Regarding Dw/Bow builds

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TL;DR : bow will continue to be overshadowed by other stamina weapon while the recent changes greatly helped they made bow become less of a main hand and more of a back bar utility since it lacks a spammble dps skill.

Since DBs Stam buffs Dw/Bow builds are going to be more popular which is nice since its my favorite set up

but with minimal bow buffs and a massive DW buffs bow will once again continue to be overshadowed by all other stam weapons and be a "back bar weapon" for just dots

What can be done to help bow be a good competitive dps weapon in PVP and PVE?

Volley,Arrow spray, and poison arrow are fine and with the champion changes and the hawk eye changes bow is and significantly better state than before but there is still two skills that are lack luster which holds it back from being a main hand weapon:

Snipe and scatter shot, Snipe is just too slow of a dps skill hence why people use bow as a utility weapon it has a 1.1 sec cast time and a 3 sec travel time (max range) for a combined total of 4secs to deal dps if you add to the fact that you move slowly during the animation you get yourself killed in most situations repositioning yourself and avoiding red aoe circles.

Scatter shot is just counter intuitive was this skill meant to be for melee users? Because I will never under stand why it has a 10m range and a disorient when gap closers can be spamed for double the range plus its a disorient so any dot on the target will automatically break the stun.

70% of bow dps comes from Poison Injection and Volley these dots can easily be replaced with caltrops and rending slashes and if you're a DKs you have the best Dot in the game (obviously if you have the Maelstrom bow you will use Volley)

Volley can only be used in a group play on your own it sucks you can't kite all mobs in the AoE and in PVP nobody is going to stand in it long enough to deal decent dps plus caltrops is better because it covers a larger area ,snares and doesn't require you to wield a bow.

Now I know I'm going to see people talk about Bombard spammers and I know that it a problem but that's the best an archer can do to support the group they can kill anybody with snipe since it has a cast time+travel time+audio cue and and be LOSed and it's expensive to spam.

Edit: If any of you play on the pts can you tell me how viable is dawn guard cross bolt from FG and how much the cost is reduced by with evil hunter plus intimidating presence passive.

idk

Got tired of reading about 1/2 through when the post seemed to be repeating itself.

DW and 2H should perform better than how. Mele should outperform ranged.

zerosingularity

Considering I kill people with snipe easy, it is a great skill. The travel time in PvE doesn't matter, because you will still hit every 1.whatever secs the cast time is. And Rending Slashes is NOT a replacement for Poison Injection. Scattershot is awesome for bow builds in PvP, lets you break away easier. And Caltrops does good damage, but you want Volley AND Caltrops in PvE, or just Volley.

Basically I dunno if Bow builds will be lackluster or not, but your reasoning is very flawed.

Also Volley is awesome in Solo PvE play, just gotta know what you are doing.

Zoltan_117

You make a good point, bow doesn't have a spammable ability for one and that really let's it down.

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How did I repeat myself? Is was stating the problems with bow when combined with DW.

Just because 2H and DW have higher WD doesn't mean it should be better. Bow is a weapon Skill line not just a utility weapon. This isn't a thread talking about making bow better or equal to DW its about making bow not just be a utility weapon.

Also the arguement that melee should out preform ranged is flawed melee builds have no risk you have gap closers which can be spammed indefinitely and archers aren't even a threat to most people. In other MMOs this would make sense becaue gap closers have cool downs and you need to stragicly get close to ranges builds

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zerosingularity wrote: »

Considering I kill people with snipe easy, it is a great skill. The travel time in PvE doesn't matter, because you will still hit every 1.whatever secs the cast time is. And Rending Slashes is NOT a replacement for Poison Injection. Scattershot is awesome for bow builds in PvP, lets you break away easier. And Caltrops does good damage, but you want Volley AND Caltrops in PvE, or just Volley.

Basically I dunno if Bow builds will be lackluster or not, but your reasoning is very flawed.

Also Volley is awesome in Solo PvE play, just gotta know what you are doing.

1.) Snipe will hit PVE mobs but not for much against melee mobs that rush you and since you can't AC snipe you have to complete the entire animation to land the hit and at that time snipe would hit for less.

2.) PI only becomes lethal once you reach the 50% threshold on the targets HP other wise its dmg is just like rending slashes(some times lower because bow has lower WD) dks vemous claw increases in dmg as long as its ticking on a target and correct me if I'm wrong but the dmg scaling doesn't have a cap.

3.) Scatter shot just gives free CC immunity and it has a 10m you cannot escape from that range because people with spam ambush/crit and eventually kill you.

4.) Volley does good dmg as I stated but only on stationary targets no one will stand on Volley or Caltrops . The difference is caltrops snares making it harder to eacape and last for 30 secs compared to 8-10 volley duration.

khele23eb17_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Got tired of reading about 1/2 through when the post seemed to be repeating itself.

DW and 2H should perform better than how. Mele should outperform ranged.

But magicka ranged builds can outperform them, so...?

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khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Got tired of reading about 1/2 through when the post seemed to be repeating itself.

DW and 2H should perform better than how. Mele should outperform ranged.

But magicka ranged builds can outperform them, so...?

This, ppl ignore the fact that magic builds ingore range penalty by equipping 2 swords

cyclonus11

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

DW and 2H should perform better than how. Mele should outperform ranged.

Why?

mistermutiny89

Only problem for me is self healing. Vigor doesn't heal enough in vet dungeons but hopefully the rapid strikes healing morph solves that.

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cyclonus11 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

DW and 2H should perform better than how. Mele should outperform ranged.

Why?

Because he is a meta( Fotm) player with a closed mind

idk

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

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mistermutiny89 wrote: »

Only problem for me is self healing. Vigor doesn't heal enough in vet dungeons but hopefully the rapid strikes healing morph solves that.

You mean blood thirst? It will be excellent for decent healing since it double dips in the champ tree.

Also vigor could be good if you have enough CP points in blessed and quick recovery.

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Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

idk

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

Bos, as a ranged weapon, does just fine. Especially weaving basic attacks in to build up the new passive. It should not do as well as DW or 2H as a ranged build has the luxury of being able to stand in safer locations.

The real problem is to many ranged builds (magika) do to well. There should be an increased damage for having limited range. Problem is, how can ESO define mele vs ranged since the weapon doesn't define it. I have mele magika builds with staffs that have a 7 M range.

Regardless, bow does ok and should not be on par with its stam brethren.

khele23eb17_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

Bos, as a ranged weapon, does just fine. Especially weaving basic attacks in to build up the new passive. It should not do as well as DW or 2H as a ranged build has the luxury of being able to stand in safer locations.

The real problem is to many ranged builds (magika) do to well. There should be an increased damage for having limited range. Problem is, how can ESO define mele vs ranged since the weapon doesn't define it. I have mele magika builds with staffs that have a 7 M range.

Regardless, bow does ok and should not be on par with its stam brethren.

It should be. Obviously if you put a melee and a ranged character in front of a dps test dummy (can we finally have those ZOS?) melee should get a higher result. Not by much, maybe 10-15%. This then would be negated by lower risk and higher uptime from the bow in actual combat. So in practice they would be equally effective.

CP5

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

Bos, as a ranged weapon, does just fine. Especially weaving basic attacks in to build up the new passive. It should not do as well as DW or 2H as a ranged build has the luxury of being able to stand in safer locations.

The real problem is to many ranged builds (magika) do to well. There should be an increased damage for having limited range. Problem is, how can ESO define mele vs ranged since the weapon doesn't define it. I have mele magika builds with staffs that have a 7 M range.

Regardless, bow does ok and should not be on par with its stam brethren.

Uh, 'being able to stand in safer locations' is not anywhere near as applicable in this game. Any mob that is a threat in pve is either ranged, thus negating your distance 'advantage' or melee and ignores any form of cc. And in pvp if you aren't sitting on a keep wall people will just use and reuse gap closers. Range is hardly an advantage there. OP has a good point that bow is just something you switch to for placing a volley then hitting a poison injection then switching to a 'real' weapon to do primary dps. Bow needs a reliable damage skill in its skill tree so you stay with the bow to deal your damage, not just drop the bow the first chance you get. Sorry if you feel that ranged stamina dps shouldn't be a thing.

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Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

Bos, as a ranged weapon, does just fine. Especially weaving basic attacks in to build up the new passive. It should not do as well as DW or 2H as a ranged build has the luxury of being able to stand in safer locations.

The real problem is to many ranged builds (magika) do to well. There should be an increased damage for having limited range. Problem is, how can ESO define mele vs ranged since the weapon doesn't define it. I have mele magika builds with staffs that have a 7 M range.

Regardless, bow does ok and should not be on par with its stam brethren.

Agreed, but snipe is the main problem its a slow dps skill, but for the most part bow is ok, but still needs some tweaking same could be said with the sorc class ranged dps kit.

waterfairy

Melee is more risky then ranged so it should be stronger.

idk

CP5 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

Bos, as a ranged weapon, does just fine. Especially weaving basic attacks in to build up the new passive. It should not do as well as DW or 2H as a ranged build has the luxury of being able to stand in safer locations.

The real problem is to many ranged builds (magika) do to well. There should be an increased damage for having limited range. Problem is, how can ESO define mele vs ranged since the weapon doesn't define it. I have mele magika builds with staffs that have a 7 M range.

Regardless, bow does ok and should not be on par with its stam brethren.

Uh, 'being able to stand in safer locations' is not anywhere near as applicable in this game. Any mob that is a threat in pve is either ranged, thus negating your distance 'advantage' or melee and ignores any form of cc. And in pvp if you aren't sitting on a keep wall people will just use and reuse gap closers. Range is hardly an advantage there. OP has a good point that bow is just something you switch to for placing a volley then hitting a poison injection then switching to a 'real' weapon to do primary dps. Bow needs a reliable damage skill in its skill tree so you stay with the bow to deal your damage, not just drop the bow the first chance you get. Sorry if you feel that ranged stamina dps shouldn't be a thing.

Um, yea, a little overly simplistic of an example being used there. There are clear advantages to being ranged yet no advantages to being mele. Maybe my experience is a little broader.

Delegator

I have run Bow/DW on my main for a long time, and I have difficulty identifying with the complaints.

Snipe: a fantastic opener, not meant to be serially used in a 1v1 situation. It does excellent damage + healing debuff, and because of the travel time you can get a second snipe off before the first even hits. It's a perfect ganking tool, great for keep battles as well.

Scatter Shot: I have just recently started using this more than poison spray in PvP, because it has a host of uses. Defensively it gets melee off your back. Yes, there are gap closers...but a critical charge is nowhere near as damaging as Wrecking Blow, and also I can get off at least a light attack and poison injection by the time that opponent reaches me.

Lack of spammable attack: light/heavy weave with poison injection. If you aren't doing things like animation canceling heavy attacks with poison injection, then you just aren't playing well. Animation canceling allows at least one tick of poison injection to take place while you build your heavy attack damage and stamina return.

Dual Swords for magicka ranged DPS: yeah, I do that on my magicka templar. The big issue with this is that in exchange for the damage boost from Twin Blade & Blunt, you lose any ability to recover magicka via heavy attacks as you would from a resto or destro staff. There are always tradeoffs, even for FOTM builds. Think of all the things you want from your attacks, and NONE of the trees have it all:

• Ranged damage
• Ranged AE
• Point blank AE
• Execute
• Spammable high damage
• Crowd Control
• High damage opener
• Self-heal
• Probably more that I haven't listed

To me, the biggest issues for Bow are:

1. Lack of a self heal (shares this issue with Destro and 1h/Shield)
2. Lack of an execute (the higher ticks on poison injection don't truly compensate for this) (also shared with Destro Staff)

kojou

Scatter Shot and its morphs need a buff. Maybe have it grant Major Brutality for 10 seconds and increase the damage to a similar amount to Flying Dagger level?

I tried really hard to make bow a primary DPS weapon and gave up a long time ago. I have a stam DK that I will use it on, but only as mentioned with Volley and Poison Injection for DoT.

KingYogi415

Do you PVP a lot?
Running in with a steel tornado will get you killed immediately.

CP5

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

Bos, as a ranged weapon, does just fine. Especially weaving basic attacks in to build up the new passive. It should not do as well as DW or 2H as a ranged build has the luxury of being able to stand in safer locations.

The real problem is to many ranged builds (magika) do to well. There should be an increased damage for having limited range. Problem is, how can ESO define mele vs ranged since the weapon doesn't define it. I have mele magika builds with staffs that have a 7 M range.

Regardless, bow does ok and should not be on par with its stam brethren.

Uh, 'being able to stand in safer locations' is not anywhere near as applicable in this game. Any mob that is a threat in pve is either ranged, thus negating your distance 'advantage' or melee and ignores any form of cc. And in pvp if you aren't sitting on a keep wall people will just use and reuse gap closers. Range is hardly an advantage there. OP has a good point that bow is just something you switch to for placing a volley then hitting a poison injection then switching to a 'real' weapon to do primary dps. Bow needs a reliable damage skill in its skill tree so you stay with the bow to deal your damage, not just drop the bow the first chance you get. Sorry if you feel that ranged stamina dps shouldn't be a thing.

Um, yea, a little overly simplistic of an example being used there. There are clear advantages to being ranged yet no advantages to being mele. Maybe my experience is a little broader.

Probably, but in general melee, with its higher weapon damage, provides stronger heals and ends fights sooner. If you are using a bow and really want to be at a range a good amount of your time in a fight can easily be spent kiting and re-positioning, where as with a melee weapon you do need to position yourself, but you can generally focus more on the damage dealing, taking into account the times where you need to stop all damage to disengage. It is just right now the primary dps skills on bow are fire and forget, and make the weapon a supplementary source of dps, and even if it were to get changes to provide better sustain melee builds can still use volley and poison injection, thus taking a decent amount of the bows sustain anyway.

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CP5 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

Bos, as a ranged weapon, does just fine. Especially weaving basic attacks in to build up the new passive. It should not do as well as DW or 2H as a ranged build has the luxury of being able to stand in safer locations.

The real problem is to many ranged builds (magika) do to well. There should be an increased damage for having limited range. Problem is, how can ESO define mele vs ranged since the weapon doesn't define it. I have mele magika builds with staffs that have a 7 M range.

Regardless, bow does ok and should not be on par with its stam brethren.

Uh, 'being able to stand in safer locations' is not anywhere near as applicable in this game. Any mob that is a threat in pve is either ranged, thus negating your distance 'advantage' or melee and ignores any form of cc. And in pvp if you aren't sitting on a keep wall people will just use and reuse gap closers. Range is hardly an advantage there. OP has a good point that bow is just something you switch to for placing a volley then hitting a poison injection then switching to a 'real' weapon to do primary dps. Bow needs a reliable damage skill in its skill tree so you stay with the bow to deal your damage, not just drop the bow the first chance you get. Sorry if you feel that ranged stamina dps shouldn't be a thing.

This. Sadly ranged builds in general are lacking due to spammable gap closers

khele23eb17_ESO

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

Bos, as a ranged weapon, does just fine. Especially weaving basic attacks in to build up the new passive. It should not do as well as DW or 2H as a ranged build has the luxury of being able to stand in safer locations.

The real problem is to many ranged builds (magika) do to well. There should be an increased damage for having limited range. Problem is, how can ESO define mele vs ranged since the weapon doesn't define it. I have mele magika builds with staffs that have a 7 M range.

Regardless, bow does ok and should not be on par with its stam brethren.

Uh, 'being able to stand in safer locations' is not anywhere near as applicable in this game. Any mob that is a threat in pve is either ranged, thus negating your distance 'advantage' or melee and ignores any form of cc. And in pvp if you aren't sitting on a keep wall people will just use and reuse gap closers. Range is hardly an advantage there. OP has a good point that bow is just something you switch to for placing a volley then hitting a poison injection then switching to a 'real' weapon to do primary dps. Bow needs a reliable damage skill in its skill tree so you stay with the bow to deal your damage, not just drop the bow the first chance you get. Sorry if you feel that ranged stamina dps shouldn't be a thing.

This. Sadly ranged builds in general are lacking due to spammable gap closers

In pvp there should be a balance between kiting tools and gap closers. Without cooldowns however that is hard to achieve.

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Delegator wrote: »

I have run Bow/DW on my main for a long time, and I have difficulty identifying with the complaints.

Snipe: a fantastic opener, not meant to be serially used in a 1v1 situation. It does excellent damage + healing debuff, and because of the travel time you can get a second snipe off before the first even hits. It's a perfect ganking tool, great for keep battles as well.

Scatter Shot: I have just recently started using this more than poison spray in PvP, because it has a host of uses. Defensively it gets melee off your back. Yes, there are gap closers...but a critical charge is nowhere near as damaging as Wrecking Blow, and also I can get off at least a light attack and poison injection by the time that opponent reaches me.

Lack of spammable attack: light/heavy weave with poison injection. If you aren't doing things like animation canceling heavy attacks with poison injection, then you just aren't playing well. Animation canceling allows at least one tick of poison injection to take place while you build your heavy attack damage and stamina return.

Dual Swords for magicka ranged DPS: yeah, I do that on my magicka templar. The big issue with this is that in exchange for the damage boost from Twin Blade & Blunt, you lose any ability to recover magicka via heavy attacks as you would from a resto or destro staff. There are always tradeoffs, even for FOTM builds. Think of all the things you want from your attacks, and NONE of the trees have it all:

• Ranged damage
• Ranged AE
• Point blank AE
• Execute
• Spammable high damage
• Crowd Control
• High damage opener
• Self-heal
• Probably more that I haven't listed

To me, the biggest issues for Bow are:

1. Lack of a self heal (shares this issue with Destro and 1h/Shield)
2. Lack of an execute (the higher ticks on poison injection don't truly compensate for this) (also shared with Destro Staff)

1.) Why can't snipe be used in a 1v1 senario? So you're telling me I have To gank to use a bow? Plus "snipe stacking" is useless because one dodge roll can evase all three in the air since it takes a milliom years to hit (exaggeration).

Its not good in keep battles at all do you pvp often? Because my experience is this: snipe someone bring them to low hp, the second one is in the air

They rolldodge, my snipe misses and the templar spams breath of life to heal them to full while I keep missing my snipes.

2.) I think you missed my point as a bow man you are suppose to be at range the dmg of gap closers has nothing to with scatter shots short commings. It the fact that it has a 10M RANGE for reference WB has a 7m range

How am I suppose to funtion as a bowman when If I want to CC I have to get in 10m(Melee range) then move 25m away (gap closer range) and start my slow cast time slow travel time dps skill. Think about that does it make any sense?

3.) You aren't supposed to spam poison injection it a DOT man. Spamming it just resets the dot tick LA/HA weaving doesn't provide sufficient enough dps so that's out the picture.

4.) A magic build that uses DW is committed to high burst dmg and at the end of the day thats all PVP is about these days no need to gimp your self "sustaing resources" when you can burst people down quickly and have high healing since

High dmg= High healing.

CP points also alleviate the need for sustain since you get it all from CP.

Bow doesnt need all the skills in the game. It just needs a reliable spam dps skill and a decent CC skill not a half a**ed one.

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khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bow when combined with DW is great. Keep poison inject on target and the circle aoe, click any buffs whole ok now bar and chsnge to DW for the meat of ones rotation. Makes for a great build, especially for NBs that would also have their class execute on their DW bar.

However, bow in the build is merely for a couple dots and any buffs needed to augment damage and such like rearming bear trap.

That's what the thread is about, bow being paired with DW makes bow a utility weapon.

So tweaks for some of the bow skills wouls help it not be just a utility weapon.

Bos, as a ranged weapon, does just fine. Especially weaving basic attacks in to build up the new passive. It should not do as well as DW or 2H as a ranged build has the luxury of being able to stand in safer locations.

The real problem is to many ranged builds (magika) do to well. There should be an increased damage for having limited range. Problem is, how can ESO define mele vs ranged since the weapon doesn't define it. I have mele magika builds with staffs that have a 7 M range.

Regardless, bow does ok and should not be on par with its stam brethren.

Uh, 'being able to stand in safer locations' is not anywhere near as applicable in this game. Any mob that is a threat in pve is either ranged, thus negating your distance 'advantage' or melee and ignores any form of cc. And in pvp if you aren't sitting on a keep wall people will just use and reuse gap closers. Range is hardly an advantage there. OP has a good point that bow is just something you switch to for placing a volley then hitting a poison injection then switching to a 'real' weapon to do primary dps. Bow needs a reliable damage skill in its skill tree so you stay with the bow to deal your damage, not just drop the bow the first chance you get. Sorry if you feel that ranged stamina dps shouldn't be a thing.

This. Sadly ranged builds in general are lacking due to spammable gap closers

In pvp there should be a balance between kiting tools and gap closers. Without cooldowns however that is hard to achieve.

I would suggest a cost increase (50%) for each subsequent use within a 4 sec time frame. Similarly to how bolt escape and dodge roll works. This would make it have artificial cooldowns if used multiple times in that time fram your resources would be low.

Before people get pitch forks and torches I think this is a fair deal gap closers go above and beyond their basic funtion

-they deal good dmg(crit rush)
-they snare you passively
-now they can go across ledges(DB change)
-they get you from point A to Point B
- they stun (shield charge)

With the aforementioned suggestions above this would make gap closers more valuable and strategic thus making the "melee should deal more dmg" arguement valid. If you spam gap closers you run out of resources but if you use them strategicly you should be fine ranged builds don't deal a lot of dmg anyways so walking to engage in melee range periodically shouldn't be a problem.

khele23eb17_ESO

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Delegator wrote: »

I have run Bow/DW on my main for a long time, and I have difficulty identifying with the complaints.

Snipe: a fantastic opener, not meant to be serially used in a 1v1 situation. It does excellent damage + healing debuff, and because of the travel time you can get a second snipe off before the first even hits. It's a perfect ganking tool, great for keep battles as well.

Scatter Shot: I have just recently started using this more than poison spray in PvP, because it has a host of uses. Defensively it gets melee off your back. Yes, there are gap closers...but a critical charge is nowhere near as damaging as Wrecking Blow, and also I can get off at least a light attack and poison injection by the time that opponent reaches me.

Lack of spammable attack: light/heavy weave with poison injection. If you aren't doing things like animation canceling heavy attacks with poison injection, then you just aren't playing well. Animation canceling allows at least one tick of poison injection to take place while you build your heavy attack damage and stamina return.

Dual Swords for magicka ranged DPS: yeah, I do that on my magicka templar. The big issue with this is that in exchange for the damage boost from Twin Blade & Blunt, you lose any ability to recover magicka via heavy attacks as you would from a resto or destro staff. There are always tradeoffs, even for FOTM builds. Think of all the things you want from your attacks, and NONE of the trees have it all:

• Ranged damage
• Ranged AE
• Point blank AE
• Execute
• Spammable high damage
• Crowd Control
• High damage opener
• Self-heal
• Probably more that I haven't listed

To me, the biggest issues for Bow are:

1. Lack of a self heal (shares this issue with Destro and 1h/Shield)
2. Lack of an execute (the higher ticks on poison injection don't truly compensate for this) (also shared with Destro Staff)

1.) Why can't snipe be used in a 1v1 senario? So you're telling me I have To gank to use a bow? Plus "snipe stacking" is useless because one dosge roll can evase all three in the air since it takes a milliom years to hit.

Its not good in keep battles at all do you pvp often? Because my experience is this: snipe someone bring them to low hp, the second one is in the air

They rolldodge, my snipe misses and the templar spams breath of life to heal them to full while I keep missing my snipes.

2.) I think you missed my point as a bow man you are suppose to be at range the dmg of gap closers has nothing to with scatter shots short commings. It the fact that it has a 10M RANGE for reference WB has a 7m range

How am I suppose to funtion as a bowman when If I want to CC I have to get in 10m(Melee range) then move 25m away (gap closer range) and start my slow cast time slow travel time dps skill. Think about that does it make any sense?

3.) You aren't supposed to spam poison injection it a DOT man. Spamming it just resets the dot tick LA/HA weaving doesn't provide sufficient enough dps so that's out the picture.

4.) A magic build that uses DW is committed to high burst dmg and at the end of the day thats all PVP is about these days no need to gimp your self "sustaing resources" when you can burst people down quickly and have high healing since

High dmg= High healing.

CP points also alleviate the need for sustain since you get it all from CP.

Bow doesnt need it all it just needs all the skills in the game. It just needs a reliable spam dps skill and a decent CC skill not a half a**ed one.

Also it wouldnt hurt to have some support for bow in class skills/passives.

dday3six

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

70% of bow dps comes from Poison Injection and Volley these dots can easily be replaced with caltrops and rending slashes and if you're a DKs you have the best Dot in the game (obviously if you have the Maelstrom bow you will use Volley)

Volley can only be used in a group play on your own it sucks you can't kite all mobs in the AoE...

With these comments, I think that you have a serious misunderstanding of how DPS and how the BOW in general is used in PVE.

DPS is damage per second. Having more DOTs active at once will mean more damage. Builds will not replace Poison Injection and Endless Hail/Volley with Rending Slashes and Razor Caltrops they'll use all of them. Even DK on single target in group content will use Venomous Claw and Noxious Breath as will as the other four dots.

It's not unless they need the slots for other utility that dots are trimmed because of their importance to DPS output. This os were Maelstrom or PVP builds start to come into play.

I'll also note that Volley/Endless Hail is used in Maelstrom, and you can kite mobs into the AOE. The reason it and often Caltrops are used is because a player can attack portals with both damaging enemies before you can even see them.

Anti_Virus

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Delegator wrote: »

I have run Bow/DW on my main for a long time, and I have difficulty identifying with the complaints.

Snipe: a fantastic opener, not meant to be serially used in a 1v1 situation. It does excellent damage + healing debuff, and because of the travel time you can get a second snipe off before the first even hits. It's a perfect ganking tool, great for keep battles as well.

Scatter Shot: I have just recently started using this more than poison spray in PvP, because it has a host of uses. Defensively it gets melee off your back. Yes, there are gap closers...but a critical charge is nowhere near as damaging as Wrecking Blow, and also I can get off at least a light attack and poison injection by the time that opponent reaches me.

Lack of spammable attack: light/heavy weave with poison injection. If you aren't doing things like animation canceling heavy attacks with poison injection, then you just aren't playing well. Animation canceling allows at least one tick of poison injection to take place while you build your heavy attack damage and stamina return.

Dual Swords for magicka ranged DPS: yeah, I do that on my magicka templar. The big issue with this is that in exchange for the damage boost from Twin Blade & Blunt, you lose any ability to recover magicka via heavy attacks as you would from a resto or destro staff. There are always tradeoffs, even for FOTM builds. Think of all the things you want from your attacks, and NONE of the trees have it all:

• Ranged damage
• Ranged AE
• Point blank AE
• Execute
• Spammable high damage
• Crowd Control
• High damage opener
• Self-heal
• Probably more that I haven't listed

To me, the biggest issues for Bow are:

1. Lack of a self heal (shares this issue with Destro and 1h/Shield)
2. Lack of an execute (the higher ticks on poison injection don't truly compensate for this) (also shared with Destro Staff)

1.) Why can't snipe be used in a 1v1 senario? So you're telling me I have To gank to use a bow? Plus "snipe stacking" is useless because one dosge roll can evase all three in the air since it takes a milliom years to hit.

Its not good in keep battles at all do you pvp often? Because my experience is this: snipe someone bring them to low hp, the second one is in the air

They rolldodge, my snipe misses and the templar spams breath of life to heal them to full while I keep missing my snipes.

2.) I think you missed my point as a bow man you are suppose to be at range the dmg of gap closers has nothing to with scatter shots short commings. It the fact that it has a 10M RANGE for reference WB has a 7m range

How am I suppose to funtion as a bowman when If I want to CC I have to get in 10m(Melee range) then move 25m away (gap closer range) and start my slow cast time slow travel time dps skill. Think about that does it make any sense?

3.) You aren't supposed to spam poison injection it a DOT man. Spamming it just resets the dot tick LA/HA weaving doesn't provide sufficient enough dps so that's out the picture.

4.) A magic build that uses DW is committed to high burst dmg and at the end of the day thats all PVP is about these days no need to gimp your self "sustaing resources" when you can burst people down quickly and have high healing since

High dmg= High healing.

CP points also alleviate the need for sustain since you get it all from CP.

Bow doesnt need it all it just needs all the skills in the game. It just needs a reliable spam dps skill and a decent CC skill not a half a**ed one.

Also it wouldnt hurt to have some support for bow in class skills/passives.

Yep and class skills as well. Right now NBs have only 2 skills that support bow play

-Assassin's Scourge
-Mark Target

We need more skills like this in classes or guild skill lines.