Argonian healers and the races as a whole.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I love that a light was shined on racial passives. I get that a MMO has to have a healing race and class it's just the way it is. One class has to be the tank class, one race needs to be a Tank race. Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

It's been said mostly by the same people for two years now that Argonians don't hold up. With the new passives turning a sneak thief, guerrilla tactics masters with 1/12 of the population born to an order of Assassins in to the default healers? Please don't do this I want a buff the our passives but as you're letting players change races it's unlikely you will revisit race passives as people can carry over progress to a better race.

One piece of our lore states that we are good healers everything else points to thick skinned, disease resist and fast hard hitting semi ninjas. But you focus on the healing. You will be nerfing the vast majority of Argonians and for what to meet a quota, to check off a box on a list.

This a plea not just for Argonians but for all the races with weak or broken passives. Fix them or we will have armies of AD, DC and EP with the same races playing the same roles. I'm pretty sure EP has more Khajiits then AD. To me letting people change races it a clear statement that you have just given up completely on race balance. Wish I was wrong but I'm sure we all had the same though.

Beardimus

I thought / felt Argonians were buffed. They are the last race I would have picked previously, but I've rolled one now with the suggested changes as a Sorc Healer

Dracane

It's indeed weird, that Argonians turned into a healing race.

Prior to ESO, I considered Argonians one of the races that are more gifted with magic. Yet when the game launched, Argonians weren't magical at all passive wise. Argonians are good at regeneration themselves.

It makes no sense that Argonians have a passive that increases their healing done to others. Argonians should increase the healing that is done strictly to themselves. That's how it is lore wise and that's actually more balanced.
But while we are at it, Bretons are the most talented with summoning and Altmer actually the most talented with Illusion magic. Yet nothing of that is in their passive tree in ESO so maybe we should just forget about the other TES games and lore.

ToRelax

As we are at regenerating themselves, healing done helps at that, too. But why not increase their healing done to others as well, since their exp passive draws new players who want to play a healer to playing argonian?
Sure it's a nerf to some. But this is actually a change that has been suggested many times, and for PvP and healers it should be a buff, for damage dealers quite irrelevant and a nerf to tanks.

Shadesofkin

Pre current games, the Argonians were gifted with magicka, it was Morrowind forward that started rewriting them. I tend to look at ESO as something that has more in common with Daggerfall and Arena racials than with Morrowind and beyond.

lookstwice

Other than maybe a slight nerf for tanking, I'm kinda bummed that they got such a nice buff...at least for healing.

Because I just got into playing them and was debating on changing my breton sorc to an argonian. Now it might be the FOTM???

edit, i should slight or big nerf to tanking. I have no idea, i'll let others decide that.

Oompuh

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

You're right that you dont need a healer or tank IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT, but saying that Healers and Tanks arent needed in the game is very wrong. 12 Player content forces 2 healers and, for vmol, 2 tanks. Most of trial dedicated healers are rerolling Argonian this upcoming patch for massive heals.

Dracane

ToRelax wrote: »

As we are at regenerating themselves, healing done helps at that, too. But why not increase their healing done to others as well, since their exp passive draws new players who want to play a healer to playing argonian?
Sure it's a nerf to some. But this is actually a change that has been suggested many times, and for PvP and healers it should be a buff, for damage dealers quite irrelevant and a nerf to tanks.

So healers need buffs ? They don't, healing is too strong in pvp already.

Kronuxx

I don't think the change healing received to healing done is an issue as the heals you do to yourself are still counted in healing done. The issue is that this is essentially the only major change that was done for Argonians separate of 3% magicka which is rather small. Again, why pigeon-hole an entire race into specific class roles. Argonians are just as diverse as the others and they were known for their guerrilla warfare tactics and as being proficient assassins. Both of these lifestyle choices suggest a competence towards agility and dexterity and so the translation to ESO that would closely mimic such attributes would be stamina; therefore as I proposed on another thread, to help alleviate the issue of pigeon-holing a race and to help buff Argonians to at least be on a somewhat similar platform as the other races, they should also have an increase in their stamina % stat to 6%. This would be akin to how Dark Elves (dunmer) have both increase in magicka and stamina, but it wouldn't be as high of course (mainly to avoid people griping and complaining, although dunmer have a total of 9% increase magicka and 6% increase stamina). This caliber of increase is not ground-breaking, as this increase would allow for build diversity and it's essentially in line with the other % stat pool increases that other classes have whether that was in health/magicka/stamina.

Example: Change the Resourceful passive to "Guerrilla Tactics" or keep it as Resourceful:

Increase your Max Magicka by 1/2/3% and Stamina by 2/4/6% and continues to restore 4/8/12% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina whenever you drink a potion (by the way this potion restoration is kind of useless and expensive considering that potion cooldown is 45s)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Oompuh wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

You're right that you dont need a healer or tank IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT, but saying that Healers and Tanks arent needed in the game is very wrong. 12 Player content forces 2 healers and, for vmol, 2 tanks. Most of trial dedicated healers are rerolling Argonian this upcoming patch for massive heals.

For a 12 men you for sure need 2 healers and 2 tanks but most of the PvE content can and has been done with straight DPS.

Junkogen

Oompuh wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

You're right that you dont need a healer or tank IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT, but saying that Healers and Tanks arent needed in the game is very wrong. 12 Player content forces 2 healers and, for vmol, 2 tanks. Most of trial dedicated healers are rerolling Argonian this upcoming patch for massive heals.

So let's balance an entire race around a couple trials? As sad as that sounds, that's probably exactly what ZOS is thinking.

At least there's race change. I'm tired of this crap with Argonians. It's been beyond ridiculous to even get to this point.

Darkonflare15

Junkogen wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

You're right that you dont need a healer or tank IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT, but saying that Healers and Tanks arent needed in the game is very wrong. 12 Player content forces 2 healers and, for vmol, 2 tanks. Most of trial dedicated healers are rerolling Argonian this upcoming patch for massive heals.

So let's balance an entire race around a couple trials? As sad as that sounds, that's probably exactly what ZOS is thinking.

At least there's race change. I'm tired of this crap with Argonians. It's been beyond ridiculous to even get to this point.

More like giving them something "useful" so people can stop complaining about it. I have been fine with the potion passive for so long but people kept complaining over and over again. Then they get some increases in their passives again with more health but people complain some more. Now they get magicka increase and can now heal their self and others better, instead of just themselves. Guess what people are still complaining. People are like they are pigeon holding Argonians to be tanks a couple patches ago and now they are saying they are pigeon holding Argonians to be healers. Even though their passives helps all kinds of play styles not just healers or tanks.

Junkogen

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

You're right that you dont need a healer or tank IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT, but saying that Healers and Tanks arent needed in the game is very wrong. 12 Player content forces 2 healers and, for vmol, 2 tanks. Most of trial dedicated healers are rerolling Argonian this upcoming patch for massive heals.

So let's balance an entire race around a couple trials? As sad as that sounds, that's probably exactly what ZOS is thinking.

At least there's race change. I'm tired of this crap with Argonians. It's been beyond ridiculous to even get to this point.

More like giving them something "useful" so people can stop complaining about it. I have been fine with the potion passive for so long but people kept complaining over and over again. Then they get some increases in their passives again with more health but people complain some more. Now they get magicka increase and can now heal their self and others better, instead of just themselves. Guess what people are still complaining. People are like they are pigeon holding Argonians to be tanks a couple patches ago and now they are saying they are pigeon holding Argonians to be healers. Even though their passives helps all kinds of play styles not just healers or tanks.

It's because they're still bad, just in a different way. Why do they need to be pidgeonholed? Redguards and Altmer are doing great not pidgeonholed. They keep trying to reinvent the wheel. Players don't want passive that are unique at the expense of being too niche and restricted.

Kronuxx

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

You're right that you dont need a healer or tank IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT, but saying that Healers and Tanks arent needed in the game is very wrong. 12 Player content forces 2 healers and, for vmol, 2 tanks. Most of trial dedicated healers are rerolling Argonian this upcoming patch for massive heals.

So let's balance an entire race around a couple trials? As sad as that sounds, that's probably exactly what ZOS is thinking.

At least there's race change. I'm tired of this crap with Argonians. It's been beyond ridiculous to even get to this point.

More like giving them something "useful" so people can stop complaining about it. I have been fine with the potion passive for so long but people kept complaining over and over again. Then they get some increases in their passives again with more health but people complain some more. Now they get magicka increase and can now heal their self and others better, instead of just themselves. Guess what people are still complaining. People are like they are pigeon holding Argonians to be tanks a couple patches ago and now they are saying they are pigeon holding Argonians to be healers. Even though their passives helps all kinds of play styles not just healers or tanks.

What you don't realize is that your comparing individual additions/values to themselves as progression. As you just stated in your comment, ZOS adds A, people complain about A, ZOS adds B, people complain about B. The issue is to compare the change to the gold standard, as it should be. Meaning this: Let's just say, that the best racial in the game happened to be the Dunmer Passive of 50% damage reduction from lava. Well comparing to that standard, sure, the potion restoration isn't that bad, relatively speaking. In fact you could argue it's probably one of the best passives in the game (that will be a first when one can say argonians have the best passives in the game). But when the best passives offer increases such as 12% increase in max Health, or 10% increase max stamina, or 8% increase critical chance, or 9% increased max magicka, or restore 3% of your max stamina with every melee attack with 3 sec cooldown, or 10% max magicka with 9% magicka recovery with 4% increase in fire/frost/shock damage, etc., etc., etc. As you can see, when comparing against a high standard, there is a legitimate reason as why people would complain.

What I don't understand is why ZOS appears to be so hesistant and taking such small baby steps to improve upon the racials for argonians. They really should go back to the drawing and really evaluate each and every one of these racials, and decide which ones need to be brought up to be in line with some of the more competitive ones both in reference to PVE or PVP. I don't believe in nerfing others, rather in giving love to those that need it.

Silver_Strider

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

You're right that you dont need a healer or tank IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT, but saying that Healers and Tanks arent needed in the game is very wrong. 12 Player content forces 2 healers and, for vmol, 2 tanks. Most of trial dedicated healers are rerolling Argonian this upcoming patch for massive heals.

So let's balance an entire race around a couple trials? As sad as that sounds, that's probably exactly what ZOS is thinking.

At least there's race change. I'm tired of this crap with Argonians. It's been beyond ridiculous to even get to this point.

More like giving them something "useful" so people can stop complaining about it. I have been fine with the potion passive for so long but people kept complaining over and over again. Then they get some increases in their passives again with more health but people complain some more. Now they get magicka increase and can now heal their self and others better, instead of just themselves. Guess what people are still complaining. People are like they are pigeon holding Argonians to be tanks a couple patches ago and now they are saying they are pigeon holding Argonians to be healers. Even though their passives helps all kinds of play styles not just healers or tanks.

There is no pleasing people

Up til now, I counted myself among the voices that requested a buff to Argonians but these recent changes have quieted my voice as I personally like the changes but I can also understand those that are displeased as Argonian Lore is constantly ignored. Everything, both Lore and in game description of Argonians, describe them as Skirmishers/Assassin's yet their passives show none of that lore and people will continue to be upset until these things get rectified, at least for them.

The only way to satisfy the larger majority of people would be to make Argonians a true Hybrid Race with matching passives.

Quick To Mend: 2/4/6% Max magic, increase Healing Done by 2/4/6%
Argonian Resist: Poison/Disease Resist, 2/4/6% Max Health
Servant of Sithis: 2/4/6% Max Stamina, Increase Poison/Disease Damage

We become a Jack of All Trades race, without being OP in any 1 area, except maybe healing done but that's already too easy to excel at anyways. People will still complain for these suggestion because

• We lost 3% max health. They will completely ignore the fact we would get 6% magic and stamina and complain about our loss of health, which Argonian aren't even known for in the 1st place They'll complain their tank builds are ruined, which isn't true because we were at 6% health for awhile and I was tanking just fine than too. The extra stats will help FAR more than the 3% health did (Unless you where a Blazing Shield Templar but whatever)
• We have too much stat increase. Our stats would be higher than most other races by default, not that it would mean much outside hybrid builds as we wouldn't be the best DPS in any form, be it stamina or magic. The only area we'd fully excel at would be healing but that's an easy enough job as is with any of the magic races and their higher magic pools would result in not only these racing having better DPS but their support skills (Shards, Drain, Siphon, Repentance) would all still be superior to ours.
• We lost our potion passive, which means all our sustain is gone. I'm so so. It was nice but sacrifices had to be made at some attempt to balance everything for a hybrid race. We'd gain a lot more than we'd lose from this passive being removed.

Even with a mildly balance approach, people will still complain.
You can't please everyone.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

You're right that you dont need a healer or tank IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT, but saying that Healers and Tanks arent needed in the game is very wrong. 12 Player content forces 2 healers and, for vmol, 2 tanks. Most of trial dedicated healers are rerolling Argonian this upcoming patch for massive heals.

So let's balance an entire race around a couple trials? As sad as that sounds, that's probably exactly what ZOS is thinking.

At least there's race change. I'm tired of this crap with Argonians. It's been beyond ridiculous to even get to this point.

More like giving them something "useful" so people can stop complaining about it. I have been fine with the potion passive for so long but people kept complaining over and over again. Then they get some increases in their passives again with more health but people complain some more. Now they get magicka increase and can now heal their self and others better, instead of just themselves. Guess what people are still complaining. People are like they are pigeon holding Argonians to be tanks a couple patches ago and now they are saying they are pigeon holding Argonians to be healers. Even though their passives helps all kinds of play styles not just healers or tanks.

There is no pleasing people

Up til now, I counted myself among the voices that requested a buff to Argonians but these recent changes have quieted my voice as I personally like the changes but I can also understand those that are displeased as Argonian Lore is constantly ignored. Everything, both Lore and in game description of Argonians, describe them as Skirmishers/Assassin's yet their passives show none of that lore and people will continue to be upset until these things get rectified, at least for them.

The only way to satisfy the larger majority of people would be to make Argonians a true Hybrid Race with matching passives.

Quick To Mend: 2/4/6% Max magic, increase Healing Done by 2/4/6%
Argonian Resist: Poison/Disease Resist, 2/4/6% Max Health
Servant of Sithis: 2/4/6% Max Stamina, Increase Poison/Disease Damage

We become a Jack of All Trades race, without being OP in any 1 area, except maybe healing done but that's already too easy to excel at anyways. People will still complain for these suggestion because

• We lost 3% max health. They will completely ignore the fact we would get 6% magic and stamina and complain about our loss of health, which Argonian aren't even known for in the 1st place They'll complain their tank builds are ruined, which isn't true because we were at 6% health for awhile and I was tanking just fine than too. The extra stats will help FAR more than the 3% health did (Unless you where a Blazing Shield Templar but whatever)
• We have too much stat increase. Our stats would be higher than most other races by default, not that it would mean much outside hybrid builds as we wouldn't be the best DPS in any form, be it stamina or magic. The only area we'd fully excel at would be healing but that's an easy enough job as is with any of the magic races and their higher magic pools would result in not only these racing having better DPS but their support skills (Shards, Drain, Siphon, Repentance) would all still be superior to ours.
• We lost our potion passive, which means all our sustain is gone. I'm so so. It was nice but sacrifices had to be made at some attempt to balance everything for a hybrid race. We'd gain a lot more than we'd lose from this passive being removed.

Even with a mildly balance approach, people will still complain.
You can't please everyone.

It's not really fair to it complaining when the changes made was not even close to what was asked for it like if some restaurants described a sandwich as a double bacon cheeseburger and the first they bring out was turkey, then a ham sandwich and then a fish sandwich and they act shocked when you don't like it.

Your idea for passives would truly fit the lore and even if it doesn't fit with all Argonian build we would be happy. Cause it's not a let counter the DPS races with another Tank race or let's make the mandatory healer race. It would be a hey this is what Argonians do this is your lore that would be fair. This is nothing for Argonians they just want to lock in a healing race cause MMO standards and we all know it.

Najarati

I've played an Argonian healer (Templar) since the open beta so naturally I was pleased to see changes benefiting our healing capabilities. Even so, perhaps ZOS can alter Quick to Mend so it's 2/4/6% Healing Done and 2/4/6% Healing Received as to not affect tank builds yet still benefit healing builds.

I also think Argonian poison/disease resistance should be doubled its current value so it has real impact or, if not that, keep the current value and perhaps give Argonians 25/50% resistance to player-made poisons.

For those wanting that "Guerrilla Warfare" flavor, what if instead of the potion passive Argonians dropped into stealth 25/50% faster?

On a side note, I also like Silver_Strider's ideas even though Servant of Sithis doesn't really jive with my healer since she isn't a follower of Sithis.

Silver_Strider

Najarati wrote: »

I've played an Argonian healer (Templar) since the open beta so naturally I was pleased to see changes benefiting our healing capabilities. Even so, perhaps ZOS can alter Quick to Mend so it's 2/4/6% Healing Done and 2/4/6% Healing Received as to not affect tank builds yet still benefit healing builds.

I also think Argonian poison/disease resistance should be doubled its current value so it has real impact or, if not that, keep the current value and perhaps give Argonians 25/50% resistance to player-made poisons.

For those wanting that "Guerrilla Warfare" flavor, what if instead of the potion passive Argonians dropped into stealth 25/50% faster?

On a side note, I also like Silver_Strider's ideas even though Servant of Sithis doesn't really jive with my healer since she isn't a follower of Sithis.

I just named it whatever. They could name it Child of the Hist and keep the effect.

Kronuxx

Silver_Strider wrote: »

There is no pleasing people

Up til now, I counted myself among the voices that requested a buff to Argonians but these recent changes have quieted my voice as I personally like the changes but I can also understand those that are displeased as Argonian Lore is constantly ignored. Everything, both Lore and in game description of Argonians, describe them as Skirmishers/Assassin's yet their passives show none of that lore and people will continue to be upset until these things get rectified, at least for them.

The only way to satisfy the larger majority of people would be to make Argonians a true Hybrid Race with matching passives.

Quick To Mend: 2/4/6% Max magic, increase Healing Done by 2/4/6%
Argonian Resist: Poison/Disease Resist, 2/4/6% Max Health
Servant of Sithis: 2/4/6% Max Stamina, Increase Poison/Disease Damage

We become a Jack of All Trades race, without being OP in any 1 area, except maybe healing done but that's already too easy to excel at anyways. People will still complain for these suggestion because

• We lost 3% max health. They will completely ignore the fact we would get 6% magic and stamina and complain about our loss of health, which Argonian aren't even known for in the 1st place They'll complain their tank builds are ruined, which isn't true because we were at 6% health for awhile and I was tanking just fine than too. The extra stats will help FAR more than the 3% health did (Unless you where a Blazing Shield Templar but whatever)
• We have too much stat increase. Our stats would be higher than most other races by default, not that it would mean much outside hybrid builds as we wouldn't be the best DPS in any form, be it stamina or magic. The only area we'd fully excel at would be healing but that's an easy enough job as is with any of the magic races and their higher magic pools would result in not only these racing having better DPS but their support skills (Shards, Drain, Siphon, Repentance) would all still be superior to ours.
• We lost our potion passive, which means all our sustain is gone. I'm so so. It was nice but sacrifices had to be made at some attempt to balance everything for a hybrid race. We'd gain a lot more than we'd lose from this passive being removed.

Even with a mildly balance approach, people will still complain.
You can't please everyone.

@Silver_Strider I actually quite like the suggestions you posted in the above quote. Very fitting for argonians and decent enough to make them comparable to other races without being over-kill in any one area (unlike some races * cough Altmer, Dunmer, Redguard, Khajiit *cough). @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Listen to this man!

Jar_Ek

I like @Silver_Strider ideas but would completely dump the resistance and health passive and replace it with 12% regeneration to stamina, health and magicka.

susmitds

Well, AD certainly has at least thrice the number of Khajiits of EP.

ToRelax

Dracane wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

As we are at regenerating themselves, healing done helps at that, too. But why not increase their healing done to others as well, since their exp passive draws new players who want to play a healer to playing argonian?
Sure it's a nerf to some. But this is actually a change that has been suggested many times, and for PvP and healers it should be a buff, for damage dealers quite irrelevant and a nerf to tanks.

So healers need buffs ? They don't, healing is too strong in pvp already.

Not healers in general got a buff but Argonian ones. They aren't OP now or anything, just competitive with the magicka races.

Paraflex

This is a great change to the race especially healing templars. I will be turning my high elf into an argonian because I'm a healing templar and the changes are great plus you get the potion effect which is amazing.

Paraflex

Lore doesn't matter to me even though others may care about it sorry hahaha

Birdovic

I think its a good change.
I mean, lorewise its right to make them good healers. There is nobody else who got this kind of Healing Bonus. Maybe Argonian Healers are a thing now and "BiS"?

Or how does an Argonian Templar with the new Passives compare to lets say, Altmer/Breton Templars keeping higher Magicka/Cost reduction in mind?

@Asayre Did you do some math on that already and have some insight on this?

Pallio

My main is a Templar Altmer healer.. Breton was considered better in the beginning for a healer, but, I like to dps a little too... Considering changing to Argonian, but, although 9% more healing sounds good, I really like my regen and I feel like I over heal now as it is....

Junkogen

Pallio wrote: »

My main is a Templar Altmer healer.. Breton was considered better in the beginning for a healer, but, I like to dps a little too... Considering changing to Argonian, but, although 9% more healing sounds good, I really like my regen and I feel like I over heal now as it is....

This is what people just don't seem to get. There is a finite amount of health to restore above which is inefficient. Damage on the other hand can never be too high. All the people singing ZOS praises will be singing a different tune when they realize this.

Argonians got nerfed with the switch to healing given and a minor buff with the 3% magicka. ZOS constantly overvalues Argonian passives. If they were a stock, investors would lose big. I should know. I've been an "investor" in Argonian stock since launch and feel like I've just been handicapped this whole time.

ToRelax

Junkogen wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

My main is a Templar Altmer healer.. Breton was considered better in the beginning for a healer, but, I like to dps a little too... Considering changing to Argonian, but, although 9% more healing sounds good, I really like my regen and I feel like I over heal now as it is....

This is what people just don't seem to get. There is a finite amount of health to restore above which is inefficient. Damage on the other hand can never be too high. All the people singing ZOS praises will be singing a different tune when they realize this.

Argonians got nerfed with the switch to healing given and a minor buff with the 3% magicka. ZOS constantly overvalues Argonian passives. If they were a stock, investors would lose big. I should know. I've been an "investor" in Argonian stock since launch and feel like I've just been handicapped this whole time.

The same argument goes both ways. When your healer is overhealing anyway, what do you need the healing received for?
That goes for PvE. In PvP, healing done > healing received almost always.

SanTii.92

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yet ESO doesn't follow most MMO rules you don't even need a Tank for most raids and I have even been in groups that had four DPS with self heals. If the content is not going to force the need for a Tank and Healer why are you trying to force a race to fit that roll.

You're right that you dont need a healer or tank IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT, but saying that Healers and Tanks arent needed in the game is very wrong. 12 Player content forces 2 healers and, for vmol, 2 tanks. Most of trial dedicated healers are rerolling Argonian this upcoming patch for massive heals.

For a 12 men you for sure need 2 healers and 2 tanks but most of the PvE content can and has been done with straight DPS.

So? Fact that it's possible to complete it with 4 dps doesn't mean it's easier, recomendable or even more fun for the matter.

susmitds

ToRelax wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

My main is a Templar Altmer healer.. Breton was considered better in the beginning for a healer, but, I like to dps a little too... Considering changing to Argonian, but, although 9% more healing sounds good, I really like my regen and I feel like I over heal now as it is....

This is what people just don't seem to get. There is a finite amount of health to restore above which is inefficient. Damage on the other hand can never be too high. All the people singing ZOS praises will be singing a different tune when they realize this.

Argonians got nerfed with the switch to healing given and a minor buff with the 3% magicka. ZOS constantly overvalues Argonian passives. If they were a stock, investors would lose big. I should know. I've been an "investor" in Argonian stock since launch and feel like I've just been handicapped this whole time.

The same argument goes both ways. When your healer is overhealing anyway, what do you need the healing received for?
That goes for PvE. In PvP, healing done > healing received almost always.

You could not be more wrong. For PvP, this is nerf, though pretty small. Let me show you why.

Battle Spirit decreases Healing Received by 50%. Before Racial Change, Argonians got Healing Received 8% increase. These two were actually additive (rather than multiplicative). So basically overall healing recieved was (100-50+8)% or 58%.

Now it is Healing Done which gets an increase of 8%.

Self-Healing = Heal Tooltip * Healing Done * Healing Received

Argonian PvP Self Heal before change = Tooltip*1.00*0.58 = 58% of normal tooltip
Argonian PvP Self Heal after change = Tooltip*1.08*0.50 = 54% of normal tooltip

So basically self-heals (and other's heals on you) will be significantly weaker but your own heals on other players would be significantly stronger. This is quite a fair trade in my opinion though.

As for PvE, the change from Healing Done to Healing Received is a buff for healers and nerf for tanks.

But at the end, I would say the changes are overall better for Argonians.

9% extra health, 3% extra magicka, 8% extra healing done and the potion passive is pretty balanced, both as healers and tanks and also as tankier DPSes. They may not be as good as BiS Magicka DPS races offensively but they certainly have their place now.

Shadesofkin

To be fair, overhealing usually means they're trying to proc SPC for me, so....I say let them overheal.