question for lore nerds regarding elder scrolls lore

Aliyavana

hello all,

I wanted to ask you guys questions regarding the lore of the game as I am interested in learning more about elder scrolls lore. I have been an elder scrolls fan since morrowind and hope to expand my knowledge within this universe

. How long has the three banner war lasted to the present?

. What is the chronology of the dlc? like are the db and thieves guild after the main quest? is imperial city before or after the main quest?

. How long have the dwemer been missing up to this time and then to skyrim?

. Was altmer vurnability to magic retconned?

. Does the green pact apply to only bosmer born within valenwood? plants from valenwood?

. The events of cadwells gold and silver, is your character at 3 places at once actually helping out with the other factions?

. Which faction achieves their goals the most after the three banner war and which one fails the most at their objectives (ex: argonians being enslaved by their former allies again)

Enodoc

• Three Banners War duration, as of 2E 582: At most, two years, but it may be a bit less.
• DLC Chronology: As released. IC takes place after the end of the Main Quest, and each successive DLC takes place after that. In-game books suggest that we have now entered 2E 583.
• The Dwemer: The Disappearance of the Dwemer occurred in 1E 700, which was (2920-700)+582= 2802 years ago. Skyrim takes place in 4E 201, which is (896-582)+433+201= 948 years from now. Thus the disappearance of the Dwemer occurred 3750 years before Skyrim.
• Racial Traits: These have never been constant. The Altmer had no weakness to magicka in Oblivion either (only a weakness to elemental effects), and no weaknesses at all in Skyrim.
• Green Pact: Lore-wise, it would theoretically apply to any Bosmer, but there are a number who don't follow it. It only applies to "the Green", ie, the forest and plant life of Valenwood.
• Cadwell's Almanac: Theoretically, Cadwell's Almanac presents a "what if" situation. As @Abeille says, it's a bit like a Spinner's story; the actions you do there are remembered by those you meet later, even if it's not part of your primary timeline. (One Tamriel will need to retcon this, since you'll be able to access all the zones immediately.)
• Faction Goals: Considering none of the factions exist by 2E 896, I would suggest that none of them achieved their goals. DC never managed to reclaim the glory of the Second Empire, EP never managed to continue looking out for each other's interests, and AD never managed to bring Tamriel under elven rule.

Abeille

@Enodoc, just adding that Tiber Septim conquers the Aldmeri Dominion on 2E 896, but that's the SECOND Aldmeri Dominion, it is not Ayrenn's Aldmeri Dominion. Just adding this because some people might be confused because there were will be a total of three Aldmeri Dominions from now to the next 1000 years.

And if I push my "Spinner's Story" theory enough, maybe it will eventually be canon! That's how MK fans work, right? :P
But really, what One Tamriel could do is to keep the crystals in the harborages. Give an objective right from out of the tutorial, "OPTIONAL: Go to the harborage and touch the crystal to begin a different story!". Then, touching the crystal, you are presented two options: "Start the [silver alliance] story" and "Start the [gold alliance] story". No voice action needed, just text, and I would be satisfied.

Aliyavana

So the cadwell storylines happen on there own? they are simply a what if situation where you don't actually time travel? feels a bit weird to take weapons and armor and gold from said visions but that's can be shrugged off as game mechanics. also next question, what is meridias relation to the aedric gods? she is a god that hates the undead and is seen as one of the good daedric gods, but it is to my understanding that the aedra and daedra are not in good terms, as seen by the follower of stendarr being suspicious of the guildmaster who is a follower of meridian if I remember correctly. so aedric and daedric relation wise, is meridia one who does or doesn't get along with the aedra?

notimetocare

Alliance war, At least two years, likely longer. I highly disagree with Enodoc on this one. With the creation of the Dominion in 580, I have seen no other indication that the war starts in 582. Source on UESP leads to a ESO website with nothing defining it specifically. It is listed as 582 simply because that it the launch year of the game, it is clear th at the war has started in earnest before the PC enters the war and it is unclear how long. As to the maximum, for RP players it is currently 584. The majority of lore nerds for TES tend to be the RPers. As the game is still going, and players consider the timeline to keep running, it is safe to presume that the war has not ended until a date is given (most lore with nothing given is assumed based on what we have available). Suffice to say, a war for the throne at the heart of an Empire is not likely to be won easily.

What alliance is successful is undefined by lore. However it is safe to say that None will in the long run.

Chronology: The use of ingame books for chronology is not very effective due to two factors. 1) ZoS pushes DLC terribly. 2) Publish date/diary dates are of times past, but we have no real indication of what. For lore, it is safest to run day by date if, like most people for lore, you tend towards using it for RP purposes.

Green Pact is specific to The Green, or Valenwood. Bosmer outside of Valenwood may not even have the slightest idea of the GreenPact. Belief systems are carried out socially, not biologically.

Cadwells... Well it is best not to count Cadwells as lore, really. It is a game mechanic.

Racial traits, as seen in games tend to be mechanics. Check out racial description on UESP for a better understanding of what lore appropriate racial traits are (overall, not game specific)

Enodoc

Abeille wrote: »

@Enodoc, just adding that Tiber Septim conquers the Aldmeri Dominion on 2E 896, but that's the SECOND Aldmeri Dominion, it is not Ayrenn's Aldmeri Dominion. Just adding this because some people might be confused because there were will be a total of three Aldmeri Dominions from now to the next 1000 years.

Sure, which means Ayrenn's Dominion is distant history even by 2E 830. But I think it's quite likely that none of the alliances survive beyond the death of their leaders.

And if I push my "Spinner's Story" theory enough, maybe it will eventually be canon! That's how MK fans work, right? :P

Go for it It explains why people remember you, and with a bit of adaptation it can easily be adapted for the changes with One Tamriel. The only thing that it can't explain is why you are able to get to the other alliance territories by boat.

But really, what One Tamriel could do is to keep the crystals in the harborages. Give an objective right from out of the tutorial, "OPTIONAL: Go to the harborage and touch the crystal to begin a different story!". Then, touching the crystal, you are presented two options: "Start the [silver alliance] story" and "Start the [gold alliance] story". No voice action needed, just text, and I would be satisfied.

That's would be nice, but unfortunately it wouldn't work, as you don't get the crystals until you do the Coldharbour story.

Enodoc

notimetocare wrote: »

Alliance war, At least two years, likely longer. I highly disagree with Enodoc on this one. With the creation of the Dominion in 580, I have seen no other indication that the war starts in 582.

It can't be longer than two years, as the start of the game is 582 and Ayrenn's coronation is 580. (But I do think 580 is more likely than 582, and I might even change the UESP timeline to say so.)

As for how much time has passed within the game, that's all speculation apart from that one journal entry in Wrothgar/Hew's Bane (can't remember which) that has an entry of 583. Until that source was found, we were always in 582. Until an in-game source presents a journal with a later date, we remain in 583.

ShedsHisTail

On the subject of long term faction goals...

What if One Tamriel is the first step in complete dissolution of Factions? What if it's more than a game mechanic and an actual story point showing that, over time, these three factions are actually losing stability and on the verge of collapse?

People who once owed loyalty to one of three major factions are realizing (following the confrontation with Molag Bal) that the Three Banners War is perhaps counter-productive. Folks, common folks, are beginning to move about the world more freely while only the actual military forces continue to struggle over power in Cyrodiil. In time, this fracture could lead to the various alliances falling apart entirely.

What that would mean for PvP play in Cyrodiil is anyone's guess. But, story wise, that makes a lot of sense; especially when it looks like some people could end up pledging new loyalties in the coming Daedric conflicts.

Enodoc

^ That would kinda break the storyline of those zones though, as the quests in the zones themselves will presumably not be changing, and the faction war is still relevant to those quests. In other words, even if the factions break up in 2E 585 or whatever, the zone quests are still set in 2E 582.

Shunravi

I like the spinners story idea.

ShedsHisTail

Enodoc wrote: »

^ That would kinda break the storyline of those zones though, as the quests in the zones themselves, where the faction war is still relevant, will presumably not be changing. In other words, even if the factions break up in 2E 585 or whatever, the zone quests are still set in 2E 582.

Which is the way WoW handled it up until they released the Cataclysm Expansion which updated all the vanilla zones to the current timeline.

The idea being that each zone isn't just a physical space, but also a chronological space is a pretty easy idea to wrap your head around; an idea I think gamers have been accepting for a long time without even noticing it.

EDIT: I'm not saying one should expect such a drastic change in the next two months... Or even the next two years, just saying that One Tamriel lays the groundwork.

altemriel

arcadiadark wrote: »

hello all,

I wanted to ask you guys questions regarding the lore of the game as I am interested in learning more about elder scrolls lore. I have been an elder scrolls fan since morrowind and hope to expand my knowledge within this universe

. How long has the three banner war lasted to the present?

. What is the chronology of the dlc? like are the db and thieves guild after the main quest? is imperial city before or after the main quest?

. How long have the dwemer been missing up to this time and then to skyrim?

. Was altmer vurnability to magic retconned?

. Does the green pact apply to only bosmer born within valenwood? plants from valenwood?

. The events of cadwells gold and silver, is your character at 3 places at once actually helping out with the other factions?

. Which faction achieves their goals the most after the three banner war and which one fails the most at their objectives (ex: argonians being enslaved by their former allies again)

check out these videos, I hope you find your answers there:

Legoless

arcadiadark wrote: »

. What is the chronology of the dlc? like are the db and thieves guild after the main quest? is imperial city before or after the main quest?

Enodoc wrote: »

• DLC Chronology: As released. IC takes place after the end of the Main Quest, and each successive DLC takes place after that. In-game books suggest that we have now entered 2E 583.

Actually @Enodoc , IC most certainly takes place before the Main Quest ends, since the events of Coldharbour (destruction of Great Shackle and Planar Vortex, loss of all Bal's captured souls) would make it impossible for the portal above the City to remain open. IC also fills in Lyranth's story between Shadowfen and Coldharbour, since ICP involves recovering her clan's souls and therefore takes place before the Pyramid takeover. So, that DLC probably takes place before Stirk but after Bal has exhausted most options.

AugustoCP

I'm pretty sure the war doesn't end until Talos comes around and conquers everything. Of course, the combatants will be others. As time passes, the Covenant, the Pact and the Dominion all fade, and are replaced by other warring factions, in a chaotic bloodbath that last until almost the end of the 2nd era, with only a few brief moments of peace when one faction manages to control the roby throne for a couple years at most.

Abeille

Enodoc wrote: »

That's would be nice, but unfortunately it wouldn't work, as you don't get the crystals until you do the Coldharbour story.

On the current setting, it really wouldn't. ZOS would have to change it so that the crystals were always there inside the harborages. Maybe when we finish the Coldharbour story, we get an explanation about them, and then if you already went to other factions Cadwell can cut his explanation short and say "But you already did that, didn't you?".

Either way, I think the story needs a few tweaks to make sense for One Tamriel. Unfortunately, I do not expect any tweaks, since Matt pretty much said that the way we are going to roleplay it is up to us - so no official explanation for doing quests for all the factions.

I_killed_Vivec

Abeille wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

That's would be nice, but unfortunately it wouldn't work, as you don't get the crystals until you do the Coldharbour story.

On the current setting, it really wouldn't. ZOS would have to change it so that the crystals were always there inside the harborages. Maybe when we finish the Coldharbour story, we get an explanation about them, and then if you already went to other factions Cadwell can cut his explanation short and say "But you already did that, didn't you?".

Either way, I think the story needs a few tweaks to make sense for One Tamriel. Unfortunately, I do not expect any tweaks, since Matt pretty much said that the way we are going to roleplay it is up to us - so no official explanation for doing quests for all the factions.

I think the only way they can make sense of it is for the main quest lines in each additional faction to be controlled by Cadwell's silver and gold.

It is simply ridiculous for an EP or DC player fighting the Dominion to be flirting with Ayrenn

As a related aside, I did a quest in the Gold Coast that involved Raz. Now my character is EP but had done Cadwell's gold. How does that quest work if you aren't AD and haven't done Cadwell's? None of the conversation I had with him would have made any sense - being old friends, working for Ayrenn (or at least in her interest), Ayrenn being happy with the outcome.

Now that's a tangle that will only be magnified by One Tamriel.

Abeille

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

That's would be nice, but unfortunately it wouldn't work, as you don't get the crystals until you do the Coldharbour story.

On the current setting, it really wouldn't. ZOS would have to change it so that the crystals were always there inside the harborages. Maybe when we finish the Coldharbour story, we get an explanation about them, and then if you already went to other factions Cadwell can cut his explanation short and say "But you already did that, didn't you?".

Either way, I think the story needs a few tweaks to make sense for One Tamriel. Unfortunately, I do not expect any tweaks, since Matt pretty much said that the way we are going to roleplay it is up to us - so no official explanation for doing quests for all the factions.

I think the only way they can make sense of it is for the main quest lines in each additional faction to be controlled by Cadwell's silver and gold.

It is simply ridiculous for an EP or DC player fighting the Dominion to be flirting with Ayrenn

As a related aside, I did a quest in the Gold Coast that involved Raz. Now my character is EP but had done Cadwell's gold. How does that quest work if you aren't AD and haven't done Cadwell's? None of the conversation I had with him would have made any sense - being old friends, working for Ayrenn (or at least in her interest), Ayrenn being happy with the outcome.

Now that's a tangle that will only be magnified by One Tamriel.

I imagine he talks much less on that case. I don't know for sure because my DB character did the AD quest like.
However, that character didn't do the EP quest line, and I compared Naryu's dialogue in the Gold Coast with what my EP friend got. She has less dialogue, and all she knows about you is that you are part of the Dark Brotherhood. So I think it is like that with Raz for people who didn't do the AD quest line.

Enodoc

Legoless wrote: »

arcadiadark wrote: »

. What is the chronology of the dlc? like are the db and thieves guild after the main quest? is imperial city before or after the main quest?

Enodoc wrote: »

• DLC Chronology: As released. IC takes place after the end of the Main Quest, and each successive DLC takes place after that. In-game books suggest that we have now entered 2E 583.

Actually Enodoc, IC most certainly takes place before the Main Quest ends, since the events of Coldharbour (destruction of Great Shackle and Planar Vortex, loss of all Bal's captured souls) would make it impossible for the portal above the City to remain open. IC also fills in Lyranth's story between Shadowfen and Coldharbour, since ICP involves recovering her clan's souls and therefore takes place before the Pyramid takeover. So, that DLC probably takes place before Stirk but after Bal has exhausted most options.

Hmm, I was sure ZOS promoted it as Molag Bal's last ditch effort to capture Tamriel through Planemeld Obverse, which he initiated once the primary Planemeld had been disrupted. A "last ditch effort" is something you try once all else has failed, not something you do when your primary plan (Planar Vortex) is still intact.

nordsavage

UESP.net

Tan9oSuccka

Enodoc wrote: »

The Altmer had no weakness to magicka in Oblivion either (only a weakness to elemental effects), and no weaknesses at all in Skyrim.

Other than being an Altmer, right?

I kid.

Legoless

The Planemeld Obverse was simply an attempt to speed up the process. Bal was still trying to conventionally pull WGT into Coldharbour, but obviously knew he was running out of time. If the Tower was lost, the rest of Tamriel would soon follow.

I think Bal's "last ditch attempt" refers to the Sublime Brazier rather than the group dungeons. If we assume IC takes place after Sancre Tor, then the Amulet of Kings is lost to him. The Brazier is the second part of that puzzle, so I imagine he'd be pretty desperate to reach it.

Like I said, it would be impossible for IC to take place after Coldhatbour and the Main Quest. ZOS did say that it was the "end" of their Planemeld story, but I'm pretty sure that just means we won't be dealing with Bal anymore, rather than IC being some sort of conclusion to the story arc.

nordsavage

Legoless wrote: »

The Planemeld Obverse was simply an attempt to speed up the process. Bal was still trying to conventionally pull WGT into Coldharbour, but obviously knew he was running out of time. If the Tower was lost, the rest of Tamriel would soon follow.

I think Bal's "last ditch attempt" refers to the Sublime Brazier rather than the group dungeons. If we assume IC takes place after Sancre Tor, then the Amulet of Kings is lost to him. The Brazier is the second part of that puzzle, so I imagine he'd be pretty desperate to reach it.

Like I said, it would be impossible for IC to take place after Coldhatbour and the Main Quest. ZOS did say that it was the "end" of their Planemeld story, but I'm pretty sure that just means we won't be dealing with Bal anymore, rather than IC being some sort of conclusion to the story arc.

This is most likely true as IC was released post main story. The White Gold Tower is played without input from Molag Bal. The tower itself is a focal point for energy in Tamriel and it is Molag Kena and her forces intending to use the energy to super charge the large daedric anchor and finish the plane meld or even expedite Molag Bal's reanimation after his defeat. This may have been Molag Bal's back-up or side plan but it is not him executing it.

To answer a few points of the main post Cadwell's Silver and Gold are Meridia using her powers to give you "What if' scenarios to reenact your campaign had you lead a different life from the other factions. They technically did not happen and your campaign is the canon either overall or personal.

As for the green pact, it most likely applies to Bosmer living in Valenwood and surrounding areas such as reaper's march (northern Valenwood). This practice most likely is not enforced or able to be enforced over distance as Yffre's influence probably only spans the southern forests. This practice probably loses following over time due to several factors. The victors of conflict impose their beliefs and subdue others, "gentrification" caused by major metropolitan areas in central Cyrodiil as imperial influence expands, and all races that migrate into more defined imperial lands tend to take up or at least adhere to the worship and law of the 8/9 divines letting their traditions and regional deities fall to the wayside. You can see this in Oblivion and most notably from the dialogue of Khajiits and Argonians.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

I have just noticed. No one has mentioned,
imperial library.net
They have been gathering TES Lore since "Arena" and no Lore discussion is complete with out referring to this wonderful site!
Huzzah!

Legoless

nordsavage wrote: »

This is most likely true as IC was released post main story. The White Gold Tower is played without input from Molag Bal. The tower itself is a focal point for energy in Tamriel and it is Molag Kena and her forces intending to use the energy to super charge the large daedric anchor and finish the plane meld or even expedite Molag Bal's reanimation after his defeat. This may have been Molag Bal's back-up or side plan but it is not him executing it.

Release date doesn't necessarily equate to the timeline. Of course Bal wasn't personally carrying out the plan, he cannot enter Tamriel in his full power. He shows up if you go poking around beneath WGT though, so h'es very much present and aware of the Imperial City operations.

nordsavage

Legoless wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

This is most likely true as IC was released post main story. The White Gold Tower is played without input from Molag Bal. The tower itself is a focal point for energy in Tamriel and it is Molag Kena and her forces intending to use the energy to super charge the large daedric anchor and finish the plane meld or even expedite Molag Bal's reanimation after his defeat. This may have been Molag Bal's back-up or side plan but it is not him executing it.

Release date doesn't necessarily equate to the timeline. Of course Bal wasn't personally carrying out the plan, he cannot enter Tamriel in his full power. He shows up if you go poking around beneath WGT though, so h'es very much present and aware of the Imperial City operations.

That is not actually Molag Bal it is only an aspect. Simulacrum means imitation or image of. It may be of the same mind but it is not actually him he is subdued. The same principal is found in the aspects of the Three, Vivec in particular. They are of them but not them. Molag is as any daedric entity who is slain is in limbo cast into animus.

Aliyavana

wait so the characters from people not of your faction reconizing you is just a gameplay mechanic?

nordsavage

arcadiadark wrote: »

wait so the characters from people not of your faction reconizing you is just a gameplay mechanic?

It is a minor globalized error that I am guessing really never warranted the time to fix.

Legoless

nordsavage wrote: »

arcadiadark wrote: »

wait so the characters from people not of your faction reconizing you is just a gameplay mechanic?

It is a minor globalized error that I am guessing really never warranted the time to fix.

Except two of the four released DLC all contain reappearing NPCs who explicitly remember you regardless of alliance. They're definitely doing it on purpose now.

ArchMikem

Enodoc wrote: »

• Faction Goals: Considering none of the factions exist by 2E 896, I would suggest that none of them achieved their goals. DC never managed to reclaim the glory of the Second Empire, EP never managed to continue looking out for each other's interests, and AD never managed to bring Tamriel under elven rule.

It's starting to seem to me that because of Molag Bal's attempt with the Plane Meld, it tore the three Alliances away from their initial goals. Instead of capturing and securing Cyrodiil to create a new Empire, the Alliances merely aided the existing Imperial power in liberating Cyrodiil from the Daedra, and after doing so the three were too weakened to effectively continue.

Ffastyl

arcadiadark wrote: »

So the cadwell storylines happen on there own? they are simply a what if situation where you don't actually time travel? feels a bit weird to take weapons and armor and gold from said visions but that's can be shrugged off as game mechanics. also next question, what is meridias relation to the aedric gods? she is a god that hates the undead and is seen as one of the good daedric gods, but it is to my understanding that the aedra and daedra are not in good terms, as seen by the follower of stendarr being suspicious of the guildmaster who is a follower of meridian if I remember correctly. so aedric and daedric relation wise, is meridia one who does or doesn't get along with the aedra?

Meridia's relation to the Aedra and Daedra is best explained by this chart.

by Gidorick

The Spinners have a powerful ability of altering the past without altering the past. They can send you into an illusion that alters or recreates the memories of everyone involved, or the memories of only specific people. Events that happen in this illusion are very real, but leave no physical impact on Tamriel. Almost like a pocket realm of Oblivion, the tales weaved by the Spinners are separate yet connected to Tamriel.

The gameplay mechanic of going through the other alliances' stories is a feature demanded by the players early on, Meridia's Spinner-esque influence being the lore explanation for it.