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Changes to Death Stroke and Teleport Strike in DB

Autolycus
Autolycus
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This isn't a rage thread, and I'm not formulating an official opinion in this post. My intent is purely speculative - I aim to understand why the change was made specifically the way it is mentioned, as opposed to a similar change which would not adversely impact some NBs. I am not calling this change a nerf, and I'm not considering it as such, purely because it is accompanied by other changes which can be considered a positive change or "buff." I'm considering this a rebalance for the sake of having a constructive discussion.

Assassination
Death Stroke: Reduced the damage of this ability and its morphs by 4.5%.
Incapacitating Strike (Death Stroke morph): This morph now always stuns the target when it is used, regardless of the caster’s health. This morph now also deals Disease Damage instead of Magic Damage.

Teleport Strike: Reduced the damage of this ability and its morphs by 6.5%.

Changing many of the stamina versions of NB skills to deal disease damage is a highly sought change, and is anxiously anticipated by the majority of the stamblade population (to my knowledge). It seems reasonable to me that, assuming there was a fair amount of research and testing involved, these skills may have needed to be cut back in the damage department to some extent to accommodate for the overall damage potential of each skill after we account for the buffs they will now be getting from CP placement.

My question is: Why was this particular "rebalance" applied to the base version of the skills, which now adversely impacts magicka builds?

In my experience (and the opinions of many other magblades I know, but certainly not a credible source to deem as a valid majority opinion) Death Stroke (aka Soul Harvest) was already an underpowered ultimate relative to the many other options. It is primarily useful for farming ultimate (for example, on an aoe bar for trash pulls) and for execute phases on bosses (when no better alternative is available). Soul Harvest itself is rarely used in any other pve setting, per my own experience, and the general opinion of the population here on the forums. It has its usefulness in pvp for gank builds and in duels, though I am not sure I can say one way or another as it pertains to it's relative power (in other words, I haven't seen a reason for it to be reduced, nor have I personally felt it was underpowered in pvp).

My own best guess here is that it was "rebalanced" as a direct result of pvp "imbalance." For months and months we (the community) have quite loudly expressed our concerns for Teleport Strike in pvp, although it has almost exclusively been directed at Ambush specifically, due to its ability to self-empower. Lotus Fan itself has, for some time, been labeled as a gap closer only, and its utility doesn't extend much farther than that. I have incorporated Lotus Fan into my build (in both a duel and large-scale setting) and determined it to be a far inferior skill to slot in most settings, except for zergbuster builds (which not everyone likes to play). There are some exceptions, of course, and I'm not trying to intentionally discredit or neglect any particular build. Lotus Fan can be a great combination with certain DoT-focused builds and in proper rotations.

So what's the scoop here? Am I missing something, such as a change to CP or weapon/guild passives that offset this damage reduction for magblades, or it simply a straight reduction to damage for both skills on this front?
Edited by Autolycus on May 31, 2016 8:58PM
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
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    Man I love your posts so detailed and full of good rhetoric...

    Anyways the nerfs were really unesccisary especially the death stroke nerf since its a single target skill It needed to hit hard to make the opportunity cost better than Dawnbreaker.

    I do adore the disease dmg morphs however even though most people wanted posion dmg. I think the disease fits the NB theme more.
    Edited by Anti_Virus on June 1, 2016 4:05AM
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
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    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    You forgot to mention that Leap, and Sweeps are both AoE ultimates.
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • bowmanz607
    bowmanz607
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    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    Leap is a ranged aoe cc and damage.

    Overload can be used multiple times and is ranged

    Sweep is an aoe with a dot attached. (Although damage is lacking imo)

    Death stroke is single target everything.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    I believe that I have been very objective thus far, for the record. The OP could have easily been a rage post, but the intent here was to gain insight from the community, not cause a ruckus.

    To summarize your point as it pertains specifically to a magblade, Soul Harvest hits too hard in pvp, and that merits a reduction. I do find this interesting and I won't outright disagree. I have hit many people with Soul Harvest in pvp and used it to win a fight.

    However, you claim a 13k hit on Soul Harvest... when I can crit for 14k with my Swallow Soul. That's a spammable, extremely low-cost skill that also heals me, generates ultimate, and passively boosts my healing received. Why does it hit harder than Soul Harvest, if this ultimate is so overpowered? Like I mentioned in the OP, most people I know use it for the passive ult regen and little else. It finds its way into my pvp build, but not because of its superior damage.

    Also, compared to something like Lethal Arrow, the Major Defile component of Soul Harvest is of a very short duration. It has all of the benefits of Soul Harvest (minus the ult gen), except does them way better, especially considering with lethal arrow you can be 30m away and still reap the same benefits, without any of the risk of being melee. I know many archers in pvp who will snipe (not even from stealth) and crit other players for 15-17k. All of this together makes the argument against Soul Harvest look fairly dull.

    Until DB, many NBs were shifting over to Incap Strike specifically because of the stun component for pvp. Now magblades can't really do that (at least it isn't supported by the soundest of logic), which just makes me question it more. If the aim was to balance it out in pvp, then why is the pve-favored morph seeing reductions with no offsets? It's not like magblades were pulling highest dps relative to every other class and build, and the sole reason was Soul Harvest.

    I don't consider myself an ignorant individual. I recognize that there are many who share in your opinion of magblades. Let's assume that the reductions to both skills were sorely needed for pvp, and we all accept that. Where is the pve offset?

    Last I checked, magblade dps in pve falls behind stam DKs, magicka DKs, magicka Templars, stam NBs, magicka Sorc, and even many stam sorcs (especially in this update). This is the primary reason for my inquiry. I win more fights in Cyrodiil with Prolonged Suffering and light attacks than I ever have with Soul Harvest.
    Edited by Autolycus on June 1, 2016 2:39PM
  • Strider_Roshin
    Strider_Roshin
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    ✭✭✭
    Dawnbreaker does twice as much damage, passively increases your weapon damage, and hits multiple targets. Yeah death stroke did not need a nerf, and neither did ambush since it is greatly outclassed by crit rush in both damage and cost. There are moves in this game that are outperforming, and theses moves weren't them.
    And when I vest my flashing sword, and my hand takes hold in judgement, I will take vengeance upon mine enemies, and I will repay those who hase me. O Lord, raise me to Thy right hand and count me among Thy saints.
  • Killa4hire89
    Killa4hire89
    ✭✭
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    You forgot to mention that Leap, and Sweeps are both AoE ultimates.

    Yes, they are both aoe and both do less damage and DO NOT give any buffs OR debuffs to the enemy along with cost more than soul harvest/incap.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    I believe that I have been very objective thus far, for the record. The OP could have easily been a rage post, but the intent here was to gain insight from the community, not cause a ruckus.

    To summarize your point as it pertains specifically to a magblade, Soul Harvest hits too hard in pvp, and that merits a reduction. I do find this interesting and I won't outright disagree. I have hit many people with Soul Harvest in pvp and used it to win a fight.

    However, you claim a 13k hit on Soul Harvest... when I can crit for 14k with my Swallow Soul. That's a spammable, extremely low-cost skill that also heals me, generates ultimate, and passively boosts my healing received. Why does it hit harder than Soul Harvest, if this ultimate is so overpowered? Like I mentioned in the OP, most people I know use it for the passive ult regen and little else. It finds its way into my pvp build, but not because of its superior damage.

    Also, compared to something like Lethal Arrow, the Major Defile component of Soul Harvest is of a very short duration. It has all of the benefits of Soul Harvest (minus the ult gen), except does them way better, especially considering with lethal arrow you can be 30m away and still reap the same benefits, without any of the risk of being melee. I know many archers in pvp who will snipe (not even from stealth) and crit other players for 15-17k. All of this together makes the argument against Soul Harvest look fairly dull.

    Until DB, many NBs were shifting over to Incap Strike specifically because of the stun component for pvp. Now magblades can't really do that (at least it isn't supported by the soundest of logic), which just makes me question it more. If the aim was to balance it out in pvp, then why is the pve-favored morph seeing reductions with no offsets? It's not like magblades were pulling highest dps relative to every other class and build, and the sole reason was Soul Harvest.

    I don't consider myself an ignorant individual. I recognize that there are many who share in your opinion of magblades. Let's assume that the reductions to both skills were sorely needed for pvp, and we all accept that. Where is the pve offset?

    Last I checked, magblade dps in pve falls behind stam DKs, magicka DKs, magicka Templars, stam NBs, magicka Sorc, and even many stam sorcs (especially in this update). This is the primary reason for my inquiry. I win more fights in Cyrodiil with Prolonged Suffering and light attacks than I ever have with Soul Harvest.

    First, im sorry but there is NO WAY you are hitting 14k funnel healthy in pvp. Maybe PVE however PvP ur damage is reduced by 50% plus cp mitigation.

    Second comparing death stroke to lethal arrow makes no sense. Yes lethal arrow gives defile but you must charge lethal and it has to hit. Plus I have not been hit for over 8k lethal arrow in PvP in some time.

    Third, every class can pve dps competitively, and specifically magblade has one of the best pve dps rotations in game. Stamblade lacks a little but is still very good. Think we can all agree that these changes weren't made for pve.

    As far as the aoe to single target debate in PvP single target burst wins, and THE BEST class ultimate in the game for single target burst is death stroke bar none. When you consider the cost versus the pitential damage output only ultate even close is overload, and itcan be dodged, reflected, blocked, silenced, and is probably the slowest animation in game aside from dark flare.

    These are sorely needed changes.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    You forgot to mention that Leap, and Sweeps are both AoE ultimates.

    Yes, they are both aoe and both do less damage and DO NOT give any buffs OR debuffs to the enemy along with cost more than soul harvest/incap.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    I believe that I have been very objective thus far, for the record. The OP could have easily been a rage post, but the intent here was to gain insight from the community, not cause a ruckus.

    To summarize your point as it pertains specifically to a magblade, Soul Harvest hits too hard in pvp, and that merits a reduction. I do find this interesting and I won't outright disagree. I have hit many people with Soul Harvest in pvp and used it to win a fight.

    However, you claim a 13k hit on Soul Harvest... when I can crit for 14k with my Swallow Soul. That's a spammable, extremely low-cost skill that also heals me, generates ultimate, and passively boosts my healing received. Why does it hit harder than Soul Harvest, if this ultimate is so overpowered? Like I mentioned in the OP, most people I know use it for the passive ult regen and little else. It finds its way into my pvp build, but not because of its superior damage.

    Also, compared to something like Lethal Arrow, the Major Defile component of Soul Harvest is of a very short duration. It has all of the benefits of Soul Harvest (minus the ult gen), except does them way better, especially considering with lethal arrow you can be 30m away and still reap the same benefits, without any of the risk of being melee. I know many archers in pvp who will snipe (not even from stealth) and crit other players for 15-17k. All of this together makes the argument against Soul Harvest look fairly dull.

    Until DB, many NBs were shifting over to Incap Strike specifically because of the stun component for pvp. Now magblades can't really do that (at least it isn't supported by the soundest of logic), which just makes me question it more. If the aim was to balance it out in pvp, then why is the pve-favored morph seeing reductions with no offsets? It's not like magblades were pulling highest dps relative to every other class and build, and the sole reason was Soul Harvest.

    I don't consider myself an ignorant individual. I recognize that there are many who share in your opinion of magblades. Let's assume that the reductions to both skills were sorely needed for pvp, and we all accept that. Where is the pve offset?

    Last I checked, magblade dps in pve falls behind stam DKs, magicka DKs, magicka Templars, stam NBs, magicka Sorc, and even many stam sorcs (especially in this update). This is the primary reason for my inquiry. I win more fights in Cyrodiil with Prolonged Suffering and light attacks than I ever have with Soul Harvest.

    First, im sorry but there is NO WAY you are hitting 14k funnel healthy in pvp. Maybe PVE however PvP ur damage is reduced by 50% plus cp mitigation.

    Second comparing death stroke to lethal arrow makes no sense. Yes lethal arrow gives defile but you must charge lethal and it has to hit. Plus I have not been hit for over 8k lethal arrow in PvP in some time.

    Third, every class can pve dps competitively, and specifically magblade has one of the best pve dps rotations in game. Stamblade lacks a little but is still very good. Think we can all agree that these changes weren't made for pve.

    As far as the aoe to single target debate in PvP single target burst wins, and THE BEST class ultimate in the game for single target burst is death stroke bar none. When you consider the cost versus the pitential damage output only ultate even close is overload, and itcan be dodged, reflected, blocked, silenced, and is probably the slowest animation in game aside from dark flare.

    These are sorely needed changes.

    All due respect, if you're only getting hit by 8k snipes, either your opponents are not building properly as archers, or you have invested a considerable amount into both block and resistance mitigation. And yes, 14k swallow souls in pvp. This isn't my first rodeo; I've been play this character for two years now. You act like I am foreign to pvp, which is an assumption you cannot reasonable and logically make.

    Soul Harvest can be dodged, silenced, and blocked as well. It happens all the time, especially with the additions of sets that encourage dodge rolling (there are multiple now). Using it against any target with a shield now has higher risk associated with it, because now, it being blocked by your opponent makes their next power bash stronger.

    In fact, a great deal of abilities that people claim are not dodgeable actually are. The key is timing and a high level of awareness.

    If you believe magblade dps is at the top of the list, I am inclined to believe that your experience with magblades in pve is limited. Stamblades outpace magblades pre-DB by a few thousand dps, and in DB that disparity increases due to the changes to NB stam skills dealing disease damage.

    None of this is really my point though, so I'll re-emphasize it here:
    Let's assume that the reductions to both skills were needed for pvp, and we all accept that. Where is the pve offset?
    The primary theme of this discussion is not about whether the reductions were necessary in pvp; rather, it is about where the offsets for that damage reduction are in pve. Are there any? Where will magblades turn to in order to make up for this difference? Lotus Fan is not largely used in a pve rotation (unless you're a tank, in which case the question still stands, because tanks in this update are supposed to be cranking out more damage,) but 4.5% damage reduction during execute phases does matter.
    Edited by Autolycus on June 1, 2016 4:30PM
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Killa4hire89

    DB does more dmg than Incap plus it can passivly add WD, deals extra dmg to werewolfs/vamps and is a cone AoE so it can't be dodged.

    Leap also deals more dmg and is an AoE(although it can be dodged) it can travel far(into keeps) the other morph can give a dmg shield.

    Templars ult is also and AoE and guess what? It cost 75 ult only a different of 25 to cast and could give dmg mitigation the more enemies that are hit.


    Death stroke didn't need a nerf.
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    You forgot to mention that Leap, and Sweeps are both AoE ultimates.

    Yes, they are both aoe and both do less damage and DO NOT give any buffs OR debuffs to the enemy along with cost more than soul harvest/incap.
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    I believe that I have been very objective thus far, for the record. The OP could have easily been a rage post, but the intent here was to gain insight from the community, not cause a ruckus.

    To summarize your point as it pertains specifically to a magblade, Soul Harvest hits too hard in pvp, and that merits a reduction. I do find this interesting and I won't outright disagree. I have hit many people with Soul Harvest in pvp and used it to win a fight.

    However, you claim a 13k hit on Soul Harvest... when I can crit for 14k with my Swallow Soul. That's a spammable, extremely low-cost skill that also heals me, generates ultimate, and passively boosts my healing received. Why does it hit harder than Soul Harvest, if this ultimate is so overpowered? Like I mentioned in the OP, most people I know use it for the passive ult regen and little else. It finds its way into my pvp build, but not because of its superior damage.

    Also, compared to something like Lethal Arrow, the Major Defile component of Soul Harvest is of a very short duration. It has all of the benefits of Soul Harvest (minus the ult gen), except does them way better, especially considering with lethal arrow you can be 30m away and still reap the same benefits, without any of the risk of being melee. I know many archers in pvp who will snipe (not even from stealth) and crit other players for 15-17k. All of this together makes the argument against Soul Harvest look fairly dull.

    Until DB, many NBs were shifting over to Incap Strike specifically because of the stun component for pvp. Now magblades can't really do that (at least it isn't supported by the soundest of logic), which just makes me question it more. If the aim was to balance it out in pvp, then why is the pve-favored morph seeing reductions with no offsets? It's not like magblades were pulling highest dps relative to every other class and build, and the sole reason was Soul Harvest.

    I don't consider myself an ignorant individual. I recognize that there are many who share in your opinion of magblades. Let's assume that the reductions to both skills were sorely needed for pvp, and we all accept that. Where is the pve offset?

    Last I checked, magblade dps in pve falls behind stam DKs, magicka DKs, magicka Templars, stam NBs, magicka Sorc, and even many stam sorcs (especially in this update). This is the primary reason for my inquiry. I win more fights in Cyrodiil with Prolonged Suffering and light attacks than I ever have with Soul Harvest.

    First, im sorry but there is NO WAY you are hitting 14k funnel healthy in pvp. Maybe PVE however PvP ur damage is reduced by 50% plus cp mitigation.

    Hmmm, try this:

    1 mundus shadow + full julianos + will power and something else (Kena + MS sharpened staff) 7 light

    Now try, grim focus + entropy + shadowy disguise and Funnel Health.

    How much did you hit?

    And that's only one way to get those numbers
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    First, im sorry but there is NO WAY you are hitting 14k funnel healthy in pvp. Maybe PVE however PvP ur damage is reduced by 50% plus cp mitigation.

    Hmmm, try this:

    1 mundus shadow + full julianos + will power and something else (Kena + MS sharpened staff) 7 light

    Now try, grim focus + entropy + shadowy disguise and Funnel Health.

    How much did you hit?

    And that's only one way to get those numbers

    It's interesting to see another setup so similar to mine :)
    I really feel that the Shadow, Kena, and vMA destro (sharpened) are integral parts of my pvp build.
    Edited by Autolycus on June 1, 2016 4:19PM
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    First, im sorry but there is NO WAY you are hitting 14k funnel healthy in pvp. Maybe PVE however PvP ur damage is reduced by 50% plus cp mitigation.

    Hmmm, try this:

    1 mundus shadow + full julianos + will power and something else (Kena + MS sharpened staff) 7 light

    Now try, grim focus + entropy + shadowy disguise and Funnel Health.

    How much did you hit?

    And that's only one way to get those numbers

    That's actually very similar to my pvp setup. For my build, using the Shadow, Kena, and vMA destro are integral parts of the setup, and are accredited the majority of the power this build wields.

    Yup, I've been working in something similar to that but instead of Strife I'm using full heavy attack.

    It hits like a truck (30K in PvE, 10-14K in PvP). Medium without empower get around 8K in PvP, and light around 2 K.

    It is an interesting approach for mageblades and quite different from the melee and AoE build
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    I believe that I have been very objective thus far, for the record. The OP could have easily been a rage post, but the intent here was to gain insight from the community, not cause a ruckus.

    To summarize your point as it pertains specifically to a magblade, Soul Harvest hits too hard in pvp, and that merits a reduction. I do find this interesting and I won't outright disagree. I have hit many people with Soul Harvest in pvp and used it to win a fight.

    However, you claim a 13k hit on Soul Harvest... when I can crit for 14k with my Swallow Soul. That's a spammable, extremely low-cost skill that also heals me, generates ultimate, and passively boosts my healing received. Why does it hit harder than Soul Harvest, if this ultimate is so overpowered? Like I mentioned in the OP, most people I know use it for the passive ult regen and little else. It finds its way into my pvp build, but not because of its superior damage.

    Also, compared to something like Lethal Arrow, the Major Defile component of Soul Harvest is of a very short duration. It has all of the benefits of Soul Harvest (minus the ult gen), except does them way better, especially considering with lethal arrow you can be 30m away and still reap the same benefits, without any of the risk of being melee. I know many archers in pvp who will snipe (not even from stealth) and crit other players for 15-17k. All of this together makes the argument against Soul Harvest look fairly dull.

    Until DB, many NBs were shifting over to Incap Strike specifically because of the stun component for pvp. Now magblades can't really do that (at least it isn't supported by the soundest of logic), which just makes me question it more. If the aim was to balance it out in pvp, then why is the pve-favored morph seeing reductions with no offsets? It's not like magblades were pulling highest dps relative to every other class and build, and the sole reason was Soul Harvest.

    I don't consider myself an ignorant individual. I recognize that there are many who share in your opinion of magblades. Let's assume that the reductions to both skills were sorely needed for pvp, and we all accept that. Where is the pve offset?

    Last I checked, magblade dps in pve falls behind stam DKs, magicka DKs, magicka Templars, stam NBs, magicka Sorc, and even many stam sorcs (especially in this update). This is the primary reason for my inquiry. I win more fights in Cyrodiil with Prolonged Suffering and light attacks than I ever have with Soul Harvest.

    Yes, but the mag Blade is a lot of fun in PVP too. On the whole I think you're making interesting points though. As an aside I always viewed Lotus Fan as a tank/crowdbuster/magblade skill so I think they're on the right track there. Magblade also gets Sap Essence, which is by far a better skill than power extraction in my view. There are pros and cons to both, but I really feel that on the whole Nightblade is probably the best done class in the game right now. Everything just feels 'right' with it, and I actually feel torn between using different skills and skill combos. When it comes to my Sorcerers and Templars though, I feel very on the rails, and I think this is a complaint of a lot of folks.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    I believe that I have been very objective thus far, for the record. The OP could have easily been a rage post, but the intent here was to gain insight from the community, not cause a ruckus.

    To summarize your point as it pertains specifically to a magblade, Soul Harvest hits too hard in pvp, and that merits a reduction. I do find this interesting and I won't outright disagree. I have hit many people with Soul Harvest in pvp and used it to win a fight.

    However, you claim a 13k hit on Soul Harvest... when I can crit for 14k with my Swallow Soul. That's a spammable, extremely low-cost skill that also heals me, generates ultimate, and passively boosts my healing received. Why does it hit harder than Soul Harvest, if this ultimate is so overpowered? Like I mentioned in the OP, most people I know use it for the passive ult regen and little else. It finds its way into my pvp build, but not because of its superior damage.

    Also, compared to something like Lethal Arrow, the Major Defile component of Soul Harvest is of a very short duration. It has all of the benefits of Soul Harvest (minus the ult gen), except does them way better, especially considering with lethal arrow you can be 30m away and still reap the same benefits, without any of the risk of being melee. I know many archers in pvp who will snipe (not even from stealth) and crit other players for 15-17k. All of this together makes the argument against Soul Harvest look fairly dull.

    Until DB, many NBs were shifting over to Incap Strike specifically because of the stun component for pvp. Now magblades can't really do that (at least it isn't supported by the soundest of logic), which just makes me question it more. If the aim was to balance it out in pvp, then why is the pve-favored morph seeing reductions with no offsets? It's not like magblades were pulling highest dps relative to every other class and build, and the sole reason was Soul Harvest.

    I don't consider myself an ignorant individual. I recognize that there are many who share in your opinion of magblades. Let's assume that the reductions to both skills were sorely needed for pvp, and we all accept that. Where is the pve offset?

    Last I checked, magblade dps in pve falls behind stam DKs, magicka DKs, magicka Templars, stam NBs, magicka Sorc, and even many stam sorcs (especially in this update). This is the primary reason for my inquiry. I win more fights in Cyrodiil with Prolonged Suffering and light attacks than I ever have with Soul Harvest.

    Yes, but the mag Blade is a lot of fun in PVP too. On the whole I think you're making interesting points though. As an aside I always viewed Lotus Fan as a tank/crowdbuster/magblade skill so I think they're on the right track there. Magblade also gets Sap Essence, which is by far a better skill than power extraction in my view. There are pros and cons to both, but I really feel that on the whole Nightblade is probably the best done class in the game right now. Everything just feels 'right' with it, and I actually feel torn between using different skills and skill combos. When it comes to my Sorcerers and Templars though, I feel very on the rails, and I think this is a complaint of a lot of folks.

    Very interesting points, and thanks. Can't say I really disagree with any of that, truthfully. I can see the logic in reducing Lotus Fan in pvp, considering how it is such a key skill for NB zergbusters and tank builds, at least moreso than Soul Harvest. To an extent, I think that the reduction to Lotus Fan is counter-productive relative to the buffs to heavy armor damage, though.

    NB tanks (which is also something I do in both pve and pvp) are seeing less benefit from the buffs to heavy armor and 1H&S as the other classes as a result. Lotus Fan isn't used by tanks as a spammable damage ability, it's mostly an opener with the luxury of a minor DoT. So if the intent was to reduce damage output for NB tanks, they may have taken the wrong approach.

    I'm not certain I believe they were intentionally trying to scale back magblades. I'd sooner believe that they did it with only stamblades on their mind, and didn't actually consider the impact to magblades. Speaking to the contrary, it very well could have been their intent, and if so, my ultimate goal here is to find an effective means to fill the void.

    With the B&B of my pvp build being so independent from Soul Harvest, it's impact on my ability to pvp is minimal (a 4.5% reduction to Soul Harvest in pvp doesn't affect me much, since it's a supplementary skill). My goal here is to work around these reductions in a pve setting.
    Edited by Autolycus on June 1, 2016 4:45PM
  • Killa4hire89
    Killa4hire89
    ✭✭
    @Killa4hire89

    DB does more dmg than Incap plus it can passivly add WD, deals extra dmg to werewolfs/vamps and is a cone AoE so it can't be dodged.

    Leap also deals more dmg and is an AoE(although it can be dodged) it can travel far(into keeps) the other morph can give a dmg shield.

    Templars ult is also and AoE and guess what? It cost 75 ult only a different of 25 to cast and could give dmg mitigation the more enemies that are hit.


    Death stroke didn't need a nerf.

    You are are comparing apples and oranges. DB is a fighters guild ultimate and again costs DOUBLE what incap does and it doesn't give near the buff that incap does. Incap is I believe 6% damage increase on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds. Compared to DBs 6% (5% from DB and 1% from FG passive) weapon damage buff. Compared to other low cost CLASS ultimate from a PvP perspective it outclassed everything. You talk about leap being an aoe it costs a minimum of 110 ult (take flight) or 125 (unmorphed and ferocious leap). Not to mention you saying it hits harder than incapacitate is just not true. Max I have seen is 14k on a LA target who was running no impen. Average is about 7-8k. Which is same as incap w/o the 25% buff from CP.

    THIS WAS A GOOD CHANGE. NB is still the most OP class in game for both stam and magic in the current meta, and it doesn't look like it is going to change.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Killa4hire89

    DB does more dmg than Incap plus it can passivly add WD, deals extra dmg to werewolfs/vamps and is a cone AoE so it can't be dodged.

    Leap also deals more dmg and is an AoE(although it can be dodged) it can travel far(into keeps) the other morph can give a dmg shield.

    Templars ult is also and AoE and guess what? It cost 75 ult only a different of 25 to cast and could give dmg mitigation the more enemies that are hit.


    Death stroke didn't need a nerf.

    You are are comparing apples and oranges. DB is a fighters guild ultimate and again costs DOUBLE what incap does and it doesn't give near the buff that incap does. Incap is I believe 6% damage increase on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds. Compared to DBs 6% (5% from DB and 1% from FG passive) weapon damage buff. Compared to other low cost CLASS ultimate from a PvP perspective it outclassed everything. You talk about leap being an aoe it costs a minimum of 110 ult (take flight) or 125 (unmorphed and ferocious leap). Not to mention you saying it hits harder than incapacitate is just not true. Max I have seen is 14k on a LA target who was running no impen. Average is about 7-8k. Which is same as incap w/o the 25% buff from CP.
    Literally every comparison in this game is apples to oranges. It's been that way since day one. If it were always apples to apples, there would be only 1 class.

    You're quoting values on skills that are drastically lower than what I see in Cryodiil. The discrepancies you're claiming are much larger than what they actually are in practice. You say 7-8k on Dragon Leap? I see 12k on a regular basis.

    That 6% damage increase for 6s is far from unfair and is definitely not exclusive to NBs. You want to compare that to DB (which by the way is somewhat hypocritical since you claim these are apples to oranges comparisons). If you run the numbers (accounting for the fact that virtually every skill used by a stam build benefits from this 8% WD) you'd likely end up with about a 5-6% effective damage output from DB. It's really not that far off, considering this is just the passive benefit.

    I've run many analyses comparing NB skills to other class skills, and in every analysis I've run, accounting for the various Major/Minor buffs, passives, CP, with peer review, etc. each one has come out to be very close in relative power to other class skills. In other words: the classes are more balanced now than they have ever been before.

    THIS WAS A GOOD CHANGE. NB is still the most OP class in game for both stam and magic in the current meta, and it doesn't look like it is going to change.
    This is highly subjective and I suspect a case of classism. I believe your first post was the one that demanded we be objective, so please do the same.

    Again, NBs are not the strongest meta build in either stam or magicka. Stamblades are very strong contenders, but they are still outpaced by stam DKs in almost every scenario I've seen so far, including changes from this update. Magblades are outpaced by all other magicka classes, remaining competitive only with magicka sorcs in some cases. Magplars and magDKs are way ahead in the magicka race for pve.

    Still, what I'm looking for here is not a debate about why anyone likes or dislikes these changes in pvp. The goal here is to seek alternatives to fill that damage gap in pve.
    Edited by Autolycus on June 1, 2016 5:07PM
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Killa4hire89

    DB does more dmg than Incap plus it can passivly add WD, deals extra dmg to werewolfs/vamps and is a cone AoE so it can't be dodged.

    Leap also deals more dmg and is an AoE(although it can be dodged) it can travel far(into keeps) the other morph can give a dmg shield.

    Templars ult is also and AoE and guess what? It cost 75 ult only a different of 25 to cast and could give dmg mitigation the more enemies that are hit.


    Death stroke didn't need a nerf.

    You are are comparing apples and oranges. DB is a fighters guild ultimate and again costs DOUBLE what incap does and it doesn't give near the buff that incap does. Incap is I believe 6% damage increase on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds. Compared to DBs 6% (5% from DB and 1% from FG passive) weapon damage buff. Compared to other low cost CLASS ultimate from a PvP perspective it outclassed everything. You talk about leap being an aoe it costs a minimum of 110 ult (take flight) or 125 (unmorphed and ferocious leap). Not to mention you saying it hits harder than incapacitate is just not true. Max I have seen is 14k on a LA target who was running no impen. Average is about 7-8k. Which is same as incap w/o the 25% buff from CP.

    THIS WAS A GOOD CHANGE. NB is still the most OP class in game for both stam and magic in the current meta, and it doesn't look like it is going to change.

    DB gets a very nice buff on FG skills slotted in the form of wpn dmg (proven that FG is a stam oriented tree). So, only slotting DB makes it increase it's base dmg (which is 3%, not 1%). Apart from that is a conal AoE that can affect more than 1 enemy. And although it cost twice ulti compared to ISTK, that number is only 100 ulti, which, I suppose, is quite easy to get for every class. So FDB gets a bonus of 8% extra wpn dmg (which is a 3.5K build means 208 extra wpnd dmg, quite close to full set of Hunding's) and DBS gets a 2.5 CC and does even more dmg

    Now, consider again FDB and think about this: expert hunter is the best skill for stam build to detect cloaked enemies and increase your crit chance at the same time, so it is almost a must in many builds. Then, 11% extra wpn dmg seems to you an inferior buff compared to ISTK?

    Because what ZOS has done is just make any single stamblade in the game to forget about ISTK and go directly to FDB as ulti. Just wait a couple of weeks before the nerf whinning begins.
    Edited by Xvorg on June 1, 2016 5:13PM
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • Killa4hire89
    Killa4hire89
    ✭✭
    You only get the passive weapon damage on DB if you choose morph that doesnt stun.

    And it is not true that magblade is outpaced by everything in pve. Magblade is very competitive and one of the best damage/utitlity classes in game.

    This was a good change and if you can't see that then you are obviously biased. If DB is better than use DB. it is in FG for a reason.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You only get the passive weapon damage on DB if you choose morph that doesnt stun.

    And it is not true that magblade is outpaced by everything in pve. Magblade is very competitive and one of the best damage/utitlity classes in game.
    Proof please.
    If DB is better than use DB. it is in FG for a reason.
    Not useful to a magblade whatsoever.
    This was a good change and if you can't see that then you are obviously biased.
    Please explain to me how this makes sense, or how this is objective. You came to this thread, which specifically asks for feedback pertaining to methods to supplement magblade pve dps to offset these changes, and have done little more than share your own classist bias thus far, which has been almost entirely focused around pvp. We have been analyzing your suggestions and they have been found wanting. Don't get salty towards others because we are still looking for an answer to the actual question that was asked.
    Edited by Autolycus on June 1, 2016 7:10PM
  • Killa4hire89
    Killa4hire89
    ✭✭
    You said in your first post that only use was for passive ult gain. There are several ultimate available to you that are good. You can use meteor, soul tether, or even warhorn or barrier for support.

    As for competitive pve dps builds for Magblade in not going to explain to you how to do it as I don't have the time. Look up deltia he gives great builds and has said that Magblade is one of best pve dps builds

    I'm not salty, I am stating the facts. This was changed specifically for PvP where it was overperforming in relation to other ultimates.

    Sorry if your offended or aggravated by what u say but it is the fact.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You said in your first post that only use was for passive ult gain. There are several ultimate available to you that are good. You can use meteor, soul tether, or even warhorn or barrier for support.

    As for competitive pve dps builds for Magblade in not going to explain to you how to do it as I don't have the time. Look up deltia he gives great builds and has said that Magblade is one of best pve dps builds

    I'm not salty, I am stating the facts. This was changed specifically for PvP where it was overperforming in relation to other ultimates.

    Sorry if your offended or aggravated by what u say but it is the fact.

    I'm not at all offended or aggravated, but somewhat amused. Never before have I asked a simple question in a mellow, constructive thread, and still had someone tout classist bias and label it as fact. I don't need you to teach me how to NB dps (lmao). This just goes to show that, no matter how many times you rephrase your question, some people will still dodge it completely.

    Also, Deltia is a great source for information pertaining to changes and additions of gear and skills, but there are better sources for current builds.
    Edited by Autolycus on June 1, 2016 8:38PM
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You only get the passive weapon damage on DB if you choose morph that doesnt stun.

    And it is not true that magblade is outpaced by everything in pve. Magblade is very competitive and one of the best damage/utitlity classes in game.

    This was a good change and if you can't see that then you are obviously biased. If DB is better than use DB. it is in FG for a reason.

    Do you think the stamblades need a stun to procs heavy dmg? The other day a Stamblade WB me and in the air he just put me a SA. To me, that guy is going to use a bar like this: Camo hunter - ambush/cloak - Dizzing swing - SA - Vigor/Rally - Ulti FDB. Or even worst. WB + SA (without the CC, you can pretty much WB and then SA twice)

    What I see, is a skill that had its niche and which now has nothing. No stamblade is going to use it in the near future because, as you said, there are better options.
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • tennant94
    tennant94
    ✭✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    I believe that I have been very objective thus far, for the record. The OP could have easily been a rage post, but the intent here was to gain insight from the community, not cause a ruckus.

    To summarize your point as it pertains specifically to a magblade, Soul Harvest hits too hard in pvp, and that merits a reduction. I do find this interesting and I won't outright disagree. I have hit many people with Soul Harvest in pvp and used it to win a fight.

    However, you claim a 13k hit on Soul Harvest... when I can crit for 14k with my Swallow Soul. That's a spammable, extremely low-cost skill that also heals me, generates ultimate, and passively boosts my healing received. Why does it hit harder than Soul Harvest, if this ultimate is so overpowered? Like I mentioned in the OP, most people I know use it for the passive ult regen and little else. It finds its way into my pvp build, but not because of its superior damage.

    Also, compared to something like Lethal Arrow, the Major Defile component of Soul Harvest is of a very short duration. It has all of the benefits of Soul Harvest (minus the ult gen), except does them way better, especially considering with lethal arrow you can be 30m away and still reap the same benefits, without any of the risk of being melee. I know many archers in pvp who will snipe (not even from stealth) and crit other players for 15-17k. All of this together makes the argument against Soul Harvest look fairly dull.

    Until DB, many NBs were shifting over to Incap Strike specifically because of the stun component for pvp. Now magblades can't really do that (at least it isn't supported by the soundest of logic), which just makes me question it more. If the aim was to balance it out in pvp, then why is the pve-favored morph seeing reductions with no offsets? It's not like magblades were pulling highest dps relative to every other class and build, and the sole reason was Soul Harvest.

    I don't consider myself an ignorant individual. I recognize that there are many who share in your opinion of magblades. Let's assume that the reductions to both skills were sorely needed for pvp, and we all accept that. Where is the pve offset?

    Last I checked, magblade dps in pve falls behind stam DKs, magicka DKs, magicka Templars, stam NBs, magicka Sorc, and even many stam sorcs (especially in this update). This is the primary reason for my inquiry. I win more fights in Cyrodiil with Prolonged Suffering and light attacks than I ever have with Soul Harvest.

    How are you hitting 14k swallow souls!? You're soul harvest must be hitting for over 20k :s
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    tennant94 wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I have to disagree with both of you, and here is why. This ultimate give major defile (reduced healing) increases your damage on EVERYTHING for 6 seconds, costs only 50 ultimate AND either A: passively boosts ultimate gain or B: Stuns on activation. That's not to mention that the skill on it's own hits like a Mac truck.

    I have been hit in PVP by a magblade with this for 13k. Now at the time of this I had approximately 20k phys resist, 23k spell resist, and 2550 critical resistance. No other ultimate can compare to this kind of damage output and low cost. Closest is overload which is easily the easiest ultimate in the game to counter.

    Lets compare low cost class ultimate. Sorc overload is great damage and lower cost but really easy to dodge. DK Dragon leap is strong but DOUBLE the cost of death stroke and is still the only ultimate in game that is literally negated by root spam. Templar crescent sweep costs more, has no cc, and does WAY less damage (if you can even get it to hit with it's buggy range).

    I am sure if you look at it objectively you will see that this adjustment was needed from a PvP point of view, where Nightblades already reign supreme.

    I believe that I have been very objective thus far, for the record. The OP could have easily been a rage post, but the intent here was to gain insight from the community, not cause a ruckus.

    To summarize your point as it pertains specifically to a magblade, Soul Harvest hits too hard in pvp, and that merits a reduction. I do find this interesting and I won't outright disagree. I have hit many people with Soul Harvest in pvp and used it to win a fight.

    However, you claim a 13k hit on Soul Harvest... when I can crit for 14k with my Swallow Soul. That's a spammable, extremely low-cost skill that also heals me, generates ultimate, and passively boosts my healing received. Why does it hit harder than Soul Harvest, if this ultimate is so overpowered? Like I mentioned in the OP, most people I know use it for the passive ult regen and little else. It finds its way into my pvp build, but not because of its superior damage.

    Also, compared to something like Lethal Arrow, the Major Defile component of Soul Harvest is of a very short duration. It has all of the benefits of Soul Harvest (minus the ult gen), except does them way better, especially considering with lethal arrow you can be 30m away and still reap the same benefits, without any of the risk of being melee. I know many archers in pvp who will snipe (not even from stealth) and crit other players for 15-17k. All of this together makes the argument against Soul Harvest look fairly dull.

    Until DB, many NBs were shifting over to Incap Strike specifically because of the stun component for pvp. Now magblades can't really do that (at least it isn't supported by the soundest of logic), which just makes me question it more. If the aim was to balance it out in pvp, then why is the pve-favored morph seeing reductions with no offsets? It's not like magblades were pulling highest dps relative to every other class and build, and the sole reason was Soul Harvest.

    I don't consider myself an ignorant individual. I recognize that there are many who share in your opinion of magblades. Let's assume that the reductions to both skills were sorely needed for pvp, and we all accept that. Where is the pve offset?

    Last I checked, magblade dps in pve falls behind stam DKs, magicka DKs, magicka Templars, stam NBs, magicka Sorc, and even many stam sorcs (especially in this update). This is the primary reason for my inquiry. I win more fights in Cyrodiil with Prolonged Suffering and light attacks than I ever have with Soul Harvest.

    How are you hitting 14k swallow souls!? You're soul harvest must be hitting for over 20k :s

    It is, yes, but not in pvp. This is a Julianos/Kena setup, using 3 willpower and vma destro. Very similar to what Xvorg mentioned earlier, but I have a different skill loadout and manage my buffs differently.
  • Killa4hire89
    Killa4hire89
    ✭✭
    Man I just don't understand you. Soul harvest is the lowest cost ult in game and still (despite tuning) hits hard.

    This is pointless
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