Need for change in Dual Wield skill line

GeorgeBlack

Dual wield skill Line.

I like dual wielding warriors. I was going to play a nightblade but that class is all black and red shadows all over my character and my weapons, so I went for a DK.
Little did I know that once I would wield two blades in my hands, I would not be able to watch my character cut down anything effectively, BOTH in PvP AND PvE equally. I hope that this section will bring the dual wield that this great game deserves.
I will include damage amounts at my current 4,434 Weapon DMG where a comparison is needed.


Structure as follows:

A)Skill description, 1)morhph, 2)second moprh
B)Comparison to other relevant skills
C)Critisism after analysis
D)Suggestion



Twin Slashes.

a) Slice twice dealing dmg and inflicting DoT.1)+dmg +slow. 2)heals for DoT duration/dmg

b)Lowest initial dmg from all other stamina weapons. Less effective than Unstable Flames(DK). No particular reason to use after all. I do not see it useful to a stamina SOrc or a stamina NB or a stamina Temp or a Stamina DK

c)Any DOT skill(especially this weak skill) is not useful if not used by a build that is made for prolonged encounters. This skill line is not made for tanks(I got 30k HP in Cyro and high defence) so the application of 2k dmg and 9k DOT is not very useful since I don't have a shield to block with and avoid dmg, while my enemy is hurt by the DoT. I also don't have any barriers since I am a stamina char and I use a STAMINA SKILL LINE. How do I survive while my enemy is hurt? Unless I am an invisible NB. But then again NBs don't have to wait for such a weak skill to do get the job done.

d)Since it is casted instantly a serious increase of dmg would be a must to help find this skill a place in this game. The stamina cost should match it's dmg.

**Heal over time covers my character in colours like many other skills like momemtum cloak obsidian shard, dragon blood and such. It is not very aesthetic in my opinion. I wanna be able to see the colours of my armor and the face of my character. Some skills could do without those special effects.**


Hidden Blade

a)Deals ranged DMG+ 10sec Major Brutality. 1)Hits 3 targets 2)+DMG + range

b)Least effective Gap Closer.(Maybe dual wield does not need a gap closer in the name of diversity). 10 seconds of Major Brutality for a non tank build means that u have to re apply very often, while u have to break free from a cc and roll from grounding effects and maybe apply ur own cc and heal in order not to die. There is no time to deal damage so that u can get the enemy on the defensive.

c)This skill deals a very good amount of dmg. One could say that it is the most effective dmg dealing skill from this line in PvP but in a game where everybody can use a staff and there is even a Bow Skill line there is no reason for the mighty dual wielder to be force to use this skill in order to deal some dmg. This skill line is supposed to be about characters that love closed combat and intense fights, not throwing knives and stand next to all the other magika builds. What is this? Call of Duty?

d)In order to address all these problems of this skill I suggest the following
Reduce damage(mb cost) in order for dual wielders to resort to other skills for true dmg. No more ranged attacks needed.
Either Increase Major Brutality to 30 seconds or
Make this skill cause DoT and give Major Brutality Buff to another skill. If TWIN SLASHES are remodelled to the ideas I posted above, a 10 second Major Brutality would work well with a skill that is used often to deal true damage.




Flurry

a)Hit a target with 6 consecutive strikes for 5x1.1k and lastly deal 3.3k 1)+dmg per hit 2)chance to offset a targets balance.

b)strongest skill for single target attacks. A stamina Templar though would not use this skill but instead he would use the spear which heals him and sets his enemy off balance. A NB would use his single target attack for instant dmg or any of his other skills before resulting to any of the dual wield skills for damage no doubt. A sorce does not use stamina as much and if he did he would not use Dual Wield for attacking. A stamina DK like myself would love this skill if he was using Dual Wield. However..

c)In PvP and PvE this is my main damaging skill since I am a Dual Wielding Stamina DK. As I explained above no other class has any use for it even though it deals the highest maybe amount of dmg on a single target when the target is sitting there to get hit buy it. This skill deals 1.1k dmg per hit for 5 hits and then it deals 3.3k. An enemy player can easily avoid or block or disable me when I attempt to hit him. As a result he will not take most of the first 5 hits and will definitely avoid my last hit. One more thing is the waving attacks which everybody has learn to do. While I use Flurry I am not able to wave light attacks so my enemy is saved from this extra dmg. The continuous attacking is cancelled(without my stamina being refunded of course) should I move during Flurry.

d)This skill if unchanged is useless for PvP no doubt. Nobody will take on the damage unless they are disabled and have no more stamina left to go anywhere. I don't see how that would be possible thought for a stamina dual wielder to manage. Should however the ideas for the other skills become a reality Flurry would become the least effective skill in the line, and I would gladly keep using it for PvE only.



Steel Tornado

For steel Tornado I do not have move to say because it is a well designed skill. However given the current weakness of the skill line it could be improved and match the Two Handed Executioner Power since the current up to 100% dmg increase towards weakened targets means that you need to lower the target. Executioner is hands down the winner in this case and everybody would use over Steele Tornado. Yet again if the Dual Wield Line improves maybe there is no need for it to exist. Maybe a 2handed sword fits better the image of executions and we can leave it at that.


Blade Cloak

I don't use blade cloak because it' makes my character white as a ghost and I don't like it as much. I believe that those colours should only be for class skills in order to bring out their special characteristic just like a NB is a shadow and DK uses draconic powers. Templars are blessed and Sorcerers are using magic. As a DK I don't want to look like a ghost and I really dislike wholesome colouring of the characters for the whole duration of a skill.

As for it's functionality yet again it is the barrier with the less duration time, meaning that u have to re apply. When u see sorcerers with class survivability skills and barrier with higher duration, NBs Templars and DKs it makes you think that as a DPS with dual wield, you don't have time to apply a skill all the time. Why not then Increase Blade Cloaks duration time.



Passives

All stamina classes use Dual Wield as an AOE and buff bar for their Class Line buffs. I can only see NB using dual wield for more than that and that is the passives of this skill line in conjunction with their stamina Class Lines.

if I could change anything about dual Wield it would be to give a better chance at Sword passive. Critical Armor Penetration are hands down the winners. What remainds is the DoT effect and the lame Sword passive. How about we through in the mix stamina regen or cost reduction (or maybe both and get rid of DoT Axes) and replace the Sword passive. Any more ideas for weapon style passives?

I will copy past this post in a couple of Forum Categories as I believe that it is important. Should moderators that happen to read this want to delete a few and more it to the appropriate section, please inform the game developers of the need for a change in Dual Wield Skill line.

SeptimusDova

this is a nice constructive post
+1

dsalter

OP doesnt realise how painful bleeds are this update. only thing DW REEALY needs atm is a stronger direct hit, i can see rending being able to fill this gap by lowering dot damage by 20% and increasing direct damage by 30% so that it's a semi decent stam spam ability with a linger affect

TheShadowScout

I have a stamina NB, and I gotta say, I use the healing from my twin dagger attack bleeds a lot to get a constant little survivability, something stamina NBs are distinctively lacking. Still find it a little underwhelming of course, but nothing I cannot live with...

DW has no gap closer by itself, I always thought because it is more meant as a "sneak up and lead with a backstab heavy attack" kind of skill line... thus the thrown dagger from hidden blade and its morphs is not to be seen as such, but rather as an ranged option to reply to opponents who draw back to use ranged attacks. Perhaps not as effective as a gap closer... but hey, three of the four classes have gap closers of their own in their class skills, so who cares?

Flurry... is nice for PvE. I hardly ever use it tough, since it is not that good for a mobile gamestyle, and with my NB, I like to move around... (besides, it IS nowhere near what templars get with their stab-heal-pushback jabs, the dirty rotten bast... uhm... )

Blade cloak... eh. Personally i dislike that one, and preferred my sparks, but I guess things change. Not like sparks were all that effective either.

Tavore1138

The twin slashes morphs are also handy for PvE dps builds where being able to apply as many dots as possible is useful, as this is the only dot DW line has it is useful - balancing can not always be based solely on PvP usefulness. If they ever properly fix the way axe bleeds work then this plus axe bleed could be pretty effective in PvP anyway.

Flying blade is actually a very useful skill too IMO - one of my top killing blow skills and a great one to get those streaking sorcs as they try to get away from melee range. Not everyone carries a bow or a stick in PvP (or PvE) so having something ranged in that line makes it a little different from two handed or sword and board.... and aesthetically I like the idea of the thrown knife in this line.

Blade Cloak is the one skill that I rarely find a spot for on my bar - in PvP the 20% AOE reduction sounds nice in theory but the cost is not insignificant and when you have 20+ people rushing at you with proxy det 20% is not going to save you, best to use that stamina for roll dodging or sprinting out of the mess before you get wiped. The speed morph is meh and the blade morph is obsolete the minute you open flying blade. It should not be the buffing skill - I'd rather get the damage back that got taken off it.

Personally I miss Sparks in the number 4 slot but it was a bit limited too - not sure what could go in here but basically either a decent usable defensive skill, a buffing skill or a single target execution so we're not all being pushed to slot the two handed line to fill in these blanks.

Steel_Brightblade

If flurry worked as described, 6 hits and not a dot I would use it.

Destruent

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Twin Slashes.

a) Slice twice dealing dmg and inflicting DoT.1)+dmg +slow. 2)heals for DoT duration/dmg

b)Lowest initial dmg from all other stamina weapons. Less effective than Unstable Flames(DK). No particular reason to use after all. I do not see it useful to a stamina SOrc or a stamina NB or a stamina Temp or a Stamina DK

c)Any DOT skill(especially this weak skill) is not useful if not used by a build that is made for prolonged encounters. This skill line is not made for tanks(I got 30k HP in Cyro and high defence) so the application of 2k dmg and 9k DOT is not very useful since I don't have a shield to block with and avoid dmg, while my enemy is hurt by the DoT. I also don't have any barriers since I am a stamina char and I use a STAMINA SKILL LINE. How do I survive while my enemy is hurt? Unless I am an invisible NB. But then again NBs don't have to wait for such a weak skill to do get the job done.

d)Since it is casted instantly a serious increase of dmg would be a must to help find this skill a place in this game. The stamina cost should match it's dmg.

**Heal over time covers my character in colours like many other skills like momemtum cloak obsidian shard, dragon blood and such. It is not very aesthetic in my opinion. I wanna be able to see the colours of my armor and the face of my character. Some skills could do without those special effects.**
.

Twin Slashes is the 3rd strongest Stamina-DoT ingame (only unstable flame and scorched earth are stronger) and is widely used in ALL PvE-Stamina-DPS-builds. Nothing else to say here.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Hidden Blade

a)Deals ranged DMG+ 10sec Major Brutality. 1)Hits 3 targets 2)+DMG + range

b)Least effective Gap Closer.(Maybe dual wield does not need a gap closer in the name of diversity). 10 seconds of Major Brutality for a non tank build means that u have to re apply very often, while u have to break free from a cc and roll from grounding effects and maybe apply ur own cc and heal in order not to die. There is no time to deal damage so that u can get the enemy on the defensive.

c)This skill deals a very good amount of dmg. One could say that it is the most effective dmg dealing skill from this line in PvP but in a game where everybody can use a staff and there is even a Bow Skill line there is no reason for the mighty dual wielder to be force to use this skill in order to deal some dmg. This skill line is supposed to be about characters that love closed combat and intense fights, not throwing knives and stand next to all the other magika builds. What is this? Call of Duty?

d)In order to address all these problems of this skill I suggest the following
Reduce damage(mb cost) in order for dual wielders to resort to other skills for true dmg. No more ranged attacks needed.
Either Increase Major Brutality to 30 seconds or
Make this skill cause DoT and give Major Brutality Buff to another skill. If TWIN SLASHES are remodelled to the ideas I posted above, a 10 second Major Brutality would work well with a skill that is used often to deal true damage.

It's not meant to be a gap closer, it's more a ranged option and snare. Also the dmg is not that bad. Sadly they lowered the dmg when ZOS introduced major brutality to this skill.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Flurry

a)Hit a target with 6 consecutive strikes for 5x1.1k and lastly deal 3.3k 1)+dmg per hit 2)chance to offset a targets balance.

b)strongest skill for single target attacks. A stamina Templar though would not use this skill but instead he would use the spear which heals him and sets his enemy off balance. A NB would use his single target attack for instant dmg or any of his other skills before resulting to any of the dual wield skills for damage no doubt. A sorce does not use stamina as much and if he did he would not use Dual Wield for attacking. A stamina DK like myself would love this skill if he was using Dual Wield. However..

c)In PvP and PvE this is my main damaging skill since I am a Dual Wielding Stamina DK. As I explained above no other class has any use for it even though it deals the highest maybe amount of dmg on a single target when the target is sitting there to get hit buy it. This skill deals 1.1k dmg per hit for 5 hits and then it deals 3.3k. An enemy player can easily avoid or block or disable me when I attempt to hit him. As a result he will not take most of the first 5 hits and will definitely avoid my last hit. One more thing is the waving attacks which everybody has learn to do. While I use Flurry I am not able to wave light attacks so my enemy is saved from this extra dmg. The continuous attacking is cancelled(without my stamina being refunded of course) should I move during Flurry.

d)This skill if unchanged is useless for PvP no doubt. Nobody will take on the damage unless they are disabled and have no more stamina left to go anywhere. I don't see how that would be possible thought for a stamina dual wielder to manage. Should however the ideas for the other skills become a reality Flurry would become the least effective skill in the line, and I would gladly keep using it for PvE only.

First: We are talking about stamina, so Templars don't have a selfhealing-dps-ability (this morph is magicka-based), but sure...they would use biting jabs. PvE-Stamsorcs use DW/Flurry, bc it's stronger than twohander/wrecking blow. Same for Stam-DKs in PvE. You are also able to light or even heavy attack-weave flurry (this is possible with every skill ingame). I highly recommend checking out alcast's youtube-channel. He made some pretty good videos about it.

Overall you are underestimating the skilline a lot. It is amazing in PvE (strong DoT, good spam ability, strogest AoE) and hast great passives (more crit with daggers, execute for all skills, more weapon damage) and is therefore widely used. In pvp it's mostly used by nightblades and templars bc they have class abilitys to use and they only need the incresed weapon damage. Stamsorcs and stam-DKs mainly use S/B or twohander, but it's not that bad, if some classses use different skilllines, isn't it?

Btw...you said you run with 30k HP and high defenses and also complain about the lack of dmg...ehm...rly?

ZOS_MollyH

Greetungs,

Since this is a mechanics and skills topic and this was double posted, we're going to request that any continued discussion please be moved to the other thread.