Dragon Blood - A Detailed Discussion & Suggestion

Panth141

Hi @Wrobel - as you like to see numbers, I thought I would channel my inner @Asayre and dust off Matlab for some analysis of Dragon Blood.

TL;DR is at the end.

The Issue
Dragon Blood is not fit for purpose - the scaling system used to calculate the heal is inferior to most other heals in PvE and all other heals in PvP. The current system rewards only those who stack massively into health, and the lack of stat scaling makes it a dud for min-maxers.





The general trend of the heal can be seen in the above figure - it is clear that, for the average 18-25k health player, the heal received is disappointing even at low health. For a player with 20k health, the largest base PvE heal that they could ever receive is 6,667 - and to receive this they have to effectively have zero health remaining.

A Proposal
My interest was piqued by a point made by @Joy_Division here.
The idea was to set a base heal for DB that scaled on max magicka and spell damage, as do most skills, but add a modifier based on your missing health.


After a bit of tweaking and experimenting, I tried the following formulae:





The base heal is defined similarly to other skills; the a, b & c values were just manipulated to give reasonable values - they may need adjusting.
The first term in the 'heal' equation is the low-health modifier - it is based around an exponential growth, but modified to ensure that it doesn't scale too quickly, increasing significantly at low health.

A plot of this heal is shown below - the three planes correspond to three increasing magicka/SD combinations.




The bias towards health-stacking has been reduced to a less significant increase with higher health: the focus is that you get a bigger heal when you have lower health.
For a player with 20k health, the PvE heals would be:




These values are not perfect and the a, b, c and modifier values would need adjusting to optimise and balance the skill. Obviously the heals are half this value in PvP.

Issues for stamDK
The fact that the heal would scale from maximum magicka and SD should prevent this from being an unneeded buff to stamDK; for a 12,000 magicka, 1800SD player the largest possible heal is 4028 at zero health. Again, this could be tweaked by adjusting the a/b/c values. For GDB I'm in two minds as to the best change - adjust the heal component to the new formula, or just leave it as it is? AFAIK stamDKs who use either morph of DB use it for the buff rather than the heal - but I could be wrong.

Other Comments & 'Edge-Cases'
The issue with the health-stacking magicka DK should be lessened by the changed formula; higher max health gives slightly larger heals between 99-20% current health, but when the big heals kick in at low health they are about equal across the board.

True hybrid builds who have reasonable magicka/SD could get a fair heal from an adjusted DB. Good for them - I don't see this as an issue as they are hurt in so many other ways by playing a hybrid.

I'm still in two minds as to whether a changed DB should be able to crit: if you're at low health then DB will give a solid heal - a 1.5-2x crit multiplier could lead to ridiculous builds that consistently shoot back up to full health at the push of a button (don't bring up BoL!). In a similar vein but with a different conclusion - I see no reason why this shouldn't be affected by major mending. Builds with access to major mending are already using it to get obscene burst heals, so I don't really see much of an imbalance.

Conclusion and Comparisons
The idea here is not to make DB an OP skill - if that is what this suggestion does with the current values then they need adjusting. This isn't supposed to be a DK Breath of Life; it's an attempt to make an underused and outmatched skill somewhat viable. In PvP it will not give very large heals, but hopefully they will be enough to at least give people the option of getting good usage ou of DB.

TL;DR
Change the DB heal to give a base value scaled off max magicka and SD, increased based on your missing health. Probably shouldn't be able to crit to avoid ridiculous heals.

I suck at getting images right on the forums - bear with me if they aren't in the right places!

Panth141

... fixed the images

Teridaxus

I think it should be mentioned that the heatlh regen and stamina regen buff ( gdb morph ) are mostly useless right now because of potions and stam regen being useless for people who block often.

Stam dks also rely more on rally and vigor since we normaly use earthern heart abilites to restore stam with our magicka, but i do still miss the old and strong magicka heal which used to scale with health for my tank.since our points are in weapon damage and stam.
It was actual a quite equal heal for both stam and magicka, since magicka dk need more heatlh since they got no shield. ( igneous is used for major mending )

DDuke

You should consider the amount of +healing received self buffs DKs are able to get, particularly next patch.

At the moment:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +6-7%
Malubeth +30%

Next patch:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +8%
Malubeth +30%
Major Vitality (potion) +30%


& then there's Blessed & Quick Recovery, which significantly increase the power of Dragon Blood.

Panth141

DDuke wrote: »

You should consider the amount of +healing received self buffs DKs are able to get, particularly next patch.

At the moment:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +6-7%
Malubeth +30%

Next patch:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +8%
Malubeth +30%
Major Vitality (potion) +30%


& then there's Blessed & Quick Recovery, which significantly increase the power of Dragon Blood.

Good points - quick question on Burning Heart - does this apply to a single cast of Dragon Blood? I.e. does the passive effect proc before the heal component of DB, or after? Or would it rely on having Spiked Amour (+morphs) up?

I'm still unsure on the Major Vitality potions - from my experimentation with PTS reagents, the best I could get was a Restore Health + Major Resolve + Major Vitality - do you think many people will give up their resource/major brutality/major sorcery potions?

I guess what I'm really asking is if the changes you list for next update will be that significant - the +1% for HA isn't much, and the Major Vitality potion is very situational, in which case the difference to live is minimal - and DB is largely seen as inadequate on live.

Firerock2

Finally a Dragon's Blood proposal that addresses the fact that Stam DK's would get an unnecessary buff. This is a great idea!

DDuke

Panth141 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You should consider the amount of +healing received self buffs DKs are able to get, particularly next patch.

At the moment:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +6-7%
Malubeth +30%

Next patch:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +8%
Malubeth +30%
Major Vitality (potion) +30%


& then there's Blessed & Quick Recovery, which significantly increase the power of Dragon Blood.

Good points - quick question on Burning Heart - does this apply to a single cast of Dragon Blood? I.e. does the passive effect proc before the heal component of DB, or after? Or would it rely on having Spiked Amour (+morphs) up?

I'm still unsure on the Major Vitality potions - from my experimentation with PTS reagents, the best I could get was a Restore Health + Major Resolve + Major Vitality - do you think many people will give up their resource/major brutality/major sorcery potions?

I guess what I'm really asking is if the changes you list for next update will be that significant - the +1% for HA isn't much, and the Major Vitality potion is very situational, in which case the difference to live is minimal - and DB is largely seen as inadequate on live.

I'm not sure which procs first, but I always have the passive active on my Stamina & Magicka DKs.

You are correct about heavy armor, the buff wasn't that big (1%), but it's something.

As for the potions... it is definitely worth using the Major Vitality potions in PvP. In a world where Major Mending (+25% healing) makes you pretty much unkillable in 1v1 fights, +30% healing from potions is insane.

It's like having a Malubeth proc active, always.

It's just about as situational as something like Vigor or Rally and could push DB to be a viable self heal for magicka DKs (I will definitely test this).

You are basicly trading tri-stat potions for the buff however, so it'll have an effect on sustain. Major Brutality/Sorcery you should be getting from Rally or Degeneration/Molten Armaments already.

Panth141

DDuke wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You should consider the amount of +healing received self buffs DKs are able to get, particularly next patch.

At the moment:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +6-7%
Malubeth +30%

Next patch:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +8%
Malubeth +30%
Major Vitality (potion) +30%


& then there's Blessed & Quick Recovery, which significantly increase the power of Dragon Blood.

Good points - quick question on Burning Heart - does this apply to a single cast of Dragon Blood? I.e. does the passive effect proc before the heal component of DB, or after? Or would it rely on having Spiked Amour (+morphs) up?

I'm still unsure on the Major Vitality potions - from my experimentation with PTS reagents, the best I could get was a Restore Health + Major Resolve + Major Vitality - do you think many people will give up their resource/major brutality/major sorcery potions?

I guess what I'm really asking is if the changes you list for next update will be that significant - the +1% for HA isn't much, and the Major Vitality potion is very situational, in which case the difference to live is minimal - and DB is largely seen as inadequate on live.

I'm not sure which procs first, but I always have the passive active on my Stamina & Magicka DKs.

You are correct about heavy armor, the buff wasn't that big (1%), but it's something.

As for the potions... it is definitely worth using the Major Vitality potions in PvP. In a world where Major Mending (+25% healing) makes you pretty much unkillable in 1v1 fights, +30% healing from potions is insane.

It's like having a Malubeth proc active, always.

It's just about as situational as something like Vigor or Rally and could push DB to be a viable self heal for magicka DKs (I will definitely test this).

You are basicly trading tri-stat potions for the buff however, so it'll have an effect on sustain. Major Brutality/Sorcery you should be getting from Rally or Degeneration/Molten Armaments already.

I agree that the Major Vitality potions could be a big shift, but I'm not sure that the usefulness and viability of a skill can be defined exclusively based on a buff available from only one type of potion. I expect that it will be experimented with by players (I know I will try running without resto, which would be great), but the sacrifice to sustain may be too high of a cost - especially with the resource drain poisons - and just push me back to restoration staff.

Armitas

DDuke wrote: »

At the moment:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +6-7%
Malubeth +30%

That is a shopping list of everything it takes right now for Dragonblood to even approach being a viable heal.

DDuke

Armitas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

At the moment:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +6-7%
Malubeth +30%

That is a shopping list of everything it takes right now for Dragonblood to even approach being a viable heal.

Maybe, but if you look at how you activate most of the things in that list...

Burning Heart - Volatile Armor, Scales, Igneous Blood
Major Mending - Igneous Shield
Minor Vitality - Igneous Blood

That's not too bad requirements for the heal, most of those have fairly long duration & you aren't really punished for slotting/using them.


This'll all have to be tested next patch to see if it really is viable enough with the +30% potion - I do hope so because I play a mage style magicka DK (Fire/Frost Staff) & Dampen Magic+Igneous often aren't really enough to survive

Armitas

DDuke wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

At the moment:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +6-7%
Malubeth +30%

That is a shopping list of everything it takes right now for Dragonblood to even approach being a viable heal.

This'll all have to be tested next patch to see if it really is viable enough with the +30% potion - I do hope so because I play a mage style magicka DK (Fire/Frost Staff) & Dampen Magic+Igneous often aren't really enough to survive

I try that every once in a while but it's just so punishing. That or I'm just too uncomfortable to play it naturally yet, or through the lag. Are you going to switch to annulment for db? or are you sticking with igneous?

DDuke

Armitas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

At the moment:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +6-7%
Malubeth +30%

That is a shopping list of everything it takes right now for Dragonblood to even approach being a viable heal.

This'll all have to be tested next patch to see if it really is viable enough with the +30% potion - I do hope so because I play a mage style magicka DK (Fire/Frost Staff) & Dampen Magic+Igneous often aren't really enough to survive

I try that every once in a while but it's just so punishing. That or I'm just too uncomfortable to play it naturally yet, or through the lag. Are you going to switch to annulment for db? or are you sticking with igneous?

Every patch I try to make that type of magicka DK work, but it's kind of a disappointment every time.

I'll try both this time, Dampen Magic & Igneous (and Igneous Blood as self heal) - hopefully it'll work out.

It's quite fun to play, but very, very squishy & weak against stamina builds particularly.

Panth141

DDuke wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

At the moment:
Burning Heart Passive +12%
Major Mending +25%
Minor Vitality +8%
Heavy Armor +6-7%
Malubeth +30%

That is a shopping list of everything it takes right now for Dragonblood to even approach being a viable heal.

This'll all have to be tested next patch to see if it really is viable enough with the +30% potion - I do hope so because I play a mage style magicka DK (Fire/Frost Staff) & Dampen Magic+Igneous often aren't really enough to survive

I try that every once in a while but it's just so punishing. That or I'm just too uncomfortable to play it naturally yet, or through the lag. Are you going to switch to annulment for db? or are you sticking with igneous?

Every patch I try to make that type of magicka DK work, but it's kind of a disappointment every time.

I'll try both this time, Dampen Magic & Igneous (and Igneous Blood as self heal) - hopefully it'll work out.

It's quite fun to play, but very, very squishy & weak against stamina builds particularly.

Then surely a change to Dragon Blood could go a good way to entirely revitalise this (I agree, most fun, hardest work!) type of mDK?

Rohamad_Ali

My algebra app keeps crashing . Now ai have to find a pencil ... Brb

Where were the champion points placed in this test ? Any in the crit or healing recieved bonuses ?

Or is this a no CP test ?

BlackMadara

The concerns for dragon blood being over powered with this type of scaling plus the healing modifiers in the DK class are unwarranted when compared to breath of life, the easiest comparison (due to being used a an in class self heal). The first thing we should consider is that BoL also heals another. Dragon blood only heals yourself. Templars also have access to major mending and increased healing for low health targets. So these types of healing buffs exist. If DB scales of mag and SD, it's numbers should just be tweaked to be weaker at high hp than BoL but stronger at let's say 50% hp with equivalent stats for balance.

I have commented on this issue before and people have raised concerns about DB not scaling with hp. It seems you have addressed this issue so it's not weak for tanks but what if the flat value of DB was a percentage of Max hp that then increases with missing hp?

Firerock2

BlackMadara wrote: »

The concerns for dragon blood being over powered with this type of scaling plus the healing modifiers in the DK class are unwarranted when compared to breath of life, the easiest comparison (due to being used a an in class self heal). The first thing we should consider is that BoL also heals another. Dragon blood only heals yourself. Templars also have access to major mending and increased healing for low health targets. So these types of healing buffs exist. If DB scales of mag and SD, it's numbers should just be tweaked to be weaker at high hp than BoL but stronger at let's say 50% hp with equivalent stats for balance.

I have commented on this issue before and people have raised concerns about DB not scaling with hp. It seems you have addressed this issue so it's not weak for tanks but what if the flat value of DB was a percentage of Max hp that then increases with missing hp?

That would give stam DK's access to a burst heal that doesn't eat their main resource. NO

Panth141

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

My algebra app keeps crashing . Now ai have to find a pencil ... Brb

Where were the champion points placed in this test ? Any in the crit or healing recieved bonuses ?

Or is this a no CP test ?

No - CP were not accounted for - but by simply looking at the base values and doing a quick comparison with the base values for other healing skills you can get a view on heals with CP, given that the CP % boost would increase both the DB heal and comparison heals by the same percentage. Including CP would be doable by combining the increased % from Blessed & Quick recovery, fixing SD & MM at a reasonable value and then plotting planes of various CP on the existing axes. Perhaps I'll add this in.

Crit - as I mentioned in the OP - is something I'm in two minds about. I'm leaning towards not allowing the heal to crit, as the heals quickly become ridiculous.

BlackMadara wrote: »

The concerns for dragon blood being over powered with this type of scaling plus the healing modifiers in the DK class are unwarranted when compared to breath of life, the easiest comparison (due to being used a an in class self heal). The first thing we should consider is that BoL also heals another. Dragon blood only heals yourself. Templars also have access to major mending and increased healing for low health targets. So these types of healing buffs exist. If DB scales of mag and SD, it's numbers should just be tweaked to be weaker at high hp than BoL but stronger at let's say 50% hp with equivalent stats for balance.

I have commented on this issue before and people have raised concerns about DB not scaling with hp. It seems you have addressed this issue so it's not weak for tanks but what if the flat value of DB was a percentage of Max hp that then increases with missing hp?

Yep - though the one trade-off with BoL is that it isn't a guaranteed heal for yourself, whilst DB is - it's for this reason that I think DB should never be a larger heal than a well specced magplar's BoL, otherwise it leans towards being OP.

I tried to make sure that there was still some benefit for high health players, but if you scale the base off max health you're back to the skill being useless for the majority of mDKs who aren't tanks/health-stacking

EDIT: plus this

Firerock2 wrote: »

That would give stam DK's access to a burst heal that doesn't eat their main resource. NO

BlackMadara

@Firerock2 a legitimate concern, buy DB is a very expensive skill. Most stam DKs already run wings and igneous shield. Could indeed be a problem though. Doesn't the werewolf heal use magicka? How does it scale?

@Panth141 I thought the same at first, but he main reason DB sucks in PvP now is due to battle spirit cutting it to 16.5% missing HP. If the flat heal value for 20k hp player scaled with 10% HP, increasing by up to 300% based on missing HP, then the heal at 50% would be a 5k heal in pve. I make this argument because it seems that ZOS wants to keep DB health scaling, anti execute niche. Also, I want to be the guy that argues for another way. Maybe encouraging others to add changes to ideas or add their own we haven't thought about.