Why the DK Wings Reflect Needs to Be Changed

TrueGreenSmoker

LEAVE DKS ALONE!!!! LEAVE EM ALONE!!!! >:'( LOL

Anti_Virus

@Cathexis You can't win OP

The devs are biased in favor of melee oriented builds be it magic or stam.

Drop your sorc and join the rest of them.

Lord_Hev

The OP has actually successfully attacked my brain cells by enticing me to open this thread.

Brutusmax1mus

I hate the word mashing when speaking about pressing some thing. Hate. "What button do i mash? I'm mashing it. It's mashed." Morons say that. Not calling you one, even though it sounds like i am, but compete illiterate idiots say mash when referring to pressing. Happy fourth of July. I'm drunk. Going to mash the power button and sleep.

Gonna mash the light off.
Mash.

thankyourat

Stam dk pretty much hard counters all classes it's a little op right now, I don't want dks nerfed but wings do need to be changed. It basically makes ranged builds useless. You can play around it but it's incredibly difficult and unnecessary. Stam dk is in a good spot right now. It's the best class, but it can be beat

Lokey0024

2hd is the best class. Stam dks are strong, but so are all stam builds because 2hd is strong. If reflect got any weaker (its not working 100% right now btw) it would be useless. Its high magika cost and limited duration. An easy work around

Bdawwg

As if stam dks can constantly reflect, they run out of magicka quick with needing igneous shield and other magicka utility spells.
As a sorc you have streak to cc a mag Dk with wings, curse, inevitable det, lightning or resto heavy, mines, mages wrath, pets.
and if you're a melee build then wings is useless anyway. Every build will have a counter, if you're playing ranged then a reflect will counter you.

Cathexis

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.

Ishammael wrote: »

Agreed, wings needs to fixed.
1. If you reflect a projectile, the debuffs should be reflected as well. This currently does not happen. (E.g. the heal debuffs from dark flare or lethal arrow stays even if reflected).
2. Should definitely be able to reflect projectiles fired from stealth. This currently does not work.
3. Please restore infinite reflect for 4s. Love killing people that can't stop mashing one button.
4. Please fix broken wings. Even if wings are up, they often fail to reflect projectiles.

Thanks for bringing these critical issues to light, OP!

I do think that many of the bugs with reflection do need to be fixed.

I also do think they need to bring back double reflect and reflecting meteor (especially since you can reflect overload and werewolf abilities, where the ultimates shouldn't be reflected logic then should also be applying)

incite wrote: »

You need to pay attention when he reflects and time your att's accordingly, i main a mag sorc and i dont have issues, no dk keeps his wings up at ALL times, you'll always find holes in between em, thats when your burst, good luck

I'm not having a tactical problem with wings, that's not the issue. The issue is not "there is no counter for wings" or "wings are unbeatable." I know how to fight wings. The thing is, when you actually look at counters for wings, the best counter for wings 4/5 times from what I can tell is just simply don't bother using range attacks when you could just slot a non reflect able skill.

Hutch679 wrote: »

This can't be a serious thread. If youre using all ranged skills to kill people the problem isnt reflective scale, it's your build. If you're a sorc, then you should learn how to time your damage in between reflects. If they sit there and constantly spam it, they will either a) not do enough damage to put you under pressure, or b) run out of magicka (as a Stam dk). Magicka Dk's really aren't that difficult to kill. L2P issue IMHO.

No one said anything about using all ranged skills, or having problems with beating Magicka DKs. The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

ToRelax

Bdawwg wrote: »

As if stam dks can constantly reflect, they run out of magicka quick with needing igneous shield and other magicka utility spells.
As a sorc you have streak to cc a mag Dk with wings, curse, inevitable det, lightning or resto heavy, mines, mages wrath, pets.
and if you're a melee build then wings is useless anyway. Every build will have a counter, if you're playing ranged then a reflect will counter you.

Except they don't need igenous shield and other magicka utility spells against a single sorc if they are using wings... so yeah, stam dks can constantly reflect.
As for your list, streak doesn't work for serious dmg for obvious reasons, curse and detonation only set up burst and can be easily outhealed if there's nothing to finish the opponent, heavy attacks are low damage, mines only work when the enemy runs into them, mage's wrath is a finisher and pets are garbage. Nope, we'll need projectiles then.

Burning_Talons

Nerf Daedric Mines it basically makes my melee build suck.


Shutup please

Anti_Virus

Burning_Talons wrote: »

Nerf Daedric Mines it basically makes my melee build suck.


Shutup please

Nerfing daedric mines wouldn't makes a difference melee builds would still be supperior.

NBrookus

Cathexis wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.
...
The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

I sympathize. My sorc hates DKs. But no build is going to be equally effective against everything out there. The fact that one class spec and skill is hard to counter for you is, IMO, a good thing. It's not something that needs to be fixed. A relatively stationary class has to have some sort of defense against ranged attacks.

kaithuzar

Reducing the reflect chance/rate will make wings unusable by any dk in pvp. If it is decreased it should be no more than 50% & in turn there should be a "reliable" gap closer; not something that can not be blocked.

Cathexis

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.
...
The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

I sympathize. My sorc hates DKs. But no build is going to be equally effective against everything out there. The fact that one class spec and skill is hard to counter for you is, IMO, a good thing. It's not something that needs to be fixed. A relatively stationary class has to have some sort of defense against ranged attacks.

I'm all for some sort of defense against range. Makes a lot of sense to me. I would argue you don't need to make a spec or skill more or less difficult to counter, just diverse in terms of play style - there is no justification for making one class weaker or stronger simply to have a counter class, it's a silly assumption with no actual basis in logical reasoning.

I would argue that given the complexity and diversity of the game, creating finite archetypes out of abstract play styles and character combinations is fundamentally a bad thing. But regardless it is how it is, and all that said, there are ways to change the mechanics to make dks have range defense without fully negating all range builds.

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

leepalmer95

Cathexis wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.
...
The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

I sympathize. My sorc hates DKs. But no build is going to be equally effective against everything out there. The fact that one class spec and skill is hard to counter for you is, IMO, a good thing. It's not something that needs to be fixed. A relatively stationary class has to have some sort of defense against ranged attacks.

I'm all for some sort of defense against range. Makes a lot of sense to me. I would argue you don't need to make a spec or skill more or less difficult to counter, just diverse in terms of play style - there is no justification for making one class weaker or stronger simply to have a counter class, it's a silly assumption with no actual basis in logical reasoning.

I would argue that given the complexity and diversity of the game, creating finite archetypes out of abstract play styles and character combinations is fundamentally a bad thing. But regardless it is how it is, and all that said, there are ways to change the mechanics to make dks have range defense without fully negating all range builds.

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

Think of it like this, you may struggle to kill a mag dk, but you'll get their eventually. But if your careful they won't be abl to kill you because their damage is bad and there missing burst.

NBrookus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Think of it like this, you may struggle to kill a mag dk, but you'll get their eventually. But if your careful they won't be abl to kill you because their damage is bad and there missing burst.

Very true. I was doing some friendly practice dueling with a mine-camping sorc today and my S&B mag DK could hardly touch him. Every time I had an opening I couldn't burst him down before he recovered. Meanwhile I'm eating curses and inevitable dets and ultimates. Without wings that duel would have been over in 10 seconds instead of 2-3 minutes. (Yes, I lost. Mistakes were made.)

Cathexis wrote: »

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

Not casting frags at a DK - or anyone running Defensive Stance - is indeed an inconvenience, but you do have other hard-hitting ranged abilities that can't be reflected.

Cathexis

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.
...
The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

I sympathize. My sorc hates DKs. But no build is going to be equally effective against everything out there. The fact that one class spec and skill is hard to counter for you is, IMO, a good thing. It's not something that needs to be fixed. A relatively stationary class has to have some sort of defense against ranged attacks.

I'm all for some sort of defense against range. Makes a lot of sense to me. I would argue you don't need to make a spec or skill more or less difficult to counter, just diverse in terms of play style - there is no justification for making one class weaker or stronger simply to have a counter class, it's a silly assumption with no actual basis in logical reasoning.

I would argue that given the complexity and diversity of the game, creating finite archetypes out of abstract play styles and character combinations is fundamentally a bad thing. But regardless it is how it is, and all that said, there are ways to change the mechanics to make dks have range defense without fully negating all range builds.

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

Think of it like this, you may struggle to kill a mag dk, but you'll get their eventually. But if your careful they won't be abl to kill you because their damage is bad and there missing burst.

*FACEPALM* READ.

NOT A L2P ISSUE.

Lord_Hev

Cathexis wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.
...
The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

I sympathize. My sorc hates DKs. But no build is going to be equally effective against everything out there. The fact that one class spec and skill is hard to counter for you is, IMO, a good thing. It's not something that needs to be fixed. A relatively stationary class has to have some sort of defense against ranged attacks.

I'm all for some sort of defense against range. Makes a lot of sense to me. I would argue you don't need to make a spec or skill more or less difficult to counter, just diverse in terms of play style - there is no justification for making one class weaker or stronger simply to have a counter class, it's a silly assumption with no actual basis in logical reasoning.

I would argue that given the complexity and diversity of the game, creating finite archetypes out of abstract play styles and character combinations is fundamentally a bad thing. But regardless it is how it is, and all that said, there are ways to change the mechanics to make dks have range defense without fully negating all range builds.

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

Think of it like this, you may struggle to kill a mag dk, but you'll get their eventually. But if your careful they won't be abl to kill you because their damage is bad and there missing burst.

*FACEPALM* READ.

NOT A L2P ISSUE.

It most definitely is. If you are that same ****y DC stam sorc of similar name, yeah I totally see why you need DKs nerfed even more lol. So potato.


It is a L2p issue. Adapt your build and deal with wings by adding melee in your arsenal. Quit being a primadonna.

Cathexis

NBrookus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Think of it like this, you may struggle to kill a mag dk, but you'll get their eventually. But if your careful they won't be abl to kill you because their damage is bad and there missing burst.

Very true. I was doing some friendly practice dueling with a mine-camping sorc today and my S&B mag DK could hardly touch him. Every time I had an opening I couldn't burst him down before he recovered. Meanwhile I'm eating curses and inevitable dets and ultimates. Without wings that duel would have been over in 10 seconds instead of 2-3 minutes. (Yes, I lost. Mistakes were made.)

Cathexis wrote: »

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

Not casting frags at a DK - or anyone running Defensive Stance - is indeed an inconvenience, but you do have other hard-hitting ranged abilities that can't be reflected.

There are not many I can see. Meteor and Soulstrike can be blocked through easily. Daedric Curse doesn't do enough damage on a stam and has a 4 second delay. Inev Det has a 1s cast time, a delay, and doesn't scale with stam, endless fury only procs under 20% and doesn't scale with stam, destro staff abilities don't scale with stam, resto heavy attack does not hit hard enough. I mean I can keep going but I really don't know that there's an argument to be made for non reflectable hard hitting range abilities, especially for stam. Mag I will admit has better adaptability to wings, but it's not great either.

Cathexis

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.
...
The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

I sympathize. My sorc hates DKs. But no build is going to be equally effective against everything out there. The fact that one class spec and skill is hard to counter for you is, IMO, a good thing. It's not something that needs to be fixed. A relatively stationary class has to have some sort of defense against ranged attacks.

I'm all for some sort of defense against range. Makes a lot of sense to me. I would argue you don't need to make a spec or skill more or less difficult to counter, just diverse in terms of play style - there is no justification for making one class weaker or stronger simply to have a counter class, it's a silly assumption with no actual basis in logical reasoning.

I would argue that given the complexity and diversity of the game, creating finite archetypes out of abstract play styles and character combinations is fundamentally a bad thing. But regardless it is how it is, and all that said, there are ways to change the mechanics to make dks have range defense without fully negating all range builds.

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

Think of it like this, you may struggle to kill a mag dk, but you'll get their eventually. But if your careful they won't be abl to kill you because their damage is bad and there missing burst.

*FACEPALM* READ.

NOT A L2P ISSUE.

It most definitely is. If you are that same ****y DC stam sorc of similar name, yeah I totally see why you need DKs nerfed even more lol. So potato.


It is a L2p issue. Adapt your build and deal with wings by adding melee in your arsenal. Quit being a primadonna.

@Lord_Hev lol come fight me bro I'll tear you apart.
And no its not, learn to read. My build is entirely melee, which is actually the point im trying to make.

Lord-Otto

Yeah, right? Because magicka sorcs are so over the top powerful theses days, they need a hard counter and less versatility and also less damage.
Only that IC DLC was the dawn of stamblades, TG was magblades and now Cyro is crawling with stamblades again. And templars. Sorcs totally need more nerf and counters, shield breaker, shield nerf and destro staff weakness aren't enough, obviously. Just today, I counted a whole FOUR magicka sorc in the top 100 of Scourge campaign.
Just adapt and make your build even weaker to have a chance at fighting DKs! Good solution! xD
LMFAO.

There is nothing you can do against DKs. Yes, stam DKs CAN hold wings up 95% of the time. And you are not bursting down a DK in the other 5%. Curse? Which goes off after 4 seconds? Meh. Inevitable Det, an interruptible, telegraphed move? Against a single target, even? Really? Healing heavy attack? Bit weak. In the meantime, those DKs have 100% of their damage output. This isn't balance, it is a rock-paper-scissors system which demands that you lose against DKs. Only, that this kind of thinking is BS, because it's the same kind of thinking that's behind ZOS encouraging zerging. Which makes PvP trash.

Mines are the problem. They are immobile, deal little damage (even got nerfed, lol) and don't STOP attacks like wings do. Mines should be the edge that a 2.8k damage destro staff sorc has over that 3.4k magicka nightblade or 3.8 stamina DK, but it fails to even the odds. Having to stand in one spot while fighting WB is a bad idea. Streak even gets you out of your mines. Your enemy can see the mines coming... And so on, it's terrible. But unfortunately, that's all we have.

I think mines should be changed to something like orbs, floating around you. And when you get hit, that orb should reflect melee damage. High cost, short duration, only three orbs. So that it actually compliments a sorc's skills and doesn't make you a sitting duck waving at you with an old branch.

But here I am, knowing that ZOS won't abandon their melee bias and the stam players definitely won't. Whatever, just nerf shields instead!
d(ò.ó)

Tormy

Definitely a l2p issue lol

NBrookus

Cathexis wrote: »

@Lord_Hev lol come fight me bro I'll tear you apart.
And no its not, learn to read. My build is entirely melee, which is actually the point im trying to make.

Wait... if your build is all melee, why are you complaining about wings?

Mag sorc complaining about DKs... okay. Any stam spec complaining about mag DKs... yeah, no.

I look forward to the video.

Anti_Virus

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Yeah, right? Because magicka sorcs are so over the top powerful theses days, they need a hard counter and less versatility and also less damage.
Only that IC DLC was the dawn of stamblades, TG was magblades and now Cyro is crawling with stamblades again. And templars. Sorcs totally need more nerf and counters, shield breaker, shield nerf and destro staff weakness aren't enough, obviously. Just today, I counted a whole FOUR magicka sorc in the top 100 of Scourge campaign.
Just adapt and make your build even weaker to have a chance at fighting DKs! Good solution! xD
LMFAO.

There is nothing you can do against DKs. Yes, stam DKs CAN hold wings up 95% of the time. And you are not bursting down a DK in the other 5%. Curse? Which goes off after 4 seconds? Meh. Inevitable Det, an interruptible, telegraphed move? Against a single target, even? Really? Healing heavy attack? Bit weak. In the meantime, those DKs have 100% of their damage output. This isn't balance, it is a rock-paper-scissors system which demands that you lose against DKs. Only, that this kind of thinking is BS, because it's the same kind of thinking that's behind ZOS encouraging zerging. Which makes PvP trash.

Mines are the problem. They are immobile, deal little damage (even got nerfed, lol) and don't STOP attacks like wings do. Mines should be the edge that a 2.8k damage destro staff sorc has over that 3.4k magicka nightblade or 3.8 stamina DK, but it fails to even the odds. Having to stand in one spot while fighting WB is a bad idea. Streak even gets you out of your mines. Your enemy can see the mines coming... And so on, it's terrible. But unfortunately, that's all we have.

I think mines should be changed to something like orbs, floating around you. And when you get hit, that orb should reflect melee damage. High cost, short duration, only three orbs. So that it actually compliments a sorc's skills and doesn't make you a sitting duck waving at you with an old branch.

But here I am, knowing that ZOS won't abandon their melee bias and the stam players definitely won't. Whatever, just nerf shields instead!
d(ò.ó)

Lol Zos has been biased for melee builds since 1.6 and it's never going to stop until dueling/ battle grounds are implemented.

Lord_Hev

Cathexis wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.
...
The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

I sympathize. My sorc hates DKs. But no build is going to be equally effective against everything out there. The fact that one class spec and skill is hard to counter for you is, IMO, a good thing. It's not something that needs to be fixed. A relatively stationary class has to have some sort of defense against ranged attacks.

I'm all for some sort of defense against range. Makes a lot of sense to me. I would argue you don't need to make a spec or skill more or less difficult to counter, just diverse in terms of play style - there is no justification for making one class weaker or stronger simply to have a counter class, it's a silly assumption with no actual basis in logical reasoning.

I would argue that given the complexity and diversity of the game, creating finite archetypes out of abstract play styles and character combinations is fundamentally a bad thing. But regardless it is how it is, and all that said, there are ways to change the mechanics to make dks have range defense without fully negating all range builds.

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

Think of it like this, you may struggle to kill a mag dk, but you'll get their eventually. But if your careful they won't be abl to kill you because their damage is bad and there missing burst.

*FACEPALM* READ.

NOT A L2P ISSUE.

It most definitely is. If you are that same ****y DC stam sorc of similar name, yeah I totally see why you need DKs nerfed even more lol. So potato.


It is a L2p issue. Adapt your build and deal with wings by adding melee in your arsenal. Quit being a primadonna.

@Lord_Hev lol come fight me bro I'll tear you apart.
And no its not, learn to read. My build is entirely melee, which is actually the point im trying to make.

The potato stam sorc QQing about DK wings is going to tear me apart, I'm practically quivering in fear.

Cathexis

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

@Lord_Hev lol come fight me bro I'll tear you apart.
And no its not, learn to read. My build is entirely melee, which is actually the point im trying to make.

Wait... if your build is all melee, why are you complaining about wings?

Mag sorc complaining about DKs... okay. Any stam spec complaining about mag DKs... yeah, no.

I look forward to the video.

*Facepalm*

Not sure how many times I've said now I'm not complaining about dks being op. I have no problem with mag dks. This is not a nerf mag dks thread.

I was hoping to explore the idea that perhaps wings could be changed in some way to where it serves an equitable function without negating the use of 90% of range abilities, because what is the point in having range abilities if they are tactically unsound.

NBrookus

Cathexis wrote: »

Not sure how many times I've said now I'm not complaining about dks being op. I have no problem with mag dks. This is not a nerf mag dks thread.

I was hoping to explore the idea that perhaps wings could be changed in some way to where it serves an equitable function without negating the use of 90% of range abilities, because what is the point in having range abilities if they are tactically unsound.

I see. You only want to nerf (again) a buggy, expensive skill that the weakest spec in open world pvp uses for defense against ranged attackers they can't reach. But not #NerfDK. You need to present a possible solution, because right now you just sound like you are complaining that you have to make an effort to kill DKs. Yes, stam DKs are OP right now, but nerfing wings would hit magicka much worse; stam can roll dodge and Vigor through the damage.

Here's my idea for wings: give it the sorc shield treatment. It lasts for 6 seconds and works on every projectile. As crappy as 6 second shields are, it'd be a step up for DKs. After all, Defensive Stance lasts for 30 seconds.

Toc de Malsvi

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Not sure how many times I've said now I'm not complaining about dks being op. I have no problem with mag dks. This is not a nerf mag dks thread.

I was hoping to explore the idea that perhaps wings could be changed in some way to where it serves an equitable function without negating the use of 90% of range abilities, because what is the point in having range abilities if they are tactically unsound.

I see. You only want to nerf (again) a buggy, expensive skill that the weakest spec in open world pvp uses for defense against ranged attackers they can't reach. But not #NerfDK. You need to present a possible solution, because right now you just sound like you are complaining that you have to make an effort to kill DKs. Yes, stam DKs are OP right now, but nerfing wings would hit magicka much worse; stam can roll dodge and Vigor through the damage.

Here's my idea for wings: give it the sorc shield treatment. It lasts for 6 seconds and works on every projectile. As crappy as 6 second shields are, it'd be a step up for DKs. After all, Defensive Stance lasts for 30 seconds.

The reflect timer is so short because of how overpowered it was and can still be as a hard counter to any ranged attack. This isn't about MagDK being weak cause we all get it they are weak and generally the easiest class/build to kill.

Players want to whine about 100% dodge chance when rolling but 4 seconds of immunity to ranged is not unbalanced? Let's be clear here MagDK's aren't getting rolled on by ranged builds. They are getting trucked by melee, which means they have a completely different issue unrelated to wings.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

*I miss double reflect.
*I miss a functional Eclipse.
*I think Reflect as a 100% proposition is in and of itself the flaw. Give Reflect a more reasonable 25% chance or 33% chance rate, keep a long duration, and I'll appreciate it more. It will still have value to DK's (get rid of the projectile # limitation) as it will directly give a 25%-33% reduction in Ranged damage, and it will still put pressure and fear on ranged attackers without completely shutting them down. I never understood why you'd put 100% reflection in this game Unless you want to give us 100% resistance too (not something I recommend). The whole notion is bass ackwards and really ought to be reconsidered. I've stated this before, multiple times, mostly on deaf ears, and sometimes with people replying angrily in forum posts about it. I don't recommend this to nerf DK's, and honestly I think it would be an improvement. Think about it, you could fire and forget your wings and they'd be applying pressure for the whole duration, same with defensive posture, and some new reasonable variant of Eclipse. This is the direction I seriously hope ZoS moves toward.

I like this idea but I think it would be too strong for Stamina, as a passive buff.

So here's my idea:

30 second buff giving 5% chance to reflect that increases in scale with maximum magicka/spell power up to 30%. Also Minor expedition for the duration of the buff, and when activating the dragon wings leap forwards 10m. This would address Magicka DK mobility issues somewhat while making the skill less desirable for stamina.

KisoValley

As a Stam DK and a Mag Sorc main I can say confidently this is a 100% L2P issue lmfao.

No Stam DK that is legit can keep wings up 95% of the time not even 75% of the time. In Mythical's dueling tournament the judges even added/docked points in case of a tie for the usage of wings for Stam DKs because they know they can't keep them up as much as people seem to think.

As for Mag DKs? They have barely any damage so a Mag Sorc should win that anyway lol

KisoValley

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Not sure how many times I've said now I'm not complaining about dks being op. I have no problem with mag dks. This is not a nerf mag dks thread.

I was hoping to explore the idea that perhaps wings could be changed in some way to where it serves an equitable function without negating the use of 90% of range abilities, because what is the point in having range abilities if they are tactically unsound.

I see. You only want to nerf (again) a buggy, expensive skill that the weakest spec in open world pvp uses for defense against ranged attackers they can't reach. But not #NerfDK. You need to present a possible solution, because right now you just sound like you are complaining that you have to make an effort to kill DKs. Yes, stam DKs are OP right now, but nerfing wings would hit magicka much worse; stam can roll dodge and Vigor through the damage.

Here's my idea for wings: give it the sorc shield treatment. It lasts for 6 seconds and works on every projectile. As crappy as 6 second shields are, it'd be a step up for DKs. After all, Defensive Stance lasts for 30 seconds.

The reflect timer is so short because of how overpowered it was and can still be as a hard counter to any ranged attack. This isn't about MagDK being weak cause we all get it they are weak and generally the easiest class/build to kill.

Players want to whine about 100% dodge chance when rolling but 4 seconds of immunity to ranged is not unbalanced? Let's be clear here MagDK's aren't getting rolled on by ranged builds. They are getting trucked by melee, which means they have a completely different issue unrelated to wings.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

*I miss double reflect.
*I miss a functional Eclipse.
*I think Reflect as a 100% proposition is in and of itself the flaw. Give Reflect a more reasonable 25% chance or 33% chance rate, keep a long duration, and I'll appreciate it more. It will still have value to DK's (get rid of the projectile # limitation) as it will directly give a 25%-33% reduction in Ranged damage, and it will still put pressure and fear on ranged attackers without completely shutting them down. I never understood why you'd put 100% reflection in this game Unless you want to give us 100% resistance too (not something I recommend). The whole notion is bass ackwards and really ought to be reconsidered. I've stated this before, multiple times, mostly on deaf ears, and sometimes with people replying angrily in forum posts about it. I don't recommend this to nerf DK's, and honestly I think it would be an improvement. Think about it, you could fire and forget your wings and they'd be applying pressure for the whole duration, same with defensive posture, and some new reasonable variant of Eclipse. This is the direction I seriously hope ZoS moves toward.

I like this idea but I think it would be too strong for Stamina, as a passive buff.

So here's my idea:

30 second buff giving 5% chance to reflect that increases in scale with maximum magicka/spell power up to 30%. Also Minor expedition for the duration of the buff, and when activating the dragon wings leap forwards 10m. This would address Magicka DK mobility issues somewhat while making the skill less desirable for stamina.

I highly doubt very many Stam DKs will use it if they took away the 100% even if you added what you mention because they can't keep it up as much as Mag DKs even though some broccolis on here seem to think they can. I know I'd drop it for sure like what the *** is the point in it?

Typical broccolis trying to nerf a skill that doesn't even work all of the time because it's the only skill in the game to counter their beyond broken class.