THE PUG CHECKLIST (READ THIS BEFORE USING THE VET DUNGEON FINDER).

KingYogi415

Great guide.

low level players should start researching gear immediately to start being able to craft their own sets.

aldriq

I agree with some posters that the term PUG is now a bit loaded and a bit stale... maybe we should come up with a sexier word for it, something that conveys the mystery and excitement of the unknown. How about randovous?

Seriously, though, the guide is useful... but for non-vet dungeons when playing on low/mid levels, do people know or feel if there a minimum set of expectations when going to these? (I imagine far less demanding than the vet ones)

NewBlacksmurf

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Nice article.

Just an inevitable comment on the tank stamina thing... I use a glyph of absorb stamina on my main weapon and some well-placed champion points to boost my stamina recovery with heavy attacks. I get that tanks are supposed to be blocking "most of the time", but that doesn't mean you have to completely dependent on other peoples skill sets. And there's usually plenty of time in between blocking to leech some stamina back, buff, debuff etc.

But yes... good article for the intended audience, and not critical know-it-alls like me.

Thank you! and of course, I'm too much of a wimp to risk heavy attacks whilst tanking, but thanks to swallow soul being so cheap and siphoning attacks I just spam that out of block to self heal and get back stam. But I'm defs more a dps guy. Tanking is not my forte but I'd like to think I know the role. haha Sort of.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Please consider this is your personal preference and now that its on the forums...but it differs from the ZOS articles and roles.

I would consider this more of an ideal situation based on a particular experience you want so therefore, I'd say you should never use the PUG an only use manual groups. Then queue when full

Another monstrously opposed reply from Smurf, good to know you haven't changed, and that you aren't on EU haha.

As I'm glad ur on PC and EU.

Another overtly incorrect deduction from Smurf. Feel free to use the "full site" version on your phone to read player signatures. I find your signature with your ideas on a new levelling and gear system particularly amusing and further proof of your short sightedness when it comes to this game's direction a little saddening, but the poll already underlined that. It's always a blast with you smurf. Keep on, keeping on!

I see your sig say Xbox EU but my comment was as off base as your OP.
See there are concepts and expectations that go with roles and MMORPG games but the tone of your post comes off as play this way or gtfo.

To me that's crazy and it also doesn't align with the companies game guide so while this is your perspective and some others agree....I've found that taking and holding this perspective isn't good for the social interactions or enjoying gameplay long term as the circle that holds this mindset is very small in comparison to the vast amount of players who successfully run dungeons in PUGs each night.
Mdiff strokes for diff folks but realize I have changed but perhaps you have not which is why you have this perspective or opinion about me.

Some are already finding my guide helpful. Some find it offensive. As stated in the thread. It's not a build guide, it's a role guide. If your tank can't taunt, you are not a tank. If your healer does nothing but heal, you aren't an effective healer. If your dps spams wrecking blow till kingdom come without any dots or aoes, you are not an effective dps. These are FACTS. Yes? Something you rarely dip your toes in.

You live in this world where you believe you're fighting for employee of the month. But you aren't an employee. You're a fan, with a passion that may match mine for the game, but it's twisted and deluded. And that's a shame. We both read each other's statements poorly but in this instance I stick by the fact that these are really decent guidelines. I'm in sometimes eight pugs a day. I've seen a lot and this guide could help many.

This is not an attack on the pug community, I'm endeavoring to better it. You won't see that though... If I say the sky is blue, you'll say it's red. That's you. You haven't changed.

When you post something using the word "checklist" and instruct ppl to read it before using the vet dungeon tool, you are insulting people, offending people and there are always those who share your points of view as well.

Some things are obvious but this post seeks to encourage the forum community to adhere to a concept that isn't the design intent of the game. Furthermore from hands on you and I know that this "checklist" is completely opinionated.

Tanks- while they should shield the group, stun, block and pull, they don't "have to taunt".
Dps- shouldn't do a lot of aoe unless the group builds allow CC, heals and the other dos and tank to keep order
Healer - should heal but is welcomed to dos while healing as I can throw a heal on me and pop a potion too..

That's a lot of power in one little word. "Checklist". I wonder if I gave a random in the street a "checklist" asking them to give me a pedicure and clean my apartment if they'd do it?

Anyway. Good to know a tank shouldn't taunt. That a dps should focus on attacking one enemy out of the 10 they are attacking and that a healer should focus on themselves. Sounds like an awesome team!

It should be read as tanks shouldnt be required to taunt if they are otherwise effective.
You're making illogical conclusions from reading comments but again....whatever works for you, I just know that there are other ways to have success in those roles without using an old traditional trinity concept.

Well, if you're so logical, please do share some ideas how keeping aggro should be implemented without taunts.
Without nerfing everything to the ground or making it automatical of course.

4 ppl in the group right...
Regardless of class or role, we all have stuns, CC. Since many in this topic are using a traditional MMORPG roles analogy....in all of those prior games, you pull from ranged.
Group sits back while someone goes to pull. CC pull, and when the adds come, CC those so the one or two that remain, the group assists the tank. So the tank doesn't have a taunt, then the tank starts the CC pull. Weapon swap and pull, then swap back or CC 1&2 then swap back. The other dps would CC and for those large pulls, the healer too.

Since the tank pulled and the dps only CC one, the group assists the tank. Kill one or two in-CC'ed and rinse and repeat.
Boss fights, you can't CC the boss so you use this method for the adds to pull the boss.

If your dps remove their AOE's and use direct dmg and CC, this isn't a problem but it needs to be communicated.
That's one example. That's not the only method.

I'm sure we've all had the Sorc tank with no taunt that runs shields, AOE's and liquid lightning. The rest of the group still should direct dmg one and cycle until all are dead.

This game offers much more viable options than requiring the tank to taunt.
Also...the original design until changed only allowed the tank to taunt every 12 secs or do often with diminishing returns or if done too often, it cause the taunt to force Aggro on a DPS or healer.

DK's, Templars, NB's and Sorcs all can do a ton of AOe as a tank depending upon their choices.
I'm not saying every build can work but I am saying that taunts are not 100% required to be a tank.
I'm not saying I prefer a tank to taunt or not, but I'm saying I look to work with players rather than pre-determine a group based on something trivial as "taunts" from the tank.

Wollust wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Nice article.

Just an inevitable comment on the tank stamina thing... I use a glyph of absorb stamina on my main weapon and some well-placed champion points to boost my stamina recovery with heavy attacks. I get that tanks are supposed to be blocking "most of the time", but that doesn't mean you have to completely dependent on other peoples skill sets. And there's usually plenty of time in between blocking to leech some stamina back, buff, debuff etc.

But yes... good article for the intended audience, and not critical know-it-alls like me.

Thank you! and of course, I'm too much of a wimp to risk heavy attacks whilst tanking, but thanks to swallow soul being so cheap and siphoning attacks I just spam that out of block to self heal and get back stam. But I'm defs more a dps guy. Tanking is not my forte but I'd like to think I know the role. haha Sort of.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Please consider this is your personal preference and now that its on the forums...but it differs from the ZOS articles and roles.

I would consider this more of an ideal situation based on a particular experience you want so therefore, I'd say you should never use the PUG an only use manual groups. Then queue when full

Another monstrously opposed reply from Smurf, good to know you haven't changed, and that you aren't on EU haha.

As I'm glad ur on PC and EU.

Another overtly incorrect deduction from Smurf. Feel free to use the "full site" version on your phone to read player signatures. I find your signature with your ideas on a new levelling and gear system particularly amusing and further proof of your short sightedness when it comes to this game's direction a little saddening, but the poll already underlined that. It's always a blast with you smurf. Keep on, keeping on!

I see your sig say Xbox EU but my comment was as off base as your OP.
See there are concepts and expectations that go with roles and MMORPG games but the tone of your post comes off as play this way or gtfo.

To me that's crazy and it also doesn't align with the companies game guide so while this is your perspective and some others agree....I've found that taking and holding this perspective isn't good for the social interactions or enjoying gameplay long term as the circle that holds this mindset is very small in comparison to the vast amount of players who successfully run dungeons in PUGs each night.
Mdiff strokes for diff folks but realize I have changed but perhaps you have not which is why you have this perspective or opinion about me.

Some are already finding my guide helpful. Some find it offensive. As stated in the thread. It's not a build guide, it's a role guide. If your tank can't taunt, you are not a tank. If your healer does nothing but heal, you aren't an effective healer. If your dps spams wrecking blow till kingdom come without any dots or aoes, you are not an effective dps. These are FACTS. Yes? Something you rarely dip your toes in.

You live in this world where you believe you're fighting for employee of the month. But you aren't an employee. You're a fan, with a passion that may match mine for the game, but it's twisted and deluded. And that's a shame. We both read each other's statements poorly but in this instance I stick by the fact that these are really decent guidelines. I'm in sometimes eight pugs a day. I've seen a lot and this guide could help many.

This is not an attack on the pug community, I'm endeavoring to better it. You won't see that though... If I say the sky is blue, you'll say it's red. That's you. You haven't changed.

When you post something using the word "checklist" and instruct ppl to read it before using the vet dungeon tool, you are insulting people, offending people and there are always those who share your points of view as well.

Some things are obvious but this post seeks to encourage the forum community to adhere to a concept that isn't the design intent of the game. Furthermore from hands on you and I know that this "checklist" is completely opinionated.

Tanks- while they should shield the group, stun, block and pull, they don't "have to taunt".
Dps- shouldn't do a lot of aoe unless the group builds allow CC, heals and the other dos and tank to keep order
Healer - should heal but is welcomed to dos while healing as I can throw a heal on me and pop a potion too..

That's a lot of power in one little word. "Checklist". I wonder if I gave a random in the street a "checklist" asking them to give me a pedicure and clean my apartment if they'd do it?

Anyway. Good to know a tank shouldn't taunt. That a dps should focus on attacking one enemy out of the 10 they are attacking and that a healer should focus on themselves. Sounds like an awesome team!

It should be read as tanks shouldnt be required to taunt if they are otherwise effective.
You're making illogical conclusions from reading comments but again....whatever works for you, I just know that there are other ways to have success in those roles without using an old traditional trinity concept.

I am 100% sure you won't have success or be effective as a tank if you don't use taunt.
No matter what else you try to help your team. If the DDs get oneshotted by the boss because you failed to hold aggro, you failed your job as tank.

If DPS is getting 1-shot then the issue isn't a taunt.
As far as taking lots of dmg due to lacking taunts, see one example above

Also, many bosses switch targets by design which has nothing to do with the tank not taunting.

On Vet dungeons in a PUG, someone might die so it's not the end of the world....it happens, Rez and move on.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Im a little surpised by some of the responses in here. Since the new group finder, Maybe im just lucky but as dps usually grouped with another dps it usually only takes us between 1-15 minutes to find a group. Im on pc i suppose maybe that makes a difference. Are most dps really waiting an hour?

Also ive almost never had a problem with someone joining after a boss has been killed quiting because of the daily? Usually people who fill in hop in and do great. And it is usually a tank or healer since as i said im usually groupedm with another dps. Is it that strange that people that fill in stay and help after the dungeon is started? Although i do make a point of telling people who join right away where we are. So if they want to move on they can.

I know it is sort of off topic but i saw a couple people mention that stuff. So i was curious.

CaptainBeerDude

Duiwel wrote: »

Level Imperial dance emote made me lol...

Miszou wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Man, I have 2 blue items, a ring and an ammy.
The rest is green.
And WAY out of date.
I'm level 39 with even parts level 20, since no stuff comes along for my character.

You should really look into crafting your own gear. Materials practically fall from the sky, the research is an interesting little side-game and crafted set items can make a huge difference - even at lower levels.

Sets like Deaths Wind or Ashen Grip are ridiculously easy to make and the full-set bonuses can really help out. You don't even have to craft them up to gold or anything - blue will probably be plenty while leveling.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crafted+Sets

I though Ashen Grip only procced on melee attacks? Spec pet build would be using staves, right?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

To the OP, I really like the rant/guide. I have to keep in mind that it was written with pugs in mind, and not min/maxing. Definitely a good read if you have no idea how to do 4-man content. I would push back on two things.

1. I think your health numbers are too high for tanks. If I see a tank with 30k+ health, 50/50 I am in for a rough ride. Most tanks are running much lower health bars these days. 25K is plenty, but admittedly, I would rather see a tank with 30k health than with 18K.

2. Your crit numbers are a little off. A magic character in 5 piece julianos, full gold gear, precise weapons, all divines, and theif mundus is going to have 72% crit on the nose. Most people pugging arent going to be that high, and if you go with a set like TBS (arguably better) your crit will be even lower. Stamblades are a totally different story.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

70-75% crit? Shesh, I'm a 2H/Bow Stamina Nord Nightblade with around 40-50% crit chance, and my damage is more than fine.

There is always going to be a debate about what is "acceptable" DPS and what is "High" DPS. I have no doubt you can clear any and all content (save VMOL) with that level of crit, but you wont pull high DPS PVE. Stam Nightblades can easily push 85% crit, and that is not talking a Khajiit with their crazy crit bonus. You are missing out on a lot of DPS running crit that low.

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

A LIST OF THINGS TO KNOW BEFORE ENTERING VETERAN DUNGEONS VIA THE ACTIVITY FINDER

...

Great stuff! A few comments from my perspective:

• The value of 70-75% crit is really high for a good number of builds. I usually max out at 65% crit using Thief, Inner Light, and Julianos (perhaps it is a magicka thing). The only way to get higher for me is using Precise weapons which is a DPS loss most of time compared to Nirnhoned or Sharpened. Since this is aimed at inexperienced players I would say try to achieve a crit value of at least 50% if not higher. A lot of time you'd want to choose the Shadow mundus anyways if your crit is higher than 50% anyways.
• 18k Health is a good target for DPS newbies but you can get away will much less if you are careful and know the mechanics. I've played with sorcs having 10-12k health who do just fine. As a healer I like to get in the 18-20k range if I can...as you mention there are a lot of AoE/one-hit mechanics that hit in the 15k range if you're not careful.
• Saying 27.5k minimum for tank health is a bit deceiving...you can go lower and be just fine depending on your build. I've seen sorc tanks in the 15-18k health range do just fine.
  

I agree with a lot of this. I dont agree with your statement about precise. Since they changed the way spell pen works, I have gone to precise on most of my builds. Crit is king at the moment. I will also say that 10-12k might work in some situations in a perfect group (and you are keeping up a shield), but OPs guidlines on health are are fairly spot on in this context. Running a shield in PVE as a DPS loss, I would rather eat some blue food and not run a shield. I think the tank number is a touch high, but If I saw a tank with 15k health in a dungeon finder group, I would probably run for the hills.

LadyNalcarya

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

4 ppl in the group right...
Regardless of class or role, we all have stuns, CC. Since many in this topic are using a traditional MMORPG roles analogy....in all of those prior games, you pull from ranged.
Group sits back while someone goes to pull. CC pull, and when the adds come, CC those so the one or two that remain, the group assists the tank. So the tank doesn't have a taunt, then the tank starts the CC pull. Weapon swap and pull, then swap back or CC 1&2 then swap back. The other dps would CC and for those large pulls, the healer too.

Since the tank pulled and the dps only CC one, the group assists the tank. Kill one or two in-CC'ed and rinse and repeat.
Boss fights, you can't CC the boss so you use this method for the adds to pull the boss.

If your dps remove their AOE's and use direct dmg and CC, this isn't a problem but it needs to be communicated.
That's one example. That's not the only method.

First of all, some mobs are cc-immune, and those mobs happen to be the most hard-hitting.
Also, what about healers that will have to heal every trash pull for 10 minutes while dds are doing random cc and stuns and strong mobs are on the loose?
And if you didnt know, healing draws a ton of aggro.

I'm sure we've all had the Sorc tank with no taunt that runs shields, AOE's and liquid lightning. The rest of the group still should direct dmg one and cycle until all are dead.

If I see something like this, I'll leave the group in a blink of an eye. Cause this pseudo-tanking only works if all "dds" pull significantly less than a sorc.
Also, if its a group formed with gf tool, this sorc deserves being kicked as he/she wanted to cheat the system and get a group faster.
And I dont understand why this magicka sorc cant equip inner fire. I "tanked" some dungeons in this manner, and it not complicated.

This game offers much more viable options than requiring the tank to taunt.
Also...the original design until changed only allowed the tank to taunt every 12 secs or do often with diminishing returns or if done too often, it cause the taunt to force Aggro on a DPS or healer.

DK's, Templars, NB's and Sorcs all can do a ton of AOe as a tank depending upon their choices.
I'm not saying every build can work but I am saying that taunts are not 100% required to be a tank.
I'm not saying I prefer a tank to taunt or not, but I'm saying I look to work with players rather than pre-determine a group based on something trivial as "taunts" from the tank.

Have you played veteran dungeons and trials?