Heavy armour and block cost

Vangy · May 2016

Ive done up some calculations for those wondering about how to optimise a blocking build. Here's an excel file so you guys can try it out... Ive also included testing values for with and without black rose set. Do let me know if someone finds anything wrongly calculated! Hope this helps someone out there! The live block cost is about 10.8% higher based on my testing so ive factored in this change.

Basically there is 0 reason to run heavy armour cos bracing got removed and SnB skill line got the reduced block cost slightly buffed. All in all, if you keep your build exactly the same as is, you will see around 12-18% increase in block cost with DB wearing heavy armour. What's worse, is now you are going to have to give up magicka/stam cost reduction from green CP in exchange for 10% boost to damage reduction from phy/magical attacks. The buffed constitution even with black rose set is nowhere near enough to make up for the increases to block cost due to removal of bracing. The slight bit of more resistances you get isnt going to save you. You are going to be at 0 stam faster than you can say ouchie.

Imo the best solution for PvP SnB builds would be to just run 5 light with 2 heavy pieces... Now you can keep your magicka costs legitimate with 5 light yet still receive the 25% block cost reduction from theif constellation and still keep your reduced block costs cos everything that reduces block cost is no longer in heavy armour skill line LOLOLOL. Basically if you want to be a meat shield that justs stand there and holds block with 1.8k spell/weapon power unbuffed, sure go ahead and follow wrobels idea with wearing sturdy pieces and running x3 block cost enchants with full heavy armour.... Dont expect to kill an NPC in cyrodill in under 1 minute tho. Also giving up impen for sturdy is nowhere near worth it in PvP...Its far better to just run medium or light with SnB. (just my opinion based on the calculations ive done.)

EDIT: Updated with @Asayre notes. Ty!

forzajuve212 · May 2016

How is mag dk supposed to compete in PVP with these changes? @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Mag dk would be in a great place if you didnt remove 20% block cost and actually gave us cinder dodge chance and coag blood. As it stands, there is no reason to play mag dk anymore. Good job.

Asayre · May 2016

The base block cost in DB is still 2160 and cell I9 should be

=I8*(100-G9)/100

Vangy · May 2016

Asayre wrote: »
The base block cost in DB is still 2160 and cell I9 should be
=I8*(100-G9)/100

That's good to know. Ill modify my excel file. Ive heard many a few mention a 10.8% increase.

Asayre · May 2016

Base ability cost has increased by 10.8% but base block cost remains the same at 2160.

Vangy · May 2016

Asayre wrote: »

Base ability cost has increased by 10.8% but base block cost remains the same at 2160.

That puts a little of my concerns to rest. Still a net increase to block cost of around 16% without black rose and about 12% with black rose using a more realistic PvP set-up as compared to wrobels PvE fairy tale meat shield tank set up... TT.TT

Also nice catch with cell I9. Made an oversight there since fortress + bracing was 50% lol =X. @Asayre

SublimeSparo · May 2016

Ouch my block cost will go up by approximately 60% !
I didn't realise it was quite this bad

SublimeSparo · May 2016

Not even sure what to do about it

i can add one more block cost reduction jewellery enchant, and 1-2pieces of sturdy and still be 30% worse off, not to mention more stretched on magic cost reduction and regen.

Vangy · May 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Ouch my block cost will go up by approximately 60% !
I didn't realise it was quite this bad

@SublimeSparo
60%? Woah thats epic.... Out of curiosity...What variables did you input?

I can double check to see if I can help you if you tell me a few things:

for live:
1. How much % block cost reduction you have from red CP.
2. How many shield play enchants?
3. If you are in 5 heavy do you have skill points in fortress and bracing. Do you run defensive stance?

For DB:
same info as above ill need.

Oh and also if you intend to run black rose or not.

Im guessing you don't intend to put green CP into block cost reduction for DB. If this is the case, you might want to bench your block build. Because I can tell you right now that it will not be possible. You will see insane block cost increases ranging from anywhere between 50-70% lol...

SublimeSparo · May 2016

On live i run 5h-1l-1M, 5p footmans with 2 block cost reduction jewellery enchants vr14, 74points into Block expertise so about 20%,, have fortress and bracing and do run Defensive stance.
No to black rose on live or db.

For db i'm not sure how many cp i can put into block expertise, worst case scenario would be about 5% most likely 10% i guess i'll have to put in at min

damn i really liked where my build is at on live, not perfect but viable and effective for all craglorn trials and hm's and no issues in nMoL

Vangy · May 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

On live i run 5h-1l-1M, 5p footmans with 2 block cost reduction jewellery enchants vr14, 74points into Block expertise so about 20%,, have fortress and bracing and do run Defensive stance.
No to black rose on live or db.

For db i'm not sure how many cp i can put into block expertise, worst case scenario would be about 5% most likely 10% i guess i'll have to put in at min damn i really liked where my build is at on live, not perfect but viable and effective for all craglorn trials and hm's and no issues in nMoL

@SublimeSparo
Im not sure if footmans comes in v16 with DB. If they dont, then your problems will be far worse since v14 enchants are severely weaker than v16 ones making your shield play enchants that much less valuable since you will be outright paying more for block compared to v16 jewellery players. You do get slightly more block mitigation tho...

From my calculations, if you put in 5% to block cost with DB, you should see ~59% increase to block cost.

From your post, it seems you are more concerned with PvE vs PvP? If that is indeed the case then sturdy pieces will greatly help you out. You can try :

1. 15% to block cost reduction
2. 3 shield play enchants
3. 4 sturdy pieces

With the combination of above, you can achieve almost same block cost as live. Only a marginal 1 % decrease to block cost with DB. The buffed returns from constitution will help with the loss of magicka cost reduction from CP. These changes dont really hurt PvE builds. They wreck PvP builds due to the loss of impen tho.... Recrafting 4 pieces of heavy gear tho.... Ouch.... That is like 8*4 = 32 alloys... Which is about 224k minimum excluding base material cost.

SublimeSparo · May 2016

Yea it's a pve trials tank, (dungeons barely need tanks, an with nerfs to the 3 more challenging ones probably completely uneeded now)
Footmans only comes in vr14 for the foreseeable future unless they decide to scale up vDSA.
When using the spreadsheet and comparing;
20%, 2, 58, 0. With
12%, 3, 42, 3

It says 9.3% increase in block cost, am i inputting somerhing wrong somewhere?

Edit:
I entered those numbers into the black rose section and got 3.6%, but i do not use BR

SublimeSparo · May 2016

Vangy wrote: »

1. 15% to block cost reduction
2. 3 shield play enchants
3. 4 sturdy pieces

With the combination of above, you can achieve almost same block cost as live. Only a marginal 1 % decrease to block cost with DB. The buffed returns from constitution will help with the loss of magicka cost reduction from CP. These changes dont really hurt PvE builds. They wreck PvP builds due to the loss of impen tho.... Recrafting 4 pieces of heavy gear tho.... Ouch.... That is like 8*4 = 32 alloys... Which is about 224k minimum excluding base material cost.

It will cost a lot more than that on ps4 :P tempering alloys go for stupid money on console 12-15k each usually. Luckily i have nearly 100 saved up and over 4k rubedite from writs and hirelings on multiple characters, but i will need to recraft all my sets of nirn swords too

DB the buff stamina patch, where we nerfed the shite out of tanks and magic builds because reasons. Cheers ZoS

Vangy · May 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Yea it's a pve trials tank, (dungeons barely need tanks, an with nerfs to the 3 more challenging ones probably completely uneeded now)
Footmans only comes in vr14 for the foreseeable future unless they decide to scale up vDSA.
When using the spreadsheet and comparing;
20%, 2, 58, 0. With
12%, 3, 42, 3

It says 9.3% increase in block cost, am i inputting somerhing wrong somewhere?

Edit:
I entered those numbers into the black rose section and got 3.6%, but i do not use BR

@SublimeSparo
yup with 12% from CP, 3 shield play enchants, 42% from fortress and defensive stance + 3 sturdy pieces, you will see a 9.3% increase to block cost. You did key them in correctly based on my double check.

You'd need :
1. 15% to block cost reduction
2. 3 shield play enchants
3. 4 sturdy pieces

Coupled with defensive stance and fortress to keep current live block costs for your build.

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

1. 15% to block cost reduction
2. 3 shield play enchants
3. 4 sturdy pieces

With the combination of above, you can achieve almost same block cost as live. Only a marginal 1 % decrease to block cost with DB. The buffed returns from constitution will help with the loss of magicka cost reduction from CP. These changes dont really hurt PvE builds. They wreck PvP builds due to the loss of impen tho.... Recrafting 4 pieces of heavy gear tho.... Ouch.... That is like 8*4 = 32 alloys... Which is about 224k minimum excluding base material cost.

It will cost a lot more than that on ps4 :P tempering alloys go for stupid money on console 12-15k each usually. Luckily i have nearly 100 saved up and over 4k rubedite from writs and hirelings on multiple characters, but i will need to recraft all my sets of nirn swords too
DB the buff stamina patch, where we nerfed the shite out of tanks and magic builds because reasons. Cheers ZoS

Also yeah, im in the same boat. Luckily I had around 100+ tempers and 3k alloys saved up. That's the only reason im still considering playing a tanky build for PvP. If not, the current changes just favour abandoning heavy armour all together. Literally everything that reduces block cost is now no longer in the heavy armour tree thereby rendering heavy armour near useless except for PvE.

SublimeSparo · May 2016

Can't craft footmans so can't make 2 bits sturdy, leaves 5, 2 of which are a monster set, so at best can recraft 3 pieces sturdy.
Or maybe i'll just give up tanking, bored of all these pointless recrafts on the whims of the developers just to remain at the same level.
But wrath you say, all that wd is making me giddy, 2.5k punctures instead of 2k. Hooray! /s

Vangy · May 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Can't craft footmans so can't make 2 bits sturdy, leaves 5, 2 of which are a monster set, so at best can recraft 3 pieces sturdy.
Or maybe i'll just give up tanking, bored of all these pointless recrafts on the whims of the developers just to remain at the same level.
But wrath you say, all that wd is making me giddy, 2.5k punctures instead of 2k. Hooray! /s

@SublimeSparo
I'd say abandon footmans. Its a v14 set that really doesnt provide much. Get a nice shiny v16 3 or 5 piece to replace it. The v16 block cost reduction enchants will somewhat mitigate your loss of footmans block cost reduction. I had to replace all 5 pieces of golden heavy v16 gear to make my tanky PvP build viable for DB =((.... cost me around 400k lol (including the gold value of tempers I used)....

Can't fault you if you drop tanking tho. Close to 80% of my tank friends are now DD cos tanking just gets hit every patch lol.

SublimeSparo · May 2016

I did test 5 tavas, 2 endurance, 2 bloodspawn, 2 hist bark and 3 potentates, and as potentates is getting bumped to vr16 it might be cool, it just felt a lot squishier than 5 histbark 5 footmans and 2 bloodspawn, and casting shuffle a lot is a fairly large stam drain although the tavas was only vr15 for testing and everything purple. I guess at vr16 and with the extra red CP i can make up for the loss of the reinforced traits and get back to mit cap, but going to need lots more tempers for all thus shenanigans, not to mention more haekijos n kutas

Vangy · May 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

I did test 5 tavas, 2 endurance, 2 bloodspawn, 2 hist bark and 3 potentates, and as potentates is getting bumped to vr16 it might be cool, it just felt a lot squishier than 5 histbark 5 footmans and 2 bloodspawn, and casting shuffle a lot is a fairly large stam drain although the tavas was only vr15 for testing and everything purple. I guess at vr16 and with the extra red CP i can make up for the loss of the reinforced traits and get back to mit cap, but going to need lots more tempers for all thus shenanigans, not to mention more haekijos n kutas

@SublimeSparo
You would be able to drop ults left and right tho.. with potentates and bloodspawn =S
All the best man. Im sure we can make it work, but was all this really necessary is the question im left with..... Why the heck did ZOS remove bracing from heavy armour... it was the one single thing that made heavy armour reasonable....... I dont really care for the new wrath passive.... Its neigh useless compared to bracing.... If they are afraid of perma block builds, they can adjust the value of sturdy to be slightly lower while making bracing reduce block costs by 15%.... Still better than taking it out completely.

SublimeSparo · May 2016

Yea that's the plan, basically keep warhorn up as much as possible.
Who knows what goes through the minds of ZoS, wrath seems pointless, bracing was useful.
Silly little needless trivial changes, when there are things fundamentally wrong with the game that need addressing instead.
Lets just hope this isn't all just fiddling while Rome burns

Mordakai · May 2016

I could stand my stam nb tank taking forever to kill one thing or being almost useless in aoe fights, why? It was because when I got a healer behind me I could be the guy that picks up all the hard hitting mobs giving dps a chance to go all out on what they do best. I empowered my team and my guild to do better at what they chose to do.

Unfortunately, I had to take a short break for school and have come back to several difficult changes. I don't feel empowered by these changes, at the moment the siphoning attacks change alone is going to severely hinder my build. I'm not going to say they made my build impossible until I see what is in store for DB but for right now they took my once proud nb tank and turned him into nothing more than a common thief. I really hope they do something to help bring tanks into the game or at least give heavy armor a purpose.

DDuke · May 2016

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

Vangy · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

@DDuke
............. Numbers dont lie. Show me how block cost is totally fine with numbers. Or at the very least refute my numbers please. I for one, would LOVE to be proven wrong cos then it just means its all in my head.

Its not that blocking is impossible. Its what you have to GIVE UP for it that makes it non-feasible. Sure if you want to make a troll block build with 5 impen 2 sturdy and triple block cost reduction in 7/7 heavy with 1.8 k weapon power... suree. Thats totally possible. But you are not going to be any legitimate threat in solo play. Sure, in group play a build like this running fasallas can be potent and its currently one of my set ups. Not going to be anywhere near viable in open world. There's a reason why 9/10 builds out there are running shuffle dodge roll monkey with stam.

With this patch, medium armour becomes EVEN better. Now you are not relegated to sitting there like a turd holding block in heavy only to inevitably die about 10 seconds later when your stam bar is 0. With medium armour passives and new block cost reduction, you are free to sprint, block when you need to with SnB + amazing new "block cost reductions" and doge roll due to reduced costs for medium armour... Basically heavy armour got the shaft when they took bracing from it. No one sits there and holds block 24/7 till they die dude. As long as you let your block go and use LOS, medium armour is faaar better due to loss of bracing in heavy armour. You have to make up for this LOSS of 20% block cost reduction with things like enchants etc. The new constitution gives NOWHERE near sustain that 20% flat out block cost reduction provided. And 2k stam regen in medium armour? HAHAHA. There are people out there running well past 3k regen...

Go look at the excel file I posted. Prove me wrong. I really want you to. I really do. Ive already tried to make a heavy armour 5 piece build work for me in solo play but so far ive just been hitting a wall.... =(..... I like the way it is on live much better than PTS....

Ishammael · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

Decimus is correct here.

The 20% bracing loss can readily be made up for. In fact, because blocking didn't receive a cost increase (and all other skills were increased by 10.8%) you'll be better off in a relative sense as well.

One block cost reduction jewelry is worth ~10% block cost redux.
Each sturdy is worth 4% -- they said they are fixing this to be additive. (x4 = 16%)
You gained 6% on the Sw/Sh line.

Constitution in current patch = 240/4s @ 5H
Constitution in next patch = 960/4s @ 5H

We know the blocking cooldown is 0.5s. Math is easy from here.

Vangy · May 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

Decimus is correct here.

The 20% bracing loss can readily be made up for. In fact, because blocking didn't receive a cost increase (and all other skills were increased by 10.8%) you'll be better off in a relative sense as well.

One block cost reduction jewelry is worth ~10% block cost redux.
Each sturdy is worth 4% -- they said they are fixing this to be additive. (x4 = 16%)
You gained 6% on the Sw/Sh line.

Constitution in current patch = 240/4s @ 5H
Constitution in next patch = 960/4s @ 5H

We know the blocking cooldown is 0.5s. Math is easy from here.

So clearly the math in my excel file is wrong yes? So far ive checked it and re-checked it and unless you give up impen pieces for sturdy, you lose out on block cost even with buffed constitution. So clearly since you guys are so forcefully adamant that block cost is going down, my math has to be flawed somewhere. Still waiting on someone to show me where im wrong...

From what I see blocking didnt get buffed or nerfed. They just took away bracing and gave it to us back via sturdy. Skill costs went up by 10.8% and they fked us up with the CP change of block cost from red to green so they gave us "buffed constitution" to make up for it. All in all, its about 12-16% nerf to block costs across the board by my math in terms of stamina costs. I havent yet seen how the added resistances and magicka return weighs up against the loss of reduced magicka costs from theif tree.

DDuke · May 2016

Vangy wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

@DDuke
............. Numbers dont lie. Show me how block cost is totally fine with numbers. Or at the very least refute my numbers please. I for one, would LOVE to be proven wrong cos then it just means its all in my head.

Its not that blocking is impossible. Its what you have to GIVE UP for it that makes it non-feasible. Sure if you want to make a troll block build with 5 impen 2 sturdy and triple block cost reduction in 7/7 heavy with 1.8 k weapon power... suree. Thats totally possible. But you are not going to be any legitimate threat in solo play. Sure, in group play a build like this running fasallas can be potent and its currently one of my set ups. Not going to be anywhere near viable in open world. There's a reason why 9/10 builds out there are running shuffle dodge roll monkey with stam.

With this patch, medium armour becomes EVEN better. Now you are not relegated to sitting there like a turd holding block in heavy only to inevitably die about 10 seconds later when your stam bar is 0. With medium armour passives and new block cost reduction, you are free to sprint, block when you need to with SnB + amazing new "block cost reductions" and doge roll due to reduced costs for medium armour... Basically heavy armour got the shaft when they took bracing from it. No one sits there and holds block 24/7 till they die dude. As long as you let your block go and use LOS, medium armour is faaar better due to loss of bracing in heavy armour. You have to make up for this LOSS of 25% block cost reduction with things like enchants etc. The new constitution gives NOWHERE near sustain that 25% flat out block cost reduction provided. And 2k stam regen in medium armour? HAHAHA. There are people out there running well past 3k regen...

Go look at the excel file I posted. Prove me wrong. I really want you to. I really do. Ive already tried to make a heavy armour 5 piece build work for me in solo play but so far ive just been hitting a wall.... =(..... I like the way it is on live much better than PTS....

First of all, according to your excel Constitution returns resources every 0,5 seconds. Not true - it has a 4 seconds cooldown meaning it returns "120 resources every 0,5 seconds" after patch, if that makes sense. On live, this is "43.25 stamina" every 0,5 seconds.

...why am I even going through this, it's all mentioned in the post I linked (here, again: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1)

Are the numbers lying now?

Also, the constitution change helps tanks whether they're blocking or not. If anything, combined with Wrath you'll be more capable of playing offensively in heavy armor than ever before (and it is pretty damn good on Live for magicka builds already).

And just to go over the "medium vs heavy" again...

Here's your regen while blocking in heavy: "652.5 stamina & magicka regen" (Consitution)
Here's your regen while blocking in medium: 0

Here's your regen in a usual high damage setup for heavy armor: 1k-1.2k + "652.5 stamina & magicka regen" (Consitution)=1.8k~
Here's your regen in a usual high damage setup for medium armor: 1.3-1.4k (passives included)

And if you think tanking is just about holding block... well, that's sad. The most important aspect of heavy armor is the mitigation you gain over other types of armor, and after the next patch you don't give up much damage/sustain either to get that mitigation.

I really don't see what you're complaining about.

Ishammael · May 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

Decimus is correct here.

The 20% bracing loss can readily be made up for. In fact, because blocking didn't receive a cost increase (and all other skills were increased by 10.8%) you'll be better off in a relative sense as well.

One block cost reduction jewelry is worth ~10% block cost redux.
Each sturdy is worth 4% -- they said they are fixing this to be additive. (x4 = 16%)
You gained 6% on the Sw/Sh line.

Constitution in current patch = 240/4s @ 5H
Constitution in next patch = 960/4s @ 5H

We know the blocking cooldown is 0.5s. Math is easy from here.

So clearly the math in my excel file is wrong yes? So far ive checked it and re-checked it and unless you give up impen pieces for sturdy, you lose out on block cost even with buffed constitution. So clearly since you guys are so forcefully adamant that block cost is going down, my math has to be flawed somewhere. Still waiting on someone to show me where im wrong...

From what I see blocking didnt get buffed or nerfed. They just took away bracing and gave it to us back via sturdy. Skill costs went up by 10.8% and they fked us up with the CP change of block cost from red to green so they gave us "buffed constitution" to make up for it. All in all, its about 12-16% nerf to block costs across the board by my math in terms of stamina costs. I havent yet seen how the added resistances and magicka return weighs up against the loss of reduced magicka costs from theif tree.

You have to view it as opportunity cost, at the system level.

Yes, ofc you have to give up Impen for sturdy -- but now you have the opportunity to utilize sturdy for block cost reduction. With 3x sturdy and the 6% in Sw/Sh line (18%), you are already better off considering the changes to constitution.

Stam recovery while blocking in light or medium = 0.

Regardless, Decimus makes the correct (overall) observation: the point of blocking is the damage reduction.

RE: 10% cost increases -- other players will be forced to give up some (lots) damage to achieve sustain parity.

hrothbern · May 2016

Vangy wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

@DDuke
............. Numbers dont lie. Show me how block cost is totally fine with numbers. Or at the very least refute my numbers please. I for one, would LOVE to be proven wrong cos then it just means its all in my head.

Its not that blocking is impossible. Its what you have to GIVE UP for it that makes it non-feasible. Sure if you want to make a troll block build with 5 impen 2 sturdy and triple block cost reduction in 7/7 heavy with 1.8 k weapon power... suree. Thats totally possible. But you are not going to be any legitimate threat in solo play. Sure, in group play a build like this running fasallas can be potent and its currently one of my set ups. Not going to be anywhere near viable in open world. There's a reason why 9/10 builds out there are running shuffle dodge roll monkey with stam.

With this patch, medium armour becomes EVEN better. Now you are not relegated to sitting there like a turd holding block in heavy only to inevitably die about 10 seconds later when your stam bar is 0. With medium armour passives and new block cost reduction, you are free to sprint, block when you need to with SnB + amazing new "block cost reductions" and doge roll due to reduced costs for medium armour... Basically heavy armour got the shaft when they took bracing from it. No one sits there and holds block 24/7 till they die dude. As long as you let your block go and use LOS, medium armour is faaar better due to loss of bracing in heavy armour. You have to make up for this LOSS of 25% block cost reduction with things like enchants etc. The new constitution gives NOWHERE near sustain that 25% flat out block cost reduction provided. And 2k stam regen in medium armour? HAHAHA. There are people out there running well past 3k regen...

Go look at the excel file I posted. Prove me wrong. I really want you to. I really do. Ive already tried to make a heavy armour 5 piece build work for me in solo play but so far ive just been hitting a wall.... =(..... I like the way it is on live much better than PTS....

@Vangy ,

The Block Cost spreadsheet you made is based on a hit every 0.5 seconds !

This is NOT what in reality happens
You do not always have many opponents firing at you.
Even with many opponents there are quite some hits that will come in the same 0.5 second window. And those multiple hits will count for 1 Block cost hit.

EDIT
and with less hits causing Block costs, the flat Constitution increase has a bigger value increase per hit than in your spreadsheet.

Vangy · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

@DDuke
............. Numbers dont lie. Show me how block cost is totally fine with numbers. Or at the very least refute my numbers please. I for one, would LOVE to be proven wrong cos then it just means its all in my head.

Its not that blocking is impossible. Its what you have to GIVE UP for it that makes it non-feasible. Sure if you want to make a troll block build with 5 impen 2 sturdy and triple block cost reduction in 7/7 heavy with 1.8 k weapon power... suree. Thats totally possible. But you are not going to be any legitimate threat in solo play. Sure, in group play a build like this running fasallas can be potent and its currently one of my set ups. Not going to be anywhere near viable in open world. There's a reason why 9/10 builds out there are running shuffle dodge roll monkey with stam.

With this patch, medium armour becomes EVEN better. Now you are not relegated to sitting there like a turd holding block in heavy only to inevitably die about 10 seconds later when your stam bar is 0. With medium armour passives and new block cost reduction, you are free to sprint, block when you need to with SnB + amazing new "block cost reductions" and doge roll due to reduced costs for medium armour... Basically heavy armour got the shaft when they took bracing from it. No one sits there and holds block 24/7 till they die dude. As long as you let your block go and use LOS, medium armour is faaar better due to loss of bracing in heavy armour. You have to make up for this LOSS of 25% block cost reduction with things like enchants etc. The new constitution gives NOWHERE near sustain that 25% flat out block cost reduction provided. And 2k stam regen in medium armour? HAHAHA. There are people out there running well past 3k regen...

Go look at the excel file I posted. Prove me wrong. I really want you to. I really do. Ive already tried to make a heavy armour 5 piece build work for me in solo play but so far ive just been hitting a wall.... =(..... I like the way it is on live much better than PTS....

First of all, according to your excel Constitution returns resources every 0,5 seconds. Not true - it has a 4 seconds cooldown meaning it returns "120 resources every 0,5 seconds" after patch, if that makes sense. On live, this is "43.25 stamina" every 0,5 seconds.

...why am I even going through this, it's all mentioned in the post I linked (here, again: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1)

Are the numbers lying now?

Also, the constitution change helps tanks whether they're blocking or not. If anything, combined with Wrath you'll be more capable of playing offensively in heavy armor than ever before (and it is pretty damn good on Live for magicka builds already).

And just to go over the "medium vs heavy" again...

Here's your regen while blocking in heavy: "652.5 stamina & magicka regen" (Consitution)
Here's your regen while blocking in medium: 0

Here's your regen in a usual high damage setup for heavy armor: 1k-1.2k + "652.5 stamina & magicka regen" (Consitution)=1.8k~
Here's your regen in a usual high damage setup for medium armor: 1.3-1.4k (passives included)

And if you think tanking is just about holding block... well, that's sad. The most important aspect of heavy armor is the mitigation you gain over other types of armor, and after the next patch you don't give up much damage/sustain either to get that mitigation.

I really don't see what you're complaining about.

? constitution returns 1305 resources every 4 seconds. Block cost is charged every 0.5 seconds. So i took constitution and calculated it based on how much it returns every 0.5 seconds. That would be 1305/8 = 163.125 per 0.5 seconds for full 7 pieces heavy. Im calculating based on 5 pieces heavy so we need to multiply that by 5/7. So on average if we take calculations by a per second basis, constitution would provide about 320+ resource every second for full 7 pieces heavy.

Also a high damage set up would have a LOT more than 2k regen unless you talking about a glass cannon gank build. Good luck trying to out sustain someone in a medium armour stamina toon with 1.3k regen..... Personally my stam nb runs around 4.5k- weapon power with around 3.5k stam regen + a stam pool of about 30k.. Where are you getting your numbers from?? Have u even seen top tier stamina builds in PvP? My stam Nb stats is nothing compared to certain medium armour set ups people are running. They are pushing 5k weapon damage with well over 2k stam regen....

You dont get it... You keep linking me to wrobels fariy tale world where I get to run x3 block cost enchants, full 7 pieces of heavy...... in PvP that would mean your weapon damage is going to be most likely about ~2k..... People can just sit there and out heal your damage with just a single vigor + shuffle....... Ugh... Never mind.

DDuke · May 2016

Vangy wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

@DDuke
............. Numbers dont lie. Show me how block cost is totally fine with numbers. Or at the very least refute my numbers please. I for one, would LOVE to be proven wrong cos then it just means its all in my head.

Its not that blocking is impossible. Its what you have to GIVE UP for it that makes it non-feasible. Sure if you want to make a troll block build with 5 impen 2 sturdy and triple block cost reduction in 7/7 heavy with 1.8 k weapon power... suree. Thats totally possible. But you are not going to be any legitimate threat in solo play. Sure, in group play a build like this running fasallas can be potent and its currently one of my set ups. Not going to be anywhere near viable in open world. There's a reason why 9/10 builds out there are running shuffle dodge roll monkey with stam.

With this patch, medium armour becomes EVEN better. Now you are not relegated to sitting there like a turd holding block in heavy only to inevitably die about 10 seconds later when your stam bar is 0. With medium armour passives and new block cost reduction, you are free to sprint, block when you need to with SnB + amazing new "block cost reductions" and doge roll due to reduced costs for medium armour... Basically heavy armour got the shaft when they took bracing from it. No one sits there and holds block 24/7 till they die dude. As long as you let your block go and use LOS, medium armour is faaar better due to loss of bracing in heavy armour. You have to make up for this LOSS of 25% block cost reduction with things like enchants etc. The new constitution gives NOWHERE near sustain that 25% flat out block cost reduction provided. And 2k stam regen in medium armour? HAHAHA. There are people out there running well past 3k regen...

Go look at the excel file I posted. Prove me wrong. I really want you to. I really do. Ive already tried to make a heavy armour 5 piece build work for me in solo play but so far ive just been hitting a wall.... =(..... I like the way it is on live much better than PTS....

First of all, according to your excel Constitution returns resources every 0,5 seconds. Not true - it has a 4 seconds cooldown meaning it returns "120 resources every 0,5 seconds" after patch, if that makes sense. On live, this is "43.25 stamina" every 0,5 seconds.

...why am I even going through this, it's all mentioned in the post I linked (here, again: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1)

Are the numbers lying now?

Also, the constitution change helps tanks whether they're blocking or not. If anything, combined with Wrath you'll be more capable of playing offensively in heavy armor than ever before (and it is pretty damn good on Live for magicka builds already).

And just to go over the "medium vs heavy" again...

Here's your regen while blocking in heavy: "652.5 stamina & magicka regen" (Consitution)
Here's your regen while blocking in medium: 0

Here's your regen in a usual high damage setup for heavy armor: 1k-1.2k + "652.5 stamina & magicka regen" (Consitution)=1.8k~
Here's your regen in a usual high damage setup for medium armor: 1.3-1.4k (passives included)

And if you think tanking is just about holding block... well, that's sad. The most important aspect of heavy armor is the mitigation you gain over other types of armor, and after the next patch you don't give up much damage/sustain either to get that mitigation.

I really don't see what you're complaining about.

? constitution returns 1305 resources every 4 seconds. Block cost is charged every 0.5 seconds. So i took constitution and calculated it based on how much it returns every 0.5 seconds. That would be 1305/8 = 163.125 per 0.5 seconds for full 7 pieces heavy. Im calculating based on 5 pieces heavy so we need to multiply that by 5/7. So on average if we take calculations by a per second basis, constitution would provide about 320+ resource every second.

Also a high damage set up would have a LOT more than 2k regen unless you talking about a glass cannon gank build. Good luck trying to out sustain someone in a medium armour stamina toon with 1.3k regen.....

Why didn't you just say you have no idea about PvP?

My magicka heavy armor templar has 1360 magicka regen on Live, you are welcome to check how glass cannon gank build that is: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk

My medium armor stamina NB has never had above 1,5k regen, because regen is irrelevant when you do heavy attacks to get extra burst.

Weapon/Spell Damage = tankiness & sustain - because your heals become stronger as well.

Someone with 2-3k regen has to roll dodge or block much more often and thus waste more resources, because you take much more pressure (not being able to outheal the incoming damage).

Vangy · May 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

@DDuke
............. Numbers dont lie. Show me how block cost is totally fine with numbers. Or at the very least refute my numbers please. I for one, would LOVE to be proven wrong cos then it just means its all in my head.

Its not that blocking is impossible. Its what you have to GIVE UP for it that makes it non-feasible. Sure if you want to make a troll block build with 5 impen 2 sturdy and triple block cost reduction in 7/7 heavy with 1.8 k weapon power... suree. Thats totally possible. But you are not going to be any legitimate threat in solo play. Sure, in group play a build like this running fasallas can be potent and its currently one of my set ups. Not going to be anywhere near viable in open world. There's a reason why 9/10 builds out there are running shuffle dodge roll monkey with stam.

With this patch, medium armour becomes EVEN better. Now you are not relegated to sitting there like a turd holding block in heavy only to inevitably die about 10 seconds later when your stam bar is 0. With medium armour passives and new block cost reduction, you are free to sprint, block when you need to with SnB + amazing new "block cost reductions" and doge roll due to reduced costs for medium armour... Basically heavy armour got the shaft when they took bracing from it. No one sits there and holds block 24/7 till they die dude. As long as you let your block go and use LOS, medium armour is faaar better due to loss of bracing in heavy armour. You have to make up for this LOSS of 25% block cost reduction with things like enchants etc. The new constitution gives NOWHERE near sustain that 25% flat out block cost reduction provided. And 2k stam regen in medium armour? HAHAHA. There are people out there running well past 3k regen...

Go look at the excel file I posted. Prove me wrong. I really want you to. I really do. Ive already tried to make a heavy armour 5 piece build work for me in solo play but so far ive just been hitting a wall.... =(..... I like the way it is on live much better than PTS....

@Vangy ,

The Block Cost spreadsheet you made is based on a hit every 0.5 seconds !

This is NOT what in reality happens
You do not always have many opponents firing at you.
Even with many opponents there are quite some hits that will come in the same 0.5 second window. And those multiple hits will count for 1 Block cost hit.

EDIT
and with less hits causing Block costs, the flat Constitution increase has a bigger value increase per hit than in your spreadsheet.

Yeah I was assuming worst case scenario in my example. Im not too sure about what you mean by "and with less hits causing Block costs, the flat Constitution increase has a bigger value increase per hit than in your spreadsheet."? If you are trying to put across that the changes to constitution is worth a lot more if we dont get hit every 0,5 seconds, then yes, I do get that. But im looking at a worst case scenario basis.. My role in group play is to kinda run out and bait a bunch of zergers to hit me while my friends blow em up. And I assure you I take enough hits in this timespan to make my assumption of getting hit every 0.5 seconds reasonable. but yes, I do understand that getting hit less than every 0.5s = constitution better.

Vangy · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Why are threads like this still a thing?

It was explained how blocking in this patch is easier than it has ever been, and I've personally tested this on PTS just to confirm.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1

If you think there's no reason to run heavy armor... well, good luck trying to keep your stamina pool up without the Constitution passive, medium armor is going to do you little good while blocking (no stam regen, remember?).
Then there's the whole mitigation aspect of heavy armour...

Besides, you would need well over 2k stam regen for your "regen" to be better than heavy even if you weren't blocking.

Constitution (without Black Rose)=480 stamina/magicka every 2 seconds
20% stam regen (5p medium armour)=400 stamina/magicka at 2k regen

@DDuke
............. Numbers dont lie. Show me how block cost is totally fine with numbers. Or at the very least refute my numbers please. I for one, would LOVE to be proven wrong cos then it just means its all in my head.

Its not that blocking is impossible. Its what you have to GIVE UP for it that makes it non-feasible. Sure if you want to make a troll block build with 5 impen 2 sturdy and triple block cost reduction in 7/7 heavy with 1.8 k weapon power... suree. Thats totally possible. But you are not going to be any legitimate threat in solo play. Sure, in group play a build like this running fasallas can be potent and its currently one of my set ups. Not going to be anywhere near viable in open world. There's a reason why 9/10 builds out there are running shuffle dodge roll monkey with stam.

With this patch, medium armour becomes EVEN better. Now you are not relegated to sitting there like a turd holding block in heavy only to inevitably die about 10 seconds later when your stam bar is 0. With medium armour passives and new block cost reduction, you are free to sprint, block when you need to with SnB + amazing new "block cost reductions" and doge roll due to reduced costs for medium armour... Basically heavy armour got the shaft when they took bracing from it. No one sits there and holds block 24/7 till they die dude. As long as you let your block go and use LOS, medium armour is faaar better due to loss of bracing in heavy armour. You have to make up for this LOSS of 25% block cost reduction with things like enchants etc. The new constitution gives NOWHERE near sustain that 25% flat out block cost reduction provided. And 2k stam regen in medium armour? HAHAHA. There are people out there running well past 3k regen...

Go look at the excel file I posted. Prove me wrong. I really want you to. I really do. Ive already tried to make a heavy armour 5 piece build work for me in solo play but so far ive just been hitting a wall.... =(..... I like the way it is on live much better than PTS....

First of all, according to your excel Constitution returns resources every 0,5 seconds. Not true - it has a 4 seconds cooldown meaning it returns "120 resources every 0,5 seconds" after patch, if that makes sense. On live, this is "43.25 stamina" every 0,5 seconds.

...why am I even going through this, it's all mentioned in the post I linked (here, again: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265399/detailed-explanation-of-block-cost-changes/p1)

Are the numbers lying now?

Also, the constitution change helps tanks whether they're blocking or not. If anything, combined with Wrath you'll be more capable of playing offensively in heavy armor than ever before (and it is pretty damn good on Live for magicka builds already).

And just to go over the "medium vs heavy" again...

Here's your regen while blocking in heavy: "652.5 stamina & magicka regen" (Consitution)
Here's your regen while blocking in medium: 0

Here's your regen in a usual high damage setup for heavy armor: 1k-1.2k + "652.5 stamina & magicka regen" (Consitution)=1.8k~
Here's your regen in a usual high damage setup for medium armor: 1.3-1.4k (passives included)

And if you think tanking is just about holding block... well, that's sad. The most important aspect of heavy armor is the mitigation you gain over other types of armor, and after the next patch you don't give up much damage/sustain either to get that mitigation.

I really don't see what you're complaining about.

? constitution returns 1305 resources every 4 seconds. Block cost is charged every 0.5 seconds. So i took constitution and calculated it based on how much it returns every 0.5 seconds. That would be 1305/8 = 163.125 per 0.5 seconds for full 7 pieces heavy. Im calculating based on 5 pieces heavy so we need to multiply that by 5/7. So on average if we take calculations by a per second basis, constitution would provide about 320+ resource every second.

Also a high damage set up would have a LOT more than 2k regen unless you talking about a glass cannon gank build. Good luck trying to out sustain someone in a medium armour stamina toon with 1.3k regen.....

Why didn't you just say you have no idea about PvP?

My magicka heavy armor templar has 1360 magicka regen on Live, you are welcome to check how glass cannon gank build that is: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk

My medium armor stamina NB has never had above 1,5k regen, because regen is irrelevant when you do heavy attacks to get extra burst.

Weapon/Spell Damage = tankiness & sustain - because your heals become stronger as well.

Someone with 2-3k regen has to roll dodge or block much more often and thus waste more resources, because you take much more pressure (not being able to outheal the incoming damage).

Wow... This is where I stop debating you.. A stam nb with 1.5k stam regen. Never mind. You win.