Why the DK Wings Reflect Needs to Be Changed

Cathexis

Just before I say anything, I would like to start by saying that this is not a nerf dks thread. I dont think dks in general are too overpowered.

I'm starting to find, however, that it is really cumbersome to have to work around a build which basically can't include range attacks. I understand I might be biased because I play primarily as a sorc as both stam and mag, but in both cases, making an adequate build for all around fighting basically necessitates that none of your attacks can be projectile based. That means no crystal frags, no overload, no throwing daggers, no poison arrow, no snipe, no silver bolts, no scatter shot, and not a lot of destro staff abilities. While that's the bulk of them I'm not even certain if that is the complete list. It is a bit ridiculous to me that this ability can counter that many abilities, and so aggressively, especially with the removal of double reflect. Running a stam sorc, you are highly dependent on weapon skills and with so many being easily reflected without a counter this seriously limits your options.

I'm just generally wondering if many others experience the same issue with their build.

Brutusmax1mus

It does counter a ton of stuff, it wasn't a problem as much with double reflect, you're right.

Don't see it as a problem now since the duration is short, i just use it as time to do my own recovery. That being said i don't fight dks on my sorc. I literally don't run a build that can fight reflect spam.

It's really only op in 1v1 which is not what this have Is built around.

pcar944

if anything, half the time my wings don't reflect anything

DannyLV702

Bring back double reflect!!

incite

You need to pay attention when he reflects and time your att's accordingly, i main a mag sorc and i dont have issues, no dk keeps his wings up at ALL times, you'll always find holes in between em, thats when your burst, good luck

Araviel2

i think its fine, and i say that as a magica sorc,
Stam DK's can't spam wings all the time, when wings go up start counting down form 4 while going on defensive.
if its a mag dk then he is vulnerable to CC like any other magica class - start streaking.

Bashev

One crushing shot with light attack and wings are gone. On top of that they are bugged and do not reflect the debuffs and the DoT damage.

Nightenhowl

So you want a class with mostly close range abilities to be a seating duck to range casters? Remember to use Dots and time your burst.

Hutch679

This can't be a serious thread. If youre using all ranged skills to kill people the problem isnt reflective scale, it's your build. If you're a sorc, then you should learn how to time your damage in between reflects. If they sit there and constantly spam it, they will either a) not do enough damage to put you under pressure, or b) run out of magicka (as a Stam dk). Magicka Dk's really aren't that difficult to kill. L2P issue IMHO.

ToRelax

Bashev wrote: »

One crushing shot with light attack and wings are gone. On top of that they are bugged and do not reflect the debuffs and the DoT damage.

No, Force Shock counts as one projectile.

RoamingRiverElk

Yes, make wings reflect six projectiles. I'd be fine with that change even as a magicka sorc.

Lokey0024

Tl:Dr
Im not saying nerf dks, but nerf dks.

ThulsaDoomDC

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with OP on this one. I run a mDK heavily and wings are really my only counter to a sorc. I have 2k unbuffed spell damage but still when I need to resource manage I'll use heavy attack resto and wings at a distance. It's all about how you play. Plus I use wings all the time in group pvp and honestly 4 projectiles in group pvp goes by fast

yodased

I agree wings should reflect siege.

Sandman929

yodased wrote: »

I agree wings should reflect siege.

Wings reflecting siege would be awesome, but only on direct hits. I'd love to see flappy DK's trying to get the headshots.

leepalmer95

Nah wings aren't that strong, there are ok if they actually work but how many builds are actually ranged, the only one i can think of is mag sorc and they have stacking, mines, curse, heavy lightning etc...

A class with 0 range needs something to handle range.

PeggymoeXD

No. Just no.

dodgehopper_ESO

*I miss double reflect.
*I miss a functional Eclipse.
*I think Reflect as a 100% proposition is in and of itself the flaw. Give Reflect a more reasonable 25% chance or 33% chance rate, keep a long duration, and I'll appreciate it more. It will still have value to DK's (get rid of the projectile # limitation) as it will directly give a 25%-33% reduction in Ranged damage, and it will still put pressure and fear on ranged attackers without completely shutting them down. I never understood why you'd put 100% reflection in this game Unless you want to give us 100% resistance too (not something I recommend). The whole notion is bass ackwards and really ought to be reconsidered. I've stated this before, multiple times, mostly on deaf ears, and sometimes with people replying angrily in forum posts about it. I don't recommend this to nerf DK's, and honestly I think it would be an improvement. Think about it, you could fire and forget your wings and they'd be applying pressure for the whole duration, same with defensive posture, and some new reasonable variant of Eclipse. This is the direction I seriously hope ZoS moves toward.

Marque

I can't disagree more, it only lasts 4 seconds or through 4 projectiles, whichever comes first. If for whatever reason you cant find a way to time your projectiles to when the dk lets them down, you're a sorc. You can literally just speed away and the dk can not catch you.

DUTCH_REAPER

Dude...seriously???

I'mma go make some sweet tea and walk away from this thread because I know I did not just click on a ESO thread that is trying to NERF the DK class.

Editing- the / due to hightened emotion

Armitas

#bring back meteor reflect.

dodgehopper_ESO

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Dude...seriously???

I'mma go make some sweet tea and walk away from this thread because I know I did not just click on a ESO thread that is trying to NERF the DK class.

/middlefinger

My proposal is meant as a way to nerf-proof the skill. If you had Evasion-duration on a 25-33% reflect it would balance out a few problems people have with Scales/Posture. Firstly, it would put pressure on the aggressor and make them give pause particularly if their health got low, BUT they could still have a shot at doing SOME damage to you. It wouldn't be perfect defense at range which is the issue ranged fighters have. Conversely, it would save a lot of magicka on the DK's part if he could fire and forget the skill (like it use to be during the perma-dk bats doublestacking ulti era) without all the flaws of that era. I've always felt perfect reflect was the issue with the skill. The only thing worse is perfect spell absorption. While perfect reflect/absorption were possible in standalone games I really think they are bad in the pvp balance of things in a multiplayer game. My proposal is meant to be a balance to the skill, where a tanky DK could still reflect a hell of a lot of projectiles, but he couldn't withstand 100 players firing at him from range purely because he is Sir-Flaps-A lot.

leepalmer95

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Dude...seriously???

I'mma go make some sweet tea and walk away from this thread because I know I did not just click on a ESO thread that is trying to NERF the DK class.

/middlefinger

My proposal is meant as a way to nerf-proof the skill. If you had Evasion-duration on a 25-33% reflect it would balance out a few problems people have with Scales/Posture. Firstly, it would put pressure on the aggressor and make them give pause particularly if their health got low, BUT they could still have a shot at doing SOME damage to you. It wouldn't be perfect defense at range which is the issue ranged fighters have. Conversely, it would save a lot of magicka on the DK's part if he could fire and forget the skill (like it use to be during the perma-dk bats doublestacking ulti era) without all the flaws of that era. I've always felt perfect reflect was the issue with the skill. The only thing worse is perfect spell absorption. While perfect reflect/absorption were possible in standalone games I really think they are bad in the pvp balance of things in a multiplayer game. My proposal is meant to be a balance to the skill, where a tanky DK could still reflect a hell of a lot of projectiles, but he couldn't withstand 100 players firing at him from range purely because he is Sir-Flaps-A lot.

Adding more RNG to pvp is not the answer, shuffle RNG is already annoying enough.

It shouldn't be hard for range builds to either but some skills that aren't projectiles or simply time their strong projectiles, e.g. Hold that proc frags, when wings it about to end, cc and shoot.

dodgehopper_ESO

leepalmer95 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Dude...seriously???

I'mma go make some sweet tea and walk away from this thread because I know I did not just click on a ESO thread that is trying to NERF the DK class.

/middlefinger

My proposal is meant as a way to nerf-proof the skill. If you had Evasion-duration on a 25-33% reflect it would balance out a few problems people have with Scales/Posture. Firstly, it would put pressure on the aggressor and make them give pause particularly if their health got low, BUT they could still have a shot at doing SOME damage to you. It wouldn't be perfect defense at range which is the issue ranged fighters have. Conversely, it would save a lot of magicka on the DK's part if he could fire and forget the skill (like it use to be during the perma-dk bats doublestacking ulti era) without all the flaws of that era. I've always felt perfect reflect was the issue with the skill. The only thing worse is perfect spell absorption. While perfect reflect/absorption were possible in standalone games I really think they are bad in the pvp balance of things in a multiplayer game. My proposal is meant to be a balance to the skill, where a tanky DK could still reflect a hell of a lot of projectiles, but he couldn't withstand 100 players firing at him from range purely because he is Sir-Flaps-A lot.

Adding more RNG to pvp is not the answer, shuffle RNG is already annoying enough.

It shouldn't be hard for range builds to either but some skills that aren't projectiles or simply time their strong projectiles, e.g. Hold that proc frags, when wings it about to end, cc and shoot.

Shuffle RNG is better than Perfect Evasion. My solution deals with the complaint, while also making the cost/benefit ratio an actual improvement to the DK. I personally feel my proposal is balanced, even if it does involve an RNG (which is part and parcel of much of the game to begin with).

ThulsaDoomDC

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Dude...seriously???

I'mma go make some sweet tea and walk away from this thread because I know I did not just click on a ESO thread that is trying to NERF the DK class.

Editing- the / due to hightened emotion

Lmao. Dude the struggle is real for us.

Lord_Hev

Is this thread really a ****ing thing? Or did I somehow go back in time?

PeggymoeXD

I accidentally came back to this thread just to get irritated. Please don't take this personally, but it's people like you that are making this game too easy. Which decreases its longevity overall. If there aren't things to grind towards, or certain skills to be mastered, the game would be super boring and get old quick.

Seriously, don't take this the wrong way.. But this is the most legitimate case of L2P I've seen in a long time. DK's are probably the least favorite class after they were nerfed beyond belief. And now you're complaining about the one skill that functions properly and allows for some sort of survival against the eighty million bowtards/casters who spam the same skills repeatedly. It takes some practice, but seriously.. All you have to do is time your shots and CC. I mean it's cyrodiil. Just CC the living fudge out of the DK until he's laying crippled on the ground. He can't cast wings from down there. Also nerf bombard.

jello

Why Slot wings without sorcs in cyro?

Lord-Otto

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nah wings aren't that strong, there are ok if they actually work but how many builds are actually ranged, the only one i can think of is mag sorc and they have stacking, mines, curse, heavy lightning etc...

A class with 0 range needs something to handle range.

Dude...
Stam DKs have bows, and they use it better than anyone else thanks to Molten Weapons and poison passives.
And regarding your (once again) sorc bias: shield stacking is short now and gets you killed anyway. Mines only hit once for a ton of magicka cost and are stationary and telegraphed, so pose no risk at all. Curse deals a bit of damage after 4 secs, whuppie! Heavy staff attacks... Really? Not only bashable, but set your dps to... 5k?
Just look at your leaderboard, how many sorcs do you see on top, and how many of them are not stamina sorcs? Claiming that sorcs are fine right now is just denial.

ToRelax

Lord-Otto wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nah wings aren't that strong, there are ok if they actually work but how many builds are actually ranged, the only one i can think of is mag sorc and they have stacking, mines, curse, heavy lightning etc...

A class with 0 range needs something to handle range.

Dude...
Stam DKs have bows, and they use it better than anyone else thanks to Molten Weapons and poison passives.
And regarding your (once again) sorc bias: shield stacking is short now and gets you killed anyway. Mines only hit once for a ton of magicka cost and are stationary and telegraphed, so pose no risk at all. Curse deals a bit of damage after 4 secs, whuppie! Heavy staff attacks... Really? Not only bashable, but set your dps to... 5k?
Just look at your leaderboard, how many sorcs do you see on top, and how many of them are not stamina sorcs? Claiming that sorcs are fine right now is just denial.

Heavy attacks are uninterruptable.

Ishammael

Agreed, wings needs to fixed.
1. If you reflect a projectile, the debuffs should be reflected as well. This currently does not happen. (E.g. the heal debuffs from dark flare or lethal arrow stays even if reflected).
2. Should definitely be able to reflect projectiles fired from stealth. This currently does not work.
3. Please restore infinite reflect for 4s. Love killing people that can't stop mashing one button.
4. Please fix broken wings. Even if wings are up, they often fail to reflect projectiles.

Thanks for bringing these critical issues to light, OP!