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Concept: Werewolf Ultimate Count as the Timer

  • starkerealm
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    In short Werewolf has 2 sustainability problems:
    1. Has nothing to maintain the form when not in combat too much, thus wasting the transformation and/or forcing you to constantly seek combat, which isn't always doable and depending on how long it takes to find more may not help anyway.
    2. World Bosses without ads are NOT Werewolf friendly, and neither are Dolmens where corpses do not linger beyond the Worm Cultists and final Daedra.

    2 isn't true anymore. So long as you're taking damage every 3 seconds, your timer will effectively stop.

    Against a World Boss that can be rather troublesome depending on the crowd present. Hard to take damage if the enemies ignore you and the ads are slaughtered...

    If you're getting ignored because there are so many people there... you're not getting that much out of the transform. Also, you've got a gap closer on your bar, there's no excuse for not using it.

    Or maybe someone there has stronger DPS or is using a taunt, or the enemy is enraged at a healer. Plenty of reasons to get ignored by enemies you know. Gap closers won't change aggro by themselves either.

    Gap closers have nothing to do with aggro, but they have a lot to do with getting to adds.

    But, again, for the full duration of the transform, these days, not being able to maintain a transform long enough is, really, a l2p issue, not a fault with the transform itself.
  • UltimaJoe777
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    In short Werewolf has 2 sustainability problems:
    1. Has nothing to maintain the form when not in combat too much, thus wasting the transformation and/or forcing you to constantly seek combat, which isn't always doable and depending on how long it takes to find more may not help anyway.
    2. World Bosses without ads are NOT Werewolf friendly, and neither are Dolmens where corpses do not linger beyond the Worm Cultists and final Daedra.

    2 isn't true anymore. So long as you're taking damage every 3 seconds, your timer will effectively stop.

    Against a World Boss that can be rather troublesome depending on the crowd present. Hard to take damage if the enemies ignore you and the ads are slaughtered...

    If you're getting ignored because there are so many people there... you're not getting that much out of the transform. Also, you've got a gap closer on your bar, there's no excuse for not using it.

    Or maybe someone there has stronger DPS or is using a taunt, or the enemy is enraged at a healer. Plenty of reasons to get ignored by enemies you know. Gap closers won't change aggro by themselves either.

    Gap closers have nothing to do with aggro, but they have a lot to do with getting to adds.

    But, again, for the full duration of the transform, these days, not being able to maintain a transform long enough is, really, a l2p issue, not a fault with the transform itself.

    Have to disagree with you there. Just because you gap close on an ad doesn't mean it's gonna attack you. If anything it would drop dead from you wailing on it while it attacks someone else. Then it just boils down to have to spend time devouring it rather than attack the boss, and as you should be aware attacking the boss as much as you can is how you get kill credits. Also I never said it's hard to maintain the transformation but there are times when you do get inconvenienced by the absence of factors that help you maintain it, thus either forcing you to group with other werewolves (and more often than not they will decline your invite) or have to re-transform. Saying L2P is is basically saying you plead the fifth here.
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • starkerealm
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    Saying L2P is is basically saying you plead the fifth here.

    No, saying L2P is basically saying, "this is a PEBKAC issue."

    Actually, there's one major, fundamental, flaw with your idea. Devour allows you refill your timer. If you switched Werewolf over to an ultimate consumer, instead of a normal ultimate, it would create a situation where you could wolf out, generate ultimate, revert, then use ANOTHER ultimate immediately. If this was intended behavior, it would stand to reason that we'd be allowed to keep the ultimate we generate while transformed, rather than resetting it on the revert. More than that, it would make devour a massive way to generate ultimate OR nerf the werewolf transform significantly.
  • UltimaJoe777
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    Saying L2P is is basically saying you plead the fifth here.

    No, saying L2P is basically saying, "this is a PEBKAC issue."

    Actually, there's one major, fundamental, flaw with your idea. Devour allows you refill your timer. If you switched Werewolf over to an ultimate consumer, instead of a normal ultimate, it would create a situation where you could wolf out, generate ultimate, revert, then use ANOTHER ultimate immediately. If this was intended behavior, it would stand to reason that we'd be allowed to keep the ultimate we generate while transformed, rather than resetting it on the revert. More than that, it would make devour a massive way to generate ultimate OR nerf the werewolf transform significantly.

    This is a good reason as to why the Ultimate countdown would begin the MOMENT you activate the transformation, which means while transforming you are losing Ultimate, thus preventing abuse. Also Devour would be modified so it does not give like 100 Ultimate per use of course. It would be balanced as need be so Ultimate gain is not that drastic. Furthermore the original cost would remain and since the Werewolf Transformation is the highest costing Ultimate in the game you wouldn't NEED to transform just to devour just to gain Ultimate just to use other Ultimates, because you already CAN use them. Sure Overload would be the exception here but as I said devour would not be that drastic lol
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • starkerealm
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    Saying L2P is is basically saying you plead the fifth here.

    No, saying L2P is basically saying, "this is a PEBKAC issue."

    Actually, there's one major, fundamental, flaw with your idea. Devour allows you refill your timer. If you switched Werewolf over to an ultimate consumer, instead of a normal ultimate, it would create a situation where you could wolf out, generate ultimate, revert, then use ANOTHER ultimate immediately. If this was intended behavior, it would stand to reason that we'd be allowed to keep the ultimate we generate while transformed, rather than resetting it on the revert. More than that, it would make devour a massive way to generate ultimate OR nerf the werewolf transform significantly.

    This is a good reason as to why the Ultimate countdown would begin the MOMENT you activate the transformation, which means while transforming you are losing Ultimate, thus preventing abuse. Also Devour would be modified so it does not give like 100 Ultimate per use of course. It would be balanced as need be so Ultimate gain is not that drastic. Furthermore the original cost would remain and since the Werewolf Transformation is the highest costing Ultimate in the game you wouldn't NEED to transform just to devour just to gain Ultimate just to use other Ultimates, because you already CAN use them. Sure Overload would be the exception here but as I said devour would not be that drastic lol

    Again, any way you cut it, you are literally asking for a nerf to werewolves.
  • UltimaJoe777
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    Saying L2P is is basically saying you plead the fifth here.

    No, saying L2P is basically saying, "this is a PEBKAC issue."

    Actually, there's one major, fundamental, flaw with your idea. Devour allows you refill your timer. If you switched Werewolf over to an ultimate consumer, instead of a normal ultimate, it would create a situation where you could wolf out, generate ultimate, revert, then use ANOTHER ultimate immediately. If this was intended behavior, it would stand to reason that we'd be allowed to keep the ultimate we generate while transformed, rather than resetting it on the revert. More than that, it would make devour a massive way to generate ultimate OR nerf the werewolf transform significantly.

    This is a good reason as to why the Ultimate countdown would begin the MOMENT you activate the transformation, which means while transforming you are losing Ultimate, thus preventing abuse. Also Devour would be modified so it does not give like 100 Ultimate per use of course. It would be balanced as need be so Ultimate gain is not that drastic. Furthermore the original cost would remain and since the Werewolf Transformation is the highest costing Ultimate in the game you wouldn't NEED to transform just to devour just to gain Ultimate just to use other Ultimates, because you already CAN use them. Sure Overload would be the exception here but as I said devour would not be that drastic lol

    Again, any way you cut it, you are literally asking for a nerf to werewolves.

    And how do you figure that?
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • bebynnag
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    ZakuBeta wrote: »
    Effectively you are suggesting that WW work like Overload, so it's not a bad idea in the sense that the mechanic is already there in the game, and it could be balanced against the known Overload ability.

    I think the main reason for the timer is that they don't want Werewolves walking around permanently in cities not killing anything because it wouldn't make a lick of sense. (The guards should immediately become hostile if you transform in front of them.)

    Why would you waste your ultimate in a city? Much less keep randomly using skills. If guards were to start attacking people who use attacks/skills in a civilians area, maybe there wouldn't be so much lag from the people who are constantly casting crap for no real reason. Put away those pets too, as they should also agro guards. Unless a city is combat zone, you should get into trouble for using combat skills in a city.

    but if people dont stand arround spamming moves how will everyone know they have a set of engine guardian....... DUH! ;)
  • starkerealm
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    Saying L2P is is basically saying you plead the fifth here.

    No, saying L2P is basically saying, "this is a PEBKAC issue."

    Actually, there's one major, fundamental, flaw with your idea. Devour allows you refill your timer. If you switched Werewolf over to an ultimate consumer, instead of a normal ultimate, it would create a situation where you could wolf out, generate ultimate, revert, then use ANOTHER ultimate immediately. If this was intended behavior, it would stand to reason that we'd be allowed to keep the ultimate we generate while transformed, rather than resetting it on the revert. More than that, it would make devour a massive way to generate ultimate OR nerf the werewolf transform significantly.

    This is a good reason as to why the Ultimate countdown would begin the MOMENT you activate the transformation, which means while transforming you are losing Ultimate, thus preventing abuse. Also Devour would be modified so it does not give like 100 Ultimate per use of course. It would be balanced as need be so Ultimate gain is not that drastic. Furthermore the original cost would remain and since the Werewolf Transformation is the highest costing Ultimate in the game you wouldn't NEED to transform just to devour just to gain Ultimate just to use other Ultimates, because you already CAN use them. Sure Overload would be the exception here but as I said devour would not be that drastic lol

    Again, any way you cut it, you are literally asking for a nerf to werewolves.

    And how do you figure that?

    Right now, it is possible for a werewolf to remain transformed indefinitely. I had a 90 minute transform the other day, grinding WW up to max on a newly turned character, but still. It can be extended as long as you want.

    By changing the resource to ultimate, and then forcing it to work off that resource, while allowing players to retain ultimate after shifting out, you would need to make long term transformations impossible. Off hand, the biggest possible exploit that comes to mind is overload, where you could rotate between those two ultimates as long as you wanted. Exploiting devour's massive ultimate returns.
  • UltimaJoe777
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    Saying L2P is is basically saying you plead the fifth here.

    No, saying L2P is basically saying, "this is a PEBKAC issue."

    Actually, there's one major, fundamental, flaw with your idea. Devour allows you refill your timer. If you switched Werewolf over to an ultimate consumer, instead of a normal ultimate, it would create a situation where you could wolf out, generate ultimate, revert, then use ANOTHER ultimate immediately. If this was intended behavior, it would stand to reason that we'd be allowed to keep the ultimate we generate while transformed, rather than resetting it on the revert. More than that, it would make devour a massive way to generate ultimate OR nerf the werewolf transform significantly.

    This is a good reason as to why the Ultimate countdown would begin the MOMENT you activate the transformation, which means while transforming you are losing Ultimate, thus preventing abuse. Also Devour would be modified so it does not give like 100 Ultimate per use of course. It would be balanced as need be so Ultimate gain is not that drastic. Furthermore the original cost would remain and since the Werewolf Transformation is the highest costing Ultimate in the game you wouldn't NEED to transform just to devour just to gain Ultimate just to use other Ultimates, because you already CAN use them. Sure Overload would be the exception here but as I said devour would not be that drastic lol

    Again, any way you cut it, you are literally asking for a nerf to werewolves.

    And how do you figure that?

    Right now, it is possible for a werewolf to remain transformed indefinitely. I had a 90 minute transform the other day, grinding WW up to max on a newly turned character, but still. It can be extended as long as you want.

    By changing the resource to ultimate, and then forcing it to work off that resource, while allowing players to retain ultimate after shifting out, you would need to make long term transformations impossible. Off hand, the biggest possible exploit that comes to mind is overload, where you could rotate between those two ultimates as long as you wanted. Exploiting devour's massive ultimate returns.

    Yes it is possible to maintain long periods of time as a Werewolf provided you are constantly on the go engaging in combat in places good for grinding while still rather vacant in terms of player presence. I can do it myself as well, no sweat. However, they wouldn't need to make long-term transformations impossible for various reasons indicated in the concept, namely the preservation of the transformation capability itself. Yes Overload could become an issue, especially if you run Pelinal's Aptitude, but that's only IF you can actually GAIN more Ultimate than burn through while transformed, which of course you would not be able to very easily. Werewolf Heavy Attacks would not generate Ultimate, and the passives that would generate it and reduce the consumption would be balanced to prevent any sort of abuse. In hindsight building Ultimate as a Werewolf under this concept would be no different, if not worse, than doing so with Heavy Attacks.
    Edited by UltimaJoe777 on July 9, 2016 9:53PM
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • starkerealm
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    Saying L2P is is basically saying you plead the fifth here.

    No, saying L2P is basically saying, "this is a PEBKAC issue."

    Actually, there's one major, fundamental, flaw with your idea. Devour allows you refill your timer. If you switched Werewolf over to an ultimate consumer, instead of a normal ultimate, it would create a situation where you could wolf out, generate ultimate, revert, then use ANOTHER ultimate immediately. If this was intended behavior, it would stand to reason that we'd be allowed to keep the ultimate we generate while transformed, rather than resetting it on the revert. More than that, it would make devour a massive way to generate ultimate OR nerf the werewolf transform significantly.

    This is a good reason as to why the Ultimate countdown would begin the MOMENT you activate the transformation, which means while transforming you are losing Ultimate, thus preventing abuse. Also Devour would be modified so it does not give like 100 Ultimate per use of course. It would be balanced as need be so Ultimate gain is not that drastic. Furthermore the original cost would remain and since the Werewolf Transformation is the highest costing Ultimate in the game you wouldn't NEED to transform just to devour just to gain Ultimate just to use other Ultimates, because you already CAN use them. Sure Overload would be the exception here but as I said devour would not be that drastic lol

    Again, any way you cut it, you are literally asking for a nerf to werewolves.

    And how do you figure that?

    Right now, it is possible for a werewolf to remain transformed indefinitely. I had a 90 minute transform the other day, grinding WW up to max on a newly turned character, but still. It can be extended as long as you want.

    By changing the resource to ultimate, and then forcing it to work off that resource, while allowing players to retain ultimate after shifting out, you would need to make long term transformations impossible. Off hand, the biggest possible exploit that comes to mind is overload, where you could rotate between those two ultimates as long as you wanted. Exploiting devour's massive ultimate returns.

    Yes it is possible to maintain long periods of time as a Werewolf provided you are constantly on the go engaging in combat in places good for grinding while still rather vacant in terms of player presence. I can do it myself as well, no sweat. However, they wouldn't need to make long-term transformations impossible for various reasons indicated in the concept, namely the preservation of the transformation capability itself. Yes Overload could become an issue, especially if you run Pelinal's Aptitude, but that's only IF you can actually GAIN more Ultimate than burn through while transformed, which of course you would not be able to very easily. Werewolf Heavy Attacks would not generate Ultimate, and the passives that would generate it and reduce the consumption would be balanced to prevent any sort of abuse. In hindsight building Ultimate as a Werewolf under this concept would be no different, if not worse, than doing so with Heavy Attacks.

    And that would be a nerf. Because, as you said yourself, it's not hard to maintain a transform indefinitely now. In order to balance these things, you'd need to make it more difficult to maintain the transform.
  • IcyDeadPeople
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    Effectively you are suggesting that WW work like Overload, so it's not a bad idea in the sense that the mechanic is already there in the game, and it could be balanced against the known Overload ability.

    I think the main reason for the timer is that they don't want Werewolves walking around permanently in cities not killing anything because it wouldn't make a lick of sense. (The guards should immediately become hostile if you transform in front of them.)

    Also, it's a little weird that you can carry on a conversation while wolfed out, but you cannot intimidate people as one...

    You also cannot cook because "your paws are clumsy" :p

    Silver Chef is silver.

    Ok so here's what I think: Why not remove the existing timer when transformed and instead replace it with your Ultimate count? Basically when you transform your Ultimate starts depleting while transformed and the usual means of keeping your WW timer filled go towards Ultimate instead. Naturally Light and Heavy Attacks would still not grant Ultimate while transformed but forcing your transformation to end would serve to preserve your Ultimate for later use (like with Overload).

    Thoughts?

    I don't get it - do you feel something is not working well with werewolf as it currently is?

    Just recently started playing werewolf form for the first time since ESO launch and it's a lot of fun, feels quite powerful in PVE as well as PVP.

    It wasn't hard to stay in werewolf form.

    Werewolf is fine beyond one tiny problem: How much you have to do to have it ready, only to barely use it in a Delve unless you stay there for hours. If the transformation were truly a toggle then you could revert to normal to preserve ultimate THEN change maps and have your Werewolf form ready immediately instead of having to go regain 300 Ultimate (or less depending on class and gear, but still...) to be able to transform again. Compared to Vampires, Werewolf capability is used far less than half the time for reasons like this. Furthermore, World Boss fights practically REQUIRE you throw yourself in harms way and go out of your way to devour ads just to maintain the form. This actually got my Werewolf killed for his very first time in Werewolf form because I didn't want to lose the transformation. Furthermore you must stay in combat CONSTANTLY to maintain the form. Only by being in a group with 3+ other Werewolves can you minimize some of the problem, but not all of them.

    In short Werewolf has 2 sustainability problems:
    1. Has nothing to maintain the form when not in combat too much, thus wasting the transformation and/or forcing you to constantly seek combat, which isn't always doable and depending on how long it takes to find more may not help anyway.
    2. World Bosses without ads are NOT Werewolf friendly, and neither are Dolmens where corpses do not linger beyond the Worm Cultists and final Daedra.

    It's a lot of fun to play and of course I'm always in favor of making it easier to remain in this form.

    However, so far the only occasions where I find the timer running out is if I die in Cyrodiil, respawn at a keep and quickly try to run out of the keep and find another corpse to eat somewhere.

    In delves, PVE areas and even Imperial City, it seems relatively easy to stay in the form without being in any group, as long as you keep quickly killing stuff and eating all the corpses.
  • UltimaJoe777
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    Saying L2P is is basically saying you plead the fifth here.

    No, saying L2P is basically saying, "this is a PEBKAC issue."

    Actually, there's one major, fundamental, flaw with your idea. Devour allows you refill your timer. If you switched Werewolf over to an ultimate consumer, instead of a normal ultimate, it would create a situation where you could wolf out, generate ultimate, revert, then use ANOTHER ultimate immediately. If this was intended behavior, it would stand to reason that we'd be allowed to keep the ultimate we generate while transformed, rather than resetting it on the revert. More than that, it would make devour a massive way to generate ultimate OR nerf the werewolf transform significantly.

    This is a good reason as to why the Ultimate countdown would begin the MOMENT you activate the transformation, which means while transforming you are losing Ultimate, thus preventing abuse. Also Devour would be modified so it does not give like 100 Ultimate per use of course. It would be balanced as need be so Ultimate gain is not that drastic. Furthermore the original cost would remain and since the Werewolf Transformation is the highest costing Ultimate in the game you wouldn't NEED to transform just to devour just to gain Ultimate just to use other Ultimates, because you already CAN use them. Sure Overload would be the exception here but as I said devour would not be that drastic lol

    Again, any way you cut it, you are literally asking for a nerf to werewolves.

    And how do you figure that?

    Right now, it is possible for a werewolf to remain transformed indefinitely. I had a 90 minute transform the other day, grinding WW up to max on a newly turned character, but still. It can be extended as long as you want.

    By changing the resource to ultimate, and then forcing it to work off that resource, while allowing players to retain ultimate after shifting out, you would need to make long term transformations impossible. Off hand, the biggest possible exploit that comes to mind is overload, where you could rotate between those two ultimates as long as you wanted. Exploiting devour's massive ultimate returns.

    Yes it is possible to maintain long periods of time as a Werewolf provided you are constantly on the go engaging in combat in places good for grinding while still rather vacant in terms of player presence. I can do it myself as well, no sweat. However, they wouldn't need to make long-term transformations impossible for various reasons indicated in the concept, namely the preservation of the transformation capability itself. Yes Overload could become an issue, especially if you run Pelinal's Aptitude, but that's only IF you can actually GAIN more Ultimate than burn through while transformed, which of course you would not be able to very easily. Werewolf Heavy Attacks would not generate Ultimate, and the passives that would generate it and reduce the consumption would be balanced to prevent any sort of abuse. In hindsight building Ultimate as a Werewolf under this concept would be no different, if not worse, than doing so with Heavy Attacks.

    And that would be a nerf. Because, as you said yourself, it's not hard to maintain a transform indefinitely now. In order to balance these things, you'd need to make it more difficult to maintain the transform.

    How is it a nerf though? You still maintain your form as much as you did when it was a seperate timer only you can preserve it better and re-transform more often.
    Effectively you are suggesting that WW work like Overload, so it's not a bad idea in the sense that the mechanic is already there in the game, and it could be balanced against the known Overload ability.

    I think the main reason for the timer is that they don't want Werewolves walking around permanently in cities not killing anything because it wouldn't make a lick of sense. (The guards should immediately become hostile if you transform in front of them.)

    Also, it's a little weird that you can carry on a conversation while wolfed out, but you cannot intimidate people as one...

    You also cannot cook because "your paws are clumsy" :p

    Silver Chef is silver.

    Ok so here's what I think: Why not remove the existing timer when transformed and instead replace it with your Ultimate count? Basically when you transform your Ultimate starts depleting while transformed and the usual means of keeping your WW timer filled go towards Ultimate instead. Naturally Light and Heavy Attacks would still not grant Ultimate while transformed but forcing your transformation to end would serve to preserve your Ultimate for later use (like with Overload).

    Thoughts?

    I don't get it - do you feel something is not working well with werewolf as it currently is?

    Just recently started playing werewolf form for the first time since ESO launch and it's a lot of fun, feels quite powerful in PVE as well as PVP.

    It wasn't hard to stay in werewolf form.

    Werewolf is fine beyond one tiny problem: How much you have to do to have it ready, only to barely use it in a Delve unless you stay there for hours. If the transformation were truly a toggle then you could revert to normal to preserve ultimate THEN change maps and have your Werewolf form ready immediately instead of having to go regain 300 Ultimate (or less depending on class and gear, but still...) to be able to transform again. Compared to Vampires, Werewolf capability is used far less than half the time for reasons like this. Furthermore, World Boss fights practically REQUIRE you throw yourself in harms way and go out of your way to devour ads just to maintain the form. This actually got my Werewolf killed for his very first time in Werewolf form because I didn't want to lose the transformation. Furthermore you must stay in combat CONSTANTLY to maintain the form. Only by being in a group with 3+ other Werewolves can you minimize some of the problem, but not all of them.

    In short Werewolf has 2 sustainability problems:
    1. Has nothing to maintain the form when not in combat too much, thus wasting the transformation and/or forcing you to constantly seek combat, which isn't always doable and depending on how long it takes to find more may not help anyway.
    2. World Bosses without ads are NOT Werewolf friendly, and neither are Dolmens where corpses do not linger beyond the Worm Cultists and final Daedra.

    It's a lot of fun to play and of course I'm always in favor of making it easier to remain in this form.

    However, so far the only occasions where I find the timer running out is if I die in Cyrodiil, respawn at a keep and quickly try to run out of the keep and find another corpse to eat somewhere.

    In delves, PVE areas and even Imperial City, it seems relatively easy to stay in the form without being in any group, as long as you keep quickly killing stuff and eating all the corpses.

    Yeah the only real killer of Werewolf form in PvE is map changing. Even if you have a full timer and the shortest loading screen ever the simple map change cancels your transformation.
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • starkerealm
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    How is it a nerf though? You still maintain your form as much as you did when it was a seperate timer only you can preserve it better and re-transform more often.

    If nothing was changed, it would necessitate a nerf.

    Okay, since you play on consoles, here's some information you might not be privy to. Ultimate stacks to 1,000. You can have 1k ultimate points at any given moment. Werewolf consumes a fraction of that. I forget the exact number, somewhere around 250 or 300.

    You can recover your transform faster than you consume it. Even without the revision to the final passive, so the depletion time is reduced by 20%, you can regenerate your transform faster than you'll burn through it.

    This means, with your system, you could transform when you have enough to, use devour, the pounce morph, and other means to generate far more ultimate than you're using.

    So, you either need to make it more difficult to remain transformed. Which is a nerf. Or risk a serious imbalance with ultimates like overload.

    I'm sorry, but this idea is a dead start.
  • UltimaJoe777
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    How is it a nerf though? You still maintain your form as much as you did when it was a seperate timer only you can preserve it better and re-transform more often.

    If nothing was changed, it would necessitate a nerf.

    Okay, since you play on consoles, here's some information you might not be privy to. Ultimate stacks to 1,000. You can have 1k ultimate points at any given moment. Werewolf consumes a fraction of that. I forget the exact number, somewhere around 250 or 300.

    You can recover your transform faster than you consume it. Even without the revision to the final passive, so the depletion time is reduced by 20%, you can regenerate your transform faster than you'll burn through it.

    This means, with your system, you could transform when you have enough to, use devour, the pounce morph, and other means to generate far more ultimate than you're using.

    So, you either need to make it more difficult to remain transformed. Which is a nerf. Or risk a serious imbalance with ultimates like overload.

    I'm sorry, but this idea is a dead start.

    Since I play on consoles allow me to enlighten you: DB gave us the ability to have health count AND % display AS WELL AS Ultimate count display. And to address your belittlement I have been well aware the cap is 1000 for several months at least. Yes though a morphed Werewolf Transformation with no outside means of reduction costs 300 Ultimate.

    My system would not be so foolish as to allow more Ultimate gain than usage. With the proper passives you would be able to maintain your transformation the same as you would now. The ONLY way you could POSSIBLY gain more Ultimate than you normally would is by making use of Call of the Pack and reducing depletion by 80% with 4 Werewolves grouped up. Now they could keep that if they run my idea, or change it back or to something else so it's not possible to either abuse that effect OR nerf this to the ground. The concept is just that: a concept. If Zenimax applied my concept they would tweak Werewolf so there is balance. Based on their track record needless to say it won't be perfect at first but after some additional tweaking it would balance out. This concept is not as dead a start as you think.
    Edited by UltimaJoe777 on July 9, 2016 10:33PM
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    Since I play on consoles allow me to enlighten you: DB gave us the ability to have health count AND % display AS WELL AS Ultimate count display.

    I'm aware. The same UI update came to PC a couple weeks earlier, remember.
    And to address your belittlement I have been well aware the cap is 1000 for several months at least.

    No belittlement necessary. I've known about the 1k cap since 2014. It's entirely reasonable to assume you'd never gone into your options menu and learned that this was an option. Much like many people still don't realize you can turn off helmets or auto loot anything you interact with.
    Yes though a morphed Werewolf Transformation with no outside means of reduction costs 300 Ultimate.

    Used to be 750.
    My system would not be so foolish as to allow more Ultimate gain than usage.

    Then that's a nerf.

    Right now, if you get down to 20% remaining on the bar, you can come back from that.
    With the proper passives you would be able to maintain your transformation the same as you would now. The ONLY way you could POSSIBLY gain more Ultimate than you normally would is by making use of Call of the Pack and reducing depletion by 80% with 4 Werewolves grouped up.

    Sorc

    Akaviri Dragon Guard

    Believe it or not, there are reasons why I know, off the top of my head, how it used to be possible to get Batswarm's ultimate cost down to about 8 ultimate.

    I realize you're a console player, but there are very real reasons you do not want more ultimates working off a system like overload. The most egregious abuses got fixed. But this would still be hilariously problematic. And the sad part, legitimately sad, is, I've seen most of those exploited. I've been here longer. I know where this road leads. Werewolves would get seriously nerfed to make your dream a reality. Hell, they'd get seriously nerfed by your dream. And then again after the fact.

    I'd love for there to be a freeze on the timer while you're zoning, and until you've loaded in on the other end, but I understand why that's not there. As in the system reason why it's not viable, because I've seen what happens when you can do that and the system breaks.
  • UltimaJoe777
    UltimaJoe777
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    Since I play on consoles allow me to enlighten you: DB gave us the ability to have health count AND % display AS WELL AS Ultimate count display.

    I'm aware. The same UI update came to PC a couple weeks earlier, remember.
    And to address your belittlement I have been well aware the cap is 1000 for several months at least.

    No belittlement necessary. I've known about the 1k cap since 2014. It's entirely reasonable to assume you'd never gone into your options menu and learned that this was an option. Much like many people still don't realize you can turn off helmets or auto loot anything you interact with.
    Yes though a morphed Werewolf Transformation with no outside means of reduction costs 300 Ultimate.

    Used to be 750.
    My system would not be so foolish as to allow more Ultimate gain than usage.

    Then that's a nerf.

    Right now, if you get down to 20% remaining on the bar, you can come back from that.
    With the proper passives you would be able to maintain your transformation the same as you would now. The ONLY way you could POSSIBLY gain more Ultimate than you normally would is by making use of Call of the Pack and reducing depletion by 80% with 4 Werewolves grouped up.

    Sorc

    Akaviri Dragon Guard

    Believe it or not, there are reasons why I know, off the top of my head, how it used to be possible to get Batswarm's ultimate cost down to about 8 ultimate.

    I realize you're a console player, but there are very real reasons you do not want more ultimates working off a system like overload. The most egregious abuses got fixed. But this would still be hilariously problematic. And the sad part, legitimately sad, is, I've seen most of those exploited. I've been here longer. I know where this road leads. Werewolves would get seriously nerfed to make your dream a reality. Hell, they'd get seriously nerfed by your dream. And then again after the fact.

    I'd love for there to be a freeze on the timer while you're zoning, and until you've loaded in on the other end, but I understand why that's not there. As in the system reason why it's not viable, because I've seen what happens when you can do that and the system breaks.

    Assumptions can belittle, just a heads up there. Would've been more reasonable to ASK if I was aware of the cap rather than assume I wasn't. As for the rest of what you say believe what you want but regardless the fact of the matter is Vampire capability is pretty much infinite whereas Werewolves are momentary, and this tends to make people in the meta prefer Vampirism. This also presents a problem to roleplayers wanting to be Werewolves anywhere but the shrine. I seek to make Werewolf form more available is all, and it can be done one way or another. Even if my concept is not approved by Zenimax it still lets them know it is sought for. Believe what you will about my concept being more harmful than helpful as it is obvious you are dead set on believing it is a bad idea but overall it is more beneficial, especially if the cards are played right. I could go on, but there's no point with your mind as set as it is so we will leave it at this and move on. Agree to disagree, if you will.
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    Assumptions can belittle, just a heads up there. Would've been more reasonable to ASK if I was aware of the cap rather than assume I wasn't.

    I could have, and it would have taken three posts to get back to where we were two posts ago.
    As for the rest of what you say believe what you want but regardless the fact of the matter is Vampire capability is pretty much infinite whereas Werewolves are momentary, and this tends to make people in the meta prefer Vampirism.

    The problem was actually vampires spamming batswarm and getting hilarious heals off it. You can dig up the videos on youtube if you're really curious.
    This also presents a problem to roleplayers wanting to be Werewolves anywhere but the shrine. I seek to make Werewolf form more available is all, and it can be done one way or another. Even if my concept is not approved by Zenimax it still lets them know it is sought for.

    Believe me, they know. There have been many discussions on these boards about ways to extend the transform, or give roleplayers more options to wolf out. The suggestions of cosmetic transforms... which, we're actually probably going to get a werewolf costume in October.

    There have even been people, myself included, begging for the transform to simply, flat out, be a toggle. And having experienced a bugged transformation back in 2014, I can say, being a wolf without a timer is a lot of fun. I just don't think that this is the solution for that.
    Believe what you will about my concept being more harmful than helpful as it is obvious you are dead set on believing it is a bad idea but overall it is more beneficial, especially if the cards are played right. I could go on, but there's no point with your mind as set as it is so we will leave it at this and move on. Agree to disagree, if you will.

    It's specifically to do with the use of ultimates as the timer. Ironically if you'd said it should work exactly like overload, with it depleting with each attack, not ticking down over time, and converting devour into something completely unrelated. I'd actually be all for that. It's not a bad idea per say. But, this specific setup, an ultimate fueled timer just isn't viable as an option.
    Edited by starkerealm on July 9, 2016 11:05PM
  • UltimaJoe777
    UltimaJoe777
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    Assumptions can belittle, just a heads up there. Would've been more reasonable to ASK if I was aware of the cap rather than assume I wasn't.

    I could have, and it would have taken three posts to get back to where we were two posts ago.
    As for the rest of what you say believe what you want but regardless the fact of the matter is Vampire capability is pretty much infinite whereas Werewolves are momentary, and this tends to make people in the meta prefer Vampirism.

    The problem was actually vampires spamming batswarm and getting hilarious heals off it. You can dig up the videos on youtube if you're really curious.
    This also presents a problem to roleplayers wanting to be Werewolves anywhere but the shrine. I seek to make Werewolf form more available is all, and it can be done one way or another. Even if my concept is not approved by Zenimax it still lets them know it is sought for.

    Believe me, they know. There have been many discussions on these boards about ways to extend the transform, or give roleplayers more options to wolf out. The suggestions of cosmetic transforms... which, we're actually probably going to get a werewolf costume in October.

    There have even been people, myself included, begging for the transform to simply, flat out, be a toggle. And having experienced a bugged transformation back in 2014, I can say, being a wolf without a timer is a lot of fun. I just don't think that this is the solution for that.
    Believe what you will about my concept being more harmful than helpful as it is obvious you are dead set on believing it is a bad idea but overall it is more beneficial, especially if the cards are played right. I could go on, but there's no point with your mind as set as it is so we will leave it at this and move on. Agree to disagree, if you will.

    It's specifically to do with the use of ultimates as the timer. Ironically if you'd said it should work exactly like overload, with it depleting with each attack, not ticking down over time, and converting devour into something completely unrelated. I'd actually be all for that. It's not a bad idea per say. But, this specific setup, an ultimate fueled timer just isn't viable as an option.

    I can understand your perspective on Werewolf attacks being all that depletes the Ultimate count, but that would only raise further issues with how you maintain Ultimate in Werewolf form, and cause controversy with Overload. The absolute best thing we could ever hope for is the transformation NOT require an Ultimate to do it, but we both know that will never happen lol
    Edited by UltimaJoe777 on July 10, 2016 12:24AM
    Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
    Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy
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