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Class Skills and Major Brutality/Sorcery
talashgreydragb16_ESO
Soul Shriven
Straight away I'll admit that this is hardly the biggest balance issue around, and in fairness this is more a convenience thing, but I've always found it weird how the classes have been balanced when it comes to these highly desirable buffs. Let's face it: DPS-wise this is one of the most sought-after buffs, and ALMOST all the classes have access to it (when taking into account guild and weapon skills, everyone does eventually). So what am I going to talk about? Simple:
Why do some class skills provide one or the other of these buffs, and not both?
Whilst I can't speak for the developers, I have long thought that the best part of skill morphing is the fact that it allows the player to choose between two equally compelling choices, meaning that there are less cookie-cutter builds and more variety in the game. The fact that buffs such as Surge, Drain Power and Molten Weapons only give one or the other (pre-morph) out of Major Brutality and Major Sorcery means that one morph is the definitive stamina choice, and the other the definitive magicka choice. How boring! Even though morphs are increasingly going this way (and that's a discussion for another day) it seems silly to make people choose when these skills could just provide BOTH buffs to the player, as only one is going to be useful anyway! This means the developers could change the morphs to be a little more interesting, and actually create a choice for players.
Here are some ideas I had off the top of my head:
Surge: Now provides both buffs as per standard! Heals player on crits.
Critical Surge: Heal is slightly larger (20% or so) and heals any pets as well.
Power Surge: Now provides the Minor Expedition buff for the duration. Provides extra mobility instead of bigger heals/pet survivability.
Molten Weapons: Now provides the player (and only the player!) both Major Brutality and Major Sorcery.
Igneous Weapons: Now increases the damage of fully-charged heavy attacks by 40%. (Same as current, but also giving Major Brutality!)
Molten Armaments: Buffs all allies in range. Also provides the Minor Resolve and Minor Ward buffs for the duration to the caster. (Survivability/Group Utility over DPS, helpful for tanks perhaps! Buff your entire group and give you more armour/spell resistance.)
Drain power: Now provides both buffs to the player on cast, so long as it hits at least one opponent. Magic damage.
Power Extraction: Uses stamina. Disease damage. Does 20% more damage over unmorphed version. Snares all targets hit by 30%. (Clearly the stamina morph; the skill is good as it is IMO but needs a small damage boost to compete with other stamina AOEs, and the small snare helps.)
Sap Essence: Same as on live, except the heal only applies to the caster and one ally. Make the heal closer in value to the Dragonknight Inhale, whilst also providing buffs instead of interrupting spellcasting/returning magicka and a second much more powerful hit.
Now Templars are a special case, because they don't actually have a way to get either Major Brutality or Major Sorcery outside of weapon/guild skills, but they DO have easy access to both Major Savagery and Major Prophecy (Biting Jabs and Sunfire respectively) so I think it's fair.
Why do some class skills provide one or the other of these buffs, and not both?
Whilst I can't speak for the developers, I have long thought that the best part of skill morphing is the fact that it allows the player to choose between two equally compelling choices, meaning that there are less cookie-cutter builds and more variety in the game. The fact that buffs such as Surge, Drain Power and Molten Weapons only give one or the other (pre-morph) out of Major Brutality and Major Sorcery means that one morph is the definitive stamina choice, and the other the definitive magicka choice. How boring! Even though morphs are increasingly going this way (and that's a discussion for another day) it seems silly to make people choose when these skills could just provide BOTH buffs to the player, as only one is going to be useful anyway! This means the developers could change the morphs to be a little more interesting, and actually create a choice for players.
Here are some ideas I had off the top of my head:
Surge: Now provides both buffs as per standard! Heals player on crits.
Critical Surge: Heal is slightly larger (20% or so) and heals any pets as well.
Power Surge: Now provides the Minor Expedition buff for the duration. Provides extra mobility instead of bigger heals/pet survivability.
Molten Weapons: Now provides the player (and only the player!) both Major Brutality and Major Sorcery.
Igneous Weapons: Now increases the damage of fully-charged heavy attacks by 40%. (Same as current, but also giving Major Brutality!)
Molten Armaments: Buffs all allies in range. Also provides the Minor Resolve and Minor Ward buffs for the duration to the caster. (Survivability/Group Utility over DPS, helpful for tanks perhaps! Buff your entire group and give you more armour/spell resistance.)
Drain power: Now provides both buffs to the player on cast, so long as it hits at least one opponent. Magic damage.
Power Extraction: Uses stamina. Disease damage. Does 20% more damage over unmorphed version. Snares all targets hit by 30%. (Clearly the stamina morph; the skill is good as it is IMO but needs a small damage boost to compete with other stamina AOEs, and the small snare helps.)
Sap Essence: Same as on live, except the heal only applies to the caster and one ally. Make the heal closer in value to the Dragonknight Inhale, whilst also providing buffs instead of interrupting spellcasting/returning magicka and a second much more powerful hit.
Now Templars are a special case, because they don't actually have a way to get either Major Brutality or Major Sorcery outside of weapon/guild skills, but they DO have easy access to both Major Savagery and Major Prophecy (Biting Jabs and Sunfire respectively) so I think it's fair.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nice ideas & I mostly agree with you.
There's virtually no reason at the moment to use something like Igneous Weapons as a stamina DK - it's just a severely gimped version of Rally, why would anyone ever slot it?
Same thing with Surge - the magicka morph of the skill is weak & there's virtually no good reason for slotting it.
I'd also like to say about Power Extraction/Sap Essence that this skill needs to give you Major Brutality/Sorcery without being forced to hit a target. This requirement makes it unusable in any bow build & pigeonholes Nightblades into using a 2H weapon if they want to buff themselves while stealthed.
Another option would be adding Major Brutality to Evil Hunter as well, since this Fighters Guild skill is significantly weaker now that they removed the extra damage/stamina return it used to give. This would give Nightblades/Templars access to the buff, without being forced to play a 2H build.Edited by DDuke on May 19, 2016 11:31AM0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.1 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nice ideas & I mostly agree with you.
There's virtually no reason at the moment to use something like Igneous Weapons as a stamina DK - it's just a severely gimped version of Rally, why would anyone ever slot it?
Same thing with Surge - the magicka morph of the skill is weak & there's virtually no good reason for slotting it.
I'd also like to say about Power Extraction/Sap Essence that this skill needs to give you Major Brutality/Sorcery without being forced to hit a target. This requirement makes it unusable in any bow build & pigeonholes Nightblades into using a 2H weapon if they want to buff themselves while stealthed.
Another option would be adding Major Brutality to Evil Hunter as well, since this Fighters Guild skill is significantly weaker now that they removed the extra damage/stamina return it used to give. This would give Nightblades/Templars access to the buff, without being forced to play a 2H build.
Other than the fact it gives Major Sorcery for 30/s and makes your hands look cool.
Whenever people talk about how things are good or bad... they never mention PvP or PvE... many things that aren't viable/useful in PvP are useful in PvE and vice-versa. This is why I wish they'd find some way to make these 'balance' changes apply ONLY in PvP areas and leave PvE skills as-is.Edited by ADarklore on May 19, 2016 12:11PMCP: 1965 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.1 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
Edited by Cinbri on May 19, 2016 12:34PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.Edited by DDuke on May 19, 2016 1:07PM1 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There's virtually no reason at the moment to use something like Igneous Weapons as a stamina DK - it's just a severely gimped version of Rally, why would anyone ever slot it?
Have to disagree here. First off, rally requires you to use a 2hander in one of your weapon slots, igneous allows you to use dual wield, bow, or 1h/shield without the need for 2h for a major brutality buff. TBH, the only reason rally is so good is because it provides one of only two stamina based heals.
Second, every time you use igneous weapons, earthen heart passives are giving you an additional 5% damage from minor brutality at the same time (so 25% total, instead of only 20%), restoring 5% of your total stamina pool, and if you're in combat grants 3 extra ultimate.
With flurry getting a heal morph, and the fact that blood craze already heals and DKs have access to a major mending buff via igneous shield, I dont think the healing from rally will be necessary anymore, and all of the other benefits of igneous weapons outweight the 2h requirement.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There's virtually no reason at the moment to use something like Igneous Weapons as a stamina DK - it's just a severely gimped version of Rally, why would anyone ever slot it?
Have to disagree here. First off, rally requires you to use a 2hander in one of your weapon slots, igneous allows you to use dual wield, bow, or 1h/shield without the need for 2h for a major brutality buff. TBH, the only reason rally is so good is because it provides one of only two stamina based heals.
Second, every time you use igneous weapons, earthen heart passives are giving you an additional 5% damage from minor brutality at the same time (so 25% total, instead of only 20%), restoring 5% of your total stamina pool, and if you're in combat grants 3 extra ultimate.
With flurry getting a heal morph, and the fact that blood craze already heals and DKs have access to a major mending buff via igneous shield, I dont think the healing from rally will be necessary anymore, and all of the other benefits of igneous weapons outweight the 2h requirement.
Igneous is a dead skill on bar that does nothing but grant a buff. It does not act as a self heal, it has virtually no other reason to exist on your bar than to grant that buff. Is it really worth a skill slot?
As for the Earthen Heart passives, you already get those from using Igneous Shield or Fossilize, both which happen to be on the same tree.
When making strong PvP builds, the thought process should be "is every skill on my bar valuable? do they synergize with each other? what if...", and once you go through that thought process, you eliminate the weakest links & replace them with stronger things. This ends up with Igneous Weapons flying out the window.Edited by DDuke on May 19, 2016 1:15PM1 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭There's virtually no reason at the moment to use something like Igneous Weapons as a stamina DK - it's just a severely gimped version of Rally, why would anyone ever slot it?
Have to disagree here. First off, rally requires you to use a 2hander in one of your weapon slots, igneous allows you to use dual wield, bow, or 1h/shield without the need for 2h for a major brutality buff. TBH, the only reason rally is so good is because it provides one of only two stamina based heals.
Second, every time you use igneous weapons, earthen heart passives are giving you an additional 5% damage from minor brutality at the same time (so 25% total, instead of only 20%), restoring 5% of your total stamina pool, and if you're in combat grants 3 extra ultimate.
With flurry getting a heal morph, and the fact that blood craze already heals and DKs have access to a major mending buff via igneous shield, I dont think the healing from rally will be necessary anymore, and all of the other benefits of igneous weapons outweight the 2h requirement.
Igneous is a dead skill on bar that does nothing but grant a buff. It does not act as a self heal, it has virtually no other reason to exist on your bar than to grant that buff. Is it really worth a skill slot?
As for the Earthen Heart passives, you already get those from using Igneous Shield or Fossilize, both which happen to be on the same tree.
When making strong PvP builds, the thought process should be "is every skill on my bar valuable? do they synergize with each other? what if...", and once you go through that thought process, you eliminate the weakest links & replace them with stronger things. This ends up with Igneous Weapons flying out the window.
Or you could play what us fun to you... but anyway a strong PvP build (if new flurry is useful in DB, haven't tested it yet) could be dw and bow. The only source or major brutality you would have is hidden blade, which requires you to attack someone. So igneous can be igneous can indeed be useful for those not wanting to be locked into a 2h, having to use pots for the buff, or not wanting to use hidden blade.0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Wanna play "Bow/DW", than play it, noone taking away this possibility from you, DW even got nice buffs. Wanna get brutality buff - slot 2h. I don't need major buffs, i need strong HoT - I restricted to play with resto-staff on off-bar. That is just that simple.I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.
I don't mind to play in Pelinal Aptitude set with Mutagen+Rally on snb off-bar, without being restricted to weapons, to stack HoTs and damage buffs... Not gonna happen in MMO.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Wanna play "Bow/DW", than play it, noone taking away this possibility from you, DW even got nice buffs. Wanna get brutality buff - slot 2h. I don't need major buffs, i need strong HoT - I restricted to play with resto-staff on off-bar. That is just that simple.I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.
I don't mind to play in Pelinal Aptitude set with Mutagen+Rally on snb off-bar, without being restricted to weapons, to stack HoTs and damage buffs... Not gonna happen in MMO.
No, it's not that simple.
To deal good damage with that Bow (or good damage from melee sneak attacks) I have to slot a 2H weapon. How is this so difficult to understand?
If I go DW instead, I only lose damage when I can't give myself Major Brutality.
It's easy for you to talk as magicka templar about things that don't affect you - what would you think if Major Sorcery from Degeneration was moved into some destruction staff skill instead, would that make you happy?
No, it probably wouldn't - all it would do is pigeonhole every magicka DPS into slotting destruction staff in PvP. Kind of like Major Brutality is pigeonholing every stamina DPS who wants to remain competitive into 2H.
Heck, by that same logic you could say "if you want to play a naked pugilist in PvP, you can do so" - yes, it's a possibility but is it a good option?
This is all about making options that do not involve 2H good as well and increasing the build diversity in this game.Edited by DDuke on May 19, 2016 4:23PM1 -
Asmael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There's virtually no reason at the moment to use something like Igneous Weapons as a stamina DK - it's just a severely gimped version of Rally, why would anyone ever slot it?
To avoid having to use major pots for those random pledges, since most mobs die before you even complete a full rotation.
Just imagine all the gold you could have spared with a DK using it! Or all the time wasted on picking flowers, when your friendly DK can give it to ya for free!
...Other than that, yup it's useless, and I switch it out for Rearming traps for those fights where the boss takes more than 15 seconds to die.PC EU - Zahraji of the Void, aka "Kitty", the fluffiest salmon genocider in town.
Poke @AsmaeI (last letter is uppercase "i") on PC EU or Asmael#9325 on Discord and receive a meow today.1 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
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You still refusing to think outside of box, i don't understand why.
Wanna play "Bow/DW", than play it, noone taking away this possibility from you, DW even got nice buffs. Wanna get brutality buff - slot 2h. I don't need major buffs, i need strong HoT - I restricted to play with resto-staff on off-bar. That is just that simple.I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.
I don't mind to play in Pelinal Aptitude set with Mutagen+Rally on snb off-bar, without being restricted to weapons, to stack HoTs and damage buffs... Not gonna happen in MMO.
No, it's not that simple.
To deal good damage with that Bow (or good damage from melee sneak attacks) I have to slot a 2H weapon. How is this so difficult to understand?
If I go DW instead, I only lose damage when I can't give myself Major Brutality.
It's easy for you to talk as magicka templar about things that don't affect you - what would you think if Major Sorcery from Degeneration was moved into some destruction staff skill instead, would that make you happy?
No, it probably wouldn't - all it would do is pigeonhole every magicka DPS into slotting destruction staff in PvP. Kind of like Major Brutality is pigeonholing every stamina DPS who wants to remain competitive into 2H.
Heck, by that same logic you could say "if you want to play a naked pugilist in PvP, you can do so" - yes, it's a possibility but is it a good option?
This is all about making options that do not involve 2H good as well.
Yes, you have to slot 2h to increase you damage, just like I have to slot resto-staff to get strong HoT and give up on tankiness of snb off-bar.
Denereation and Major Sorcery linked to skill, is locating in guild skill line, those are not restricted to any weapon or armor type to give us diversity. If it would be moved to destro-staff: 1. people would either not use it, and rebalance their builds 2. people would slot destro-staff to get this buff. Personally, as "magicka templar" if it would move there i will be given with same option as before - i will have to use destro-staff to get this buff.
P.S.: there was time that nobody remember already when Entropy didn't grant Major Sorcery buff, and templars couldn't get this buff without pots untill patch v1.6.5. And it wasn't the end of universe, people wasn't so obsessed with it and it wasn't affecting their competitiveness. To prevent situation you describe, I simply excluded it from my build and replaced with other usefull skill long-long time ago, so remove of it from Degeneration would have zero affect on me and everyone who is not using it.
@Asmael teammates are very unhappy when dk use his molten weapons in veteran Maw of Lorkhaj and negating their pots.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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You still refusing to think outside of box, i don't understand why.
Wanna play "Bow/DW", than play it, noone taking away this possibility from you, DW even got nice buffs. Wanna get brutality buff - slot 2h. I don't need major buffs, i need strong HoT - I restricted to play with resto-staff on off-bar. That is just that simple.I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.
I don't mind to play in Pelinal Aptitude set with Mutagen+Rally on snb off-bar, without being restricted to weapons, to stack HoTs and damage buffs... Not gonna happen in MMO.
No, it's not that simple.
To deal good damage with that Bow (or good damage from melee sneak attacks) I have to slot a 2H weapon. How is this so difficult to understand?
If I go DW instead, I only lose damage when I can't give myself Major Brutality.
It's easy for you to talk as magicka templar about things that don't affect you - what would you think if Major Sorcery from Degeneration was moved into some destruction staff skill instead, would that make you happy?
No, it probably wouldn't - all it would do is pigeonhole every magicka DPS into slotting destruction staff in PvP. Kind of like Major Brutality is pigeonholing every stamina DPS who wants to remain competitive into 2H.
Heck, by that same logic you could say "if you want to play a naked pugilist in PvP, you can do so" - yes, it's a possibility but is it a good option?
This is all about making options that do not involve 2H good as well.
Yes, you have to slot 2h to increase you damage, just like I have to slot resto-staff to get strong HoT and give up on tankiness of snb off-bar.
Denereation and Major Sorcery linked to skill, is locating in guild skill line, those are not restricted to any weapon or armor type to give us diversity. If it would be moved to destro-staff: 1. people would either not use it, and rebalance their builds 2. people would slot destro-staff to get this buff. Personally, as "magicka templar" if it would move there i will be given with same option as before - i will have to use destro-staff to get this buff.
P.S.: there was time that nobody remember already when Entropy didn't grant Major Sorcery buff, and templars couldn't get this buff without pots untill patch v1.6.5. And it wasn't the end of universe, people wasn't so obsessed with it and it wasn't affecting their competitiveness. To prevent situation you describe, I simply excluded it from my build and replaced with other usefull skill long-long time ago, so remove of it from Degeneration would have zero affect on me and everyone who is not using it.
@Asmael teammates are very unhappy when dk use his molten weapons in veteran Maw of Lorkhaj and negating their pots.
Restoration Staff=healing. Thus it makes sense for healing spells to be there (though you get them as Templar as well in order to fill the S&B Paladin archetype). I do just fine on my Templar without any resto staff btw.
S&B=tanking. Thus it makes sense that it is required for tanking.
2H/Bow/DW=damage. All of them, not just 2H or any combination involving 2H.
I am not thinking inside any kind of box. You are. A box where everyone who wants to deal damage has to slot 2H (unless they got a decent alternative to Rally, such as sorcerer Crit Surge).
You say it wouldn't make a difference if you didn't get Major Sorcery at all - I'm calling bs on that. It would reduce the amount of damage & healing you do by 10% That's a pretty big number & without it you are not playing a competitive build in PvP.Edited by DDuke on May 19, 2016 5:20PM1 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭
You still refusing to think outside of box, i don't understand why.
Wanna play "Bow/DW", than play it, noone taking away this possibility from you, DW even got nice buffs. Wanna get brutality buff - slot 2h. I don't need major buffs, i need strong HoT - I restricted to play with resto-staff on off-bar. That is just that simple.I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.
I don't mind to play in Pelinal Aptitude set with Mutagen+Rally on snb off-bar, without being restricted to weapons, to stack HoTs and damage buffs... Not gonna happen in MMO.
No, it's not that simple.
To deal good damage with that Bow (or good damage from melee sneak attacks) I have to slot a 2H weapon. How is this so difficult to understand?
If I go DW instead, I only lose damage when I can't give myself Major Brutality.
It's easy for you to talk as magicka templar about things that don't affect you - what would you think if Major Sorcery from Degeneration was moved into some destruction staff skill instead, would that make you happy?
No, it probably wouldn't - all it would do is pigeonhole every magicka DPS into slotting destruction staff in PvP. Kind of like Major Brutality is pigeonholing every stamina DPS who wants to remain competitive into 2H.
Heck, by that same logic you could say "if you want to play a naked pugilist in PvP, you can do so" - yes, it's a possibility but is it a good option?
This is all about making options that do not involve 2H good as well.
Yes, you have to slot 2h to increase you damage, just like I have to slot resto-staff to get strong HoT and give up on tankiness of snb off-bar.
Denereation and Major Sorcery linked to skill, is locating in guild skill line, those are not restricted to any weapon or armor type to give us diversity. If it would be moved to destro-staff: 1. people would either not use it, and rebalance their builds 2. people would slot destro-staff to get this buff. Personally, as "magicka templar" if it would move there i will be given with same option as before - i will have to use destro-staff to get this buff.
P.S.: there was time that nobody remember already when Entropy didn't grant Major Sorcery buff, and templars couldn't get this buff without pots untill patch v1.6.5. And it wasn't the end of universe, people wasn't so obsessed with it and it wasn't affecting their competitiveness. To prevent situation you describe, I simply excluded it from my build and replaced with other usefull skill long-long time ago, so remove of it from Degeneration would have zero affect on me and everyone who is not using it.
@Asmael teammates are very unhappy when dk use his molten weapons in veteran Maw of Lorkhaj and negating their pots.
Restoration Staff=healing. Thus it makes sense for healing spells to be there (though you get them as Templar as well in order to fill the S&B Paladin archetype). I do just fine on my Templar without any resto staff btw.
S&B=tanking. Thus it makes sense that it is required for tanking.
2H/Bow/DW=damage. All of them, not just 2H or any combination involving 2H.
I am not thinking inside any kind of box. You are. A box where everyone who wants to deal damage has to slot 2H (unless they got a decent alternative to Rally, such as sorcerer Crit Surge).
You say it wouldn't make a difference if you didn't get Major Sorcery at all - I'm calling bs on that. It would reduce the amount of damage & healing you do by 10% That's a pretty big number & without it you are not playing a competitive build in PvP.
For just dealing more damage, you don't HAVE to slot a 2H. Sorcs, DKs, and NBs have means of getting major brutality in class. It is also available on the dw line. Of course they don't all have the same amount of utility and ease of use as each other, but here are the benefits and trade offs of each from my point of view.
Surge - adds a heal when you crit
Igneous - activates minor brutality in earthen heart passives without having to cast another skill, gives buff to the whole group
Power extraction - does aoe damage
Hidden blade - does damage from range
Rally and morphs - adds weak hot, one morph adds burst heal depending on hot duration, other adds snare immunity
So all have their use. The question to me is if giving up rally for another type of weapon worth losing the hot and ease of use? For some, yes it is. For others, no. Is it balanced? Maybe, from certain perspectives.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »For just dealing more damage, you don't HAVE to slot a 2H. Sorcs, DKs, and NBs have means of getting major brutality in class. It is also available on the dw line. Of course they don't all have the same amount of utility and ease of use as each other, but here are the benefits and trade offs of each from my point of view.
Surge - adds a heal when you crit
The stamina morph is decent - I don't disagree. Magicka morph is not worth slotting, you're better off using Degeneration on a target than a gimped version of the stamina morph of this skill.BlackMadara wrote: »Igneous - activates minor brutality in earthen heart passives without having to cast another skill, gives buff to the whole group
No, it doesn't. You've already activated Minor Brutality by casting Igneous Shield, which you'd be crazy not to use on a stamina DK. For a DK healer/buffer group support, I can see how this skill could seem appealing - however, everyone already has those buffs from Degeneration or Rally so I doubt it's worth a skill slot.BlackMadara wrote: »Power extraction - does aoe damage
Requires you to hit a target in melee range. How are you going to use this with a Bow build? Or how are you going to buff up that stealth burst damage? It's just not a viable alternative to Rally. Sidenote: the AoE is much weaker than Steel Tornado.BlackMadara wrote: »Hidden blade - does damage from range
If you play a DW/DW build, you can slot this skill on off bar to have a ranged option - true. But it again requires you to hit a target - meaning you miss all the burst damage Rally/Forward Momentum would allow you to do. Not optimal.
On a DW/Bow build, slotting this skill is just stupid.
You already have a ranged bar with the bow, so having this on the melee bar serves no purpose whatsoever and doesn't synergize with the rest of your skills.BlackMadara wrote: »Rally and morphs - adds weak hot, one morph adds burst heal depending on hot duration, other adds snare immunity
So all have their use. The question to me is if giving up rally for another type of weapon worth losing the hot and ease of use? For some, yes it is. For others, no. Is it balanced? Maybe, from certain perspectives.
All have their very specific niche uses except Rally, which is always useful and serves to enable all NB/DK/Templar bow builds, as well as any NB/DK/Templar build that wants to do sneak attacks at all.0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
So, fact that with nerfs to swallow soul, surge, dragonblood all magicka builds, except templars, restricted to use resto-staff to get strong healing due Healing Ward/Blessing is not crucial, but fact that stamina builds just to increase "damage & healing you do by 10%" according to you, is most crucial?! Thats sound like double standarts. Magicka builds can't get strong sustain without resto-staff, but as @BlackMadara posted above, each of class have skill that grant Major Brutality without switching to 2h.
You still refusing to think outside of box, i don't understand why.
Wanna play "Bow/DW", than play it, noone taking away this possibility from you, DW even got nice buffs. Wanna get brutality buff - slot 2h. I don't need major buffs, i need strong HoT - I restricted to play with resto-staff on off-bar. That is just that simple.I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.
I don't mind to play in Pelinal Aptitude set with Mutagen+Rally on snb off-bar, without being restricted to weapons, to stack HoTs and damage buffs... Not gonna happen in MMO.
No, it's not that simple.
To deal good damage with that Bow (or good damage from melee sneak attacks) I have to slot a 2H weapon. How is this so difficult to understand?
If I go DW instead, I only lose damage when I can't give myself Major Brutality.
It's easy for you to talk as magicka templar about things that don't affect you - what would you think if Major Sorcery from Degeneration was moved into some destruction staff skill instead, would that make you happy?
No, it probably wouldn't - all it would do is pigeonhole every magicka DPS into slotting destruction staff in PvP. Kind of like Major Brutality is pigeonholing every stamina DPS who wants to remain competitive into 2H.
Heck, by that same logic you could say "if you want to play a naked pugilist in PvP, you can do so" - yes, it's a possibility but is it a good option?
This is all about making options that do not involve 2H good as well.
Yes, you have to slot 2h to increase you damage, just like I have to slot resto-staff to get strong HoT and give up on tankiness of snb off-bar.
Denereation and Major Sorcery linked to skill, is locating in guild skill line, those are not restricted to any weapon or armor type to give us diversity. If it would be moved to destro-staff: 1. people would either not use it, and rebalance their builds 2. people would slot destro-staff to get this buff. Personally, as "magicka templar" if it would move there i will be given with same option as before - i will have to use destro-staff to get this buff.
P.S.: there was time that nobody remember already when Entropy didn't grant Major Sorcery buff, and templars couldn't get this buff without pots untill patch v1.6.5. And it wasn't the end of universe, people wasn't so obsessed with it and it wasn't affecting their competitiveness. To prevent situation you describe, I simply excluded it from my build and replaced with other usefull skill long-long time ago, so remove of it from Degeneration would have zero affect on me and everyone who is not using it.
@Asmael teammates are very unhappy when dk use his molten weapons in veteran Maw of Lorkhaj and negating their pots.
Restoration Staff=healing. Thus it makes sense for healing spells to be there (though you get them as Templar as well in order to fill the S&B Paladin archetype). I do just fine on my Templar without any resto staff btw.
S&B=tanking. Thus it makes sense that it is required for tanking.
2H/Bow/DW=damage. All of them, not just 2H or any combination involving 2H.
I am not thinking inside any kind of box. You are. A box where everyone who wants to deal damage has to slot 2H (unless they got a decent alternative to Rally, such as sorcerer Crit Surge).
Probably you know my build better than me. Funny..You say it wouldn't make a difference if you didn't get Major Sorcery at all - I'm calling bs on that.
0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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So, fact that with nerfs to swallow soul, surge, dragonblood all magicka builds, except templars, restricted to use resto-staff to get strong healing due Healing Ward/Blessing is not crucial, but fact that stamina builds just to increase "damage & healing you do by 10%" according to you, is most crucial?! Thats sound like double standarts. Magicka builds can't get strong sustain without resto-staff, but as @BlackMadara posted above, each of class have skill that grant Major Brutality without switching to 2h.
You still refusing to think outside of box, i don't understand why.
Wanna play "Bow/DW", than play it, noone taking away this possibility from you, DW even got nice buffs. Wanna get brutality buff - slot 2h. I don't need major buffs, i need strong HoT - I restricted to play with resto-staff on off-bar. That is just that simple.I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.
I don't mind to play in Pelinal Aptitude set with Mutagen+Rally on snb off-bar, without being restricted to weapons, to stack HoTs and damage buffs... Not gonna happen in MMO.
No, it's not that simple.
To deal good damage with that Bow (or good damage from melee sneak attacks) I have to slot a 2H weapon. How is this so difficult to understand?
If I go DW instead, I only lose damage when I can't give myself Major Brutality.
It's easy for you to talk as magicka templar about things that don't affect you - what would you think if Major Sorcery from Degeneration was moved into some destruction staff skill instead, would that make you happy?
No, it probably wouldn't - all it would do is pigeonhole every magicka DPS into slotting destruction staff in PvP. Kind of like Major Brutality is pigeonholing every stamina DPS who wants to remain competitive into 2H.
Heck, by that same logic you could say "if you want to play a naked pugilist in PvP, you can do so" - yes, it's a possibility but is it a good option?
This is all about making options that do not involve 2H good as well.
Yes, you have to slot 2h to increase you damage, just like I have to slot resto-staff to get strong HoT and give up on tankiness of snb off-bar.
Denereation and Major Sorcery linked to skill, is locating in guild skill line, those are not restricted to any weapon or armor type to give us diversity. If it would be moved to destro-staff: 1. people would either not use it, and rebalance their builds 2. people would slot destro-staff to get this buff. Personally, as "magicka templar" if it would move there i will be given with same option as before - i will have to use destro-staff to get this buff.
P.S.: there was time that nobody remember already when Entropy didn't grant Major Sorcery buff, and templars couldn't get this buff without pots untill patch v1.6.5. And it wasn't the end of universe, people wasn't so obsessed with it and it wasn't affecting their competitiveness. To prevent situation you describe, I simply excluded it from my build and replaced with other usefull skill long-long time ago, so remove of it from Degeneration would have zero affect on me and everyone who is not using it.
@Asmael teammates are very unhappy when dk use his molten weapons in veteran Maw of Lorkhaj and negating their pots.
Restoration Staff=healing. Thus it makes sense for healing spells to be there (though you get them as Templar as well in order to fill the S&B Paladin archetype). I do just fine on my Templar without any resto staff btw.
S&B=tanking. Thus it makes sense that it is required for tanking.
2H/Bow/DW=damage. All of them, not just 2H or any combination involving 2H.
I am not thinking inside any kind of box. You are. A box where everyone who wants to deal damage has to slot 2H (unless they got a decent alternative to Rally, such as sorcerer Crit Surge).
Probably you know my build better than me. Funny..You say it wouldn't make a difference if you didn't get Major Sorcery at all - I'm calling bs on that.
And as I replied to him, those alternatives aren't ones that fit Bow/DW users or anyone wanting to deal damage from stealth.
Saying magicka builds without resto staff can't get strong sustain is ridiculous, I have zero problems on my S&B/DW heavy armor magicka templar.
And that dmg/healing increase is 10% for magicka builds - stamina builds can stack their weapon dmg much higher, meaning that Major Brutality has much bigger effect than Major Sorcery.
We are talking about 13-14% increase in dmg/healing, not 10% for stamina builds.
Also, if you don't run Major Brutality/Sorcery with your build I can already tell one thing about it: it sucks.2 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
All those buffs are situational indeed but they are still exist. Rally is most viable from them but cost of this is restriction of using 2h.
So, fact that with nerfs to swallow soul, surge, dragonblood all magicka builds, except templars, restricted to use resto-staff to get strong healing due Healing Ward/Blessing is not crucial, but fact that stamina builds just to increase "damage & healing you do by 10%" according to you, is most crucial?! Thats sound like double standarts. Magicka builds can't get strong sustain without resto-staff, but as @BlackMadara posted above, each of class have skill that grant Major Brutality without switching to 2h.
You still refusing to think outside of box, i don't understand why.
Wanna play "Bow/DW", than play it, noone taking away this possibility from you, DW even got nice buffs. Wanna get brutality buff - slot 2h. I don't need major buffs, i need strong HoT - I restricted to play with resto-staff on off-bar. That is just that simple.I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.
I don't mind to play in Pelinal Aptitude set with Mutagen+Rally on snb off-bar, without being restricted to weapons, to stack HoTs and damage buffs... Not gonna happen in MMO.
No, it's not that simple.
To deal good damage with that Bow (or good damage from melee sneak attacks) I have to slot a 2H weapon. How is this so difficult to understand?
If I go DW instead, I only lose damage when I can't give myself Major Brutality.
It's easy for you to talk as magicka templar about things that don't affect you - what would you think if Major Sorcery from Degeneration was moved into some destruction staff skill instead, would that make you happy?
No, it probably wouldn't - all it would do is pigeonhole every magicka DPS into slotting destruction staff in PvP. Kind of like Major Brutality is pigeonholing every stamina DPS who wants to remain competitive into 2H.
Heck, by that same logic you could say "if you want to play a naked pugilist in PvP, you can do so" - yes, it's a possibility but is it a good option?
This is all about making options that do not involve 2H good as well.
Yes, you have to slot 2h to increase you damage, just like I have to slot resto-staff to get strong HoT and give up on tankiness of snb off-bar.
Denereation and Major Sorcery linked to skill, is locating in guild skill line, those are not restricted to any weapon or armor type to give us diversity. If it would be moved to destro-staff: 1. people would either not use it, and rebalance their builds 2. people would slot destro-staff to get this buff. Personally, as "magicka templar" if it would move there i will be given with same option as before - i will have to use destro-staff to get this buff.
P.S.: there was time that nobody remember already when Entropy didn't grant Major Sorcery buff, and templars couldn't get this buff without pots untill patch v1.6.5. And it wasn't the end of universe, people wasn't so obsessed with it and it wasn't affecting their competitiveness. To prevent situation you describe, I simply excluded it from my build and replaced with other usefull skill long-long time ago, so remove of it from Degeneration would have zero affect on me and everyone who is not using it.
@Asmael teammates are very unhappy when dk use his molten weapons in veteran Maw of Lorkhaj and negating their pots.
Restoration Staff=healing. Thus it makes sense for healing spells to be there (though you get them as Templar as well in order to fill the S&B Paladin archetype). I do just fine on my Templar without any resto staff btw.
S&B=tanking. Thus it makes sense that it is required for tanking.
2H/Bow/DW=damage. All of them, not just 2H or any combination involving 2H.
I am not thinking inside any kind of box. You are. A box where everyone who wants to deal damage has to slot 2H (unless they got a decent alternative to Rally, such as sorcerer Crit Surge).
Probably you know my build better than me. Funny..You say it wouldn't make a difference if you didn't get Major Sorcery at all - I'm calling bs on that.
And as I replied to him, those alternatives aren't ones that fit Bow/DW users or anyone wanting to deal damage from stealth.
Saying magicka builds without resto staff can't get strong sustain is ridiculous, I have zero problems on my S&B/DW heavy armor magicka templar.
And that dmg/healing increase is 10% for magicka builds - stamina builds can stack their weapon dmg much higher, meaning that Major Brutality has much bigger effect than Major Sorcery.
We are talking about 13-14% increase in dmg/healing, not 10% for stamina builds.
Also, if you don't run Major Brutality/Sorcery with your build I can already tell one thing about it: it sucks.
As I said - all magicka classes, except templars, whos main unnerfed defensive skill is healing. None of rest classes can get enough survivability without resto-staff.
As you said - Major Brutality has much bigger effect than Major Sorcery. So you answered by yourself why major sorcery not restricted to any weapon skill line.
It suck when build is uncomplete, but when it is ready - it is feel good enough. And solid build is not thing that could be achieved in like 2 days.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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All those buffs are situational indeed but they are still exist. Rally is most viable from them but cost of this is restriction of using 2h.
So, fact that with nerfs to swallow soul, surge, dragonblood all magicka builds, except templars, restricted to use resto-staff to get strong healing due Healing Ward/Blessing is not crucial, but fact that stamina builds just to increase "damage & healing you do by 10%" according to you, is most crucial?! Thats sound like double standarts. Magicka builds can't get strong sustain without resto-staff, but as @BlackMadara posted above, each of class have skill that grant Major Brutality without switching to 2h.
You still refusing to think outside of box, i don't understand why.
Wanna play "Bow/DW", than play it, noone taking away this possibility from you, DW even got nice buffs. Wanna get brutality buff - slot 2h. I don't need major buffs, i need strong HoT - I restricted to play with resto-staff on off-bar. That is just that simple.I think it pretty balanced right now: some classes has offensive buff, others - defensive, dks have both but can't have it for 100% uptime. Like, templar don't have major brutality/major sorcery but have defensive - major mending. Adding offensive buff to templars will make it unbalanced, other classes will need major mending too as counterpart, but than all classes will be like clones.
If the buffs were class restricted I'd actually agree with you.
However, they are not - as long as you can simply slot 2H for Major Brutality (that simultaneously can act as a strong burst heal or root/snare immunity), people will just do that.
This pigeonholes stamina builds into using a 2H weapon.
It is slightly better for magicka builds, as you're not forced to use any specific weapon type with Degeneration being there in Mages Guild skill line.
And thats why not-class skills are need for. If, for example, all classes would have major sorcery buff - noone ever would use Entropy. If stamina builds wanna buff their damage - they must use 2h, but they could not use major brutality buff and play without 2h, same as if i want to play with Mutagen or Healing Ward i forced to use resto-staff on 2nd bar. Such restriction are needed to avoid perfection.
What perfection?
Is there any reason not to slot 2H if I want to deal damage in PvP? Pretty much every single stamina build out there is running 2H in main or off bar, and it's sickening.
If I want to play Bow/DW, why should I not be allowed to - without becoming an inferior build in PvP?
Comparing Rally to Mutagen or Healing Ward is disingenuous at best - neither of those skills gives you Major Sorcery.
And people would still use Entropy by the way, it adds a decent DoT & serves to activate Major Empower. I much rather use it on my ranged Magicka Nightblade than Sap Essence.
I don't mind to play in Pelinal Aptitude set with Mutagen+Rally on snb off-bar, without being restricted to weapons, to stack HoTs and damage buffs... Not gonna happen in MMO.
No, it's not that simple.
To deal good damage with that Bow (or good damage from melee sneak attacks) I have to slot a 2H weapon. How is this so difficult to understand?
If I go DW instead, I only lose damage when I can't give myself Major Brutality.
It's easy for you to talk as magicka templar about things that don't affect you - what would you think if Major Sorcery from Degeneration was moved into some destruction staff skill instead, would that make you happy?
No, it probably wouldn't - all it would do is pigeonhole every magicka DPS into slotting destruction staff in PvP. Kind of like Major Brutality is pigeonholing every stamina DPS who wants to remain competitive into 2H.
Heck, by that same logic you could say "if you want to play a naked pugilist in PvP, you can do so" - yes, it's a possibility but is it a good option?
This is all about making options that do not involve 2H good as well.
Yes, you have to slot 2h to increase you damage, just like I have to slot resto-staff to get strong HoT and give up on tankiness of snb off-bar.
Denereation and Major Sorcery linked to skill, is locating in guild skill line, those are not restricted to any weapon or armor type to give us diversity. If it would be moved to destro-staff: 1. people would either not use it, and rebalance their builds 2. people would slot destro-staff to get this buff. Personally, as "magicka templar" if it would move there i will be given with same option as before - i will have to use destro-staff to get this buff.
P.S.: there was time that nobody remember already when Entropy didn't grant Major Sorcery buff, and templars couldn't get this buff without pots untill patch v1.6.5. And it wasn't the end of universe, people wasn't so obsessed with it and it wasn't affecting their competitiveness. To prevent situation you describe, I simply excluded it from my build and replaced with other usefull skill long-long time ago, so remove of it from Degeneration would have zero affect on me and everyone who is not using it.
@Asmael teammates are very unhappy when dk use his molten weapons in veteran Maw of Lorkhaj and negating their pots.
Restoration Staff=healing. Thus it makes sense for healing spells to be there (though you get them as Templar as well in order to fill the S&B Paladin archetype). I do just fine on my Templar without any resto staff btw.
S&B=tanking. Thus it makes sense that it is required for tanking.
2H/Bow/DW=damage. All of them, not just 2H or any combination involving 2H.
I am not thinking inside any kind of box. You are. A box where everyone who wants to deal damage has to slot 2H (unless they got a decent alternative to Rally, such as sorcerer Crit Surge).
Probably you know my build better than me. Funny..You say it wouldn't make a difference if you didn't get Major Sorcery at all - I'm calling bs on that.
And as I replied to him, those alternatives aren't ones that fit Bow/DW users or anyone wanting to deal damage from stealth.
Saying magicka builds without resto staff can't get strong sustain is ridiculous, I have zero problems on my S&B/DW heavy armor magicka templar.
And that dmg/healing increase is 10% for magicka builds - stamina builds can stack their weapon dmg much higher, meaning that Major Brutality has much bigger effect than Major Sorcery.
We are talking about 13-14% increase in dmg/healing, not 10% for stamina builds.
Also, if you don't run Major Brutality/Sorcery with your build I can already tell one thing about it: it sucks.
As I said - all magicka classes, except templars, whos main unnerfed defensive skill is healing. None of rest classes can get enough survivability without resto-staff.
As you said - Major Brutality has much bigger effect than Major Sorcery. So you answered by yourself why major sorcery not restricted to any weapon skill line.
It suck when build is uncomplete, but when it is ready - it is feel good enough. And solid build is not thing that could be achieved in like 2 days.
You make no sense.
Why do you consider using 2H to be a "cost" of any kind? 2H is extremely powerful even without Major Brutality on Rally. Wrecking Blow is part of the biggest burst damage combo next patch for stamina builds.
It's in a very good spot at the moment when it comes to PvP.
What aren't in a good spot are the other weapon skill lines. Why? Because they have to rely on 2H to be viable for classes/builds without Major Brutality buff that is worth slotting.
And yes, an incomplete build sucks we can agree on that.
You know what sucks even more? The fact that to make it "complete" you have to slot a 2H weapon & use Rally.
This kills any hope of ever seeing real build diversity in stamina builds. Different weapon combinations & playstyles... I honestly don't understand why you think that is a good thing, and I don't really care - this conversation is going in circles & I'm not interested in circles. Have a good day/night.Edited by DDuke on May 19, 2016 9:20PM1 -
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✭Dreugh King Slayer (i think this one) have major brutality as 5th piece bonus. Which is nice for ppl who dont use 2h. It's heavy armor tho.. But i think that 2h is still necessary for heal.Edited by Soris on May 19, 2016 9:26PMWelkynd [Templar/AD/EU]0 -
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✭✭✭✭You know why - to make skill lines unhomoginized according to Wrobel. Snb can't be buffed simply coz with animation cancelling it outdamaging 2h, have skills with nice buffs and debuffs, duals got nice buffs. And 2h line got "fix" of its main iconic ability. What unique 2h line have - only WB, that will be "fixed" and won't be so strong anymore and Rally that apply strong HoT and Major Berserk buff, so at least couple skills should be unique and strong. Something that will become weaker simply can't become more effective next patch.0