Dark Exchange/ Dark Deal

NordSwordnBoard

Sorcerers, what is the return on your investment in the Dark Exchange? Has Kafka meta-morphed it into a Dark Deal on you? Wroebel is your broker. The fiscal year is over... Let the trial begin

I wanted Dark Deal to be awesome in PvP, and it can be awesome - but it is not awesome right now. I don't feel awesome when I pull it off - I feel lucky. Awesome would imply some sort of empowerment or greatness. Most people are simply full of awe seeing me attempt to use a 1second channeled heal in battle. I get interrupted, or I get hit 2-3 times while I'm casting it to heal previous damage. I use shields & defensive rune all day to help me make it work. One method I use that works OK is combining the def. rune with rolling away or around terrain, which can usually buy me enough time to pull off two casts. The upside is in addition to health, I get back my stamina to roll, help break cc, and such. The downside is what steps I need to take in order to even pull this off. 1vX its not so easy.

All I'm trying to do is use the sorcerer's dedicated healing skill. The cast time is killing me. Take away that cast time and we may have ourselves a winner. It has such potential...

I think all sorcerers have adapted in their own way since DB, so this is about your opinions on the skill itself. Weigh in on it if you please - maybe we can provide each other some insight or help. Maybe someone with the authority to change things will notice our discussion and also learn from it.

Sandman929

Insta-cast, actually insta-apply, would be welcome from a magicka or stamina sorc. The delay from casting animation to the resource gain makes the skill almost useless in a hectic fight IMO. It's a shame, because it's sort of a sorc's Breath of Life...except it always hits the caster and only the caster.

juhasman

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Sorcerers, what is the return on your investment in the Dark Exchange? Has Kafka meta-morphed it into a Dark Deal on you? Wroebel is your broker. The fiscal year is over... Let the trial begin

I wanted Dark Deal to be awesome in PvP, and it can be awesome - but it is not awesome right now. I don't feel awesome when I pull it off - I feel lucky. Awesome would imply some sort of empowerment or greatness. Most people are simply full of awe seeing me attempt to use a 1second channeled heal in battle. I get interrupted, or I get hit 2-3 times while I'm casting it to heal previous damage. I use shields & defensive rune all day to help me make it work. One method I use that works OK is combining the def. rune with rolling away or around terrain, which can usually buy me enough time to pull off two casts. The upside is in addition to health, I get back my stamina to roll, help break cc, and such. The downside is what steps I need to take in order to even pull this off. 1vX its not so easy.

All I'm trying to do is use the sorcerer's dedicated healing skill. The cast time is killing me. Take away that cast time and we may have ourselves a winner. It has such potential...

I think all sorcerers have adapted in their own way since DB, so this is about your opinions on the skill itself. Weigh in on it if you please - maybe we can provide each other some insight or help. Maybe someone with the authority to change things will notice our discussion and also learn from it.

Well trying to use 1 sec channel time skill as main heal is a mistake. You need to consider it returns Hp and stamina so if it would be instant cast there could be some OP builds like neverending blocking sorc with selfhealing. Persnally i am using this morph on stam sorc and it works great. Magicka which i dont really need on him find great use.On magicka sorc i dont really need it. As person who plays both type of sorc i think the change of this skill is good. It's not OP and it's not underpowered.

Oxwood

No cast time will defiantly make the skill useful, a feature that everyone has been asking for forever.

Waffennacht

I'm going back and reading the rest in a moment.

Are you just finishing the works of Kaufka? I read like three references in that opening statement. (Metamorphosis - one I haven't read and the Trial - I have read and very disappointed)

Edit: it's solid atm, not too bad, not too good. It's, however, definitely not "awesome" though. Insta cast or 30% more return would make it "awesome"

Even 1v1 (and I hate how it can't be animation cancelled... some times I get stuck in the animation which is really bad for PvP (getting stuck that is)) the channel can get you killed.

An "awesome" effect would be that not only are you healed, but you're healed for more than the damage the took during the channel.

I'm using it on my hybrid, use Ward, use exchange, use ward again = essentially 16k worth of health. Combine with heavy armor passive to return resources when hit.

Immovable potions can help make sure you get it through too.

It's the only active heal sorcs have access to

NordSwordnBoard

@juhasman when you say you dont need it on your mag sorc do you mean you slot it but barely use it? Do you use surge or resto with that as the backup?

NordSwordnBoard

@Waffennacht regarding Kafka, it was innovative for its time. These days I think few minds are blown by it. Historical perspective is key. Read his stuff a while ago. Thanks for getting the reference, it will encourage me to make another in a year or so, as Kafka is a pretty rare ref to fit in.

Also Ive been using the immovable it helps. Getting back health you lost during the channel is a great idea. They are close to making this skill awesome... Just one little change can do it.

Araviel2

i think the skill is fantastic now, but i still don't like to rely on it as my main heal and i still use resto most of the time unless i am zerg surfing or sneaking around in IC that has plenty of corners to heal behind.

my main use for it is for the stamina though, it has given mobility back to my sorc and i am loving it.
thanks to DD i can now use skills like rapid and be a speed bullet on the battlefield.

removing the cast time while still allowing it to give back stamina i think would be to OP.
that would make us into into cc immune perma roll dodgers.

tinythinker

If it was a HoT with a lot of small ticks over several seconds with zero cast time it could still be effective without becoming like BoL on steroids. But I think the combat team likes the idea of having players figure out how to use the skill as a channel.

Brrrofski

I use it for the stamina return on my stam Sorc. Which is pretty awesome. Just need to onto when you can and can't use it.

Don't care about the heal. Have vigor and rally/surge.

leepalmer95

No cast time would make this skill OP.

It returns like 5k-6k stamina for a sorc, they cast it 3 times thats 15k stamina... thats insane and much higher than every other class is able too. A dark deal returns more resources than a dk ult does.

mtwiggz

WTB instant cast Dark Deal.

mtwiggz

leepalmer95 wrote: »

No cast time would make this skill OP.

It returns like 5k-6k stamina for a sorc, they cast it 3 times thats 15k stamina... thats insane and much higher than every other class is able too. A dark deal returns more resources than a dk ult does.

Yes but a DK ult deals damage, Dark Deal does not. Logic is logical.

leepalmer95

mtwiggz wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

No cast time would make this skill OP.

It returns like 5k-6k stamina for a sorc, they cast it 3 times thats 15k stamina... thats insane and much higher than every other class is able too. A dark deal returns more resources than a dk ult does.

Yes but a DK ult deals damage, Dark Deal does not. Logic is logical.

But it's a frigging ultimate... your skill is better than a class defining passive which can only be used when they actually have an ult.

It's good enough as it is, shouldn't be too hard to make sure your not going to get interrupted, cc them first maybe?

Jar_Ek

We have figured it out... don't use it on the battlefield.

Part of the problem is that any way you cut it, it is hard to get off successfully, especially without taking even more damage.

Magicka builds could, theoretically, ward and then cast dark exchange/dea, or cc and then cast... or both. This is less viable for stamina builds (with only a very poor class ward or an expensive undaunted one) although cc is an option. And of course running and hiding is an option as well (streak is easier for magicka tho).

But warding doesn't stop your 1s channel (which takes closer to 2s to do anything) from being interrupted and cc can last for almost 0s with a quick player.... which leaves running and hiding. Both of which are fraught with risk.

Not to mention that in pve vs a boss the cc option isn't a viable one.

Ultimately the skill just doesn't work well as a heal for any situation where you may actually need it. It may be okay for resource regeneration, but then so would a heavy attack.

Making it uninterruptible would help, or a HoT with instant cast, or a vastly decreased cast time, or even a (can't believe I am suggesting this) a channel or toggle again.

Sandman929

tinythinker wrote: »

If it was a HoT with a lot of small ticks over several seconds with zero cast time it could still be effective without becoming like BoL on steroids. But I think the combat team likes the idea of having players figure out how to use the skill as a channel.

I'd get behind a HoT, along with the resource return over time.

Birdovic

This ability really needs to be changed to
A ) A HoT which returns both Ressources over Time (would work well in combination with shielding)
B ) become instant cast(no channel time AND no delay afterwards) and keeping the current Ressources returned


Personally, I'd prefer B ) .

It should feel like a self-centered Breath of Life, which doesnt return as much Health but in exchange gives Stamina/Magicka back aswell.
- It would be unique to a sorcerer
- it would finally be reliable
AND: It would feel awesome

mtwiggz

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mtwiggz wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

No cast time would make this skill OP.

It returns like 5k-6k stamina for a sorc, they cast it 3 times thats 15k stamina... thats insane and much higher than every other class is able too. A dark deal returns more resources than a dk ult does.

Yes but a DK ult deals damage, Dark Deal does not. Logic is logical.

But it's a frigging ultimate... your skill is better than a class defining passive which can only be used when they actually have an ult.

It's good enough as it is, shouldn't be too hard to make sure your not going to get interrupted, cc them first maybe?

Yes it is a "frigging" ultimate. Thank you for helping prove my point. It does damage and returns resources. Makes sense.

Dark Deal only returns resources, which is fine. The 1s cast time is silly. I'm not asking for Dark Deal to return resources, deal damage, cure world hunger and make Victoria secret models appear out of thin air.

Araviel2

im not a fan of the HoT idea, feels like just another one. we got surge and entropy already.
and instant cast would be op like i said earlier.
the only thing this skill needs is the ability to crit and it would be perfect imho

on a side note i think they should give other classes more channeled skills to even it out a bit.
ESO just feels cheesy now whit all this insta spam,

DocFrost72

I gotta say, I feel like if they made it an instant cast we'd see them either cut down the resources returned or overall find some way to nerf it. My magic sorc can permablock with it, and apply a 16k ward.

And he is in cp150 tank gear.

Birdovic

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I gotta say, I feel like if they made it an instant cast we'd see them either cut down the resources returned or overall find some way to nerf it. My magic sorc can permablock with it, and apply a 16k ward.

And he is in cp150 tank gear.

I think people talk about PvP mainly, there you cant do that. Not even permablock + cast (channel).

NordSwordnBoard

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It's good enough as it is, shouldn't be too hard to make sure your not going to get interrupted, cc them first maybe?

Its not too hard to cc 1v1 or even 1v2... Versus more than two or two guys that have it together and are coordinated I cant waste too much time and resource to cc them (or failing to) just so I can heal. Sure, if some dummy has no stamina and squats in a rune prison, good for me. That's just not likely to happen.

I get that I cant just spam this skill while someone damages me. Against good players who don't let up on you, making the cast time even half as much or reduced would allow for better chances of pulling it off more often in the middle of combat. (Which is how this skill was advertised anyway.)

Most PvP battles are battles of seconds, and time is even more crucial in longer drawn out fights. I healed myself much faster and more efficiently with a resto staff. On the other hand, it felt like a crutch, and my sorcerer outgrew it. I don't use surge, so DD is unfortunately my only option. (Heal from Degeneration I definitely appreciate the boost it got from DB - it's why I use it.

If I cc, then dark deal, the target has usually broken cc and is coming after me sometime between the middle of the heal animation and me casting a shield. Sometimes they do this and heal themselves in the time it takes me to heal. 0.5 Second casting time or less might get me healed in time and back in the fight on time as well.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

We have figured it out... don't use it on the battlefield.

Part of the problem is that any way you cut it, it is hard to get off successfully, especially without taking even more damage.

Magicka builds could, theoretically, ward and then cast dark exchange/dea, or cc and then cast... or both. This is less viable for stamina builds (with only a very poor class ward or an expensive undaunted one) although cc is an option. And of course running and hiding is an option as well (streak is easier for magicka tho).

*But warding doesn't stop your 1s channel (which takes closer to 2s to do anything) from being interrupted and cc can last for almost 0s with a quick player.... which leaves running and hiding. Both of which are fraught with risk.

Not to mention that in pve vs a boss the cc option isn't a viable one.
.

In PvE, using boundless storm instead of rune prison allows me to kite most bosses or create enough distance to use dark deal & survive. I can even boundless + sprint to get out of the fight, then replenish the spent stamina with dark deal. That's PvE though...

Anybody else using some different combo of cc or other effects in order to ensure you get Dark E/D to work?

So, in a nutshell: 0s - 0.5s cast time is the best suggested improvement? Reduce the risk, do not adjust the reward. As sensible as a HOT alternative is, it is kind of "more of the same". I seriously doubt an increase of resources gained is on the table for this skill; if anything is at all for that matter. I like the skill and its improvement post DB; I want it to be a equal to or at least comparable to healing skills from the other classes or the Resto tree.

*Sorcerers shouldn't have to hide in dark corners just to accomplish dark deals!

leepalmer95

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It's good enough as it is, shouldn't be too hard to make sure your not going to get interrupted, cc them first maybe?

Its not too hard to cc 1v1 or even 1v2... Versus more than two or two guys that have it together and are coordinated I cant waste too much time and resource to cc them (or failing to) just so I can heal. Sure, if some dummy has no stamina and squats in a rune prison, good for me. That's just not likely to happen.

I get that I cant just spam this skill while someone damages me. Against good players who don't let up on you, making the cast time even half as much or reduced would allow for better chances of pulling it off more often in the middle of combat. (Which is how this skill was advertised anyway.)

Most PvP battles are battles of seconds, and time is even more crucial in longer drawn out fights. I healed myself much faster and more efficiently with a resto staff. On the other hand, it felt like a crutch, and my sorcerer outgrew it. I don't use surge, so DD is unfortunately my only option. (Heal from Degeneration I definitely appreciate the boost it got from DB - it's why I use it.

If I cc, then dark deal, the target has usually broken cc and is coming after me sometime between the middle of the heal animation and me casting a shield. Sometimes they do this and heal themselves in the time it takes me to heal. 0.5 Second casting time or less might get me healed in time and back in the fight on time as well.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

We have figured it out... don't use it on the battlefield.

Part of the problem is that any way you cut it, it is hard to get off successfully, especially without taking even more damage.

Magicka builds could, theoretically, ward and then cast dark exchange/dea, or cc and then cast... or both. This is less viable for stamina builds (with only a very poor class ward or an expensive undaunted one) although cc is an option. And of course running and hiding is an option as well (streak is easier for magicka tho).

*But warding doesn't stop your 1s channel (which takes closer to 2s to do anything) from being interrupted and cc can last for almost 0s with a quick player.... which leaves running and hiding. Both of which are fraught with risk.

Not to mention that in pve vs a boss the cc option isn't a viable one.
.

In PvE, using boundless storm instead of rune prison allows me to kite most bosses or create enough distance to use dark deal & survive. I can even boundless + sprint to get out of the fight, then replenish the spent stamina with dark deal. That's PvE though...

Anybody else using some different combo of cc or other effects in order to ensure you get Dark E/D to work?

So, in a nutshell: 0s - 0.5s cast time is the best suggested improvement? Reduce the risk, do not adjust the reward. As sensible as a HOT alternative is, it is kind of "more of the same". I seriously doubt an increase of resources gained is on the table for this skill; if anything is at all for that matter. I like the skill and its improvement post DB; I want it to be a equal to or at least comparable to healing skills from the other classes or the Resto tree.

*Sorcerers shouldn't have to hide in dark corners just to accomplish dark deals!

Luckily sorc have an aoe cc that cc's everyone. Just streak then use it twice, get Los and use it. Etc...

NordSwordnBoard

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Luckily sorc have an aoe cc that cc's everyone. Just streak then use it twice, get Los and use it. Etc...

Attackers overcome that cc by attacking from opposite sides - and I'm not asking for encase to be 360 instead of a cone. It's just not that simple of a solution when a simple gap closer beats your streak. I stopped using streak because of that. Don't want to turn my back on enemies to use streak either.

Araviel2

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Luckily sorc have an aoe cc that cc's everyone. Just streak then use it twice, get Los and use it. Etc...

Attackers overcome that cc by attacking from opposite sides - and I'm not asking for encase to be 360 instead of a cone. It's just not that simple of a solution when a simple gap closer beats your streak. I stopped using streak because of that. Don't want to turn my back on enemies to use streak either.

you need to learn how to move to control the fight, for example to avoid getting flanked you move back - forcing your attackers to line up while giving chase.
now when they are lined up there is your chance to streak and cc them all.

granted i am talking about fighting the average pvp player here, players that generally don't keep immovable up at all times.
1vX vs top players i don't think we should talk about here, as that generally just don't fly unless you are a emp or something OP like a malubeth templar.

edit: by the way i think you really should try and start using streak again, its one of the best tools that we got, not only for defense but also for offense. the way it behaves makes it very useful to stack into combo bursts, for example streaks travel time is just marginally faster than the flight time of a crystal frag
and if you want to know how to overcome gap closers you combo streak whit dodge roll and use the I-frame window of the dodge to streak away. something that we have a much easier time doing now when dark deal gives us an increased supply of stamina.

Minalan

Just reduce the cast time to instant and make it a HOT...

Why is this so difficult? Leave the exchange morph the same for the Stam types.

DocFrost72

Birdovic wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I gotta say, I feel like if they made it an instant cast we'd see them either cut down the resources returned or overall find some way to nerf it. My magic sorc can permablock with it, and apply a 16k ward.

And he is in cp150 tank gear.

I think people talk about PvP mainly, there you cant do that. Not even permablock + cast (channel).

I totally get it, I'm just saying making it a non channel makes it better in both situations. In pve tanking, it's already REALLY good, so by ZoS logic it'll get nerfed. My real fear I suppose is what they would nerf to make it an instant cast.

I guess just making it uninteruptable (like templar jabs) would work fairly well though.

Jar_Ek

Stamina sorcerers have the same problems with dark deal / exchange - this isn't a point of differentiation @Minalan

In fact the problems are exacerbated for stamina builds as ward isn't a viable option to support pve boss fights.

Minalan

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Stamina sorcerers have the same problems with dark deal / exchange - this isn't a point of differentiation @Minalan

In fact the problems are exacerbated for stamina builds as ward isn't a viable option to support pve boss fights.

Have you tried it? Or watched a Fenrush video?

Here's a hint: It's a hell of a lot easier to get in a dark deal in when you have vigor and shuffle running right after a dodge roll.

NordSwordnBoard

Araviel2 wrote: »

... for example streaks travel time is just marginally faster than the flight time of a crystal frag

@Araviel2 I am intrigued by this, as I like finding new deadly burst combos. However, I'm a bigger fan of streak on paper than in practice. The after effect of floating straight down from higher terrain is my main complaint; it reminds me of 8-bit games. The effects of terrain and physics are stupid sometimes, and combined with any lag, I end up with more frustration with the skill than satisfaction. In my experience, streak has malfunctioned more than any other skill I've used. The consequences of an accidental or laggy double-cast are also far worse with this skill.

I might try to fit it in again, as I have tried in the past, but it doesn't really work with my current playstyle & rotation. Going back to the original tone of the post, I'd like Dark Exchange to be just a little faster - so I don't have to keep adding other skills to supplement using Dark Exchange in the first place. I do value the streak suggestion, though its not for me - not with how I'm playing now, anyway.

Jar_Ek

@Minalan Yes, I've tried it. Vigour is a hot and hence makes no difference to dark deal directly, shuffle helps as does dodge roll (but you cannot cast whilst rolling) but I am not FENGRUSH (who is top 0.1%) and I have a different build. My point still stands - it is not an easy skill to get off when you really need it. Vigour with a dodge roll is a safer bet for heals tbh.