

xblackroxe

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Eshelmen wrote: »

Even if impen only mitigated a few hundred damage at best, over time that's one or two less heals, one or two less dodge rolls etc that you have to use.

It all adds up.

This is true. However, does it add up as fast as 20% more enchantment strength from infused? I do not believe so. Your mileage may vary.

It does completely different things though. Except of course you have health enchants.

Impen does make a difference. I can see it on my damage numbers that a person is wearing impen. Also at the beginning I switched from divines to impen because I couldn´t survive bursty opponents (I dont mean gankers, I´m talking about burst dueling builds that can still sustain for days) and impen trait really helped.

leepalmer95

Yes, this guy 100% knows what he's talking about, you should 100% listen to this guy and go full divines. 5k SA or 9k crit Sa whats the difference right.

Please do the right thing and don't use impen.

My nb thanks you for the free ap.

Molag_Crow

With 2000 crit resist, somebody's Overload was hitting me for 2.4k until he crit for 10k. My food buff ran out at the time so I was missing 4k-ish Health. This proves to me that Impen is quite brilliant(?) Edit: Nvm I'm confusing myself now...

Ampnode

raasdal wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

Listen to this guy, please. Dropping impen will give me easier kills. I'd love for my 8K~ Dizzying Swings to reach 12K~.

This is a good example of what i described the post before, about the inbred idea that impen is somehow OP for everything.

On a shieldef mag sorc your dizzying swing will hit for 8k no matter what. Against my Mag NB you will never hit me with that Swing. IF you do, i will be dead no matter if you hit me for 8k or 12k.

Finally - from 8k to 12k? Really? You think that the difference between 7 pcs impen and no impen is 50% damage increase / 33% damage redux on full damage?

I will do some quick math behind it, to show how wrong that statement is.

You have an 8k crit swing against full impen. That is your statement. Assuming standard 50% crit damage and an app. 25% redux from impen (7 pcs.) that means you did 6400 normal damage, and got 1600 crit bonus.

Now same with no impen at all. You will hit for full crit, which would be a 3200 crit bonus, making it total a whopping 9,6k swing.

So NO - your 8k swing will not suddenly become a 12k swing because your target is not wearing impen.

Class dismissed...

Somebody took that post a bit too serious, champ.

xblackroxe

Molag_Crow wrote: »

With 2000 crit resist, somebody's Overload was hitting me for 2.4k until he crit for 10k. My food buff ran out at the time so I was missing 4k-ish Health. This proves to me that Impen is quite brilliant.

Yeah you are right its definitely a crit. Have you ever seen a crit modifier of 4?
LOL definitely "shows" how bad impen is

leepalmer95

Most nb's have 175% crit dmg.
Most other classes around 160% or 165%.

That is without shadow.

If my Sa would hit you for 5k normal hit, if you refuse to stack impen then it will hit for 8,750.

3.750 extra dmg is no joke. Thats not including my weave before it, i've crit for like 4k's on that.

My incap has a 18k tooltip. Go ahead, please don't use impen.

My ult's are usually empowered so my 21.6k tooltip will be halfed in pvp, 10.5k.

Take into account armour and cp etc.. and it'll hit for 8k~ non crit.

Without impen it'll hit for 14k and this is where all those 'Incap' is OP thread are coming from, oh it's hitting too hard but i still refuse to use impen because i know better and it's not needed.

With impen of around 2500, 30% reduction~

That 14k becomes 11.6k,

With 3300 cap, 50% reduction, 14k becomes 10k.

But hey i'm sure that extra 500 magicka and 50 regen is worth getting hit so much harder.

IcyDeadPeople

Molag_Crow wrote: »

With 2000 crit resist, somebody's Overload was hitting me for 2.4k until he crit for 10k. My food buff ran out at the time so I was missing 4k-ish Health. This proves to me that Impen is quite brilliant.

I believe impen doesnt reduce the frequency of crits, just the crit damage.

In this case perhaps the enemy player popped a spell damage pot, used empower or otherwise buffed before the last light attack.

brandonv516

75 points into cp for impenetrable and I wear 2 pieces at most.

I notice the difference in survival on my magicka nb without the crit resistance.

Molag_Crow

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

With 2000 crit resist, somebody's Overload was hitting me for 2.4k until he crit for 10k. My food buff ran out at the time so I was missing 4k-ish Health. This proves to me that Impen is quite brilliant.

I believe impen doesnt reduce the frequency of crits, just the crit damage.

In this case perhaps the enemy player popped a spell damage pot, used empower or otherwise buffed before the last light attack.

Oh yeah well I had a feeling that it would also reduce the freq of crits because of that death recap alone, but previously I held that crits should be much lower because of the percentage rather than the actual value of 2000 resist or something.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

With 2000 crit resist, somebody's Overload was hitting me for 2.4k until he crit for 10k. My food buff ran out at the time so I was missing 4k-ish Health. This proves to me that Impen is quite brilliant.

Yeah you are right its definitely a crit. Have you ever seen a crit modifier of 4?
LOL definitely "shows" how bad impen is

True actually. What's the percentage value of 2,000 crit resist then?

Would that Overlord have hit 12k or? I don't know the % of 2000 resist.

Ampnode

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Most nb's have 175% crit dmg.
Most other classes around 160% or 165%.

That is without shadow.

If my Sa would hit you for 5k normal hit, if you refuse to stack impen then it will hit for 8,750.

3.750 extra dmg is no joke. Thats not including my weave before it, i've crit for like 4k's on that.

My incap has a 18k tooltip. Go ahead, please don't use impen.

My ult's are usually empowered so my 21.6k tooltip will be halfed in pvp, 10.5k.

Take into account armour and cp etc.. and it'll hit for 8k~ non crit.

Without impen it'll hit for 14k and this is where all those 'Incap' is OP thread are coming from, oh it's hitting too hard but i still refuse to use impen because i know better and it's not needed.

With impen of around 2500, 30% reduction~

That 14k becomes 11.6k,

With 3300 cap, 50% reduction, 14k becomes 10k.

But hey i'm sure that extra 500 magicka and 50 regen is worth getting hit so much harder.

I don't understand why this is even in discussion, lol. In PvP you need impenetratable. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Reducing most incoming damage by an extra 2-3K by running full impen + 10% into CP is required. But hey, let them get hit with 2-3K more damage and settle with 500-600 extra magicka and 40-50 more regen, right?

Armitas

If only ZOS knew how important impenetrable was.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Ampnode wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Most nb's have 175% crit dmg.
Most other classes around 160% or 165%.

That is without shadow.

If my Sa would hit you for 5k normal hit, if you refuse to stack impen then it will hit for 8,750.

3.750 extra dmg is no joke. Thats not including my weave before it, i've crit for like 4k's on that.

My incap has a 18k tooltip. Go ahead, please don't use impen.

My ult's are usually empowered so my 21.6k tooltip will be halfed in pvp, 10.5k.

Take into account armour and cp etc.. and it'll hit for 8k~ non crit.

Without impen it'll hit for 14k and this is where all those 'Incap' is OP thread are coming from, oh it's hitting too hard but i still refuse to use impen because i know better and it's not needed.

With impen of around 2500, 30% reduction~

That 14k becomes 11.6k,

With 3300 cap, 50% reduction, 14k becomes 10k.

But hey i'm sure that extra 500 magicka and 50 regen is worth getting hit so much harder.

I don't understand why this is even in discussion, lol. In PvP you need impenetratable. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Reducing most incoming damage by an extra 2-3K by running full impen + 10% into CP is required. But hey, let them get hit with 2-3K more damage and settle with 500-600 extra magicka and 40-50 more regen, right?

No, you don't. I just played for 4 straight hours running the emperor's group. Killed hundreds of people. Took half the map until it got kind of ugly again 30 minutes ago and we lost Emp. I died maybe 10 times total. Probably less that that. If you know what you're doing you don't need it at all.


Edit: Long live Emperor Flatttttttline. It's been a good run.

brandonv516

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Most nb's have 175% crit dmg.
Most other classes around 160% or 165%.

That is without shadow.

If my Sa would hit you for 5k normal hit, if you refuse to stack impen then it will hit for 8,750.

3.750 extra dmg is no joke. Thats not including my weave before it, i've crit for like 4k's on that.

My incap has a 18k tooltip. Go ahead, please don't use impen.

My ult's are usually empowered so my 21.6k tooltip will be halfed in pvp, 10.5k.

Take into account armour and cp etc.. and it'll hit for 8k~ non crit.

Without impen it'll hit for 14k and this is where all those 'Incap' is OP thread are coming from, oh it's hitting too hard but i still refuse to use impen because i know better and it's not needed.

With impen of around 2500, 30% reduction~

That 14k becomes 11.6k,

With 3300 cap, 50% reduction, 14k becomes 10k.

But hey i'm sure that extra 500 magicka and 50 regen is worth getting hit so much harder.

I don't understand why this is even in discussion, lol. In PvP you need impenetratable. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Reducing most incoming damage by an extra 2-3K by running full impen + 10% into CP is required. But hey, let them get hit with 2-3K more damage and settle with 500-600 extra magicka and 40-50 more regen, right?

No, you don't. I just played for 4 straight hours running the emperor's group. Killed hundreds of people. Took half the map until it got kind of ugly again 30 minutes ago and we lost Emp. I died maybe 10 times total. Probably less that that. If you know what you're doing you don't need it at all.


Edit: Long live Emperor Flatttttttline. It's been a good run.

That's a different style of pvp where it isn't as noticeable without it.

neville_bart0s

not sure if OP is serious or just trying to get more kill.... either way, stop using impen, do me a favour I need more APs

Eshelmen

True actually. What's the percentage value of 2,000 crit resist then?

Would that Overlord have hit 12k or? I don't know the % of 2000 resist.

You're looking at around 34% crit reduction with 2k crit resist.

Ampnode

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

No, you don't. I just played for 4 straight hours running the emperor's group. Killed hundreds of people. Took half the map until it got kind of ugly again 30 minutes ago and we lost Emp. I died maybe 10 times total. Probably less that that. If you know what you're doing you don't need it at all.


Edit: Long live Emperor Flatttttttline. It's been a good run.

So you don't small scale. That'd explain it... Never mind, then.

Dakrana_Thrazvoth

Test by yourself by crafting two similar armor, one with impen and another without, and you will see how impenetrable trait is usefull for pvp.
Actually I play with 2 sets for pvp : marksman (1750 crit resist, 750 with armor + 1000 with cp) and skirmiser, sometimes ( 1000 crit resist, 0 with amor, and 1000 with cp), and I have noticed, I'm more squishy with skirmisher than marksman, I die faster. I spent a lot of time in pvp with these sets for notice a real differnce.

Waffennacht

@leepalmer95 how the @$!# do most classes get to even +75% crit yet alone over 100%?

I'll use sorc cause I know sorc... no passives increase crit damage... there is the mundus so +14% (remember impen so no divines)... and... um...

What else is there? I can't think of any armor that increases the damage, or weapons and no class abilities.

So how do most classes get even close to what you said? I'm 100% serious I need to know.

Edit: the way you typed it, was an increase of 175% damage, not a multiple of 1.75. So you mean 75% crit damage right, not 175%? Because with 175% crit damGe (not just damage, but crit damage like you typed) a 6k attack would deal an additional 9k+ so over 15k

FriedEggSandwich

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

You have no clue if you say impen is overrated.

Or we're playing different games. My crit resist is 68 ... not 6800 ... 68. I don't die that much and frequently am one of the most survivable people on the battlefield, mostly due to being a Templar.

Like anyone else if I am completely unaware of an incoming attack I'll probably die, but that's rare. With even 1 second of notice I can pop mist form and mitigate 75% of all damage. I can also Breath of Life back to full health from even the largest hits because the Vampire passive Undeath slows down damage dealt to me. I'm often left with just a few health points after a crit and then I'm at full health in under a second. I also stack magicka instead of spell power and use reduce cost champion points so BoL doesn't cause that much.

On second thought maybe I should have made this thread, here's a way to make crit resistance not matter.

So what you're saying is templars are op?

FriedEggSandwich

raasdal wrote: »

Impen is indeed overrated in the sense that people just go for it without thought, since everybody says that is what you need to do.

I have heard Sorcs wearing impen, not realising you cannot crit shields. My magblade is wearing Infused and divines. Why? Because it really does not matter if you hit me crit or not. Due to playstyle i either kill you in 2 seconds, i get away or i die. The end.

Also, there is Azura Star no cp. In No CP campaign a good crit rating is 25%. Whic means that Impen is worth nothing at all, compared to a CP campaign. People tend to forget that - even the ones actually playing no cp.

Impen is good for many builds, but it is far from the "go to" solution it is puffed up to be.

I've heard of sorcs not wearing impen, not realising they can't keep their shields up 100% of the time.

leepalmer95

Waffennacht wrote: »

@leepalmer95 how the @$!# do most classes get to even +75% crit yet alone over 100%?

I'll use sorc cause I know sorc... no passives increase crit damage... there is the mundus so +14% (remember impen so no divines)... and... um...

What else is there? I can't think of any armor that increases the damage, or weapons and no class abilities.

So how do most classes get even close to what you said? I'm 100% serious I need to know.

Edit: the way you typed it, was an increase of 175% damage, not a multiple of 1.75. So you mean 75% crit damage right, not 175%? Because with 175% crit damGe (not just damage, but crit damage like you typed) a 6k attack would deal an additional 9k+ so over 15k

175% modifier is 1.75 , with the 100% being you base damage.

Probably should of said 175% damage

jrgray93

I can't be bothered to make a PVP set because I go there so rarely. When I do, I'm wearing 5/5 Julianos, 4/5 Magnus, 3/3 Willpower. I have 1 divines, 4 nirnhoned (light pieces), and 2 reinforced (heavy pieces). I went against the norm and used heavier damage resist as a PVE healer. It's very effective in PVE but I've also had a lot of success in PVP with it. Players usually have a hard time killing me but I often think it may help to get some impen pieces. Like I said, I just don't care enough to make the gear.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Ahzek wrote: »

Most decent stam builds i encounter run between 25 and 30k HP, which is more than enough to survive just about any alpha stike damage, but only due to the power of impen.

If you don't mind my asking, how are folks achieving this?

I'm just now gearing my Altmer MagBlade and my Bosmer StamBlade and I'm having real issues with both low health and low damage.

I've been pushing all of my points into either Magicka or Stamina, but using Prismatic Defense glyphs to make up the difference. So far, it's looking mediocre.

I'm not really sure about the values I should be shooting for with Health, Magicka/Stamina Regen, and Spell/Weapon damage.

More specifically, if anyone could tell me a good tooltip number to shoot for with Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack, that would be AMAZING.

Thanks in advance for any advice y'all can offer!

FriedEggSandwich

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

Most decent stam builds i encounter run between 25 and 30k HP, which is more than enough to survive just about any alpha stike damage, but only due to the power of impen.

If you don't mind my asking, how are folks achieving this?

I'm just now gearing my Altmer MagBlade and my Bosmer StamBlade and I'm having real issues with both low health and low damage.

I've been pushing all of my points into either Magicka or Stamina, but using Prismatic Defense glyphs to make up the difference. So far, it's looking mediocre.

I'm not really sure about the values I should be shooting for with Health, Magicka/Stamina Regen, and Spell/Weapon damage.

More specifically, if anyone could tell me a good tooltip number to shoot for with Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack, that would be AMAZING.

Thanks in advance for any advice y'all can offer!

I don't understand stamina enough to fully answer your questions, but high stats are generally achieved through having lots of cp (every red cp you spend slightly increases hp, blue cp increase magicka and green cp increase stamina), also Undaunted Mettle passive, and the right food (probably blue). I would avoid prismatic enchants and go for either primary stat or hp enchants, I could be wrong but I thought prismatic enchants served tanks the best.

Edit: my altmer sorc has 501 cp spent and nothing into health whatsoever, his hp in cyro sits at 20k with purple food. Forgot to mention battle spirit gives you a hefty boost to hp, but I'm guessing you knew that.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I don't understand stamina enough to fully answer your questions, but high stats are generally achieved through having lots of cp (every red cp you spend slightly increases hp, blue cp increase magicka and green cp increase stamina), also Undaunted Mettle passive, and the right food (probably blue). I would avoid prismatic enchants and go for either primary stat or hp enchants, I could be wrong but I thought prismatic enchants served tanks the best.

Edit: my altmer sorc has 501 cp spent and nothing into health whatsoever, his hp in cyro sits at 20k with purple food. Forgot to mention battle spirit gives you a hefty boost to hp, but I'm guessing you knew that.

Thank you for your insights!