As a Dunmar Magic fire DK should I...

old_mufasa

As a Dunmar Magic fire DK should I switch to dual wielding instead of using Destro staff.. right now I'm running destroy staff and resto staff and am 100% into magika.. I'm pretty much using all DK skill for offence. I have no skills into dual wield and none into stam. I'm vet rank 7 should I invest into dual wield..

If so as a magic Dk is the duel wield just a stat sticks? or do you use any of the skills? do I need any stam for a dual wield build? and what about the loss of passives in the destro staff tree are they worth losing? Can you DW any weapon as a magic based or are certain ones better? as far as champion points do you spend any in to melee weapon tree.

Sorry for the amount of questions just want to know before seeing if its worth retooling my gear and skills.. thanks for any info you can give.

PS: I'm also a vampire.

Sharee

Magicka builds are using dual wield for the DW skill passive that increases all your damage when wielding two swords(and also highest base spell dmg). You do not use any actual DW skills as a magicka build as you cannot afford the stamina cost, and they do not do good damage either (since you have low stamina pool).

That being said, you do not need to use DW. It's the most damage, but you lose the ability to regain magicka by doing heavy attacks, lose range(compared to destro staff), lose defense(compared to shield) etc. It's a matter of choice.

old_mufasa

Do you think its worth switching as a DK fire mage build its not like I have range attacks to start with and I can use resto staff and vampire skills to regen... also sword one the only passiveyou take in the dw tree? my only concern is I lose the proc chance on elemental force.. and lose all range... oh I I guess you don't weave with a dw build as well? but you gian the ability to have another set item on you that you don't have with staff.

Stannum

In PvE I use DW to maximize 1-target dmg. So I have AoE skills on my destro bar (as fire ring is a good spam) and one target skills on my DW bar. As for resto, you do not need resto if you go DPS, but resto may be usefull in PvP.

Acsvf

You'll lose the ability to weave attacks in if you use dual wield, it's not just the abilities. I wouldn't use DW on my single target bar.

old_mufasa

Acsvf wrote: »

You'll lose the ability to weave attacks in if you use dual wield, it's not just the abilities. I wouldn't use DW on my single target bar.

Ok.. so when would you.. only aoe? and with out staff wouldn't you lose out on a lot of the aoe skills?

Haquor

i now run destro main bar and dw on back bar with the talons buff. destro bar is single target whip weave and dots (embers, engulfing and blockade) and back bar is aoe bar with eruption, talons, draw essence, proxy. both bars with inner light. meteor on front bar for increased magicka but dont use it. standard of might on the backbar buffed by dw with initial hit is the ulti u want.

aoe bar gets its magicka return from draw essence so no requirement to medium weave.

main bar uses light or medium weaving with whip once all dots are rolling and allows slotting of blockade of fire (and force pulse when whip is not practical)

so yeah i used to run destro on backbar but that was just for elemental ring and that is now uneccessary.

mr_wazzabi

Haquor wrote: »

i now run destro main bar and dw on back bar with the talons buff. destro bar is single target whip weave and dots (embers, engulfing and blockade) and back bar is aoe bar with eruption, talons, draw essence, proxy. both bars with inner light. meteor on front bar for increased magicka but dont use it. standard of might on the backbar buffed by dw with initial hit is the ulti u want.

aoe bar gets its magicka return from draw essence so no requirement to medium weave.

main bar uses light or medium weaving with whip once all dots are rolling and allows slotting of blockade of fire (and force pulse when whip is not practical)

so yeah i used to run destro on backbar but that was just for elemental ring and that is now uneccessary.

Without impulse do you find the aoe burn slow?
I always thought spammable instant aoe is required and delayed burst (proxy, inhale) and dots won't kill trash fast enough. When I run with sap essense and teammates have impulse or steel tornado, everything's dead before my proxy det goes off.

Septimus_Magna

On my DK I use the following setup for pve dps:

DW bar: Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Molten Whip, Inner Light, Flames of Oblivion - Shooting Star
Fire staff: Cinder Storm, Wall of Elements/Igneous Weapons, Pulsar/Force Pulse, Inner Light, Flames of Oblivion - Standard of Might

It works pretty well but you need to be close to the target for Molten Whip and medium weapon attack to hit. For fights where you dont need aoe and want an option for ranged attacks you can replace Pulsar with Force Pulse. You can also replace Pulsar with Elemental Drain if there healers isnt able to slot it.

RedFireDisco

Entropy is useful for a Dragon knight as it stacks with your other DOT's and lets your next attack 100% proc the mage guild empower (20% more damage). It also increases spell damage for 20 secs, give you a Heal over time and a permanent health buff.

pretzl

I still can't honestly believe people in here are actually SUGGESTING DW for PvE DPS. Even worse; some people are suggesting it for your main-bar *cringe*.

Strictly for PvE, Destro/Destro will ALWAYS outperform Destro/Resto or Destro/DW. DW on mainbar is just plain *** as you're loosing a crapton of DPS by not weaving. The extra damage from DW tree does NOT outweigh the damage you get from weaving and thus proccing Kena.

I'm not going to claim I'm the best Magicka DK in this game - far from it - but this guide will certainly give you better tips than anything provided in this thread...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Shame on people for suggesting DW main-bar and being serious about it.

Ni7eWa7ch

I'd stick with fire destro staff as main weapon , in pvp i'd use shield and sword only to close the gap with bash
edit: on second bar the shield and sword

Haquor

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Haquor wrote: »

i now run destro main bar and dw on back bar with the talons buff. destro bar is single target whip weave and dots (embers, engulfing and blockade) and back bar is aoe bar with eruption, talons, draw essence, proxy. both bars with inner light. meteor on front bar for increased magicka but dont use it. standard of might on the backbar buffed by dw with initial hit is the ulti u want.

aoe bar gets its magicka return from draw essence so no requirement to medium weave.

main bar uses light or medium weaving with whip once all dots are rolling and allows slotting of blockade of fire (and force pulse when whip is not practical)

so yeah i used to run destro on backbar but that was just for elemental ring and that is now uneccessary.

Without impulse do you find the aoe burn slow?
I always thought spammable instant aoe is required and delayed burst (proxy, inhale) and dots won't kill trash fast enough. When I run with sap essense and teammates have impulse or steel tornado, everything's dead before my proxy det goes off.

its not about dots.

Have a look at the initial hit damage from talons with dw and compare it to elemental ring with destri. and then consider the additional damage every other ability like proxy and essence explosions get from having dual wield equiped. the cost of talons spam is countered through essence.

my aoe is rediclous on the dk with a proxy/essence explosion and talons spam.

and i dont run kena anymore. vast majority of trash pulls in most pve melts so quick worrying about proccing kena during quick traah melt is kinda meh. i get more aoe with dw and no kena than what i was with procing kena and usin a destro. considering the speed of the burn.

Septimus_Magna

pretzl wrote: »

I still can't honestly believe people in here are actually SUGGESTING DW for PvE DPS. Even worse; some people are suggesting it for your main-bar *cringe*.

Strictly for PvE, Destro/Destro will ALWAYS outperform Destro/Resto or Destro/DW. DW on mainbar is just plain *** as you're loosing a crapton of DPS by not weaving. The extra damage from DW tree does NOT outweigh the damage you get from weaving and thus proccing Kena.

I'm not going to claim I'm the best Magicka DK in this game - far from it - but this guide will certainly give you better tips than anything provided in this thread...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Shame on people for suggesting DW main-bar and being serious about it.

Have you seen this? http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pvewhips-n-chains-the-naughty-version-of-magicka-dk-by-iwm/

mr_wazzabi

Haquor wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Haquor wrote: »

i now run destro main bar and dw on back bar with the talons buff. destro bar is single target whip weave and dots (embers, engulfing and blockade) and back bar is aoe bar with eruption, talons, draw essence, proxy. both bars with inner light. meteor on front bar for increased magicka but dont use it. standard of might on the backbar buffed by dw with initial hit is the ulti u want.

aoe bar gets its magicka return from draw essence so no requirement to medium weave.

main bar uses light or medium weaving with whip once all dots are rolling and allows slotting of blockade of fire (and force pulse when whip is not practical)

so yeah i used to run destro on backbar but that was just for elemental ring and that is now uneccessary.

Without impulse do you find the aoe burn slow?
I always thought spammable instant aoe is required and delayed burst (proxy, inhale) and dots won't kill trash fast enough. When I run with sap essense and teammates have impulse or steel tornado, everything's dead before my proxy det goes off.

its not about dots.

Have a look at the initial hit damage from talons with dw and compare it to elemental ring with destri. and then consider the additional damage every other ability like proxy and essence explosions get from having dual wield equiped. the cost of talons spam is countered through essence.

my aoe is rediclous on the dk with a proxy/essence explosion and talons spam.

and i dont run kena anymore. vast majority of trash pulls in most pve melts so quick worrying about proccing kena during quick traah melt is kinda meh. i get more aoe with dw and no kena than what i was with procing kena and usin a destro. considering the speed of the burn.

Do your run burning talons or choking?

pretzl

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

I still can't honestly believe people in here are actually SUGGESTING DW for PvE DPS. Even worse; some people are suggesting it for your main-bar *cringe*.

Strictly for PvE, Destro/Destro will ALWAYS outperform Destro/Resto or Destro/DW. DW on mainbar is just plain *** as you're loosing a crapton of DPS by not weaving. The extra damage from DW tree does NOT outweigh the damage you get from weaving and thus proccing Kena.

I'm not going to claim I'm the best Magicka DK in this game - far from it - but this guide will certainly give you better tips than anything provided in this thread...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Shame on people for suggesting DW main-bar and being serious about it.

Have you seen this? http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pvewhips-n-chains-the-naughty-version-of-magicka-dk-by-iwm/

yeah, have you?
suggesting DW as main-bar... jesus christ.

Asmael

FYI, DW have lost the extra spell power since TG hits, so there is absolutely NO reason to even consider it for single target DPS for PvE, confirmed further by multiple tests.

Hell, I'm not even running Kena on my mag DK (yet), which means less light attacks, but destro staff still beats DW any day...

For AoEs, it's something else, and one might be tempted (with good reason) to use Burning Talons instead of Impulse, which would encourage the use of DW since you wouldn't need a destro staff anymore for your AoE rotation (rotate with WoE, Inhale, Burning Talons, Engulfing flames, Eruption. Not in that order, those are just the possibilities...). However:
- Burning Talons is not cheap at all
- The actual tooltip is biased, since you lose %magic pen from losing destro staff
- You don't have magicka returned per kill
- You have half the chance to proc Burning effect from losing destro staff

Also, not related to Burning talons but DW as a whole:
- Even in AoE fights, you usually have a bigger mob, in which case you still want to weave in light attacks, thus losing extra power
- Proccing kena with a melee weapon is a pain. Nuff said.

I use a pretty similar setup to the Kindling power build (and funnily enough also based my own mag DK DD build on Mashinate's Whips 'n chains), and is definitely not easy to pull off (many dots to keep track off), but extremely powerful. Only difference is that I use Deep Breath instead of proxy, since it allows you to:
- Heal to full when clearing trash packs
- Interrupt NPCs
- Deal even more damage with the changes to CPs

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Entropy is useful for a Dragon knight as it stacks with your other DOT's and lets your next attack 100% proc the mage guild empower (20% more damage). It also increases spell damage for 20 secs, give you a Heal over time and a permanent health buff.

While Entropy is a very good ability, it's not on most DD's bar, since the Major sorcery buff is available thru pots (or your friendly DK healer running Igneous weapons). 1 less GCD spent buffing up means moar damage.

old_mufasa

Great now I'm confused even more..... lol

jpalm1995

Reroll

old_mufasa

Umm.. no..

Just surprised with scrolling combat texts and such that hard numbers are not set yet on what's the most effective is all.

hedna123b14_ESO

pretzl wrote: »

I still can't honestly believe people in here are actually SUGGESTING DW for PvE DPS. Even worse; some people are suggesting it for your main-bar *cringe*.

Strictly for PvE, Destro/Destro will ALWAYS outperform Destro/Resto or Destro/DW. DW on mainbar is just plain *** as you're loosing a crapton of DPS by not weaving. The extra damage from DW tree does NOT outweigh the damage you get from weaving and thus proccing Kena.

I'm not going to claim I'm the best Magicka DK in this game - far from it - but this guide will certainly give you better tips than anything provided in this thread...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Shame on people for suggesting DW main-bar and being serious about it.

Can't wait to post my DK build...you're gonna love DW mainbar...Coming Soon...

pretzl

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

I still can't honestly believe people in here are actually SUGGESTING DW for PvE DPS. Even worse; some people are suggesting it for your main-bar *cringe*.

Strictly for PvE, Destro/Destro will ALWAYS outperform Destro/Resto or Destro/DW. DW on mainbar is just plain *** as you're loosing a crapton of DPS by not weaving. The extra damage from DW tree does NOT outweigh the damage you get from weaving and thus proccing Kena.

I'm not going to claim I'm the best Magicka DK in this game - far from it - but this guide will certainly give you better tips than anything provided in this thread...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Shame on people for suggesting DW main-bar and being serious about it.

Can't wait to post my DK build...you're gonna love DW mainbar...Coming Soon...

You're gonna make me throw up. But he, if you beat my parses with dw mainbar I'll be watching!

ryanborror

Do not use dw for your main bar with whip and such. Medium attack weaving with staff is necessary for competitive damage. With thieves guild buffing some dk skills people are trying dw for back bar aoe purposes. This means dropping elemental ring but from my experience talons, inhale and eruption do plenty of damage without it. Fire ring is useful for magic return on kills but the inhale morph is better for that anyways. For pure single target fights I'd suggest destro both bars as you'll be able to weave back bar skills like eruption.

Septimus_Magna

pretzl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

I still can't honestly believe people in here are actually SUGGESTING DW for PvE DPS. Even worse; some people are suggesting it for your main-bar *cringe*.

Strictly for PvE, Destro/Destro will ALWAYS outperform Destro/Resto or Destro/DW. DW on mainbar is just plain *** as you're loosing a crapton of DPS by not weaving. The extra damage from DW tree does NOT outweigh the damage you get from weaving and thus proccing Kena.

I'm not going to claim I'm the best Magicka DK in this game - far from it - but this guide will certainly give you better tips than anything provided in this thread...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Shame on people for suggesting DW main-bar and being serious about it.

Have you seen this? http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pvewhips-n-chains-the-naughty-version-of-magicka-dk-by-iwm/

yeah, have you?
suggesting DW as main-bar... jesus christ.

Yeah, 475 extra spell dmg is basically neglectable.

I was able to pull 25k dps before my DW was fully leveled, how is that not viable dps?

Oh_Skrivva

Even if one used dw for main bar you can still light attack weave since your gonna be up close anyway with whips. I've been switching back and fourth between to test. Though I haven't seen much difference in my parse either way. Average 30k dps with no spell power buff or war horn from group. So I'm starting to think use which you prefer. If I can ever get a maelstrom fire destro I'll def go for staff on main bar cause from my buddies testing if you have on back bar you lose the bonus from ligh/heavy attacks when you switch to front bar if your front bar weapon is not a maelstrom destro staff.

pretzl

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

I still can't honestly believe people in here are actually SUGGESTING DW for PvE DPS. Even worse; some people are suggesting it for your main-bar *cringe*.

Strictly for PvE, Destro/Destro will ALWAYS outperform Destro/Resto or Destro/DW. DW on mainbar is just plain *** as you're loosing a crapton of DPS by not weaving. The extra damage from DW tree does NOT outweigh the damage you get from weaving and thus proccing Kena.

I'm not going to claim I'm the best Magicka DK in this game - far from it - but this guide will certainly give you better tips than anything provided in this thread...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Shame on people for suggesting DW main-bar and being serious about it.

Have you seen this? http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pvewhips-n-chains-the-naughty-version-of-magicka-dk-by-iwm/

yeah, have you?
suggesting DW as main-bar... jesus christ.

Yeah, 475 extra spell dmg is basically neglectable.

I was able to pull 25k dps before my DW was fully leveled, how is that not viable dps?

It is considering how much time you loose by trying to proc kena with dual swords.

I can pull 40k+ on any ST Vet dung boss. I'm nearing 36k on mantikora. How is 25k then viable? Haha.

Oh_Skrivva wrote: »

Even if one used dw for main bar you can still light attack weave since your gonna be up close anyway with whips. I've been switching back and fourth between to test. Though I haven't seen much difference in my parse either way. Average 30k dps with no spell power buff or war horn from group. So I'm starting to think use which you prefer. If I can ever get a maelstrom fire destro I'll def go for staff on main bar cause from my buddies testing if you have on back bar you lose the bonus from ligh/heavy attacks when you switch to front bar if your front bar weapon is not a maelstrom destro staff.

Have you even tested how much more damage your light weaves with a staff do compared to dw light? Have you seen how much easier it is to proc kena on a staff?
Saying DW mainbar is viable is just plain stupid.
DW off-bar is certainly viable, but that's more nitpicking than anything.

Oh_Skrivva

@pretzl, as I stated in my post I said I switch back and fourth to test each out and have yet to see significant changes. The 30k (at least) I pull with using either one is fine with me. I would like to do more testing with it. But I rotate through 7 v16 toons and don't play my mag dk as much to test it out fully. I basically test when I am running my dk on daily pledges since I try and do pledge on all my toons. If I can ever get a fire maelstrom staff. I would definitely do serious testing on my dk. But until then I don't have the time to spend on it with doing 7 pledges as well as running vma to try and get the staff.

Also what I choose to run as well as my play style may work for me and not for someone else. I was just giving my input on the discussion.

Septimus_Magna

pretzl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

I still can't honestly believe people in here are actually SUGGESTING DW for PvE DPS. Even worse; some people are suggesting it for your main-bar *cringe*.

Strictly for PvE, Destro/Destro will ALWAYS outperform Destro/Resto or Destro/DW. DW on mainbar is just plain *** as you're loosing a crapton of DPS by not weaving. The extra damage from DW tree does NOT outweigh the damage you get from weaving and thus proccing Kena.

I'm not going to claim I'm the best Magicka DK in this game - far from it - but this guide will certainly give you better tips than anything provided in this thread...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Shame on people for suggesting DW main-bar and being serious about it.

Have you seen this? http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pvewhips-n-chains-the-naughty-version-of-magicka-dk-by-iwm/

yeah, have you?
suggesting DW as main-bar... jesus christ.

Yeah, 475 extra spell dmg is basically neglectable.

I was able to pull 25k dps before my DW was fully leveled, how is that not viable dps?

It is considering how much time you loose by trying to proc kena with dual swords.

I can pull 40k+ on any ST Vet dung boss. I'm nearing 36k on mantikora. How is 25k then viable? Haha.

We're not even debating the same point mate..

pretzl

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

I still can't honestly believe people in here are actually SUGGESTING DW for PvE DPS. Even worse; some people are suggesting it for your main-bar *cringe*.

Strictly for PvE, Destro/Destro will ALWAYS outperform Destro/Resto or Destro/DW. DW on mainbar is just plain *** as you're loosing a crapton of DPS by not weaving. The extra damage from DW tree does NOT outweigh the damage you get from weaving and thus proccing Kena.

I'm not going to claim I'm the best Magicka DK in this game - far from it - but this guide will certainly give you better tips than anything provided in this thread...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Shame on people for suggesting DW main-bar and being serious about it.

Have you seen this? http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pvewhips-n-chains-the-naughty-version-of-magicka-dk-by-iwm/

yeah, have you?
suggesting DW as main-bar... jesus christ.

Yeah, 475 extra spell dmg is basically neglectable.

I was able to pull 25k dps before my DW was fully leveled, how is that not viable dps?

It is considering how much time you loose by trying to proc kena with dual swords.

I can pull 40k+ on any ST Vet dung boss. I'm nearing 36k on mantikora. How is 25k then viable? Haha.

We're not even debating the same point mate..

You're trying to say dualwield main-bar is viable. I disagree. Which part of our debate is not the same?
You're trying to say 500 spelldmg is superior to LA weaving with a staff. I also disagree here.
I don't see how our discussion is somehow abnormal?

Hutch679

Destro staff main bar in pve. Never dual wield main bar for pve content. Dual wield would be used for aoe's on off bar. Main bar destro staff is too good with the medium weave.

psychotic13

pretzl wrote: »

You're trying to say dualwield main-bar is viable. I disagree. Which part of our debate is not the same?
You're trying to say 500 spelldmg is superior to LA weaving with a staff. I also disagree here.
I don't see how our discussion is somehow abnormal?

Will you please take your head out of your ass, thank you. All you've done is moan, because it doesn't work for you it doesn't mean it won't work full stop, get over yourself.