Will the Mac client be updated to use the Metal API

Niastissa

Since Apple is moving away from Open GL and o their Metal API I was wondering what the plans are for support of it in ESO.

KhajitFurTrader

Unlikely for the near- to mid-term future, but not impossible long-term. Since the recent switch to OpenGL 4.1 on the Mac 64-bit client, OpenGL support on Windows seems to have been dropped for good; I don't know how much code is shared between OS X and PS4 branches, if any, but platform interdependency has decreased with that step.

Still, going full Metal means yet another rewrite of the rendering engine, while it just had one very recently. So I doubt that we'll see Metal anytime soon, as long as Apple supports OpenGL for backward compatibility reasons, i.e., for a long time coming.

Niastissa

Are we sure Apple is going to continue to support Open GL? What if they drop it in favor of their own? Would we be able to reinstall Open GL manually like Java?

KhajitFurTrader

Alright, I'm curious. Where does it say that Apple is going drop support for the OpenGL API completely? Do you have any reliable sources that you can link?

All I have seen is pure, if educated, speculation: while it's true that there is a backlog of bringing OpenGL up to par in OS X -- 10.11 still supports only OGL 4.1 feature levels, which were finalized in 2010, with some 4.2 extensions -- it could be an indication that internal components and higher-level APIs like Quartz/Core Graphics are going to increasingly rely on Metal to handle the lower-end of things. If I remember correctly, this is already the case with the Core Graphics/Core Animation APIs on iOS 8 and up, i.e, if an App calls these, it's already using Metal -- OTOH, if it's using OpenGL ES calls, it's not.

Dropping APIs is never done rashly -- just like when back in 2005 (Intel transition), support for Carbon was announced to be faded out, in favor for Cocoa. Carbon has finally been deprecated in 2012, but it's still there: it doesn't get updated anymore, but binaries that are linked against it will still run, even today on current versions of OS X.

If OpenGL ever goes the way of the Dodo on future macOS versions in favor for Core Graphics/Metal, there will be ample time for developers to rewrite their code; it just won't happen anytime soon.

Niastissa

I'm not saying they will right away. I'm not even saying they will.

However Apple has a tendency to kill off legacy support in new versions of their OS X operating system.

I'm simply asking is work being done on Metal in beta or alphas or has no work been done with it? I'm just trying to gauge if in the next few years I'll still be able to play the game on my Mac without having to use bootcamp if Apple where to pull the plug.

Modifying a engine to run a new API isn't going to be something done quickly so I'm just hoping that ZOS isn't going to get caught with their pants down.

I'm not trying to offend you or anything. I'm asking a serious question. I didn't realize the APIs can shift between metal and open GL dynamically. That is cool and makes me feel better.

I ask only because of talk in the WOW forums about it going to Metal and it made me worry about being able to play this game.

KhajitFurTrader

Niastissa wrote: »

I'm simply asking is work being done on Metal in beta or alphas or has no work been done with it?

You mean specific to ESO's code? It's impossible to tell as an outsider. My guess would be no, not yet, and not for the foreseeable future, because it would be uneconomic from a project management point of view to do so. The engine has just been rewritten to support OpenGL 4.1, there are plenty of bugs to fix, optimizations to be found and tested, and general kinks to be ironed out. So I'm sure the Mac developers have their hands full of work. I guess Metal is on their radar somewhere, there's just no (urgent) need to act on it yet, because there will be sufficient time anyway.

Niastissa wrote: »

I'm just trying to gauge if in the next few years I'll still be able to play the game on my Mac without having to use bootcamp if Apple where to pull the plug.

Modifying a engine to run a new API isn't going to be something done quickly so I'm just hoping that ZOS isn't going to get caught with their pants down.

MMOs are extremely long-lived games, so their need to move with the times (i.e., newer tech) is almost a given. As long as ZOS is committed to support the OS X/macOS platform, the game's code will be adapted to support newer APIs as old ones are faded out of use. But, as I have said above, this will be done over the space of years. There hasn't been a deprecation notice for OpenGL from Apple yet, and when it eventually arrives (say, within the next 10 years), that doesn't mean that applications using OGL will stop working overnight. As in the case of Carbon, APIs do survive for very long times for compatibility reasons, even if active development with them has long been discouraged.

Take the case of WoW, back in 2004 when it was first released, the client was a 32-bit PowerPC binary on the Mac. Now, I don't know whether it was a Cocoa app from the get-go, but even if so, there was plenty of work to be done on its code when Apple announced the switch to Intel CPUs, and eventually dropped support for PowerPC binaries in OS X 10.7 Lion (released 2012, 7 years after the Intel announcement). As slow as things move in information technology, no-one is going to be caught with their pants down, unless they wanted to (the "Suddenly it's Christmas" syndrome ).

JJBoomer

I have a really noob tech like question. how does one get a new api? do they just come in OS updates? or is it related to hardware? My mac uses the OpenGL, so when metal comes, will I have to get a bran new computer or will meral come in an update or something?

Niastissa

JJBoomer wrote: »

I have a really noob tech like question. how does one get a new api? do they just come in OS updates? or is it related to hardware? My mac uses the OpenGL, so when metal comes, will I have to get a bran new computer or will meral come in an update or something?

It is part of the operating system in terms of Open GL 4.1 and Metal they come in OS X 10.11.

KhajitFurTrader

Niastissa wrote: »

It is part of the operating system in terms of Open GL 4.1 and Metal they come in OS X 10.11.

More specifically, support for OpenGL 4.1 feature levels was introduced in OS X 10.9 Mavericks, and if the Ars Technica article I've linked to in my post above is correct, the API hasn't been upgraded to newer OpenGL versions throughout 10.10 Yosemite and 10.11 El Capitan, respectively. You are correct in assuming that this could be taken as a sign that development on improving existing, or implementing newer OpenGL feature levels has been put on the back burner (a "feature freeze") in favor for further development of Metal. It just doesn't mean that the OpenGL API in OS X/macOS will be dropped completely anytime soon.

The Metal API itself is a "port" over from iOS, where it will replace the OpenGL ES API eventually. On OS X, it first appeared in 10.11 El Capitan. Preliminary hardware requirements for Metal regarding dedicated graphics chips and integrated processor graphics have been guessed at. So as long as you own a machine that is mentioned there, @JJBoomer, your Mac should be able to support applications that rely solely on Metal for their graphics rendering. To my knowledge, there aren't any yet, but this will certainly change in time.

Niastissa

World Of Warcraft will be using Metal in the live client in the next 60 days. That is the first game I know of that will begin using Metal.

KhajitFurTrader

Niastissa wrote: »

World Of Warcraft will be using Metal in the live client in the next 60 days. That is the first game I know of that will begin using Metal.

Wow, that's cool. WoW isn't on my radar anymore as much as it used to be. Here's to hoping that the switch will bring back decent anti-aliasing options for the Mac client's rendering engine -- the graphics changes that came with WoD in this regard had been suboptimal, to say the least.

Niastissa

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Niastissa wrote: »

World Of Warcraft will be using Metal in the live client in the next 60 days. That is the first game I know of that will begin using Metal.

Wow, that's cool. WoW isn't on my radar anymore as much as it used to be. Here's to hoping that the switch will bring back decent anti-aliasing options for the Mac client's rendering engine -- the graphics changes that came with WoD in this regard had been suboptimal, to say the least.

I started playing it again a little over two weeks ago. It's like playing a cartoon on my late 2015 iMac 5K with the 395X. However in terms of frame rate I have to pick between low resolution and blurry with high settings or high resolution with low settings. I found a compromise somewhere in between.

I'm hoping Metal will improve things as people are reporting from the PTR.

At 5K with a 50% render scale the image isn't too jagged in Open GL. It looks better then running the game at 1440P. I still can't set all of the settings which equates to basic lighting and shadows primarily which are the easiest things to sacrifice in a cartoon styled designed look.

henrycupcakerwb17_ESO

Niastissa wrote: »

World Of Warcraft will be using Metal in the live client in the next 60 days. That is the first game I know of that will begin using Metal.

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Niastissa wrote: »

World Of Warcraft will be using Metal in the live client in the next 60 days. That is the first game I know of that will begin using Metal.

Wow, that's cool. WoW isn't on my radar anymore as much as it used to be. Here's to hoping that the switch will bring back decent anti-aliasing options for the Mac client's rendering engine -- the graphics changes that came with WoD in this regard had been suboptimal, to say the least.

All blizzard game like heroes of the storm are already doing internal test to switch to metal API as the graphical render
I wonder why they dont release overwatch for Mac tho, its an insult
But apple is the one to blame of keeping their vague stance regarding to gaming, jeez, what were they thinking?
At least give the options for the customers to opt for the work station orentied GPU or a high end GPU for gaming

Not to mention they haven't been updated the Mac Pro for 3 Fing years!, I would have still buy it( all the games will run fine and I just need my desktop to look cool anyway) but they have stopped production on the Thunderbolt Display recently so I guess somelong overdue update are coming

Aenvar

I tested Metal on WoW today and sadly I must say that the results aren't good, at least in my case less fps, worse performance and lots of hanging and crashing.

On the forums many people complain of the same issues, some can't even start the game. This after months of beta testing... I can understand it though. There have been improvements and I think Blizzard is working hard to make it better but it still needs a lot of work.

Really wish Metal came to ESO too but in that state I'd just stick with OpenGL.

Niastissa

I'll hop on and check and see how it runs on my Mac.

Achernar

I'm having a very different experience with WoW and Metal than Aenvar. On my iMac with m395 (no x) graphics, Metal API is giving me 30-40% faster frame rates than Open GL depending on the location. I didn't notice any visual differences between the two APIs. Also, running at 5k resolution with 50% render scale seems like a great solution for retina displays. The UI is super sharp while the rendering of the world looks good (if not as great as 5k of course).

Amazingly, WoW in Windows 10 under Bootcamp is actually 10-20% slower than on Mac with Metal at the same settings, which really surprised me. So for me at least, Metal is an amazing boost for WoW. I really hope ESO will go the same route. Right now ESO frame rates are a lot higher in Bootcamp than and the Mac side, which I hate, as it makes me boot into Windows.

Niastissa

I concur WOW looks to be running well on Metal. It isn't perfect but 50% of the render buffer of 5K is still better then 1440P. My Late 2015 iMac with the Core i7 and 395X manages 55% with the rest of the settings at the default settings at about 48 to 58 FPS.

I'd like to see higher graphic settings but that is the price we pay for being stuck with mobile chips. It's very playable though.

Aenvar

As of July 24th, the client has been patched and is also working great for me. Such a great relief!

ferhestr

But no response till now?

ferhestr

Thanks for post out the thread discussing the topic KhajitFurTrader

Hi ZOS
Any update about this topic
Many thanks in advance

nCats

Hello,

bump --- what about update?

rampoob16_ESO

Now with High Sierra Metal 2 is on the way, Update possible?

SirAndy

rampoob16_ESO wrote: »

... Metal ... is on the way ...

demerdecanswrath

Any news?

Update 17 in early 2018 will move to a 64-bit client only and it is rumored to bring Vulkan API support for Windows. Could this mean anything for us Mac users?

I play on integrated graphics (Intel Iris) and most Metal games - including WoW - can go up to medium settings, 40-50fps on a 2560x1080 display. ESO lags far behind, as I'm playing with the lowest possible settings and I average at 25fps.

Please ZoS, we need proper Metal 2 support!

KhajitFurTrader

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

Update 17 in early 2018 will move to a 64-bit client only and it is rumored to bring Vulkan API support for Windows. Could this mean anything for us Mac users?

The Mac client binary is already 64-bit exclusively, and has been ever since version 2.3.0 (Thieves Guild DLC). Alas, the Vulkan API, while it's been initially hailed as a low(er)-overhead successor to OpenGL by AMD, was not endorsed by Apple. Meaning that any development work that goes into Vulkan does and will not benefit the Mac platform. A Metal (2) rendering engine will have to be developed more or less from scratch, which means "countless" man-hours put into development, testing, and debugging.

Whenever ZOS is confident enough to announce commitment to such endeavour, they will do so -- that I'm sure of. But unless it's stated explicitly, I won't get my hopes up.

jahkirb16_ESO

Please ZOS, in this case, can you please atleast comment somthing on this? Have you atleast thought about metal API Support?

Thank you

henrycupcakerwb17_ESO

Lol almost all the game are running on Apple metal 2 graphical renderer yet zenimax refuse to do so