Razum Dar [SPOILERS]

Teridaxus · June 2016

I feel me like an ass a little when i sided with naryuu in the final decission of the sweetroll quest.
Couldn't let that crazy *** run around so she can kill more then but raz was so disappointed.

Recremen · June 2016

Spoiler

After the quest, the next time you meet him he tells you how he survived if you question him about it. He mostly dodged the falling rocks and was able to make it out alive, unlike the other soldiers trapped in there. He was injured, but recovered enough to get back to work. Unlike most dialogue, he does NOT repeat this statement, so it's extremely easy to miss and there's no way to hear him say it again after the first time.

Abeille · June 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

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Abeille wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

It is not an oversight. He explains that he was able to escape, but that the other soldiers who were with him perished. It was just an illusion of choice. The big difference is that he isn't mad at you for disobeying him.

I never choose to kill him because I know what DOESN'T happen in the future: No one in Tamriel ever used a circlet to control all Mer. Therefore, the circlet either couldn't do that and it was just a rumor, or Raz finds another way to destroy it later. I wasn't about to let a bunch of soldiers die for a piece of metal that I knew was never going to do any harm to the Dominion. Perks of playing a game set in the past on a franchise, I guess.

I don't remember anyone saying that he escaped, not even Razum Dar himself and I didn't skip any of the Dialogue either. On my 1st playthru of a game, I usually make it a point to talk with all NPCs be they just random characters or important NPCs and everyone I spoke to seemed upset that Razum Dar was gone, so for him to show up was unexpected to me as I was sure he was dead and nothing anyone said convinced me otherwise. I saw it as an oversight, nothing more.

He does, though. You did miss the dialogue somehow, I'm afraid. And the thing is, if you miss it, he does not repeat it later. And because talking to him isn't a quest objective, then a lot of people miss the dialogue. You can believe everyone is lying to you if you wish, but we are not. You can search the internet and you will see people describing that encounter.

Recremen · June 2016

Okay well here's the video where he says how he survived! All thanks go to the recorder!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psfp2rxUAV0

danno8 · June 2016

Ritzey01 wrote: »

WOW at the rudeness of most of these answers!

People never pass up a chance at feeling superior.

Abeille · June 2016

@Recremen I came back to this thread to edit my previous comment and add that video, but you were much quicker than me! xD

Recremen · June 2016

danno8 wrote: »

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Ritzey01 wrote: »

WOW at the rudeness of most of these answers!

People never pass up a chance at feeling superior.

Folks who enjoyed the story should be trying to help others enjoy the story, not make a contest out of it!

Tryxus · June 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Okay well here's the video where he says how he survived! All thanks go to the recorder!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psfp2rxUAV0

I don't get that dialogue at all...

Maybe cuz AD is Silver for me?

Recremen · June 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

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Recremen wrote: »

Okay well here's the video where he says how he survived! All thanks go to the recorder!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psfp2rxUAV0

I don't get that dialogue at all...

Maybe cuz AD is Silver for me?

You may have just never chosen the dialogue option where he offers the explanation. Here it is shown as his only dialogue option, but if you have to go see him as part of the main quest (like when you go to teleport to the meeting of the three rulers from the Mage's guild after the story main quest) then it is an optional choice for dialogue. Since it was Silver for you, then you obviously wouldn't have been told after then end of the Reaper's March questline to go see him for the teleport. Thus, it would be easy to miss this.

Abeille · June 2016

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

I feel me like an ass a little when i sided with naryuu in the final decission of the sweetroll quest.
Couldn't let that crazy *** run around so she can kill more then but raz was so disappointed.

I decided to do as Raz said for two reasons:
1 - I hoped to meet that character again in Vvardenfell one day if I let her live. I almost never kill characters because I always expect them to show up again later.
2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

If she gets any of the targets and you kill her, do the targets really die? I could prevent their capture so she had no captives, which made the decision to let her live a little easier for me. But I really wanted to kill her. I probably would have done it begrudgingly if Raz asked instead of Naryu.

dagonbeer · June 2016

He's actually standing to the left of the door in Dune before you enter into Lorkaj's (sp) realm, so you ought to be able to chat him up even if you're doing gold/silver (although I can't confirm, since I'm AD)

cyclonus11 · June 2016

I'm always thorough with my quests and listen to every bit of dialogue, and yet I also somehow missed him.

Tryxus · June 2016

Abeille wrote: »

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mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

I feel me like an ass a little when i sided with naryuu in the final decission of the sweetroll quest.
Couldn't let that crazy *** run around so she can kill more then but raz was so disappointed.

I decided to do as Raz said for two reasons:
1 - I hoped to meet that character again in Vvardenfell one day if I let her live. I almost never kill characters because I always expect them to show up again later.
2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

If she gets any of the targets and you kill her, do the targets really die? I could prevent their capture so she had no captives, which made the decision to let her live a little easier for me. But I really wanted to kill her. I probably would have done it begrudgingly if Raz asked instead of Naryu.

Raz doesn't get angry with you if you don't side with him. He does exclaim that what you did is murder like the DB or the Morag Tong, not like how the Eyes of the Queen operate

In my case, the killer had 1 victim and I sided with Naryu. The killer murdered those people on account of predictions and seeing the future, but she herself is unsure on how the future will turn out. 1 victim died, but by killing her you saved many more from the same fate

That's the only time I actually disagreed with Ras

He wasn't angry when I talked to him after killing the killer, he simply stated he'll return to the Dominion and report his success

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

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Tryxus wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

He never died!!!!

That's exactly my point.
The dialogue much such a big deal about how his death is certain if you leave him down there, about how there's no way out, how he is absolutely going to die. Then the next time you see him he's like, "Oh, yeah, so no big thang, yo."

What's the point of making it such dramatic decision if it's not going to mean anything? Wouldn't have even ben heard to code in a placeholder NPC for player's who let him die.

The point being to bring forth emotions in the player: making a difficult choice to either kill a loveable NPC or potentially doom the Dominion.

Which is fine. But when that choice ultimately ends up being pointless. That's annoying.

Ultimately, since I did the quest where he dies during Cadwell's Gold, I chocked it up to something that happened in the illusion or vision or whatever you want to call it and pretended I'd never met him before. But, that's a little broken too, since other characters I met during Silver and Gold claim to remember me.

Which is another question... Are Silver and Gold actual things your character does? Or is it like an elaborate dream that Cadwell puts you into just so you can see the other side of things?

Considering it is a daedra you may never know. Did you do those in an alternate dimension? An alternate Timeline? When you complete them do you return to your own timeline? Either that or it is just a vision... which is kind of how I view doing thieves guild, vampire, werewolf, and dark brotherhood on characters where the theme doesn't fit the character. I look at it as 'alternate timelines' which is a thing in TES series.

Nestor · June 2016

Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

Abeille · June 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

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Abeille wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

I feel me like an ass a little when i sided with naryuu in the final decission of the sweetroll quest.
Couldn't let that crazy *** run around so she can kill more then but raz was so disappointed.

I decided to do as Raz said for two reasons:
1 - I hoped to meet that character again in Vvardenfell one day if I let her live. I almost never kill characters because I always expect them to show up again later.
2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

If she gets any of the targets and you kill her, do the targets really die? I could prevent their capture so she had no captives, which made the decision to let her live a little easier for me. But I really wanted to kill her. I probably would have done it begrudgingly if Raz asked instead of Naryu.

Raz doesn't get angry with you if you don't side with him. He does exclaim that what you did is murder like the DB or the Morag Tong, not like how the Eyes of the Queen operate

In my case, the killer had 1 victim and I sided with Naryu. The killer murdered those people on account of predictions and seeing the future, but she herself is unsure on how the future will turn out. 1 victim died, but by killing her you saved many more from the same fate

That's the only time I actually disagreed with Ras He wasn't angry when I talked to him after killing the killer, he simply stated he'll return to the Dominion and report his success

I'm glad to know he doesn't get angry. Both decisions made sense for that character I was playing as, who doesn't shy away from murder but also doesn't bother with it if it doesn't benefit her directly or it isn't a DB contract. But I was as a player trying to avoid getting at odds with Raz again because I knew I wasn't going to do that quest again in another character (it only unlocks after you finish the DB quest line, and my other characters are not really the sort of people that would worship Sithis).

Nestor wrote: »

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Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

Oh I agree, I saved him (even though he can't die) eight times already, on all of my characters that got that far (and I will save him two more times when my new baby characters get there, too). NOT making him mad on the circlet situation isn't an option for me, so I would like to avoid doing it on other situations.

ADarklore · June 2016

Nestor wrote: »

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Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

So you saved his life while risking countless thousands of others? The Circlet could be used to control ALL Mer if it fell into the wrong hands, and since it now cannot be destroyed because only the furnace could destroy it, it is still lying around somewhere in Tamriel for someone the likes of Mannimarco or worse to find. Sorry, I always choose 'the greater good' and sacrificing a comrade is worth the cost if it saves countless others.

Abeille · June 2016

ADarklore wrote: »

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Nestor wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

So you saved his life while risking countless thousands of others? The Circlet could be used to control ALL Mer if it fell into the wrong hands, and since it now cannot be destroyed because only the furnace could destroy it, it is still lying around somewhere in Tamriel for someone the likes of Mannimarco or worse to find. Sorry, I always choose 'the greater good' and sacrificing a comrade is worth the cost if it saves countless others.

That's where metagaming kicked in for me. I knew such a thing couldn't possibly exist, because it would have to come up eventually. But in 1000 years, it never did. And because we had the option to destroy it, it can never come up in a future TES game. This would be too game-changing to be in a game set in the past. The circlet either doesn't work, or Raz really does find a way to get rid of its power later (he has some ideas of how to deal with it later).

I have a really hard time "living in the moment" in ESO instead of thinking of what happens and what doesn't happens in other TES games. I think it is a bad thing and it really detracts from my overall enjoyment of the game, but I simply can't avoid it.

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

Abeille wrote: »

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ADarklore wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

So you saved his life while risking countless thousands of others? The Circlet could be used to control ALL Mer if it fell into the wrong hands, and since it now cannot be destroyed because only the furnace could destroy it, it is still lying around somewhere in Tamriel for someone the likes of Mannimarco or worse to find. Sorry, I always choose 'the greater good' and sacrificing a comrade is worth the cost if it saves countless others.

That's where metagaming kicked in for me. I knew such a thing couldn't possibly exist, because it would have to come up eventually. But in 1000 years, it never did. And because we had the option to destroy it, it can never come up in a future TES game. This would be too game-changing to be in a game set in the past. The circlet either doesn't work, or Raz really does find a way to get rid of its power later (he has some ideas of how to deal with it later).

I have a really hard time "living in the moment" in ESO instead of thinking of what happens and what doesn't happens in other TES games. I think it is a bad thing and it really detracts from my overall enjoyment of the game, but I simply can't avoid it.

Elder Scrolls VI: That Damned Ciclet

Abeille · June 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

show previous quotes

Abeille wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

So you saved his life while risking countless thousands of others? The Circlet could be used to control ALL Mer if it fell into the wrong hands, and since it now cannot be destroyed because only the furnace could destroy it, it is still lying around somewhere in Tamriel for someone the likes of Mannimarco or worse to find. Sorry, I always choose 'the greater good' and sacrificing a comrade is worth the cost if it saves countless others.

That's where metagaming kicked in for me. I knew such a thing couldn't possibly exist, because it would have to come up eventually. But in 1000 years, it never did. And because we had the option to destroy it, it can never come up in a future TES game. This would be too game-changing to be in a game set in the past. The circlet either doesn't work, or Raz really does find a way to get rid of its power later (he has some ideas of how to deal with it later).

I have a really hard time "living in the moment" in ESO instead of thinking of what happens and what doesn't happens in other TES games. I think it is a bad thing and it really detracts from my overall enjoyment of the game, but I simply can't avoid it.

Elder Scrolls VI: That Damned Ciclet

Hahahahah

As I said, it can't happen because then many players will be like "But I destroyed that damned circlet over a thousand years ago! I almost killed a particularly handsome cat for that, too!".

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

Abeille wrote: »

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ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

So you saved his life while risking countless thousands of others? The Circlet could be used to control ALL Mer if it fell into the wrong hands, and since it now cannot be destroyed because only the furnace could destroy it, it is still lying around somewhere in Tamriel for someone the likes of Mannimarco or worse to find. Sorry, I always choose 'the greater good' and sacrificing a comrade is worth the cost if it saves countless others.

That's where metagaming kicked in for me. I knew such a thing couldn't possibly exist, because it would have to come up eventually. But in 1000 years, it never did. And because we had the option to destroy it, it can never come up in a future TES game. This would be too game-changing to be in a game set in the past. The circlet either doesn't work, or Raz really does find a way to get rid of its power later (he has some ideas of how to deal with it later).

I have a really hard time "living in the moment" in ESO instead of thinking of what happens and what doesn't happens in other TES games. I think it is a bad thing and it really detracts from my overall enjoyment of the game, but I simply can't avoid it.

Elder Scrolls VI: That Damned Ciclet

Hahahahah

As I said, it can't happen because then many players will be like "But I destroyed that damned circlet over a thousand years ago! I almost killed a particularly handsome cat for that, too!".

Well, everyone has the things they did... then there's the Canon version of how it went down. Kind of like how some folks killed Vivec in Morrowind, but in the Canon that's not how it goes down.

Abeille · June 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

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Abeille wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

So you saved his life while risking countless thousands of others? The Circlet could be used to control ALL Mer if it fell into the wrong hands, and since it now cannot be destroyed because only the furnace could destroy it, it is still lying around somewhere in Tamriel for someone the likes of Mannimarco or worse to find. Sorry, I always choose 'the greater good' and sacrificing a comrade is worth the cost if it saves countless others.

That's where metagaming kicked in for me. I knew such a thing couldn't possibly exist, because it would have to come up eventually. But in 1000 years, it never did. And because we had the option to destroy it, it can never come up in a future TES game. This would be too game-changing to be in a game set in the past. The circlet either doesn't work, or Raz really does find a way to get rid of its power later (he has some ideas of how to deal with it later).

I have a really hard time "living in the moment" in ESO instead of thinking of what happens and what doesn't happens in other TES games. I think it is a bad thing and it really detracts from my overall enjoyment of the game, but I simply can't avoid it.

Elder Scrolls VI: That Damned Ciclet

Hahahahah

As I said, it can't happen because then many players will be like "But I destroyed that damned circlet over a thousand years ago! I almost killed a particularly handsome cat for that, too!".

Well, everyone has the things they did... then there's the Canon version of how it went down. Kind of like how some folks killed Vivec in Morrowind, but in the Canon that's not how it goes down.

But if they decide that what is canon is that the circlet was NOT destroyed, and so it comes back to bite us, then there wasn't anything I could do about it to start with. Therefore, it wouldn't change my actions in the quest in any way, there would be no reason to. It's what happens when we have a game set in the past, unfortunately.

ADarklore · June 2016

Abeille wrote: »

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ADarklore wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

So you saved his life while risking countless thousands of others? The Circlet could be used to control ALL Mer if it fell into the wrong hands, and since it now cannot be destroyed because only the furnace could destroy it, it is still lying around somewhere in Tamriel for someone the likes of Mannimarco or worse to find. Sorry, I always choose 'the greater good' and sacrificing a comrade is worth the cost if it saves countless others.

That's where metagaming kicked in for me. I knew such a thing couldn't possibly exist, because it would have to come up eventually. But in 1000 years, it never did. And because we had the option to destroy it, it can never come up in a future TES game. This would be too game-changing to be in a game set in the past. The circlet either doesn't work, or Raz really does find a way to get rid of its power later (he has some ideas of how to deal with it later).

I have a really hard time "living in the moment" in ESO instead of thinking of what happens and what doesn't happens in other TES games. I think it is a bad thing and it really detracts from my overall enjoyment of the game, but I simply can't avoid it.

Um... at the time we do not KNOW the future... apparently you're not a RP'er.

Keep in mind the player is the ONLY 'vestige' - and we don't know what happens in future ES games because that's in the future, oh, and life in Tamriel is not a 'game'.

So from a RP perspective, the Circlet represents a direct threat to all Mer within Tamriel... so our choice is to either let that threat remain forever or sacrifice Raz and be certain that it is completely destroyed.

Abeille · June 2016

ADarklore wrote: »

show previous quotes

Abeille wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

2 - Raz was really mad at me last time I didn't do what he said (because I didn't destroy the circlet).

I remembered a book I had read back in my youth, where a similar situation was in the story. The hero of that story chose to save the person instead of sacrificing them. When the person started going off on the Hero for not sacrificing them, the hero responded with, "I am just glad you are alive to be mad at me" and walked away.

So, that is why I did not listen to Raz and saved him. If he is mad at me, that means he is alive and well, and he will get over it eventually and see my point of view.

So you saved his life while risking countless thousands of others? The Circlet could be used to control ALL Mer if it fell into the wrong hands, and since it now cannot be destroyed because only the furnace could destroy it, it is still lying around somewhere in Tamriel for someone the likes of Mannimarco or worse to find. Sorry, I always choose 'the greater good' and sacrificing a comrade is worth the cost if it saves countless others.

That's where metagaming kicked in for me. I knew such a thing couldn't possibly exist, because it would have to come up eventually. But in 1000 years, it never did. And because we had the option to destroy it, it can never come up in a future TES game. This would be too game-changing to be in a game set in the past. The circlet either doesn't work, or Raz really does find a way to get rid of its power later (he has some ideas of how to deal with it later).

I have a really hard time "living in the moment" in ESO instead of thinking of what happens and what doesn't happens in other TES games. I think it is a bad thing and it really detracts from my overall enjoyment of the game, but I simply can't avoid it.

Um... at the time we do not KNOW the future... apparently you're not a RP'er. Keep in mind the player is the ONLY 'vestige' - and we don't know what happens in future ES games because that's in the future, oh, and life in Tamriel is not a 'game'. So from a RP perspective, the Circlet represents a direct threat to all Mer within Tamriel... so our choice is to either let that threat remain forever or sacrifice Raz and be certain that it is completely destroyed.

I actually am a roleplayer, but when it comes to things like that (a huge game changer), the first thing that crosses my mind is "but that is not possible". So I just adapt my characters to that situation, and come up with reasons why they made that decision, reasons that fit their personality (one of them has ayleid blood and doesn't believe ayleids would have made a circlet that could end up controlling them, the other isn't part of the Dominion ICly or a mer and doesn't care, the other is just bad at making decisions on the spot, this sort of thing), while the real reason is because I the player know what happens.

I've been roleplaying for 11 years now. I avoid characters with one-tone personalities in favor of adaptability.