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Shields & Sorcerers - what to do about both...
byrom101b16_ESO
✭✭✭✭✭
@ ZOS...
Here is a list of suggested SHIELD and SORCERER changes which in my opinion would better serve the Shield Stacking issue and make a better stab at improving the Sorcerer in a way that balances the demands of PvP/PvE.
SHIELDS
SORCERER
ACTIVE SKILLS
Crystal Blast (costs stamina) – 35% chance when using other stamina abilities that this ability becomes instant cast, using 50% less stamina and dealing 20% more damage. Damage is physical.
Note – Crystal should be green to differentiate it from its magicka counterpart.
Encase – pbaoe – Immobilise for 5 seconds – 5 meter radius; costs +25% of the normal stamina cost to break out of
Restraining Prison (costs stamina) – adds a 5 second snare after immobilise ends.
Note – Crystals should be green as above.
Shattering Prison – Explodes for aoe damage after effect ends.
Rune Prison – Disorientates target for 10 seconds. Applies 12 second Minor Mangle if target breaks out.
Rune Cage – DoTs do not break disorientate.
Defensive Rune (costs stamina) – First person to attack you is put in a Rune Prison.
Dark Exchange (zero cost) – For the next 20 seconds, caster suffers Minor Defile and gains Minor Intellect and Minor Endurance
Dark Magic – Whilst active, caster gains 5% spell cost reduction
Dark Vigor – Whilst active, user doesn’t suffer Minor Defile and gains 3% stamina cost reduction
Daedric Mines – summons 3 mines for 30 seconds – takes 2 seconds to arm. Immobilises targets for 2 seconds. Damage increased by 20% on current form
Daedric Device (costs stamina) – Summons 1 mine in front of you, with +50% damage from current based off stamina. The Device taunts target for 20 seconds (green mine)
Daedric Tomb – Summons 3 mines instantly at the target location with +10% damage from current
Unstable Familiar - +20% damage from current; +25% health
Unstable Clanfear – Pet does +15% damage (and also gains 10% of +spell damage); +25% health; can charge and tail swipe. Has +50% health (from current) and heals you for 10% of damage done.
Volatile Familiar – Pet does +15% damage (and also gains 5% of +spell damage); +25% health. Activating its special ability does 300% the damage of a single pulse currently does and immediately stuns enemies for 3 seconds. Note that this does not pulse after the first explosion damage.
Twilight – as per current but with +spell damage gain and +50% health.
Daedric Curse – as per current
Daedric Prey – Damage of all pets on the target scales off stamina and +weapon damage and magicka and +spell damage combined.
Velocitous Curse – In addition to the current effect – this morph retains the DoT element of Daedric Curse for the reduced duration.
Conjured Ward – damage shield for 12 seconds
Empowered Ward – same as current, but 12 seconds
Hardened Ward – same as current, but 12 seconds
Note – see my suggestions on shields in general.
Summon Atronach – initial damage +10% from current, ranged damage +20%
Greater Storm Atronach – also Snares targets within the aoe
Charged Atronach – also applies Concussion for 6 seconds to all aoe targets
Mages Fury - +15% damage from current
Mages Fury – enjoys +25% critical damage bonus
Mageblades Wrath (costs stamina) – short range, scales from stamina and returns stamina when kills target
Lightning Form – same as current
Boundless Storm – same as current
Blade Storm – stamina version of Boundless Storm
Bolt of Escape – stuns for 3 seconds
Ball Lightning – same as current
Streak – stuns for 3 seconds
PASSIVES
Blood Magic – Heals for 2% of damage done (see Dark Bolt below)
Daedric Protection – Increases Armour Rating and Spell Resistance by 5%
Expert Summoner – All pets have +20% health
Battle Mage (replaces Expert Mage) – Increases Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer Ability slotted. Increases these by 1% for each Weapon Ability slotted.
ATERNATE STUFF
Summon Toggles – have 1 summons toggle called ‘Summoner’ which summons those pets dragged and dropped into a sub-menu when cast – sub menu allows for allocating bespoke keys to each summon for re-summons and ability use.
Alternatively, have this set up but when a pet ‘dies’ it is just stunned for 4 seconds and revives afterwards (draining half the normal summon spell resource).
Dark Bolt – spammable energy dart-like ranged attack – does magicka damage and scales at the same level as Force Shock for cost and damage. This is a Dark Magic skill.
Baleful Bolt – applies 3 second Minor Breach to the target on a critical
Enervating Bolt – Interrupts spells; applies Minor Maim for 12 seconds on a successful interrupt
Note both Baleful and Enervating Bolts both have the same damage and cost as Force Pulse (Destro Skill).
I've undoubtedly not thought of a few things, and some suggestions will need modification. If you want to comment critically - please do so in a constructive way and take everything here as a whole - don't switch your brain off and highlight one thing as if the rest doesn't exist...
... thanks.
Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on May 9, 2016 1:53PM Here is a list of suggested SHIELD and SORCERER changes which in my opinion would better serve the Shield Stacking issue and make a better stab at improving the Sorcerer in a way that balances the demands of PvP/PvE.
SHIELDS
- A shield applied when the target has no current shield has a duration of 12 seconds
- A second type of shield applied when the target already has a shield has a duration of 6 seconds
- A third type of shield applied when the target already has two shields does not apply
- Recasting the same shield on yourself within 3 seconds costs +25% resource
- All shields on a target have duration cut by 2 seconds if they are hit by a critical attack (but that is all the critical does). DoT criticals do not reduce shield duration.
SORCERER
ACTIVE SKILLS
Crystal Blast (costs stamina) – 35% chance when using other stamina abilities that this ability becomes instant cast, using 50% less stamina and dealing 20% more damage. Damage is physical.
Note – Crystal should be green to differentiate it from its magicka counterpart.
Encase – pbaoe – Immobilise for 5 seconds – 5 meter radius; costs +25% of the normal stamina cost to break out of
Restraining Prison (costs stamina) – adds a 5 second snare after immobilise ends.
Note – Crystals should be green as above.
Shattering Prison – Explodes for aoe damage after effect ends.
Rune Prison – Disorientates target for 10 seconds. Applies 12 second Minor Mangle if target breaks out.
Rune Cage – DoTs do not break disorientate.
Defensive Rune (costs stamina) – First person to attack you is put in a Rune Prison.
Dark Exchange (zero cost) – For the next 20 seconds, caster suffers Minor Defile and gains Minor Intellect and Minor Endurance
Dark Magic – Whilst active, caster gains 5% spell cost reduction
Dark Vigor – Whilst active, user doesn’t suffer Minor Defile and gains 3% stamina cost reduction
Daedric Mines – summons 3 mines for 30 seconds – takes 2 seconds to arm. Immobilises targets for 2 seconds. Damage increased by 20% on current form
Daedric Device (costs stamina) – Summons 1 mine in front of you, with +50% damage from current based off stamina. The Device taunts target for 20 seconds (green mine)
Daedric Tomb – Summons 3 mines instantly at the target location with +10% damage from current
Unstable Familiar - +20% damage from current; +25% health
Unstable Clanfear – Pet does +15% damage (and also gains 10% of +spell damage); +25% health; can charge and tail swipe. Has +50% health (from current) and heals you for 10% of damage done.
Volatile Familiar – Pet does +15% damage (and also gains 5% of +spell damage); +25% health. Activating its special ability does 300% the damage of a single pulse currently does and immediately stuns enemies for 3 seconds. Note that this does not pulse after the first explosion damage.
Twilight – as per current but with +spell damage gain and +50% health.
Daedric Curse – as per current
Daedric Prey – Damage of all pets on the target scales off stamina and +weapon damage and magicka and +spell damage combined.
Velocitous Curse – In addition to the current effect – this morph retains the DoT element of Daedric Curse for the reduced duration.
Conjured Ward – damage shield for 12 seconds
Empowered Ward – same as current, but 12 seconds
Hardened Ward – same as current, but 12 seconds
Note – see my suggestions on shields in general.
Summon Atronach – initial damage +10% from current, ranged damage +20%
Greater Storm Atronach – also Snares targets within the aoe
Charged Atronach – also applies Concussion for 6 seconds to all aoe targets
Mages Fury - +15% damage from current
Mages Fury – enjoys +25% critical damage bonus
Mageblades Wrath (costs stamina) – short range, scales from stamina and returns stamina when kills target
Lightning Form – same as current
Boundless Storm – same as current
Blade Storm – stamina version of Boundless Storm
Bolt of Escape – stuns for 3 seconds
Ball Lightning – same as current
Streak – stuns for 3 seconds
PASSIVES
Blood Magic – Heals for 2% of damage done (see Dark Bolt below)
Daedric Protection – Increases Armour Rating and Spell Resistance by 5%
Expert Summoner – All pets have +20% health
Battle Mage (replaces Expert Mage) – Increases Spell Damage and Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer Ability slotted. Increases these by 1% for each Weapon Ability slotted.
ATERNATE STUFF
Summon Toggles – have 1 summons toggle called ‘Summoner’ which summons those pets dragged and dropped into a sub-menu when cast – sub menu allows for allocating bespoke keys to each summon for re-summons and ability use.
Alternatively, have this set up but when a pet ‘dies’ it is just stunned for 4 seconds and revives afterwards (draining half the normal summon spell resource).
Dark Bolt – spammable energy dart-like ranged attack – does magicka damage and scales at the same level as Force Shock for cost and damage. This is a Dark Magic skill.
Baleful Bolt – applies 3 second Minor Breach to the target on a critical
Enervating Bolt – Interrupts spells; applies Minor Maim for 12 seconds on a successful interrupt
Note both Baleful and Enervating Bolts both have the same damage and cost as Force Pulse (Destro Skill).
I've undoubtedly not thought of a few things, and some suggestions will need modification. If you want to comment critically - please do so in a constructive way and take everything here as a whole - don't switch your brain off and highlight one thing as if the rest doesn't exist...
... thanks.
2
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lolo_01b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't like your shield suggestions as it would cause a lot of problems with all the different shields we have:
- You use harness first, then a friend pops magma shell and some random dk next to you uses his igneous shield, removing your shield from magma shell. Imagine all that rage in zone chat that would be caused in similar situations with igneous.
- 25% cost increase for recasting blazing shield every 3 sec? Then you can also remove this skill from the game.
- Get a single 100% crit stamblade with caltrops and arrow barage and noone will have a shield for more than 2 sec. Might be fun in the beginning, but I doubt it will be good in terms of balancing.
In general I'm opposed to nerfing shields. In my opinion all those nerfs to defensive skills are exactly the opposite of what zos should do. It's not like Cyrodiil is full of unkillable players. Most people die quite fast, so why not buff defensive skills and reconsider some of the nerfs we had in the past.
For your other suggestions I can't say much. Some seem to be nice like crystal blast, for others I like the atro change I can't say much since I don't remember the last time I used it, so I don't know if 10% more damage would make it worthy replacing Overload / Meteor.1 -
Birdovic✭✭✭✭✭Lots and lots of interesting Ideas.
But please consider renaming The Thread, it Sounds like this Is about sorc shields only.Attempt and Thoughts to Overhaul Scaling, Attribute System and Enchantments
Improving the Sorcerer class: Ideas
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of Combat to feel awesome"0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »I don't like your shield suggestions as it would cause a lot of problems with all the different shields we have:
- You use harness first, then a friend pops magma shell and some random dk next to you uses his igneous shield, removing your shield from magma shell. Imagine all that rage in zone chat that would be caused in similar situations with igneous.
- 25% cost increase for recasting blazing shield every 3 sec? Then you can also remove this skill from the game.
- Get a single 100% crit stamblade with caltrops and arrow barage and noone will have a shield for more than 2 sec. Might be fun in the beginning, but I doubt it will be good in terms of balancing.
In general I'm opposed to nerfing shields. In my opinion all those nerfs to defensive skills are exactly the opposite of what zos should do. It's not like Cyrodiil is full of unkillable players. Most people die quite fast, so why not buff defensive skills and reconsider some of the nerfs we had in the past.
For your other suggestions I can't say much. Some seem to be nice like crystal blast, for others I like the atro change I can't say much since I don't remember the last time I used it, so I don't know if 10% more damage would make it worthy replacing Overload / Meteor.
Thanks for the constructive feedback.
I'll change the relevant parts accordingly.
On the issue of specific shield durations - with all shields having 12 second or 6 second durations, recasting as part of the 'design' of the shield should no longer be an issue.Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on May 9, 2016 1:55PM0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Lots and lots of interesting Ideas.
But please consider renaming The Thread, it Sounds like this Is about sorc shields only.
Done - thanks, you were right
.
0 -
Birdovic✭✭✭✭✭I will go trough the other Suggestions later. Now, just for The shields:SHIELDS
A ) A shield applied when the target has no current shield has a duration of 12 seconds
B ) A second type of shield applied when the target already has a shield has a duration of 6 seconds
C ) A third type of shield applied when the target already has two shields replaces the second shield
D ) Recasting the same shield on yourself within 3 seconds costs +25% resource
E ) All shields on a target have duration cut by 2 seconds if they are hit by a critical attack (but that is all the critical does).
I assume this is only about the Sorcerer's class Shield(because everyone having 12sec shields shouldnt be a thing), so:
- A+B+C: Should work out.
But there is still something, you didnt keep in mind:
What happens when Allies cast a shield, while you have 2 up?
Lets say you got hardened ward + Harness Magicka active and Ally uses Healing Ward OR Barrier Ult. Will your Harness Magicka be gone? Also, since this becomes the 2nd Shield, will Healing Ward and Barrier suddenly become longer(healing ward 4 sec to 6) or shorter (Barrier from 20 sec to 6?). The result is annoying allies you want to stay away from, which shouldnt happen at all.
Now for A+B+C+D+E: Absolutely No, and I tell you why.
Players that rely too much on Shields (Sorcerers of course) will have to recast Shields way too fast when, lets say playing in Cyrodiil. It allows way too much pressure.
Example: Enemy ganks you, you recast Shield because its almost gone just from the Surprise attack. You will now recast the Shield and increase the cost by 25% for a shield, which is gone very fast again, forcing you to shield again (another 25% cost increase). Now, even if you didnt recast it that much, the surprise attack was a sure crit hit, reducing your short duration shield by 2 seconds and pushing you back to the increased cost for recasting.
So, to summarize:
During a Fight, you will find yourself recasting your shield alot, even in less than 3 seconds, draining your magicka too fast. This happens even faster because of 2sec less duration from the many crit hits you will receive.
The Enemy can easily force you into shieldspamming with much damage, effectively making you drain all your magicka, and taking away the possibility to fight back.
So, IF we got to chose, I'd go for A+B+C and excluding Ally Shields from this mechanic.Edited by Birdovic on May 9, 2016 3:37PMAttempt and Thoughts to Overhaul Scaling, Attribute System and Enchantments
Improving the Sorcerer class: Ideas
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of Combat to feel awesome"1 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »I don't like your shield suggestions as it would cause a lot of problems with all the different shields we have:
- You use harness first, then a friend pops magma shell and some random dk next to you uses his igneous shield, removing your shield from magma shell. Imagine all that rage in zone chat that would be caused in similar situations with igneous.
- 25% cost increase for recasting blazing shield every 3 sec? Then you can also remove this skill from the game.
- Get a single 100% crit stamblade with caltrops and arrow barage and noone will have a shield for more than 2 sec. Might be fun in the beginning, but I doubt it will be good in terms of balancing.
In general I'm opposed to nerfing shields. In my opinion all those nerfs to defensive skills are exactly the opposite of what zos should do. It's not like Cyrodiil is full of unkillable players. Most people die quite fast, so why not buff defensive skills and reconsider some of the nerfs we had in the past.
For your other suggestions I can't say much. Some seem to be nice like crystal blast, for others I like the atro change I can't say much since I don't remember the last time I used it, so I don't know if 10% more damage would make it worthy replacing Overload / Meteor.
Quite the contrary. Anyone who knows what they're doing is incredibly difficult to kill without overwhelming numbers right now. Any further buffs to shields or defense or healing will be excessive.Edited by KenaPKK on May 10, 2016 8:44AMKena
Former Class Rep
Former Legend GM
Beta player0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I like everything but the shield suggestion, I don't see any reason to change it from live. At all.
Just don't allow harness Magicka to stack on top of hardened ward. That's it. Fixed. NONE of the other shields stacking are an issue, they're tiny or insignificant. Why do we have to wreck the mechanics for ONE ability.
Harness Magicka: gains physical protection, but skill does not stack with hardened ward. They dispel one another.
Hardened Ward: stays the same on live, but does not stack with harness magicka. The shields will replace one another on cast rather than stack.
Done.0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Thanks for your feedback andypappb16_ESO, KenaPKK and Minalan.
andy - you will see that I have changed point 3 to reflect the point lolo made - so please refer to the new list.
On the issue of criticals, I do think they should have some kind of effect - just not damage, or you would be spamming shields even more in PvP. There are also the facts that people don't usually run crit. builds in PvP, and that even with the duration reductions, there would be an even chance the shield would go down from straight damage within a shorter timeframe anyway.
I do feel the time reduction mechanic - especially how it can remove second shields faster (due to the shorter duration) means that shield stacking, whilst still possible and valuable, would not be the somewhat OP issue it is now.
Thanks for your words of support for the Sorcerer changes I suggest. The class really does need rescuing from the many incremental nerfs it has suffered. It's a shame the issue of shield stacking is so integral to Sorcerer survival at the moment, and cannot be dealt with separately.
I for one would prefer a game without shields at all - and with other tools in the class survival toolkit instead - but - I am not a designer.
Minalan - looking once again at your post - I was thinking perhaps to introduce some skill to shield play - maybe have them only prevent 80% of damage unless you are blocking with the cost of blocking reduced by 80% while the shield remains?
Something to think about...Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on May 10, 2016 7:59AM0 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Overall I think these suggestions are too complicated. Just reduce the total damage that Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka can block, or increase the costs of the skills significantly, or reduce players' sustain in general.
The high sustain enabling shield spam when under pressure is the real issue here.Kena
Former Class Rep
Former Legend GM
Beta player0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Overall I think these suggestions are too complicated. Just reduce the total damage that Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka can block, or increase the costs of the skills significantly, or reduce players' sustain in general.
The high sustain enabling shield spam when under pressure is the real issue here.
I run single shield and can of course spam it - and believe me that isn't the issue - it's shield stacking.
With a single shield someone with half a brain and a cc button which they know when to land (not that hard to master) will strip you down and have you dead soon enough if they have the burst - NB's especially.
The idea that you cannot blast down a single shield quickly is utterly wrong - you can. It's multiple shields that are the issue.
Besides - you will see from my list I recommend a +25% cost to shields recast within 3 seconds - so I have in fact dealt with your concern there.
If you do actually think single shields are a problem - wait for the PTS changes to go live in the game - when those classes with good heals, efficient blocks and dodges get hold of the LA shield on top of all of that...
... you'll be wishing for the 'old days'.Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on May 10, 2016 9:06AM0
