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Time to make small combat a REAL THING
bitaken
✭✭✭✭✭
12 V 12 battlegrounds - A neutral Nikel / Bleakers type structure players try to capture and defend for 20 minutes. Sets up interesting dynamics of neutral guards to deal with - and capture the tower - while dealing with enemy group closing in on you - but someone needs to cap it to start the timer.
12V12V12 Three of the same as the above where the first faction to control 2 of the towers wins. The towers are initially manned by the Imperials and they are just like the existing guards of each faction.
Rewards are given out just like rewards of the worthy are currently - but winning guarantees a Purple - and a small chance at a gold.
The game cannot handle Cyrodil. The zone is too big - the combat is too bugged out. The lag is too horrific to play in.
You can have 24 man BG's possibly - with a different type of mechanic. Where each faction has 24 per side and three of the Nikel / Bleakers structures are manned by neutral guards (Imperials) and you have to capture and defend two of them to win.
You can have solo and group queues. You can have groups enter up to 1/2 of the population required to start a new game.
Cyrodil at this point is a bust.
Sorry - but it is. I truly do enjoy the combat system - and the way the game works - when it's small scale combat. However, in it's current state Cyrodil is self destructing. Both the servers/Devs and the players are causing this destruction. From the "One Color" map of Haderus and massive zergs from the "dominant color of the day" - to the massive lagfest of Trueflame the game is dying a much faster death than the Dev's are willing to admit. I have lost 5 of my returning players in the last week because the game just doesn't work. The next patch has to be something that changes the dynamics of the game from a PvP standpoint or you can kiss the revenue you receive from the PVP community - goodbye.
12V12V12 Three of the same as the above where the first faction to control 2 of the towers wins. The towers are initially manned by the Imperials and they are just like the existing guards of each faction.
Rewards are given out just like rewards of the worthy are currently - but winning guarantees a Purple - and a small chance at a gold.
The game cannot handle Cyrodil. The zone is too big - the combat is too bugged out. The lag is too horrific to play in.
You can have 24 man BG's possibly - with a different type of mechanic. Where each faction has 24 per side and three of the Nikel / Bleakers structures are manned by neutral guards (Imperials) and you have to capture and defend two of them to win.
You can have solo and group queues. You can have groups enter up to 1/2 of the population required to start a new game.
Cyrodil at this point is a bust.
Sorry - but it is. I truly do enjoy the combat system - and the way the game works - when it's small scale combat. However, in it's current state Cyrodil is self destructing. Both the servers/Devs and the players are causing this destruction. From the "One Color" map of Haderus and massive zergs from the "dominant color of the day" - to the massive lagfest of Trueflame the game is dying a much faster death than the Dev's are willing to admit. I have lost 5 of my returning players in the last week because the game just doesn't work. The next patch has to be something that changes the dynamics of the game from a PvP standpoint or you can kiss the revenue you receive from the PVP community - goodbye.
PvP Lead Officer for Einherjar
Member of Einherjar and associated guilds since 2001
A multi Gaming community of players.
Member of Einherjar and associated guilds since 2001
A multi Gaming community of players.
8
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MoeCoastie✭✭✭Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoW2 -
camknox✭✭✭MoeCoastie wrote: »Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoW
The problem is Cyrodil and the PVP in TESO is not casual. For some time now it has been the realm of large guilds and large groups. Anything less than 4 people will not survive for more than a few seconds.
You have veritable armies pouring from opposing factions (EP and AD for us) that seem to consist of the entire faction some days. While the opposing faction (DC) has small groups and they're all busy fighting. A solo person logs on and they aren't going to get picked up into a group. They most assuredly are not going to be getting any kills alone when everyone is running 500+ CP builds specially built for PVP ganking.
I joined 2x PVP guilds to be able to get some PVP action when I returned to the game after Orsinium and IC release. This has seen my AP balance increase but I am getting front row tickets to the destruction of the game I returned to. From the zergfest in Cyrodil to the same thing in the sewers. PVP is not a solo casual person's play area.
This then leads on to people not in America; for people outisde the US, who also play on the NA server (due mostly to the large difference in time to the EU also; I'm looking at you fellow Australians), we log into PVP at times when there is either an entire map a single colour and our faction offline or huge zergfests from every faction. For me that means DC and EP are battling at the Chalamo and AD are claiming the rest of the map because everyone else is busy fighting over a single keep.
I like TESO and I like PVP but when the combat hinges on someone having more CP (been in the game longer) and lower latency (in Australia for me that's no less than 300ms whereas people in the US report 100ms or lower latency) the difference between 100ms and 300ms is 4 attacks. That's instant death for me and it all appears to happen at the same time so I can't even react. I deal with that aspect by ensuring I'm in a group where I usually get some form of splash healing to keep me alive for the extra half a second it takes to display attacks on my end.
If you then move to Trueflame (lagsville) where the ping time for US people is reaching 300-400ms and I'm getting 900-2000ms pings it's stupid beyond a joke. ZOS needs to focus on either providing a level playing field, better encounters or getting rid of the horrendous server (not client) lag introduced back in 2015.1 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MoeCoastie wrote: »
No, it's not about horse simulator. It's the fact that there is zero reason to PvP in the wilderness, or in random towns that half the player base probably dont even know about. So many different terrain and places that could be used for minor objectives that would promote PvP outside the of keep circle.8 -
MoeCoastie✭✭✭MoeCoastie wrote: »Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoW
The problem is Cyrodil and the PVP in TESO is not casual. For some time now it has been the realm of large guilds and large groups. Anything less than 4 people will not survive for more than a few seconds.
You have veritable armies pouring from opposing factions (EP and AD for us) that seem to consist of the entire faction some days. While the opposing faction (DC) has small groups and they're all busy fighting. A solo person logs on and they aren't going to get picked up into a group. They most assuredly are not going to be getting any kills alone when everyone is running 500+ CP builds specially built for PVP ganking.
I joined 2x PVP guilds to be able to get some PVP action when I returned to the game after Orsinium and IC release. This has seen my AP balance increase but I am getting front row tickets to the destruction of the game I returned to. From the zergfest in Cyrodil to the same thing in the sewers. PVP is not a solo casual person's play area.
This then leads on to people not in America; for people outisde the US, who also play on the NA server (due mostly to the large difference in time to the EU also; I'm looking at you fellow Australians), we log into PVP at times when there is either an entire map a single colour and our faction offline or huge zergfests from every faction. For me that means DC and EP are battling at the Chalamo and AD are claiming the rest of the map because everyone else is busy fighting over a single keep.
I like TESO and I like PVP but when the combat hinges on someone having more CP (been in the game longer) and lower latency (in Australia for me that's no less than 300ms whereas people in the US report 100ms or lower latency) the difference between 100ms and 300ms is 4 attacks. That's instant death for me and it all appears to happen at the same time so I can't even react. I deal with that aspect by ensuring I'm in a group where I usually get some form of splash healing to keep me alive for the extra half a second it takes to display attacks on my end.
If you then move to Trueflame (lagsville) where the ping time for US people is reaching 300-400ms and I'm getting 900-2000ms pings it's stupid beyond a joke. ZOS needs to focus on either providing a level playing field, better encounters or getting rid of the horrendous server (not client) lag introduced back in 2015.
They have the non-cp campaign if your worried about CP. Solo is not casual. You know that! I dont know why you try to spin things to try and prove your point. Zerging (not organized groups) is casual by nature. Log on, join a group, spam a few buttons, feel like a winner while BSing in TS with your friends. FYI, there's an entire map...try using the other 90% of it (% derived from a previous poster in another thread). I can assure you, those large armies you speak of cant be everywhere at once.
BTW, I solo/zerg surf about 90%...I group about 8% and stragith zerg about 2%. When Im stoned, feeling social and not really wanting to be a "try-hard" I'll zerg it up. Being part of a larger group means you have more room for error. All this is generally speaking. Of course there are exceptions but I feel being part of a mindless zerg is very casual.4 -
kuro-dono✭✭✭✭Casual pvp is propably one of the best things i have experiened past 5 year. Azura star pc eu atleast is so full of it atm and its GREAT.
Aoe blobbers/ballerinas/wankers stay away from it.
And no, cyrodiil is not bust. Quite far from it.0 -
heystreethawk✭✭✭✭✭Casual pvp is propably one of the best things i have experiened past 5 year. Azura star pc eu atleast is so full of it atm and its GREAT.
Aoe blobbers/ballerinas/wankers stay away from it.
And no, cyrodiil is not bust. Quite far from it.
???
On NA server, ballerinas are the most casual of them allGM of Fantasia
I heard those symphonies come quick1 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Won't survive 4 seconds? C'mon man. I'm a lone wolf 70% of the time and I've had lives last an hour. You just got to be smart and equip a few different ways to get out of trouble. Keep some invisibilty potions on hand, equip charging manuevers, or even slot mist form if you're a vampire. I have all 3 slotted on my backup bar along with a heal.
On top of that my guy wears all light armor and I still survive. Sure, sometimes you'll get run over by 25 guys, it happens. But you can get away from Zergs way more often than you're saying is impossible.
On a side note did you know that switching to mist form when meteor or Proxi Det is locked onto you allows you to midigate 75% of its damage?0 -
kuro-dono✭✭✭✭heystreethawk wrote: »Casual pvp is propably one of the best things i have experiened past 5 year. Azura star pc eu atleast is so full of it atm and its GREAT.
Aoe blobbers/ballerinas/wankers stay away from it.
And no, cyrodiil is not bust. Quite far from it.
???
On NA server, ballerinas are the most casual of them all
you mean the 20-30 ppl who all stacked and running together spamming pretty much same time whole time steel tornado are casuals? sounds quite organized to me!
Casuals> those folks ppl complain about zerging from keep to keep sieging happily, killing and dying all the time.1 -
failkiwib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭..sorry for going off topic, what is a ballarina? O.o in eso I mean ...Edited by failkiwib16_ESO on March 26, 2016 2:36PM0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
What different playstiles? On PS4 EU only dps stack, nothing more, with TG changes game can be renamed to something like "Zerg Of Sorcs: And two templars"MoeCoastie wrote: »Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoWEdited by Sugaroverdose on March 26, 2016 4:44PM0 -
MoeCoastie✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
What different playstiles? On PS4 EU only dps stack, nothing more, with TG changes game can be renamed to something like "Zerg Of Sorcs: And two templars"MoeCoastie wrote: »Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoW
I run solo most of the time. During this time I afk a ton, take a lot of medication breaks, and do a ton of lurking and scouting. The AP doesnt flow as fast, I use a few mobility abilities that arent standard with my build, and all my abilities are single target. Also, unless im in combat, im almost always in stealth patrolling transit routes
When my only 2 friends in the entire game are logged on, we 3man. I remove the mobility abilities swap out an ulti and a couple single target abilities, maybe even throw on vigor. Now im accountable to my other 2 group members so I tend to YOLO a lot instead of my usual run and hide. In this group, we're more objective oriented and less patrolling transit route. We have ok healing and more aoe and CC which allows us to hold our ground a little.
In a zerg I swap out weapons for dual wield spamnado, slot barrier and basically stick on crown spamming a couple abilites while I yell for my daughter to get my hotpocket from the micro. Without a /stick or /follow command, the days of afk zerging are over.
Im sure others have different playstyles, im just really simple and broad with mine. My only real experience with instanced pvp was rift and a little in warhammer. They are usually timed and from my experience faster paced with little wiggle room for diversity in playstyles.0 -
Mumyo✭✭✭✭✭MoeCoastie wrote: »Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoW
might be nice but the lag makes it a joke and trying to fix it for 2 years is also a joke.
CYRODIL doesn'T work and never will, at least not in this game.1 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
So what? You didn't say anything about build diversity or playstile, spamnado and ganking with single target is most popular stamina "playstile"(which isn't playstile it's couple of abilities spammed, i bet your "single target playstile" is WB spam).MoeCoastie wrote: »Sugaroverdose wrote: »
What different playstiles? On PS4 EU only dps stack, nothing more, with TG changes game can be renamed to something like "Zerg Of Sorcs: And two templars"MoeCoastie wrote: »Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoW
I run solo most of the time. During this time I afk a ton, take a lot of medication breaks, and do a ton of lurking and scouting. The AP doesnt flow as fast, I use a few mobility abilities that arent standard with my build, and all my abilities are single target. Also, unless im in combat, im almost always in stealth patrolling transit routes
When my only 2 friends in the entire game are logged on, we 3man. I remove the mobility abilities swap out an ulti and a couple single target abilities, maybe even throw on vigor. Now im accountable to my other 2 group members so I tend to YOLO a lot instead of my usual run and hide. In this group, we're more objective oriented and less patrolling transit route. We have ok healing and more aoe and CC which allows us to hold our ground a little.
In a zerg I swap out weapons for dual wield spamnado, slot barrier and basically stick on crown spamming a couple abilites while I yell for my daughter to get my hotpocket from the micro. Without a /stick or /follow command, the days of afk zerging are over.
Im sure others have different playstyles, im just really simple and broad with mine. My only real experience with instanced pvp was rift and a little in warhammer. They are usually timed and from my experience faster paced with little wiggle room for diversity in playstyles.
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heystreethawk✭✭✭✭✭heystreethawk wrote: »Casual pvp is propably one of the best things i have experiened past 5 year. Azura star pc eu atleast is so full of it atm and its GREAT.
Aoe blobbers/ballerinas/wankers stay away from it.
And no, cyrodiil is not bust. Quite far from it.
???
On NA server, ballerinas are the most casual of them all
you mean the 20-30 ppl who all stacked and running together spamming pretty much same time whole time steel tornado are casuals? sounds quite organized to me!
Casuals> those folks ppl complain about zerging from keep to keep sieging happily, killing and dying all the time.
Ahh, I think it means a different thing over here. Nm.GM of Fantasia
I heard those symphonies come quick0 -
MoeCoastie✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
So what? You didn't say anything about build diversity or playstile, spamnado and ganking with single target is most popular stamina "playstile"(which isn't playstile it's couple of abilities spammed, i bet your "single target playstile" is WB spam).MoeCoastie wrote: »Sugaroverdose wrote: »
What different playstiles? On PS4 EU only dps stack, nothing more, with TG changes game can be renamed to something like "Zerg Of Sorcs: And two templars"MoeCoastie wrote: »Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoW
I run solo most of the time. During this time I afk a ton, take a lot of medication breaks, and do a ton of lurking and scouting. The AP doesnt flow as fast, I use a few mobility abilities that arent standard with my build, and all my abilities are single target. Also, unless im in combat, im almost always in stealth patrolling transit routes
When my only 2 friends in the entire game are logged on, we 3man. I remove the mobility abilities swap out an ulti and a couple single target abilities, maybe even throw on vigor. Now im accountable to my other 2 group members so I tend to YOLO a lot instead of my usual run and hide. In this group, we're more objective oriented and less patrolling transit route. We have ok healing and more aoe and CC which allows us to hold our ground a little.
In a zerg I swap out weapons for dual wield spamnado, slot barrier and basically stick on crown spamming a couple abilites while I yell for my daughter to get my hotpocket from the micro. Without a /stick or /follow command, the days of afk zerging are over.
Im sure others have different playstyles, im just really simple and broad with mine. My only real experience with instanced pvp was rift and a little in warhammer. They are usually timed and from my experience faster paced with little wiggle room for diversity in playstyles.
no sir, no WB on my bar.
There is a difference between build and playstyle. A build is created from a playstyle...not the other way around (unless you just copy everyone else's build and then learn the way THEY play it). Soak in the difference for a min. BUILD DIVERSITY does not equal PLAYSTYLE. again, very broadly...playstyles are labels like "solo" "small-man" and "zerging." There are about 2-3 decent builds per class for every playstyle depending on your role. YOu speak of diversity yet you propose something that alost has no diversity. DO you even value diversity or did you think that was a clever rebuttal to my post? Your initial post states nothing of diversity but instead wants to hardcode set group numbers, set times, set maps, set encounters...NO DIVERSITY.
Edited by MoeCoastie on March 26, 2016 11:37PM0 -
ub17_ESO✭✭✭I personally like the idea of a lopsided match-up if keeps or structure defense will be in play. I love the few vs the many...those scenarios.
Something with reason of course, 8v12, 5v8 ,16v24.
Cheers1 -
zZzleepyhead✭✭✭Your cause is just and sincere, but know this..
nobody cares
and nobody listens
edit: lets keep it civil guysEdited by zZzleepyhead on March 27, 2016 6:27AM0 -
PeggymoeXD✭✭✭✭MoeCoastie wrote: »Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoW
You must be new.Kitty DK
Vanguärd
Învictus
Sun's Death
EPHS
- Peggy Moe - Look Mom No Emp Buff - Chalman - Linda the Zookeeper -5 -
MoeCoastie✭✭✭PeggymoeXD wrote: »MoeCoastie wrote: »Cyrodiil is awesome. So many different playstyles can exist within one area. To me, that's unique and should be valued. Adding arenas would just create a different game and this "meta" (as you guys like to call it) will be necessity rather than an option.
Keep PvP casual. Hardcore pvpers can go play BDO or WoW
You must be new.
been here longer than you. And Im experienced with this type of PvP even before ESO. It is exactly this type of PvP ive been searching years for.Edited by MoeCoastie on March 27, 2016 8:24AM0 -
Daladier✭✭They need to make cyrodiil strictly pvp and have no ove content and get rid of all the scenery. With all the delves and cities that are in cyrodiil with all the mobs outside and inside the delves along with locked populations for all 3 alliances, it's no wonder why there is lag.0
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jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You are in luck OP. PVP arenas and battlegrounds are in active development.1 -
bitaken✭✭✭✭✭I am surprised no one commented on the effect someplace like this would have on Cyrodil for the masses.
1) Reduce population in Cyrodil. Reduce Lag in Cyrodil.
2) Create a place for players to go when fewer are online - and instead of PvDooring a map one color - actually get fair and balanced PvP.
3) Places Cyrodil as a "Zerg Busting" locale.
4) Also let's the top 12 and 24 mans duke it out in a place to sack up and show who is the best - and create tactics for a different type of play style.
PvP Lead Officer for Einherjar
Member of Einherjar and associated guilds since 2001
A multi Gaming community of players.0 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
"No ETA."jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »You are in luck OP. PVP arenas and battlegrounds are in active development.
0 -
Mrs_Quietus✭✭✭heystreethawk wrote: »heystreethawk wrote: »Casual pvp is propably one of the best things i have experiened past 5 year. Azura star pc eu atleast is so full of it atm and its GREAT.
Aoe blobbers/ballerinas/wankers stay away from it.
And no, cyrodiil is not bust. Quite far from it.
???
On NA server, ballerinas are the most casual of them all
you mean the 20-30 ppl who all stacked and running together spamming pretty much same time whole time steel tornado are casuals? sounds quite organized to me!
Casuals> those folks ppl complain about zerging from keep to keep sieging happily, killing and dying all the time.
Ahh, I think it means a different thing over here. Nm.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH BALLERINAS
(pulls up tutu)Aldmeri Dominion HeisenZerg & Fantasia
Templar *Lyric Quietus*
Night Blade *E'ryyn Quietus*
Sorcerer *Kira Quietus*
Daggerfall Covenant K Hole GM
Templar Healer *Lyryc*
Templar DPS *Lyrikida*
Night Blade *Lyric Amaryllis*
DragonKnight *Lyric Enya*
#bringbackblindingflashes
#AwaitingCU
Youtube Channel:
*Mr. & Mrs. Quietus*
https://youtube.com/channel/UC-P7vLjk9QC8q98rWiSY-Rg1 -
heystreethawk✭✭✭✭✭Mrs_Quietus wrote: »heystreethawk wrote: »heystreethawk wrote: »Casual pvp is propably one of the best things i have experiened past 5 year. Azura star pc eu atleast is so full of it atm and its GREAT.
Aoe blobbers/ballerinas/wankers stay away from it.
And no, cyrodiil is not bust. Quite far from it.
???
On NA server, ballerinas are the most casual of them all
you mean the 20-30 ppl who all stacked and running together spamming pretty much same time whole time steel tornado are casuals? sounds quite organized to me!
Casuals> those folks ppl complain about zerging from keep to keep sieging happily, killing and dying all the time.
Ahh, I think it means a different thing over here. Nm.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH BALLERINAS
(pulls up tutu)
TOO PRECISE IN THEIR MOVEMENTS; their rigidity of form is a surrender to predetermination. Plié-ing at designated times = wheelhouse of the casualGM of Fantasia
I heard those symphonies come quick0 -
MoeCoastie✭✭✭I am surprised no one commented on the effect someplace like this would have on Cyrodil for the masses.
1) Reduce population in Cyrodil. Reduce Lag in Cyrodil.
2) Create a place for players to go when fewer are online - and instead of PvDooring a map one color - actually get fair and balanced PvP.
3) Places Cyrodil as a "Zerg Busting" locale.
4) Also let's the top 12 and 24 mans duke it out in a place to sack up and show who is the best - and create tactics for a different type of play style.
My theory:
It will completely drain Cyrodil of most of its population for 2 reasons.
1. Instant gratification. The entire purpose behind instanced PvP is to provide combat on demand. Set time, fewer objectives, smaller map, and less variables. IMO, this alone will kill Cyrodil.
2. Efficiency. Its the same dynamic as grinding vs questing. It will always be more efficient to grind for XP than it is to quest. For the same reason the masses flock to the most crowded campaign despite the lag is because of the AP/Hr and the progression that comes along with it.
I truly hope the introduction of arenas doesnt kill the niche appeal of Cyrodil because there arent many other options out there for me. Either way, I'll enjoy the ride while it lasts.0 -
zZzleepyhead✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »You are in luck OP. PVP arenas and battlegrounds are in active development.
so is colonizing Mars. Who wants to place some bets?Edited by zZzleepyhead on March 27, 2016 8:55PM2 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭zZzleepyhead wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »You are in luck OP. PVP arenas and battlegrounds are in active development.
so is colonizing Mars. Who wants to place some bets?
Well they did say finally they are coming for sure. They said they are developing them. I can only take them at their word.0