Redesign The Bow Skill line

Anti_Virus

Yep not asking for a buff just a simple redesign on how bow functions.

Bow right now is best used for group play, in solo play it's terrible because we lack a reliable cc skill, and a dps skill

To be honest I just want snipe and draining shot to be changed

Snipe should have its travel time normalized, and remove the "snare" effect this will help the bow for sustained dps and less burst. How?

Well doing so will make this skill function more like force pulse allowing for smooth light attack weaving against targets. The dmg will need to be compensated but the net result would be less inta gib stealth snipes and more open combat sustained dps.

This will especially help against mobs like giants, trolls, mammoths and flying mobs and melee pvp builds all which cannot be kited but allows for once again quick sustained dps like an archer should have.

Since you can never keep your distance against these mobs (root and hard cc immune) and melee builds( gap closer spam) this will at least allow this skill to to be an effective dps skill in close range although you lose the long shots passive.


Draining shot should have its range increase to 28meters

Plain and simple it has a 10m range which is silly considering gap closers have double the range.

Also gives main hand bow users a reliable ranged CC skill.

If a bow ultimate was introduced it should be what snipe is now, a hard hitting ranged skill that requires positioning similar to how the NPC archers use taking aim.

EDIT:

These changes will help main hand bow user be competitive against staff users and melee builds in solo play without hindering builds that use bow for its utility( Volley, Bombard)

DannyLV702

Not for solo use? Lol solo play is one of the main reasons to use a bow. Well in pvp that is

Anti_Virus

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Not for solo use? Lol solo play is one of the main reasons to use a bow. Well in pvp that is

YES, but how do you use it? My guess would be stealth sniping huh?

DannyLV702

I use animation cancelled poison injections to open up and finish off with 2h bar (nightblade). The speed you get from dodge rolling is also godly.

DannyLV702

I NEVER use snipe, btw. It feels like the cheapest ability in the game.



Watch the video in this thread. It's meant to be funny, but its also a great example of what bow gameplay should be

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/243599/how-a-nightblade-thinks-watch/p1

Anti_Virus

DannyLV702 wrote: »

I use animation cancelled poison injections to open up and finish off with 2h bar (nightblade). The speed you get from dodge rolling is also godly.

Well that's the problem for 2h and bow builds bow is great for support, for main Hand bow users (like me) it's suffers major problems.

Anti_Virus

DannyLV702 wrote: »

I NEVER use snipe, btw. It feels like the cheapest ability in the game.

I think it's cheesy too man, that's why I want snipe to be redesigned so it isn't a 1 shot gank skill from stealth.

Mojmir

bow is a good opener, and good if you need distance (I.e. darkshade caverns final boss) but it's not a stand alone reliable skill line. It accompanies 2h quite well though.

Anti_Virus

Mojmir wrote: »

bow is a good opener, and good if you need distance (I.e. darkshade caverns final boss) but it's not a stand alone reliable skill line. It accompanies 2h quite well though.

Sadly this is true and Dedicated archers like me can't compete with staff builds and melee builds.

theher0not

It is good for solo IMO. I run around using basic attacks, lethal injection(Poision arrow with execute morph) and hunters mark. Then from time to time I jump into 2h to get my buffs up. (With snipe I can 1 shot from time to time with Rally+HM+Snipe from max distance).

If nothing else I can do Rally>Hunters Mark>Snipe>Poison Arrow (while snipe is still in the air)> Ambush>Surprise atrack and then Execute/heavy attack as a finisher

ArchMikem

I wish Bows actually felt powerful. Instead letting an arrow go sounds like a bird chirping, arrows leave tracers in their wake, and the velocity is so low it's like shooting a watergun.

ADarklore

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Bow right now is best used for group play, in solo play it's terrible because we lack a reliable cc skill, and a dps skill.

Not for solo? What type of solo, I use it for solo PvE questing all the time. No AoE you say, no CC you say, how about Bombard? It's freaking awesome and stops all enemies in their tracks. Typically on a group I launch Arrow Barrage and then use Bombard to hold them in place while Barrage finishes them off; nothing more fun than watching enemies unable to move while a hail or arrows falls down on them IMO.

I use Poison Injection for burst, Focused Aim (Snipe) is my opener and sometimes all I need is that one shot, I dropped Magnum Shot because I don't use a Bow for 'melee' combat. If I need to gain distance I can just Bombard and then dodge roll = Hasty Retreat to get distance. Thus, on my Bow bar I have Poison Injection, Bombard, Arrow Barrage, and Focused Aim... so far I've not need anything more in solo PvE questing.

Now, if the OP is talking about wanting to complete Maelstrom arena or other such content, then NO, Bow wouldn't be viable.

It was nice they recently changed the Hawk Eye passive as well... so normally I combine skill attacks with light attacks to keep HE passive up gaining the damage boost.

mb10

I mainly use my bow solo and do better than when im in a group what are you talking about?

The skill line is great for pve and more than fine for pvp

go away.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Let's not get a Snipe nerfed it literally half of the useful bow powers Poison Arrow being the other. Now Snipe is strong but cutting 50% damage that would put the base at 5-6k on average that's not "Sniping". Is the attack yes unless you have this thing called armor, roll dodge or a shield. Shields and rolling is the counters as you take no damage.

People with 25k health and at least 15k armor resistance don't die to Snipe. Nearly everyone runs with 64 points to magic or stamina, it's not my fault you have the bare minimum for health and resistance, and with the change to the CP Star that buffs Armor rating you can add 5k armor on to light, medium or heavy. So you can have 12-13k on a light Mage.

Don't get the bow nerfed again cause you kill glass canons fast I can fight a whole battle on my bow, and no not always a Twohanded on my off bar most times it's One Hand and Shield with Power Extraction for my damage buff on my bow bar if the get close then Magum Shot for range and keep up the fight. I have literally killed Dragon Knights and Templars cause they can't teleport and I just Magum Shot myself back over and over again from their gap closers.

reften

solo play in this game is so unbelievably easy it doesn't matter what you use.

And bows work fine in pvp.

I use a bow as my primary DPS in group dungeons (heavy shot / poison injection weave)

So...disagree.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

All that said Arrow Barrage and Bombard could use a slight damage increase. Magum shots needs a heavy damage increase like 50-60% it's the instead cast non DoT bow power so it's the spam power but it's just underpowered granted I have killed with it but I been running Bow and my main since Beta so I can compensate for Magnum Shots shortcomings.

DHale

I die to bow users a lot bombard is lethal. Bow is great if built correctly. Camo hunter flawless rally. Molten weapons or merciless resolve, etc. Get 5 marksman plus 4 Leki or shield breaker. Get a malestorm bow. Just watch the rage tells come in. On my wood elf nb I buff up and hit focus aim from stealth on ppl sieging keeps then hit a speed pot reposition entire Zergs will stop sieging to find me while ppl in the keep repair walls. I can two shot most ppl. Not a lot of ap though. If you have two ppl in TS doing it you can literally stop all enemy siege while they chase one the other can snipe those that don't chase or get off siege. I have had entire raid groups literally stop sieging when we did it. That is no Bueno. Use speed plus inviso pots as dark cloak makes a red poof that gives you away and you can have about 10 seconds to get away fast. Lastly If you have two players you can tab target a healer and hit 4 arrows in before they even know... always a insta kill. They won't chase you until the healer is rezzed.

borchan

For snipe add an detonation snare that explodes for 9000 damage.
Magnum shot should shoot a players head off and before they can respawn they must edit a new face.
Bombard should disable the enemy players controller or keyboard for 10 seconds

TheShadowScout

I like bow. I do not feel its underpowered... sure, there are some things I'd like to see for it, like maybe a bit more range on the snipe to make up for its slow projectile... but there's more to bow then just the sneak attack snipe. Volley/Arrow Barrage/Scorched Earth is a nifty support skill that can be useful in both boss battles and PvP siege fights. Arrow Spray/Acid Spray is neat when fighting groups, and the Bombard morph provides -just- the CC pure archers are looking for.

It is however true that in the open field, archers are at a bit of an disadvantage, since the melee fighters usually have a gap closer to come into melee range where they have the advantage.
Duh.
Working as intended... just check historical battles, archers live by attacking from range and die when attacked in melee.

If anything, a bow ought to outrange any gap closer skills, to give the archer some chance to do their damage from range... in that spirit, I would have loved it if they added an "half-damage range" to archers that exceeds their current "full damage range", but does only half damage to preserve balance... but hey, that's me.

kadar

Snipe should have it's dmg reduced by 50% fasten the traxel time and lower the cast time to 0.7 secs this will help the bow for sustained dps and less burst

If you want to make Bow worse then this is a good idea...Snipe would do horrendous damage, and you'd have to spam it to do anything at all? No thanks.

IMO, the bow kit is quite good, having a great deal of diversity and strengths that other weapon lines don't have (DoT, Excecute, Ranged Interrupt, AOE, AOE SNARE, "gap-opener", slow, high-single target tooltip, and arguably the best passive in the game for PVP).

Magnum shot should have this range increase to 28meters

Nahhhh, with the morph it would knock the other player out of even you're Snipe's range... 28 + 6 + 6, putting them 40m away.
Increase the Slow on Draining Shot to 70%, something more incapacitating. I think it's at like 40 or 40% atm.

Lynx7386

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Yep not asking for a buff just a simple redesign on how bow functions.

Bow right now is best used for group play, in solo play it's terrible because we lack a reliable cc skill, and a dps skill

To be honest I just want snipe and magnum shot to be changed

Snipe should have it's dmg reduced by 50% fasten the traxel time and lower the cast time to 0.7 secs this will help the bow for sustained dps and less burst

Magnum shot should have this range increase to 28meters,

Lastly of a bow ultimate was introduced it should be what snipe is right now.

This is a terrible idea.

Snipe is a burst damage skill. When was the last time you saw a military sniper using an M240 assault cannon? It isnt meant to be fast.

Sustained damage comes from damage over time effects available via poison arrow, volley, and acid spray. You combine those with snipe to get higher sustained damage without losing your burst.

Magnum shot being increased to 28 meters would make it far, far too good in pvp.

There are no weapon ultimates, so you're not likely to see one spontaneously added for just one weapon skill line. The current snipe ability is also too weak to be considered an ultimate.



Bow is fine. The only change I'd make is having magnum shot make your character leap/somersault backwards instead of just pushing you backwards, the current animation is so akward.

Anti_Virus

Typical Archers aren't close range fighters they attack from range where dmg and survivability is rewarded for perfect positioning, you can achieve perfect positioning in group play when you are in the back of a dungeon or with a large group in pvp but for solo play it's impossible you CANNOT have good positioning to set up your dmg due to unlimited gap closer spam in PVP and certain mobs (giants, trolls, flying mobs) are immune to roots and hard cc in PVE.

The change to snipe isn't really a nerf it will help with sustained dmg, since the recent change to hawkward eye light attack snipe will generate stacks for the 15% dmg boost in addition to animation canceling. Imagine this change like a ranged version of crushing shock, or Suprise attack.

The change to magnum shot is needed, most gap closers have a max range of 22m while magnum shot and it's morphs have a 10m range (LOL) I'll also allow for a reliable cc skill from range.

Anti_Virus

mb10 wrote: »

I mainly use my bow solo and do better than when im in a group what are you talking about?

The skill line is great for pve and more than fine for pvp

go away.

You gave no explanation for how you achieve this then you tell me to go away?

http://www.google.com/search?q=dual+wielding+cloud+armored+sun&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiSnJq7gvPLAhXCRiYKHeruDQoQ_AUIBygB&biw=412&bih=604#imgrc=bo24LhP1qnduIM:



Wtf dude?
Go troll somewhere else.

Anti_Virus

Lynx7386 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Yep not asking for a buff just a simple redesign on how bow functions.

Bow right now is best used for group play, in solo play it's terrible because we lack a reliable cc skill, and a dps skill

To be honest I just want snipe and magnum shot to be changed

Snipe should have it's dmg reduced by 50% fasten the traxel time and lower the cast time to 0.7 secs this will help the bow for sustained dps and less burst

Magnum shot should have this range increase to 28meters,

Lastly of a bow ultimate was introduced it should be what snipe is right now.

This is a terrible idea.

Snipe is a burst damage skill. When was the last time you saw a military sniper using an M240 assault cannon? It isnt meant to be fast.

Sustained damage comes from damage over time effects available via poison arrow, volley, and acid spray. You combine those with snipe to get higher sustained damage without losing your burst.

Magnum shot being increased to 28 meters would make it far, far too good in pvp.

There are no weapon ultimates, so you're not likely to see one spontaneously added for just one weapon skill line. The current snipe ability is also too weak to be considered an ultimate.



Bow is fine. The only change I'd make is having magnum shot make your character leap/somersault backwards instead of just pushing you backwards, the current animation is so akward.

Your reference to snipers would be correct, but can you dodge roll or shield stack a bullet? Further more do bullets take about 2 secs to hit their target from max range?

Xelrick

hmm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBhI1xnNOXM

Just image this for bows in ESO

vontariel

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Snipe is a burst damage skill. When was the last time you saw a military sniper using an M240 assault cannon? It isnt meant to be fast.

Sniper's bullet travel faster than sound. Target is dead before even shot is heard. Meanwhile in ESO snipe is arguably slowest projectile in game. In PvE slow speed is only annoying, real problem comes in PvP. It has SO LONG travel time, you can have 2 or even 3 in the air in same time. One dodge roll is enough to make them all miss in PvP.
Alternative is, I can have snipe, poison injection and light attack to hit target in same time, switch bars and hit with charge in same moment as second snipe connects.
That's simple bad skill design.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Sustained damage comes from damage over time effects available via poison arrow, volley, and acid spray. You combine those with snipe to get higher sustained damage without losing your burst.

For most archers DPS come from poison injection DoT, basic attacks and snipe. For stationary encounters DPS can and is often boost by volley (AoE DoT). And about 40-50% of DPS comes from snipe - even one missed snipe, is significant loss in DPS. In PvE you rarely miss. Not so much in PvP.
And because so much DMG comes from easily accessible DoTs, you can see reason why bow is often chosen as support/boost weapon.

And the weapon viability is best checked compared to other options. For single target DPS, and let's be honest, in PvE especially on end-game, DPS is most important thing, both DW (supported often by class skills) and 2H are much better choices concerning pure DPS. Don't get me even start with magicka because it's way ahead in other league.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Bow is fine. The only change I'd make is having magnum shot make your character leap/somersault backwards instead of just pushing you backwards, the current animation is so akward.

Paper is fine! (nerf stone!)
-Scissors

Most important startpoint to even trying to balance bow is normalising snipe projectile speed to be instant like other bow skills. It won't change DPS in long fights, but it would reduce stealth burst and smoothen dmg spikes in PvP.
From that point real number tweaking could start.
And trust me, even if bow Light attack and Heavy Attack damage would be buffed by ~20%, and snipe cast reduced by ~10-20%, bow still would be behind, because that's how big gap is.

And magnum shot is next to unfixable. This skill is only good on paper. Not only from point blank range is insufficient to be outside of melee, after 1st cast you give your enemy free CC immunity card. And because gap closers CC you and can be spammed infinitely main reason to use this skill (ie maintaining distance between you and target) is rendered null and void. And there is no good solution to fix this problem. Graying out charges? will make it too op against melee by simple spam. Increase dmg? Band-aid solution, and would make skill awkward anti-charge damage spam. it could be redesign as "tactical retreat jump (similar mechanic to bolt escape) with knocking out everyone from landing/jumping zone", but it would be different skill (but role will be maintained).

Anti_Virus

Xelrick wrote: »

hmm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBhI1xnNOXM

Just image this for bows in ESO

Man I can only hope for archery to be like this.

Anti_Virus

vontariel wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Snipe is a burst damage skill. When was the last time you saw a military sniper using an M240 assault cannon? It isnt meant to be fast.

Sniper's bullet travel faster than sound. Target is dead before even shot is heard. Meanwhile in ESO snipe is arguably slowest projectile in game. In PvE slow speed is only annoying, real problem comes in PvP. It has SO LONG travel time, you can have 2 or even 3 in the air in same time. One dodge roll is enough to make them all miss in PvP.
Alternative is, I can have snipe, poison injection and light attack to hit target in same time, switch bars and hit with charge in same moment as second snipe connects.
That's simple bad skill design.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Sustained damage comes from damage over time effects available via poison arrow, volley, and acid spray. You combine those with snipe to get higher sustained damage without losing your burst.

For most archers DPS come from poison injection DoT, basic attacks and snipe. For stationary encounters DPS can and is often boost by volley (AoE DoT). And about 40-50% of DPS comes from snipe - even one missed snipe, is significant loss in DPS. In PvE you rarely miss. Not so much in PvP.
And because so much DMG comes from easily accessible DoTs, you can see reason why bow is often chosen as support/boost weapon.

And the weapon viability is best checked compared to other options. For single target DPS, and let's be honest, in PvE especially on end-game, DPS is most important thing, both DW (supported often by class skills) and 2H are much better choices concerning pure DPS. Don't get me even start with magicka because it's way ahead in other league.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Bow is fine. The only change I'd make is having magnum shot make your character leap/somersault backwards instead of just pushing you backwards, the current animation is so akward.

Paper is fine! (nerf stone!)
-Scissors

Most important startpoint to even trying to balance bow is normalising snipe projectile speed to be instant like other bow skills. It won't change DPS in long fights, but it would reduce stealth burst and smoothen dmg spikes in PvP.
From that point real number tweaking could start.
And trust me, even if bow Light attack and Heavy Attack damage would be buffed by ~20%, and snipe cast reduced by ~10-20%, bow still would be behind, because that's how big gap is.

And magnum shot is next to unfixable. This skill is only good on paper. Not only from point blank range is insufficient to be outside of melee, after 1st cast you give your enemy free CC immunity card. And because gap closers CC you and can be spammed infinitely main reason to use this skill (ie maintaining distance between you and target) is rendered null and void. And there is no good solution to fix this problem. Graying out charges? will make it too op against melee by simple spam. Increase dmg? Band-aid solution, and would make skill awkward anti-charge damage spam. it could be redesign as "tactical retreat jump (similar mechanic to bolt escape) with knocking out everyone from landing/jumping zone", but it would be different skill (but role will be maintained).

Thank you archers really need a lot of love, most ppl don't understand how archers should function in games.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I take a change for Magum Shot should be you Knock you target 6m away and yourself, if target is CC immune then you are Knocked back 12m

GreenSoup2HoT

Increase Snipe travel time by 200%.

This would stop people from getting hit with multiple snipes before they knew what happen but would also lead to less snipes being dodged.

damtotb16_ESO

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Yep not asking for a buff just a simple redesign on how bow functions.

Bow right now is best used for group play, in solo play it's terrible because we lack a reliable cc skill, and a dps skill

To be honest I just want snipe and magnum shot to be changed

Snipe should have it's dmg reduced by 50% fasten the traxel time and lower the cast time to 0.7 secs this will help the bow for sustained dps and less burst

Magnum shot should have this range increase to 28meters,

Lastly of a bow ultimate was introduced it should be what snipe is right now.

You forgot to mention arrow barrage it's the strongest dot in the game, 40k in 8 sec plus has an aoe effect. I recommend adding it to cast bar.