Razum Dar [SPOILERS]

ShedsHisTail

Spoiler

I let him die in the main quest... How is he back?

Did I miss something?
He doesn't even offer an explanation.

Ritzey01

that was my thought also.

Telel

The answer is.....

You should have paid attention and talked to the NPCs instead of clicking through the quests in Reaper's March.

Nestor

Yes, if you had talked to the NPCs, you may have sussed out what happened.

An amazing amount of information about what is really going on in the game can be learned from NPCs, both before and after quests, and from the books and letters laying around.

ShedsHisTail

Regardless.
-I- haven't seen him since then, you'd think the next time we meet he wouldn't just assume I knew the answer. Feel like I should at least have the option to ask about it since I apparently get to ask every other recurring character how their life is going.

Tryxus

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Regardless.
-I- haven't seen him since then, you'd think the next time we meet he wouldn't just assume I knew the answer. Feel like I should at least have the option to ask about it since I apparently get to ask every other recurring character how their life is going.

He reappears in Dune, near the Two Moons Path

dagonbeer

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Regardless.
-I- haven't seen him since then, you'd think the next time we meet he wouldn't just assume I knew the answer. Feel like I should at least have the option to ask about it since I apparently get to ask every other recurring character how their life is going.

Well, while he was waiting in line to congratulate you at the Dune after party you totally snubbed him, pretended he didn't even exist, so I'd be pissed off too. Just be thankful he's even giving you the time of day.

ShedsHisTail

Apparently.
I even looked for him and didn't see him there.

ShedsHisTail

And for all my searching of the internet for answers... the explanation is lackluster.

Acrolas

Gates of Fire isn't part of the Reaper's March main story.

A Door into Moonlight is (after Grim Watch, before Arenthia).

Lenikus

Apparently you don't listen, nor read the dialogue.
If so, why do you even care an npc 'reappeared' ?

ShedsHisTail

Lenikus wrote: »

Apparently you don't listen, nor read the dialogue.
If so, why do you even care an npc 'reappeared' ?

That's what I'm saying.
I looked for him (and apparently missed him) and he wasn't there. So I was a little surprised to see him again later.

Also sort of cheapened my choice a bit. I think that's the part that bugged me. I agonized over that choice, seeing it not matter is a little annoying. And that wouldn't be any different if I'd encountered him in Dune like everyone says I should have.

Silver_Strider

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

Ra'Shtar

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

He never died!!!!

Abeille

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

It is not an oversight. He explains that he was able to escape, but that the other soldiers who were with him perished. It was just an illusion of choice. The big difference is that he isn't mad at you for disobeying him.

I never choose to kill him because I know what DOESN'T happen in the future: No one in Tamriel ever used a circlet to control all Mer. Therefore, the circlet either couldn't do that and it was just a rumor, or Raz finds another way to destroy it later. I wasn't about to let a bunch of soldiers die for a piece of metal that I knew was never going to do any harm to the Dominion. Perks of playing a game set in the past on a franchise, I guess.

dagonbeer

To be fair, he

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Also sort of cheapened my choice a bit. I think that's the part that bugged me. I agonized over that choice, seeing it not matter is a little annoying. And that wouldn't be any different if I'd encountered him in Dune like everyone says I should have.

I thought the same as you, but was glad to see him alive all the same. Guess we shouldn't deny NPCs feats of impossible heroics when we perform them all the time.

Ritzey01

WOW at the rudeness of most of these answers!

Tryxus

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

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Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

He never died!!!!

Yup, good ol' Raz knows what he's doing every time, so I chose to destroy the circlet and was happy to see him again in Dune. Always listen to him

Except during a certain quest that involves a Dunmer... I did as he said at first, but in the end I didn't listen to him

Abeille

I think it would be nice if ZOS added a choice to ask him about it in the Gold Coast. It could be something like "How did you escape that ruin, again?", and he could say "You want to listen to Raz's tale again? It seems that Raz's friend wasn't paying attention last time in Dune".

ShedsHisTail

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

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Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

He never died!!!!

That's exactly my point.
The dialogue made such a big deal about how his death is certain if you leave him down there, about how there's no way out, how he is absolutely going to die. Then the next time you see him he's like, "Oh, yeah, so no big thang, yo."

What's the point of making it such dramatic decision if it's not going to mean anything? Wouldn't have even been hard to code in a placeholder NPC for player's who let him die.

Tryxus

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

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Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

He never died!!!!

That's exactly my point.
The dialogue much such a big deal about how his death is certain if you leave him down there, about how there's no way out, how he is absolutely going to die. Then the next time you see him he's like, "Oh, yeah, so no big thang, yo."

What's the point of making it such dramatic decision if it's not going to mean anything? Wouldn't have even ben heard to code in a placeholder NPC for player's who let him die.

The point being to bring forth emotions in the player: making a difficult choice to either kill a loveable NPC or potentially doom the Dominion.

And ofc since Raz has a cult following (Order of the Simple Khajiit), ZOS decided to keep him alive no matter what the decision

Hail Sithis

Lenikus

Fine, let me close this thread.

Scene 1:
Person rushes trough the quest without reading or caring about the dialogues. Assumes character left for dead, pretty accurate.

Scene 2:
Doesn't follow up the quests, and skips unrepeat'able explanatory dialogue once again.

Scene 3:
Gets confused as there 'is no explanation' about something that just happened

Why did anyone feel the need of making a forum thread about it ?

ShedsHisTail

Tryxus wrote: »

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ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

He never died!!!!

That's exactly my point.
The dialogue much such a big deal about how his death is certain if you leave him down there, about how there's no way out, how he is absolutely going to die. Then the next time you see him he's like, "Oh, yeah, so no big thang, yo."

What's the point of making it such dramatic decision if it's not going to mean anything? Wouldn't have even ben heard to code in a placeholder NPC for player's who let him die.

The point being to bring forth emotions in the player: making a difficult choice to either kill a loveable NPC or potentially doom the Dominion.

Which is fine. But when that choice ultimately ends up being pointless. That's annoying.

Ultimately, since I did the quest where he dies during Cadwell's Gold, I chocked it up to something that happened in the illusion or vision or whatever you want to call it and pretended I'd never met him before. But, that's a little broken too, since other characters I met during Silver and Gold claim to remember me.

Which is another question... Are Silver and Gold actual things your character does? Or is it like an elaborate dream that Cadwell puts you into just so you can see the other side of things?

Abeille

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

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Tryxus wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

He never died!!!!

That's exactly my point.
The dialogue much such a big deal about how his death is certain if you leave him down there, about how there's no way out, how he is absolutely going to die. Then the next time you see him he's like, "Oh, yeah, so no big thang, yo."

What's the point of making it such dramatic decision if it's not going to mean anything? Wouldn't have even ben heard to code in a placeholder NPC for player's who let him die.

The point being to bring forth emotions in the player: making a difficult choice to either kill a loveable NPC or potentially doom the Dominion.

Which is fine. But when that choice ultimately ends up being pointless. That's annoying.

Ultimately, since I did the quest where he dies during Cadwell's Gold, I chocked it up to something that happened in the illusion or vision or whatever you want to call it and pretended I'd never met him before. But, that's a little broken too, since other characters I met during Silver and Gold claim to remember me.

Which is another question... Are Silver and Gold actual things your character does? Or is it like an elaborate dream that Cadwell puts you into just so you can see the other side of things?

I think it is NOT actual things your character does, but the characters you meet DO remember you as if you did those things.

A theory: It works exactly like a Spinner's Tale. You remember the Wilderqueen quest line in Greenshade, right? Aranyas remember you as her childhood friend because you entered her story, but you never actually were there for her when she was a child.

drumbendrum_ESO

I can only assume that you didn't take the portal to coldharbor and didn't allow the quest line to bring you there.

Instead you had a friend warp there and you wayshrined to them....tsk tsk tsk....but I aint mad at ya cause I hardly read any of this stuff either

ShedsHisTail

Abeille wrote: »

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ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

He never died!!!!

That's exactly my point.
The dialogue much such a big deal about how his death is certain if you leave him down there, about how there's no way out, how he is absolutely going to die. Then the next time you see him he's like, "Oh, yeah, so no big thang, yo."

What's the point of making it such dramatic decision if it's not going to mean anything? Wouldn't have even ben heard to code in a placeholder NPC for player's who let him die.

The point being to bring forth emotions in the player: making a difficult choice to either kill a loveable NPC or potentially doom the Dominion.

Which is fine. But when that choice ultimately ends up being pointless. That's annoying.

Ultimately, since I did the quest where he dies during Cadwell's Gold, I chocked it up to something that happened in the illusion or vision or whatever you want to call it and pretended I'd never met him before. But, that's a little broken too, since other characters I met during Silver and Gold claim to remember me.

Which is another question... Are Silver and Gold actual things your character does? Or is it like an elaborate dream that Cadwell puts you into just so you can see the other side of things?

I think it is NOT actual things your character does, but the characters you meet DO remember you as if you did those things.

A theory: It works exactly like a Spinner's Tale. You remember the Wilderqueen quest line in Greenshade, right? Aranyas remember you as her childhood friend because you entered her story, but you never actually were there for her when she was a child.

Yeah, I remember it.
I mean, I guess that works on the small scale, but these folks are remembering you as the hero who saved the world... Like a week ago.

ShedsHisTail

drumbendrum_ESO wrote: »

I can only assume that you didn't take the portal to coldharbor and didn't allow the quest line to bring you there.

Instead you had a friend warp there and you wayshrined to them....tsk tsk tsk....but I aint mad at ya cause I hardly read any of this stuff either

No, as I explained, I did it in Cadwell's Gold.
There is no portal to Coldharbor from there, you just get sucked back to the Harborage and talk to Cadwell.
Maybe that's why I missed him, got auto-ported at quest completion.

Abeille

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

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Abeille wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

He never died!!!!

That's exactly my point.
The dialogue much such a big deal about how his death is certain if you leave him down there, about how there's no way out, how he is absolutely going to die. Then the next time you see him he's like, "Oh, yeah, so no big thang, yo."

What's the point of making it such dramatic decision if it's not going to mean anything? Wouldn't have even ben heard to code in a placeholder NPC for player's who let him die.

The point being to bring forth emotions in the player: making a difficult choice to either kill a loveable NPC or potentially doom the Dominion.

Which is fine. But when that choice ultimately ends up being pointless. That's annoying.

Ultimately, since I did the quest where he dies during Cadwell's Gold, I chocked it up to something that happened in the illusion or vision or whatever you want to call it and pretended I'd never met him before. But, that's a little broken too, since other characters I met during Silver and Gold claim to remember me.

Which is another question... Are Silver and Gold actual things your character does? Or is it like an elaborate dream that Cadwell puts you into just so you can see the other side of things?

I think it is NOT actual things your character does, but the characters you meet DO remember you as if you did those things.

A theory: It works exactly like a Spinner's Tale. You remember the Wilderqueen quest line in Greenshade, right? Aranyas remember you as her childhood friend because you entered her story, but you never actually were there for her when she was a child.

Yeah, I remember it.
I mean, I guess that works on the small scale, but these folks are remembering you as the hero who saved the world... Like a week ago.

I imagine that other people did what they remember you doing, and even they did it themselves but remember you being there. And maybe exactly because it didn't happen so long ago they have a harder time telling what was real and what was not than Aranyas. Also, the result of Aranyas's story was completely different from reality because of you, while I imagine that everything in Gold and Silver have the same result in the end, so that might be another reason too.

Silver_Strider

Abeille wrote: »

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Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yeah, I never got that either.
I mean, I know that Gates of Fire is a side quest but that shouldn't mean that he should be there at the end of the Reaper's March questline or even in past areas if I chose to let him die. It feels like an oversight in the game.

It is not an oversight. He explains that he was able to escape, but that the other soldiers who were with him perished. It was just an illusion of choice. The big difference is that he isn't mad at you for disobeying him.

I never choose to kill him because I know what DOESN'T happen in the future: No one in Tamriel ever used a circlet to control all Mer. Therefore, the circlet either couldn't do that and it was just a rumor, or Raz finds another way to destroy it later. I wasn't about to let a bunch of soldiers die for a piece of metal that I knew was never going to do any harm to the Dominion. Perks of playing a game set in the past on a franchise, I guess.

I don't remember anyone saying that he escaped, not even Razum Dar himself and I didn't skip any of the Dialogue either. On my 1st playthru of a game, I usually make it a point to talk with all NPCs be they just random characters or important NPCs and everyone I spoke to seemed upset that Razum Dar was gone, so for him to show up was unexpected to me as I was sure he was dead and nothing anyone said convinced me otherwise. I saw it as an oversight, nothing more.

Ilsabet

Heh, I just posted about this in my character's fanficcy headcanon thing (shameless plug).

Of course that's from my character's perspective just after making the decision, not knowing what's going to happen later. In real life I couldn't finish the quest without looking up spoilers to find out what was going to happen. I might have still gone for the "greater good" choice, but it was easier knowing that he doesn't actually die.

I get the annoyance factor with choices not having real lasting consequences, but I chalk that up to the limitations of a game where a lot of people are playing through the same quests and there has to be some streamlining so that people don't end up with wildly diverging storylines. Honestly I'm quite impressed with how the game does acknowledge choices made, even if it's just in passing dialogue and the way certain quest lines unfold. Maybe it's not as individualized as a single-player game would be, but then it's not a single-player game.

In this case I do wish there had been more of a mention of Raz's passing after the fact. I think the only times it came up were in a quest where another Eye agent needed me to find some stuff that had gotten dumped in the river (and remarked that it was harder for the Eyes to keep things together without Raz) and a passing comment from Ayrenn the second or third time I saw her after the Gates of Fire quest. And then he just randomly shows up in the background while I'm on the way to the Two Moons Dance, which was pretty anticlimactic as reveals go.

I also didn't get the full story of Raz's escape in the celebration dialogue, which was weird and disappointing. I had to go find footage on youtube to see the whole thing. I don't know if it was because it was a vet zone or what, but the weirder thing about that was that all he said was that I should talk to Ayrenn about a new mission (which is the precursor to the Coldharbour invasion which I wasn't going to be doing so that whole aspect didn't make any sense to include in the dialogue at all).

But um yeah, Raz rox. If he shows up in Dark Brotherhood somewhere I may need to consider actually going for that.

Tryxus

Ilsabet wrote: »

But um yeah, Raz rox. If he shows up in Dark Brotherhood somewhere I may need to consider actually going for that.

He does. 2 Quests