Everything is overpriced, game requires so much grind - RNG gods are evil

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

newtinmpls wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am talking about the guy who only plays minimal hours a week without access to end game raids etc.

I want no access to "end game raids" that's like.... a choice to grind.

Just can't do it.

So, you want it FORCED upon you, or? :P

Lysette

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

GrumpStump wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Reevster wrote: »

Its a MMO, thats how they work.... maybe farmville would suits your needs better.

What works, flipping stuff?
It should be forbidden.

No, no it shouldn't. It's an integral part of any economy.


GrumpStump

It's a despicable way of enriching yourself on the backs of others, and by doing so, you 'steal' from these traders and limit the poor players.
It's basically an exploit.

Why don't you lecture others about selling stuff too low? News flash- an item is worth what a consumer is willing to pay for it. It's not like you don't have access to this stuff...you are more than capable to go farm mats for yourself.

Seriously, this argument is almost like MMO-welfare or socialism. I come here to play and to escape reality of losing a third of my paycheck to the entitled folks who don't want to work, or the idiots who think they deserve 15 bucks an hour for flipping burgers...not to have to deal with the same carebear crap here in a fantasy game.

I'm trying not to go there myself, and believe me it's not easy, I said my piece enough earlier and don't think this line of discussion has any relevance to the conversation in the thread. I only started talking to you because I was incredulous of making so much, and don't think it's right to think others are automatically doing it wrong by not wanting to invest the tremendous effort you do to not be poor in the game.

I only just recently finished maxing out my bank and my second character's inventory, so I'm poor currently (about 40k I think) just for that, and I do alright in my guild stores, doing all my writs on my Main and currently leveling my crafting on my first alt, which only has Provisioning maxed so far (it was the easiest), and now that I have my own Guild Bank inventory management isn't nearly as problematic, I should have done that a year ago. Now I'm putting all my enchantments I get on my Main into my Guild Bank for easy transfer, previously it took an excessive amount of juggling to transfer any significant amount of items between characters.

So I'm well on my way to doing many of the things you suggest, and agree that you've offered helpful advice to anyone seeking to make money even if I think it's a bit underhanded and kind of mean to other people, forcing them to pay more than they should based on the item's worth just so you can make a profit.

It works better than anything else we've been able to come up with, so there's no ground to stand on by suggesting we should just switch to something else and hope for the best, that would likely prove disastrous. We can't get anywhere by arguing about it though, and it'd be nice if we could honestly and openly discuss how to make improvements in our society, both in game and without, and not have it devolve into vitriol and namecalling.

As for ESO, I honestly don't think there's any point in changing things, I've been thinking about it since posting in this thread and there's really no good way for ZOS to regulate this economy any better, I think it's fine as is. Paying with Gold shouldn't be the best way to get things in a video game, it cheapens the experience of earning things yourself, and if you want the convenience of paying the Gold price instead of the Iron Price *wink* then you should expect to have to pay for it. And as you said, people pay what they're willing to, so there is a limit to how far it can go, eventually people would just be turned away from buying and go earn things themselves, which if anything would hurt all sellers permanently because you'd have fewer people buying once you force everyone to be more self-sufficient (or even drive them away from the game completely).

Ultimately the politics discussion is irrelevant to this discussion because this is a Video game, not real life, and as such you don't have a right to have things be affordable, it's an entirely different situation than the real world, and I see no reason to change it. And if anything it can be healthy to have people doing that, there's a tendency for people to price things for less than they're worth, or also pricing them intentionally just under the price of another player which incrementally drives prices down and everyone makes less money than they should be for the work they put into acquiring the things they're selling. It can certainly get out of hand with stuff being sold for more than it should be, but better that than having the entire economy tank because of constant underselling.

That is one of the mistakes a lot of people make, when they are dealing with economies in games - they undercut prices - that is not how this is done. You do not undercut prices, if you are clever, but instead you look for ways to sell your product with a good profit margin - in ESO this is for example trying to get access (even if indirect) to the best traders, which are so convenient, that people are willing to pay more to not have to go to more remote traders. Where people are comfortable with having to pay more for the convenience and the ability to buy larger amounts of a resource. And where the list of sellers is basically like a who is who in ESO - where you can eventually contact these people directly and make them contractors. In this moment, when they become contractors, your offer has added benefits - a service is combined with it, which justifies even higher prices for the convenience of the customer to not have to go to traders, but get what he wants as direct delivery.

Added-value and a clever marketing makes the price - to undercut prices is for people, who have no clue how to do business.

Edit. and I did not say, pay for that trader - I said, get access to - you do not pay anything for it, you just use it for your purposes, indirect via a contractor. This way you are not limited to 5 guilds, you can use as many as you want, without to be in one.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Lysette wrote: »

That is one of the mistakes a lot of people make, when they are dealing with economies in games - they undercut prices - that is not how this is done. You do not undercut prices, if you are clever, but instead you look for ways to sell your product with a good profit margin - in ESO this is for example trying to get access (even if indirect) to the best traders, which are so convenient, that people are willing to pay more to not have to go to more remote traders. Where people are comfortable with having to pay more for the convenience and the ability to buy larger amounts of a resource. And where the list of sellers is basically like a who is who in ESO - where you can eventually contact these people directly and make them contractors. In this moment, when they become contractors, your offer has added benefits - a service is combined with it, which justifies even higher prices for the convenience of the customer to not have to go to traders, but get what he wants as direct delivery.

Added-value and a clever marketing makes the price - to undercut prices is for people, who have no clue how to do business.

Excuse me, I "undercut" (IF I was to sell) for the reason others ask FAR too much for something as silly as the item i would be trying to sell.
Hell, maybe i am such an "Economy Cornerer", but in reversed way.

Makkir

newtinmpls wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am talking about the guy who only plays minimal hours a week without access to end game raids etc.

I want no access to "end game raids" that's like.... a choice to grind.

Just can't do it.

Let me rephrase what I mean by no access, since that carpet clearly came out from under you.

Some players don't have the time to sit online for a raid, and some are not in a guild capable of clearing said Raid. In that sense, no they don't have access to the BoP gear that comes from that raid.

Better?

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

@Makkir I'm one of them.
I suck so badly, even the NPC's laugh with me...
Noob forever. XD

Lysette

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

That is one of the mistakes a lot of people make, when they are dealing with economies in games - they undercut prices - that is not how this is done. You do not undercut prices, if you are clever, but instead you look for ways to sell your product with a good profit margin - in ESO this is for example trying to get access (even if indirect) to the best traders, which are so convenient, that people are willing to pay more to not have to go to more remote traders. Where people are comfortable with having to pay more for the convenience and the ability to buy larger amounts of a resource. And where the list of sellers is basically like a who is who in ESO - where you can eventually contact these people directly and make them contractors. In this moment, when they become contractors, your offer has added benefits - a service is combined with it, which justifies even higher prices for the convenience of the customer to not have to go to traders, but get what he wants as direct delivery.

Added-value and a clever marketing makes the price - to undercut prices is for people, who have no clue how to do business.

Excuse me, I "undercut" (IF I was to sell) for the reason others ask FAR too much for something as silly as the item i would be trying to sell.
Hell, maybe i am such an "Economy Cornerer", but in reversed way.

Then you might be one of those, who think that self-farmed is free - but it isn't - you have invested time into it. If you undercut it significantly, you give basically no value to your own work - this is a way to stay poor and benefits no one. Not even those who buy your stuff, because they get a wrong impression of what this stuff is really worth and what they will have to pay, if you are not around or are not able to deliver in those amounts, which they need.

Edit. the smiling one will be the trader, who asks for a lot more - he sees your offer, buys it, and relists it for a much higher price - done. You helped him with it and he can just smile about how naive you were.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Lysette wrote: »

Then you might be one of those, who thinks that self-farmed is free - but it isn't - you have invested time into it. If you undercut it significantly, you give basically no value to your own work - this is a way to stay poor and benefits no one. Not even those who buy your stuff, because they get a wrong impression of what this stuff is really worth and what they will have to pay, if you are not around or are not able to deliver in those amounts, which they need.

WOW, do you know me badly.
No, I'd undercut, since I do not like charging for what should be a fairly common thing.
I am an Anti-Crafter, i simply CANNOT make time for it, or wrap my mind around it.
I am far too impatient to learn this.
But at level 7, my prime character, was master gatherer.
And i simply GIVE my mats away.
Why not?
If i can make someone happy doing this, then, by all means, I HAVE to give it away.
I recently threw out a stack of 189 Nirnroot to someone that needed it.
Or at least, so the person said, who am i to know what is done with it.

But the fact is, if we help out one another, it would be a far better world.
And i am the first to do just that, miss.

On a side note: i already said this is the reason I keep being poor.
It never mattered, I got around, until that market flux.
That screwed me over BADLY...
And not just me, I am sure!

Even more, i am in RL just the same, which my family hates.
But it makes me happy to help others.

mike_de

Khajiit_Ri wrote: »

This one finds extreme humor when people talk about economy in a fictional world where resources are pretty much limitless. Sips Skooma

Yes, it seems so ... pointless.

This are only "pixels". They have no value at all in my opinion. How can a digital, imaginary good ever be rare? I am playing with what I farm, leveling one of my chars as fulltime crafter. As I always do, in any MMO. This guy crafts my gear, so that I am independent from any shifty trade guilds lurking around, trying to get my imaginary "worthless" in game gold.

I played many MMO over time, but I simply do not understand the concept of a "munchkin" like game play, trying to maximize the gear, skills and attributes. I am playing for fun, you know.

And I don't do PvP. You need to be a munchkin to win. That does not look like any fun to me.

Lysette

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Then you might be one of those, who thinks that self-farmed is free - but it isn't - you have invested time into it. If you undercut it significantly, you give basically no value to your own work - this is a way to stay poor and benefits no one. Not even those who buy your stuff, because they get a wrong impression of what this stuff is really worth and what they will have to pay, if you are not around or are not able to deliver in those amounts, which they need.

WOW, do you know me badly.
No, I'd undercut, since I do not like charging for what should be a fairly common thing.
I am an Anti-Crafter, i simply CANNOT make time for it, or wrap my mind around it.
I am far too impatient to learn this.
But at level 7, my prime character, was master gatherer.
And i simply GIVE my mats away.
Why not?
If i can make someone happy doing this, then, by all means, I HAVE to give it away.
I recently threw out a stack of 189 Nirnroot to someone that needed it.
Or at least, so the person said, who am i to know what is done with it.

But the fact is, if we help out one another, it would be a far better world.
And i am the first to do just that, miss.

Has pro and cons as well - I made the experience in other games, that helping new player out with valuable mats or money is not really helping him. He will most likely go nowhere, because he never learns about the effort required to get these things and will have a hard time to get into the game and even give up - the better way is to give advice, but not money or mats.

But in your case, where you do not need that stuff and just give it away without to use the market - it is ok, I guess. But when you put it for cheap into the market, it will most likely be bought by traders, who will relist it for a much higher price.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Lysette wrote: »

Has pro and cons as well - I made the experience in other games, that helping new player out with valuable mats or money is not really helping him. He will most likely go nowhere, because he never learns about the effort required to get these things and will have a hard time to get into the game and even give up - the better way is to give advice, but not money or mats.

But in your case, where you do not need that stuff and just give it away without to use the market - it is ok, I guess. But when you put it for cheap into the market, it will most likely be bought by traders, who will relist it for a much higher price.

Oh, i FULLY agree, there is more to that when helping someone.
But I ran into this tank, that could not tank, even if her life depended on it.
Bad gear.
Gave her a purple set.
Well... "her"... a guy playing a girl, but i refer to her as the character was female.
That aside, she was BLOODY thankful.
I also gave her some advice, as to where to look for info on the internet.

But yes, one cannot help alone by handing out stuff, true...
There is more to it.
But it feels so good, when you see your efforts make someone actually happy.
That in itself is just priceless...

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Sorry, just HAD to share this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qApRHrMdang

Lysette

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Has pro and cons as well - I made the experience in other games, that helping new player out with valuable mats or money is not really helping him. He will most likely go nowhere, because he never learns about the effort required to get these things and will have a hard time to get into the game and even give up - the better way is to give advice, but not money or mats.

But in your case, where you do not need that stuff and just give it away without to use the market - it is ok, I guess. But when you put it for cheap into the market, it will most likely be bought by traders, who will relist it for a much higher price.

Oh, i FULLY agree, there is more to that when helping someone.
But I ran into this tank, that could not tank, even if her life depended on it.
Bad gear.
Gave her a purple set.
Well... "her"... a guy playing a girl, but i refer to her as the character was female.
That aside, she was BLOODY thankful.
I also gave her some advice, as to where to look for info on the internet.

But yes, one cannot help alone by handing out stuff, true...
There is more to it.
But it feels so good, when you see your efforts make someone actually happy.
That in itself is just priceless...

I know, I have made this mistake often enough, because I have a loving heart and sometimes give stuff away against better judgement - but there is not one of those, to whom I gave valuable stuff, who got successful or even stayed in the game. It is spoiling them early one - they will not get into the game and stay, because they did not earn their place - so it has no value to them, nothing what makes them attached to the game. They just see these materials, and they cannot get them by themselves. It is more frustrating them in the long run, than it would help. Short term thankful, yes, but long term frustrated.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Lysette wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Has pro and cons as well - I made the experience in other games, that helping new player out with valuable mats or money is not really helping him. He will most likely go nowhere, because he never learns about the effort required to get these things and will have a hard time to get into the game and even give up - the better way is to give advice, but not money or mats.

But in your case, where you do not need that stuff and just give it away without to use the market - it is ok, I guess. But when you put it for cheap into the market, it will most likely be bought by traders, who will relist it for a much higher price.

Oh, i FULLY agree, there is more to that when helping someone.
But I ran into this tank, that could not tank, even if her life depended on it.
Bad gear.
Gave her a purple set.
Well... "her"... a guy playing a girl, but i refer to her as the character was female.
That aside, she was BLOODY thankful.
I also gave her some advice, as to where to look for info on the internet.

But yes, one cannot help alone by handing out stuff, true...
There is more to it.
But it feels so good, when you see your efforts make someone actually happy.
That in itself is just priceless...

I know, I have made this mistake often enough, because I have a loving heart and sometimes give stuff away against better judgement - but there is not one of those, to whom I gave valuable stuff, who got successful or even stayed in the game. It is spoiling them early one - they will not get into the game and stay, because they did not earn their place - so it has no value to them, nothing what makes them attached to the game. They just see these materials, and they cannot get them by themselves. It is more furstrating them in the long run, than it would helpl Short term thankful, but long term frustrated.

True... but i can't help it, it's who I am...

As a kid, my friends were the "weirdo's", the guys that were bullied.
Often i ended up in the police station for having a chat with them bullies.
Until, i had one of them a bit... dead...
Made me think twice.
That was a bit too permanent for me.

Still, I stil go apeshit when i see things that are just wrong.

Nature of the beast, i reckon?

Lysette

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Has pro and cons as well - I made the experience in other games, that helping new player out with valuable mats or money is not really helping him. He will most likely go nowhere, because he never learns about the effort required to get these things and will have a hard time to get into the game and even give up - the better way is to give advice, but not money or mats.

But in your case, where you do not need that stuff and just give it away without to use the market - it is ok, I guess. But when you put it for cheap into the market, it will most likely be bought by traders, who will relist it for a much higher price.

Oh, i FULLY agree, there is more to that when helping someone.
But I ran into this tank, that could not tank, even if her life depended on it.
Bad gear.
Gave her a purple set.
Well... "her"... a guy playing a girl, but i refer to her as the character was female.
That aside, she was BLOODY thankful.
I also gave her some advice, as to where to look for info on the internet.

But yes, one cannot help alone by handing out stuff, true...
There is more to it.
But it feels so good, when you see your efforts make someone actually happy.
That in itself is just priceless...

I know, I have made this mistake often enough, because I have a loving heart and sometimes give stuff away against better judgement - but there is not one of those, to whom I gave valuable stuff, who got successful or even stayed in the game. It is spoiling them early one - they will not get into the game and stay, because they did not earn their place - so it has no value to them, nothing what makes them attached to the game. They just see these materials, and they cannot get them by themselves. It is more furstrating them in the long run, than it would helpl Short term thankful, but long term frustrated.

True... but i can't help it, it's who I am...

As a kid, my friends were the "weirdo's", the guys that were bullied.
Often i ended up in the police station for having a chat with them bullies.
Until, i had one of them a bit... dead...
Made me think twice.
That was a bit too permanent for me.

Still, I stil go apeshit when i see things that are just wrong.

Nature of the beast, i reckon?

Haha, yes, I sometimes keep making this mistake myself again - even I know pretty well, how it will turn out, but there is always this hope, that it could be different this time - it never was unfortunately. So I have to rethink it - maybe I am just taking their chance away, to feel real satisfaction for having achieved something on their very own. And so they do not get this deeply satisfying feeling, which keeps them in the game and lets them work even harder - I spoiled them with it.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

If only you knew how many times i got stolen from by folks i took in house to give them somewhat shelter...

But I'll never learn...

It's the story of the scorpion and the alligator....

Lysette

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

If only you knew how many times i got stolen from by folks i took in house to give them somewhat shelter...

But I'll never learn...

It's the story of the scorpion and the alligator....

that is quite risky what you do, you do not even know them, as it sounds - they could be freaks and you might not wake up the other morning. Be careful.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Oh, I am not afraid.
Funny, things go missing with the folks when i am not around.
More funny, everyone seems scared when i am around...
Some told me i look just aggressive?
Am I?

Lysette

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Oh, I am not afraid.
Funny, things go missing with the folks when i am not around.
More funny, everyone seems scared when i am around...
Some told me i look just aggressive?
Am I?

I have seen this picture in another thread already - let say, it is not easy to tell, in what mood you are in this picture. And this could scare people and they might think this is aggressive from your side, even it is their own feeling which creates this.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Oh, I was in a very happy mood, actually...
This picture was taken at the Zoo in Antwerp, I just came from the Reptile section.
Very nice day, indeed.
Bloody good company, too....

Balamoor

It's funny that any time anyone actually has to do more than just press a Legendary Vending machine button they are "grinding" and it must end.

I have been following a pretty decent story line since launch, grouping with my friends and having a blast.

Guess I'm one of these easy to please peasants and am not as "discerning" as some of the hipsters that have invaded the game of late.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Ah, another marvel, same band though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSdUT9t6oxs

Lysette

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Oh, I was in a very happy mood, actually...
This picture was taken at the Zoo in Antwerp, I just came from the Reptile section.
Very nice day, indeed.
Bloody good company, too....

It is hard to tell from a picture, in motion it would be easier to tell. You seem a bit tired and that adds to the effect I guess.

Lysette

Balamoor wrote: »

It's funny that any time anyone actually has to do more than just press a Legendary Vending machine button they are "grinding" and it must end.

I have been following a pretty decent story line since launch, grouping with my friends and having a blast.

Guess I'm one of these easy to please peasants and am not as "discerning" as some of the hipsters that have invaded the game of late.

To me for example, building up something from scratch is fun to me, I like doing that - and I like this deeply satisfying feeling to have achieved what I wanted later on. This is the fun part for me - when it is achieved, there is a moment of emptiness, until I find a new goal and go for it - as long as there will always be a goal worth achieving, I will be fine.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Tired?
MAYBE a bit drunk... maybe.... XD

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

This thread seems to be diverging from the original discussion. Along with this, there was some talk of real-world politics, which would be against the Forum Rules. For continuation of this discussion, we have to ask that everyone stay on topic to avoid derailing another members thread.

Thank you for understanding.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

@ZOS_AntonioP Ah... I got a bit carried away, my apologies, Sir Moderator.
Being autistic, I tend to do that, occasionally....
I hope you accept my sincere apologies.

Back to topic.

I said, I undercut, if I was trading, in the aim to help others, less fortunate, like me with RNG.

Rohamad_Ali

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Oh, I am not afraid.
Funny, things go missing with the folks when i am not around.
More funny, everyone seems scared when i am around...
Some told me i look just aggressive?
Am I?

I can fix those tats an get sum eye wrinkle cream for ya . I also recommend a good lotion and maybe a cucumber mask to bring out your inner glow .

Back to Our story !

Economics . Buy low , sell high .

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

...
Farm, give to the needy.

On a side note: I know I am ugly, that was not the topic though. XD

disintegr8

Getting back to the topic...

When DB arrives on console next week I guess I won't have any trouble outfitting another 4 of my characters with CP150 (VR15) armour, as I decided long ago that CP160 (VR16) armour is not worth the resources.

I have a million in gold to buy any materials I do not already have, an 8 trait master crafter to make anything I want, a stack of Kutas for enchanting said items and a stack of each of the gold improvement materials to make legendary any items that I need to.

I also have a stockpile of VR16 weapons, shields, jewelry, monster helms and shoulders from my only existing VR16 characters questing activities.

These are the benefits of the 'PVE grind' I guess

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Aye.
And those throw around as i do not craft...

But this makes me being poor, and now stuck due to the market prices going bananas.