Armchair Developer Dead?

m0riarty23

Is this segment on ESO Live dead? the forum thread is

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160152/the-armchair-developer-comes-to-eso-live#latest

tinythinker

Unless they get the Loremaster to conduct a necromantic ritual on ESO Live, and I'm pretty sure Lawrence would be up for that.

TheValkyn

The developers involved probably resigned.

Gidorick

lol. yea... it was shot in the head, cut into tiny pieces, scattered around the three factions of Tamriel, and buried deep under the surface of Nirn.

The ONE Armchair Developer segment that exists wasn't really a discussion of the topic anyway. The topic was Underwater Environments and they pretty much just showed that they

• Don't read what we post in the forums
• Don't care about what we want
• Don't want to be bothered to code things that are difficult.

And the whole thing had a weird air of humor to it... kind of like they thought the idea of underwater environments was ridiculous.

tinythinker

Gidorick wrote: »

lol. yea... it was shot in the head, cut into tiny pieces, scattered around the three factions of Tamriel, and buried deep under the surface of Nirn.

The ONE Armchair Developer segment that exists wasn't really a discussion of the topic anyway. The topic was Underwater Environments and they pretty much just showed that they

• Don't read what we post in the forums
• Don't care about what we want
• Don't want to be bothered to code things that are difficult.

And the whole thing had a weird air of humor to it... kind of like they thought the idea of underwater environments was ridiculous.

But, but...

SirAndy

Gidorick wrote: »

it was shot in the head, cut into tiny pieces, scattered around the three factions of Tamriel, and buried deep under the surface of Nirn.

I remember that quest! Took me forever to find all those pieces ...

Katahdin

Not everyone wants UW zones over new zones period. I'd much rather see new areas of Tamriel opened than UW zones.

m0riarty23

Well, i never thought Armchair Developer was meant for them to explain why they can't do something or even put them on the "to do" list.

thought it would be a good idea for them to show and explain what type of work goes into "out of the box" ideas.

What would be the pipeline process for implementing one of these ideas?
How much time would it take?
What are the pitfalls and unbalancing issues would the idea add to the game?
With the current build of the base game, how well could the idea even be implemented?

overall feasibility rating?

tinythinker

Katahdin wrote: »

Not everyone wants UW zones over new zones period. I'd much rather see new areas of Tamriel opened than UW zones.

Not everyone who wants underwater exploration/combat wants underwater zones, but rather underwater areas added to new and existing zones to expand and enhance the content

m0riarty23

Hell, i added over a half a dozen ideas to that thread knowing they would never have a chance of fitting into the game. But you never know, what crazy "of of left field" ideas might just work.

I see that a lot of people didn't even really understand the premise of the forum thread, posting bug fixes and small adjustments to already existing game mechanics.

Gidorick

SirAndy wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

it was shot in the head, cut into tiny pieces, scattered around the three factions of Tamriel, and buried deep under the surface of Nirn.

I remember that quest! Took me forever to find all those pieces ...

Legitimate LOL from that @SirAndy .

Katahdin wrote: »

Not everyone wants UW zones over new zones period. I'd much rather see new areas of Tamriel opened than UW zones.

I don't think anyone ever asked for underwater ZONES @Katahdin... we are asking for underwater exploration in the zones that we get. It's a request for a more immersive environment... not a completely submersed one.

This is the same kind of misunderstanding the Devs had... because they didn't bother to read what we are actually talking about.

Gidorick

tinythinker wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

lol. yea... it was shot in the head, cut into tiny pieces, scattered around the three factions of Tamriel, and buried deep under the surface of Nirn.

The ONE Armchair Developer segment that exists wasn't really a discussion of the topic anyway. The topic was Underwater Environments and they pretty much just showed that they

• Don't read what we post in the forums
• Don't care about what we want
• Don't want to be bothered to code things that are difficult.

And the whole thing had a weird air of humor to it... kind of like they thought the idea of underwater environments was ridiculous.

But, but...

LOL @tinythinker . I like the red disclaimers you added to that thread.

Katahdin

The thing is, creating an underwater environment even as an addition to an existing zone is like creating miniature zones. It isn't a trivial exercise. If a choice had to be made (and it would have to be made) regarding where devlopment time would be spent, I would still choose new land areas over underwater.

Besides, wasn't there a technical reason that makes UW unfeasible? IE the engine can't handle it?

m0riarty23

Ok, now i'm getting why they killed this segment. Seems like people here are treating it like a commitment on their part to actually move forward on the idea.

Shame that a developer can't have a conversation about how cool an idea would be but that it wouldn't fit into the current game. People seem to have a bad reaction for them just bring it up.

NewBlacksmurf

Gidorick wrote: »

lol. yea... it was shot in the head, cut into tiny pieces, scattered around the three factions of Tamriel, and buried deep under the surface of Nirn.

The ONE Armchair Developer segment that exists wasn't really a discussion of the topic anyway. The topic was Underwater Environments and they pretty much just showed that they

• Don't read what we post in the forums
• Don't care about what we want
• Don't want to be bothered to code things that are difficult.

And the whole thing had a weird air of humor to it... kind of like they thought the idea of underwater environments was ridiculous.

Not sure if this is humor but that was not at all what I gathered from that ESO Live.
Honestly, I was glad they did it but its not something they should or could do very often....largely because of how the forums reacted. Your comment and the threads about it, pretty much summed up the following:

-ZOS DOES read the forums A LOT but many of those who complain, bash and use the forums DON"T WATCH ESO LIVE regularly.

m0riarty23 wrote: »

Well, i never thought Armchair Developer was meant for them to explain why they can't do something or even put them on the "to do" list.

thought it would be a good idea for them to show and explain what type of work goes into "out of the box" ideas.

What would be the pipeline process for implementing one of these ideas?
How much time would it take?
What are the pitfalls and unbalancing issues would the idea add to the game?
With the current build of the base game, how well could the idea even be implemented?

overall feasibility rating?

The above is exactly what everyone should have gathered from it....but ZOS realized, a lot of their community was unable to obtain that level of understanding. The community seems to rather want to ask for things and then expect an answer and expect many ideas to be added if a poll suggests that is largely interest.

Reality and the whole point of the armchair was to share....folks, we do read your posts, and discuss them a lot but FYI....most of your ideas aren't feasible or will take a year or more of development time as the studio isn't as large and resourceful as many of you think it to be.

The later is...many of you would rather be playing XYZ game in an ESO skin.
Thats not what ZOS is here to offer, sorry.

m0riarty23

well, if anyone cares, there are some new postings in that thread. If anyone wants to add more BIG IDEAS over there i have fun reading them. I'm sure ZEN won't touch them with a 10 foot pole now i'm seeing the reaction, but no worries. Forums are of the community to engage with each other.

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160152/the-armchair-developer-comes-to-eso-live#latest

Gidorick

Katahdin wrote: »

The thing is, creating an underwater environment even as an addition to an existing zone is like creating miniature zones. It isn't a trivial exercise. If a choice had to be made (and it would have to be made) regarding where devlopment time would be spent, I would still choose new land areas over underwater.

Besides, wasn't there a technical reason that makes UW unfeasible? IE the engine can't handle it?

Because current development time is spent making huge, expansive vistas eh @Katahdin ? *cough-Hew's Bane-cough* And making zones in ESO isn't a trivial exercise, with or without underwater. Additionally, the environments already exist... just not the game mechanics to explore them.

And the technical reason is simply that the engine wasn't designed with this in mind.

tinythinker

m0riarty23 wrote: »

Ok, now i'm getting why they killed this segment. Seems like people here are treating it like a commitment on their part to actually move forward on the idea.

Folks like to toss out ideas, but it was always clear that the Armchair segment was meant to give players a sense of the size and scope of what they are asking for. I think the same issues the devs raised for underwater, which were really insightful, also apply to flying spells or flying mounts.

m0riarty23 wrote: »

Shame that a developer can't have a conversation about how cool an idea would be but that it wouldn't fit into the current game. People seem to have a bad reaction for them just bring it up.

The one segment didn't really seem like something those involved wanted to do but were asked to do for the program. If it had been more a case of "Oooooh yes, this idea would be so cool! Can you picture it? Here's how much work it would take/why it isn't feasible right now, but if things change we would seriously want to try this!", it might have take off. But it kind of felt like more of a pre-planning meeting for something no one was interested in ever putting out. Still appreciated the effort and the information, though.

Katahdin

No UW environments don't exist. Water currently is a texture on a 2D surface. To make it an environment they would need make it a 3D space. The physics are different because it is 3D unlike land which is pretty much 2D because we don't fly.

So it would require a whole new set of physics algorithms that would bring more work than new zones.

I didnt say making new zones was trivial so dont put words in my mouth. They did spend development time making the TG zone. That city alone is very complex and detailed took tons of hours to create so you shouldn't trivialize it either. They are working on DB zone/content. Those areas didn't create themselves.

ZOS doesnt have unlimited staff and resources. So yes, if devlopment time is to be spent creating new anything, I prefer new land zones to explore, not swimming in the pond in Auridon for clams.

No need to get your underwear in a twist just because I disagree with you. I am entitled to my opinion the same as you.

Lightninvash

Katahdin wrote: »

No UW environments don't exist. Water currently is a texture on a surface. To make it an environment they would need make it a 3D space. The physics are different because it is 3D unlike land which is pretty much 2D because we don't fly.

So it would require a whole new set of physics algorithms that would bring more work than new zones.

I didnt say making new zones was trivial so dont put words in my mouth. They did spend development time making the TG zone. That city alone took tons of hours to create. And they are working on DB content. Those areas didn't create themselves.

ZOS doesnt have unlimited staff and resources. So yes, if devlopment time is to be spent creating new anything, I prefer new land zones to explore, not swimming in the pond in Auridon for clams.

but then you can not make clam stew...

Ra'Shtar

I want sea battles, being able to build my own ship with lots of farming and even build a fishing boat after a fishing revamp that makes it more fun an attractive. This would make ESO a dream come true if its introduced with housing.

Katahdin

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

I want sea battles, being able to build my own ship with lots of farming and even build a fishing boat after a fishing revamp that makes it more fun an attractive. This would make ESO a dream come true if its introduced with housing.

Not gona happen with housing. Doubt will happen at all but you never know.

Gidorick

Katahdin wrote: »

No UW environments don't exist. Water currently is a texture on a 2D surface. To make it an environment they would need make it a 3D space. The physics are different because it is 3D unlike land which is pretty much 2D because we don't fly.

So it would require a whole new set of physics algorithms that would bring more work than new zones.

I didnt say making new zones was trivial so dont put words in my mouth. They did spend development time making the TG zone. That city alone is very complex and detailed took tons of hours to create so you shouldn't trivialize it either. They are working on DB zone/content. Those areas didn't create themselves.

ZOS doesnt have unlimited staff and resources. So yes, if devlopment time is to be spent creating new anything, I prefer new land zones to explore, not swimming in the pond in Auridon for clams.

No need to get your underwear in a twist just because I disagree with you. I am entitled to my opinion the same as you.

When you respond to someone @Katahdin , it's generally considered a good idea to tag them, as I have done. This informs the person that you've responded to them.

Anywho... the environments do indeed exist... the surface of the water isn't the "ground". There is volume of space beneath you. No, they're not decorated or fleshed out but there is definitely a "space" there. You can see it if you just look toward the ground when you're swimming.

There is an old glitch that let you explore the floor of the water environments but it hasn't happened to me since Beta.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMQwI3xYItc

Of course I recognize that the development time it would take to populate these spaces with creatures, crafting nodes, treasures, plants, etc. would be significant... but the fact that we are STILL discussing/debating this should mean that it is important to some of us in the community.

and the comment about making TG content being trivial wasn't meant to put words into your mouth it was a sarcastic comment pointing out that pretty much all work is not trivial. The intended meaning obviously wasn't conveyed properly... and I should have known. Sarcasm doesn't convey well through text. My bad.

I 100% agree that we can disagree that ZOS spending time making underwater environments is a good use of their time. We very obviously disagree since you don't think it is and I do. I'm very comfortable with that.

What we can't "just disagree" on is water being a 2D surface vs it having a 3D space beneath it. There is very plainly a 3d space beneath the water.

Gidorick

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

lol. yea... it was shot in the head, cut into tiny pieces, scattered around the three factions of Tamriel, and buried deep under the surface of Nirn.

The ONE Armchair Developer segment that exists wasn't really a discussion of the topic anyway. The topic was Underwater Environments and they pretty much just showed that they

• Don't read what we post in the forums
• Don't care about what we want
• Don't want to be bothered to code things that are difficult.

And the whole thing had a weird air of humor to it... kind of like they thought the idea of underwater environments was ridiculous.

Not sure if this is humor but that was not at all what I gathered from that ESO Live.
Honestly, I was glad they did it but its not something they should or could do very often....largely because of how the forums reacted. Your comment and the threads about it, pretty much summed up the following:

-ZOS DOES read the forums A LOT but many of those who complain, bash and use the forums DON"T WATCH ESO LIVE regularly.

m0riarty23 wrote: »

Well, i never thought Armchair Developer was meant for them to explain why they can't do something or even put them on the "to do" list.

thought it would be a good idea for them to show and explain what type of work goes into "out of the box" ideas.

What would be the pipeline process for implementing one of these ideas?
How much time would it take?
What are the pitfalls and unbalancing issues would the idea add to the game?
With the current build of the base game, how well could the idea even be implemented?

overall feasibility rating?

The above is exactly what everyone should have gathered from it....but ZOS realized, a lot of their community was unable to obtain that level of understanding. The community seems to rather want to ask for things and then expect an answer and expect many ideas to be added if a poll suggests that is largely interest.

Reality and the whole point of the armchair was to share....folks, we do read your posts, and discuss them a lot but FYI....most of your ideas aren't feasible or will take a year or more of development time as the studio isn't as large and resourceful as many of you think it to be.

The later is...many of you would rather be playing XYZ game in an ESO skin.
Thats not what ZOS is here to offer, sorry.

While it was laced with sort of snarky humor @NewBlacksmurf , I'm dead serious about the 3 points. Now... I will admit my perspective on this has become a bit caustic over the past year (as has my general opinion of ESO, honestly)... but I remember this segment well. I think they did indeed show us the three points I mentioned.

They showed that they don't read our posts because they spent a good deal of time talking about Underwater Combat (which many of us have said we don't need and many just flat out do not want) and Underwater Mounts (Something I don't think we EVER discussed on the forums prior that armchair developer and something that TES has never had)... and they spend some time explaining how they would need to add a third axis of movement to the engine and all the additional animations which would need to be added to the game.

And yea, we fully understand that it was an explanation of the type of work involved... but it really came across as someone trying to explain why they didn't complete their homework to their teacher.

Overall though, if anyone is interested, it's best that you watch the segment yourself... it's 40 minutes:

Start at 1:11 and goes to 1:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxigt8ipK1g

I just rewatched it and I still get the same "but it would be a lot of work..." vibe to it. However, it's a great watch and I highly recommend that anyone interested in the thought process of developers watch it. It's a shame they didn't do more... I feel kind of bad for being part of the community that caused them to not pursue further episodes.

If they ever did another I would like to hear more about something that is in the game that had hurdles for them to jump over and how they overcame the problems that arose. That way it wouldn't come across as patronizing.

NewBlacksmurf

Gidorick wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

lol. yea... it was shot in the head, cut into tiny pieces, scattered around the three factions of Tamriel, and buried deep under the surface of Nirn.

The ONE Armchair Developer segment that exists wasn't really a discussion of the topic anyway. The topic was Underwater Environments and they pretty much just showed that they

• Don't read what we post in the forums
• Don't care about what we want
• Don't want to be bothered to code things that are difficult.

And the whole thing had a weird air of humor to it... kind of like they thought the idea of underwater environments was ridiculous.

Not sure if this is humor but that was not at all what I gathered from that ESO Live.
Honestly, I was glad they did it but its not something they should or could do very often....largely because of how the forums reacted. Your comment and the threads about it, pretty much summed up the following:

-ZOS DOES read the forums A LOT but many of those who complain, bash and use the forums DON"T WATCH ESO LIVE regularly.

m0riarty23 wrote: »

Well, i never thought Armchair Developer was meant for them to explain why they can't do something or even put them on the "to do" list.

thought it would be a good idea for them to show and explain what type of work goes into "out of the box" ideas.

What would be the pipeline process for implementing one of these ideas?
How much time would it take?
What are the pitfalls and unbalancing issues would the idea add to the game?
With the current build of the base game, how well could the idea even be implemented?

overall feasibility rating?

The above is exactly what everyone should have gathered from it....but ZOS realized, a lot of their community was unable to obtain that level of understanding. The community seems to rather want to ask for things and then expect an answer and expect many ideas to be added if a poll suggests that is largely interest.

Reality and the whole point of the armchair was to share....folks, we do read your posts, and discuss them a lot but FYI....most of your ideas aren't feasible or will take a year or more of development time as the studio isn't as large and resourceful as many of you think it to be.

The later is...many of you would rather be playing XYZ game in an ESO skin.
Thats not what ZOS is here to offer, sorry.

While it was laced with sort of snarky humor @NewBlacksmurf , I'm dead serious about the 3 points. Now... I will admit my perspective on this has become a bit caustic over the past year (as has my general opinion of ESO, honestly)... but I remember this segment well. I think they did indeed show us the three points I mentioned.

They showed that they don't read our posts because they spent a good deal of time talking about Underwater Combat (which many of us have said we don't need and many just flat out do not want) and Underwater Mounts (Something I don't think we EVER discussed on the forums prior that armchair developer and something that TES has never had)... and they spend some time explaining how they would need to add a third axis of movement to the engine and all the additional animations which would need to be added to the game.

And yea, we fully understand that it was an explanation of the type of work involved... but it really came across as someone trying to explain why they didn't complete their homework to their teacher.

Overall though, if anyone is interested, it's best that you watch the segment yourself... it's 40 minutes:

Start at 1:11 and goes to 1:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxigt8ipK1g

I just rewatched it and I still get the same "but it would be a lot of work..." vibe to it. However, it's a great watch and I highly recommend that anyone interested in the thought process of developers watch it. It's a shame they didn't do more... I feel kind of bad for being part of the community that caused them to not pursue further episodes.

If they ever did another I would like to hear more about something that is in the game that had hurdles for them to jump over and how they overcame the problems that arose. That way it wouldn't come across as patronizing.

Very interesting that you got this out of the segment.....lets say many others had you same response.
If I'm ZOS, I'd not spend much more time on it because those who prefaced the segment before it started literally at 1:09:00...addressed your 3 items and many more, in addition to specific threads and why they did or did not include those in this segment.

Then the follow-up after the segment also details....each of your three as well as the dev tracker.

Enodoc

I asked about this on ESO Live and they said they would consider doing it again:

ZOS_KaiSchober wrote: »

Ask Us Anything – ESO Live 1/15/16
Enodoc - You did an "Armchair Developer" segment a while ago on underwater exploration and combat. Would you consider doing another "Armchair Developer" feature on flying mounts?
We’ll consider it. Thanks for the idea!