Please tweak some of the bow skills

Toc de Malsvi

Just thought of a possible adjustment to long shots.

Gain 12% damage from over 20m, gain 8% Armor penetration when under 20m.

outsideworld76

Snipe should be an instant skill, it's current setup time is way too large to be usefull in PVP.

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Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@Autolycus

After going back and forth with you previously and spending some time evaluating I think there are two points where the bow is weak and force it into a ganking role for PVP, and a shunned spot in PVE groups.

#1 Scattershot and morphs. Scatter shot is a bad CC, the damage is too high and the range too low, while the CC is virtually non existent as it works counter to putting Poison Arrow/Volley and morphs up. A simple fix would be to make it knock the target down as well as knocking them back 5m. Give one morph a heal and the other minor maim for 3-5s. Also lower the damage, currently it is high enough to tempt you to use it but not high enough to repeat use, while the CC is pathetic.

What is important about Scatter Shot's weakness is that it forces ranged focused builds to wait until their opponents are in melee to use a poor CC option. This moves players away from trying to take on opponents in the open. There are other class options, but this is the bow's option and it is neither good nor does it synergize or make sense from an Archer perspective.

#2 The long shots passive. Bow's are inherently weaker because of a lower weapon damage scale, given the right buff's and positioning though they can certainly compete as you have shown. This passive while looking unique and interesting is fairly annoying outside of pve dps in a group setting. In both VMA and PVP this passive is virtually non existent as a benefit as targets will spend 90% of their time right on top of you. This is a passive that would be better suited as a master weapon bonus. One solution is to grant the weapon damage increase against targets struck by snipe or one of its morphs for 10s or so. Another would be to change this bonus to Piercing Shots and give passive armor penetration, while slightly upping the base damage of bow's.

With the combat system currently in place bow's sacrifice significant output when not used at significant range, this forces players towards ganking unaware opponents rather than taking them on in a fair open fight. In PVE fight's where you are forced into melee put the bow at a disadvantage, that plus the poor output and play of most bow builds causes groups to shun players who main bar bows.

To add to this bow damage is mostly delayed damage which is not something that many find friendly towards challenging content. Given a Maelstrom Weapon bow's have two of the best DOT's in Poison Injection and Scorched Earth, however they lack in immediate direct damage, Snipe takes too long to reach the target. To add to that bow's offer excellent support options as a back bar weapon, while receiving relatively poor support from other weapon lines.

Destruction Staff's do not face this restriction while having a 17m CC that can be morphed into a 28m CC, with variable choices from knockback+knockdown, immobilize, or stun. They also face no damage penalty based on range. I bring up Staff's because they are the only other ranged DPS weapon.

To summarize bow's are not in a particularly bad place however they have significant weakness' that push them towards a ganking/support role. Of course on the other hand they could be like DW relying on a combination of Maelstrom weapons and class skills to be useful...

THIS ^^^^

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outsideworld76 wrote: »

Snipe should be an instant skill, it's current setup time is way too large to be usefull in PVP.

I would recommend that snipe be the bow ultimate, and we get a skill called "rapid fire" if you ever play GW2 ranger class you'll know what I mean.

Autolycus

@Toc de Malsvi

Read through your points. Thought it was very insightful. I don't disagree with anything in particular; I think it's all pretty fair.

Vythri

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@Autolycus

After going back and forth with you previously and spending some time evaluating I think there are two points where the bow is weak and force it into a ganking role for PVP, and a shunned spot in PVE groups.

#1 Scattershot and morphs. Scatter shot is a bad CC, the damage is too high and the range too low, while the CC is virtually non existent as it works counter to putting Poison Arrow/Volley and morphs up. A simple fix would be to make it knock the target down as well as knocking them back 5m. Give one morph a heal and the other minor maim for 3-5s. Also lower the damage, currently it is high enough to tempt you to use it but not high enough to repeat use, while the CC is pathetic.

What is important about Scatter Shot's weakness is that it forces ranged focused builds to wait until their opponents are in melee to use a poor CC option. This moves players away from trying to take on opponents in the open. There are other class options, but this is the bow's option and it is neither good nor does it synergize or make sense from an Archer perspective.

#2 The long shots passive. Bow's are inherently weaker because of a lower weapon damage scale, given the right buff's and positioning though they can certainly compete as you have shown. This passive while looking unique and interesting is fairly annoying outside of pve dps in a group setting. In both VMA and PVP this passive is virtually non existent as a benefit as targets will spend 90% of their time right on top of you. This is a passive that would be better suited as a master weapon bonus. One solution is to grant the weapon damage increase against targets struck by snipe or one of its morphs for 10s or so. Another would be to change this bonus to Piercing Shots and give passive armor penetration, while slightly upping the base damage of bow's.

With the combat system currently in place bow's sacrifice significant output when not used at significant range, this forces players towards ganking unaware opponents rather than taking them on in a fair open fight. In PVE fight's where you are forced into melee put the bow at a disadvantage, that plus the poor output and play of most bow builds causes groups to shun players who main bar bows.

To add to this bow damage is mostly delayed damage which is not something that many find friendly towards challenging content. Given a Maelstrom Weapon bow's have two of the best DOT's in Poison Injection and Scorched Earth, however they lack in immediate direct damage, Snipe takes too long to reach the target. To add to that bow's offer excellent support options as a back bar weapon, while receiving relatively poor support from other weapon lines.

Destruction Staff's do not face this restriction while having a 17m CC that can be morphed into a 28m CC, with variable choices from knockback+knockdown, immobilize, or stun. They also face no damage penalty based on range. I bring up Staff's because they are the only other ranged DPS weapon.

To summarize bow's are not in a particularly bad place however they have significant weakness' that push them towards a ganking/support role. Of course on the other hand they could be like DW relying on a combination of Maelstrom weapons and class skills to be useful...

I think this is a pretty good and pretty reasonable set of things to look at for the developers to make bows feel more useful. It's a starting point at least. Now if we could only get a reply from @Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , or any other dev out there.

None of us here want to see bow be the top of the DPS charts. At least, I don't think so... Ranged weapons shouldn't be. We just want them to be more competitive.

Autolycus

Vythri wrote: »

I think this is a pretty good and pretty reasonable set of things to look at for the developers to make bows feel more useful. It's a starting point at least. Now if we could only get a reply from @Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , or any other dev out there.

None of us here want to see bow be the top of the DPS charts. At least, I don't think so... Ranged weapons shouldn't be. We just want them to be more competitive.

The truth here is that bow dps is in such a good place right now that someone who knows what they're doing is at the top of the dps charts. Stam sorcs, magblades, and stamplars that use melee weapons are, in most cases, still a considerable distance behind what any class can do with a bow in a pve dps setting.

What seems to be more the issue here is not with bows in pve at all, at least not from what I've gathered in my conversations here. I'm not going to nay-say the suggestions for pvp versatility. There are many ways (including those suggested on this thread) to improve the utility of bows in solo-pvp setting without making them "stronger". I've personally seen dozens (who knows, really? Maybe hundreds by this point.) of bow users in pvp that had absolutely no troubles in the survivability department, even when faced with multiple opponents. But, just because some excel with it doesn't mean it couldn't be a little more user-friendly for everyone else.

Since I'm not the guy making the decision, I reserve judgment. All I know is that my non-FOTM builds always lose to good bow builds in pve (FOTM or not).

Vythri

Autolycus wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

I think this is a pretty good and pretty reasonable set of things to look at for the developers to make bows feel more useful. It's a starting point at least. Now if we could only get a reply from @Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , or any other dev out there.

None of us here want to see bow be the top of the DPS charts. At least, I don't think so... Ranged weapons shouldn't be. We just want them to be more competitive.

The truth here is that bow dps is in such a good place right now that someone who knows what they're doing is at the top of the dps charts. Stam sorcs, magblades, and stamplars that use melee weapons are, in most cases, still a considerable distance behind what any class can do with a bow in a pve dps setting.

What seems to be more the issue here is not with bows in pve at all, at least not from what I've gathered in my conversations here. I'm not going to nay-say the suggestions for pvp versatility. There are many ways (including those suggested on this thread) to improve the utility of bows in solo-pvp setting without making them "stronger". I've personally seen dozens (who knows, really? Maybe hundreds by this point.) of bow users in pvp that had absolutely no troubles in the survivability department, even when faced with multiple opponents. But, just because some excel with it doesn't mean it couldn't be a little more user-friendly for everyone else.

Since I'm not the guy making the decision, I reserve judgment. All I know is that my non-FOTM builds always lose to good bow builds in pve (FOTM or not).

Yeah, what I'm mainly talking about is in PvP. My issues are with the utility skills and not the damage dealing ones more often than not.

Scatter Shot and it's morphs need to have a longer cast distance. Especially when compared with what Destruction Staff has to offer.

Arrow Spray, and it's morphs need to be more responsive and accurate when aiming.

Snipe and it's morphs need to have the flight time increased decreased (whoops, lol) a bit (although I have no issue with the cast duration). Just to make it a bit harder to dodge roll out of it.

As said before, the long shots passive needs reworked. It's kinda useless in PvP with all of the gap closers that are out there (outside of the initial burst from range). I like the idea somebody else put out there that the damage buff stays over 20m, and inside of 20m you gain something different like armor penetration, or something else like an 10% chance to apply a 10% speed debuff on all bow based attacks and skills. Tweak the numbers a bit if you have to. Even change the name of the passive to Master Archer or something since it's no longer based on "long shots." That would really make the bow skill tree interesting and fun.

I'd love if the Hawk Eye passive lasted a touch longer as well.

It doesn't really need to be a lot of complete redesigns. Just some tweaks here and there to make it really stand out in PvP, but not make it OP.

Come on @Wrobel work with us here lol.

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Vythri wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

I think this is a pretty good and pretty reasonable set of things to look at for the developers to make bows feel more useful. It's a starting point at least. Now if we could only get a reply from @Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , or any other dev out there.

None of us here want to see bow be the top of the DPS charts. At least, I don't think so... Ranged weapons shouldn't be. We just want them to be more competitive.

The truth here is that bow dps is in such a good place right now that someone who knows what they're doing is at the top of the dps charts. Stam sorcs, magblades, and stamplars that use melee weapons are, in most cases, still a considerable distance behind what any class can do with a bow in a pve dps setting.

What seems to be more the issue here is not with bows in pve at all, at least not from what I've gathered in my conversations here. I'm not going to nay-say the suggestions for pvp versatility. There are many ways (including those suggested on this thread) to improve the utility of bows in solo-pvp setting without making them "stronger". I've personally seen dozens (who knows, really? Maybe hundreds by this point.) of bow users in pvp that had absolutely no troubles in the survivability department, even when faced with multiple opponents. But, just because some excel with it doesn't mean it couldn't be a little more user-friendly for everyone else.

Since I'm not the guy making the decision, I reserve judgment. All I know is that my non-FOTM builds always lose to good bow builds in pve (FOTM or not).

Yeah, what I'm mainly talking about is in PvP. My issues are with the utility skills and not the damage dealing ones more often than not.

Scatter Shot and it's morphs need to have a longer cast distance. Especially when compared with what Destruction Staff has to offer.

Arrow Spray, and it's morphs need to be more responsive and accurate when aiming.

Snipe and it's morphs need to have the flight time increased a bit (although I have no issue with the cast duration). Just to make it a bit harder to dodge roll out of it.

As said before, the long shots passive needs reworked. It's kinda useless in PvP with all of the gap closers that are out there (outside of the initial burst from range). I like the idea somebody else put out there that the damage buff stays over 20m, and inside of 20m you gain something different like armor penetration, or something else like an 10% reduced movement speed debuff. Tweak the numbers a bit if you have to. Even change the name of the passive to Master Archer or something since it's no longer based on "long shots."

I'd love if the Hawk Eye passive lasted a touch longer as well.

It doesn't really need to be a lot of complete redesigns. Just some tweaks here and there to make it really stand out in PvP, but not make it OP.

Pretty much outlined what the bow needs,

I would recommend that snipe be replaced with a new skill called "rapid fire" it would work similarly like flurry except you fire arrows.

Snipe could be the bow ultimate if they ever add weapon skill line ultimates.