Improve Dual Wield for more PvP stamina options

GeorgeBlack

Dual wield skill Line.

I like dual wielding warriors. I was going to play a nightblade but that class is all black and red shadows all over my character and my weapons, so I went for a DK.
Little did I know that once I would wield two blades in my hands, I would not be able to watch my character cut down anything effectively, during PVP. I hope that this section will bring the dual wield that this great game deserves.
I will include damage amounts at my current 4,434 Weapon DMG where a comparison is needed.


Structure as follows:

A)Skill description, 1)morhph, 2)second moprh
B)Comparison to other relevant skills
C)Critisism after analysis
D)Suggestion



Twin Slashes.

a) Slice twice dealing dmg and inflicting DoT.1)+dmg +slow. 2)heals for DoT duration/dmg

b)Lowest initial dmg from all other stamina weapons. Less effective than Unstable Flames(DK). No particular reason to use after all. I do not see it useful to a stamina SOrc or a stamina NB(faster ways to kill) or a stamina Temp(spam spear for dmg) or a Stamina DK

c)Any DOT skill(especially this weak skill) is not useful if not used by a build that is made for prolonged encounters. This skill line is not made for tanks(I got 30k HP in Cyro and high defence) so the application of 2k dmg and 9k DOT is not very useful since I don't have a shield to block with and avoid dmg, while my enemy is hurt by the DoT. I also don't have any barriers since I am a stamina char and I use a STAMINA SKILL LINE. How do I survive while my enemy is hurt? Unless I am an invisible NB. But then again NBs don't have to wait for such a weak skill to do get the job done.

d)Since it is casted instantly a serious increase of dmg would be a must to help find this skill a place in this game. The stamina cost should match it's dmg.

**Heal over time covers my character in colours like many other skills: momemtum, cloak, obsidian shard, dragon blood and such. It is not very aesthetic in my opinion. I wanna be able to see the colours of my armor and the face of my character. Some skills could do without those special effects.**


Hidden Blade

a)Deals ranged DMG+ 10sec Major Brutality. 1)Hits 3 targets 2)+DMG + range

b)10 seconds of Major Brutality for a non tank build means that u have to re apply very often, while u have to break free from a cc and roll from grounding effects and maybe apply ur own cc and heal in order not to die. There is no time to deal damage so that u can get the enemy on the defensive.

c)This skill deals a very good amount of dmg. One could say that it is the most effective dmg dealing skill from this line in PvP but in a game where everybody can use a staff and there is even a Bow Skill line there is no reason for the mighty dual wielder to be force to use this skill in order to deal some dmg. This skill line is supposed to be about characters that love closed combat and intense fights, not throwing knives and stand next to all the other magika builds. What is this? Call of Duty?

d)In order to address all these problems of this skill I suggest the following
Reduce damage(mb cost) in order for dual wielders to resort to other skills for true dmg. No more ranged attacks needed.
Either Increase Major Brutality to 30 seconds or
Make this skill cause DoT and give Major Brutality Buff to another skill. If TWIN SLASHES are remodelled to the ideas I posted above, a 10 second Major Brutality would work well with a skill that is used often to deal true damage.




Flurry

a)Hit a target with 6 consecutive strikes for 5x1.1k and lastly deal 3.3k 1)+dmg per hit 2)chance to offset a targets balance.

b)strongest skill for single target attacks. A stamina Templar though would not use this skill but instead he would use the spear which heals him and sets his enemy off balance. A NB would use his single target attack for instant dmg or any of his other skills before resulting to any of the dual wield skills for damage no doubt. A sorce does not use stamina as much and if he did he would not use Dual Wield for attacking. A stamina DK like myself would love this skill if he was using Dual Wield. However..

c)In PvP and PvE this is my main damaging skill since I am a Dual Wielding Stamina DK. As I explained above no other class has any use for it even though it deals the highest maybe amount of dmg on a single target when the target is sitting there to get hit buy it. This skill deals 1.1k dmg per hit for 5 hits and then it deals 3.3k. An enemy player can easily avoid or block or disable me when I attempt to hit him. As a result he will not take most of the first 5 hits and will definitely avoid my last hit. One more thing is the waving attacks which everybody has learn to do. While I use Flurry I am not able to wave light attacks so my enemy is saved from this extra dmg. The continuous attacking is cancelled(without my stamina being refunded of course) should I move during Flurry.

d)This skill if unchanged is useless for PvP no doubt. Nobody will take on the damage unless they are disabled and have no more stamina left to go anywhere. I don't see how that would be possible thought for a stamina dual wielder to manage. Should however the ideas for the other skills become a reality Flurry would become the least effective skill in the line, and I would gladly keep using it for PvE only.



Steel Tornado

For steel Tornado I do not have move to say because it is a well designed skill. However given the current weakness of the skill line it could be improved and match the Two Handed Executioner Power since the current up to 100% dmg increase towards weakened targets means that you need to lower the target. Executioner is hands down the winner in this case and everybody would use over Steele Tornado. Yet again if the Dual Wield Line improves maybe there is no need for it to exist. Maybe a 2handed sword fits better the image of executions and we can leave it at that.


Blade Cloak

I don't use blade cloak because it' makes my character white as a ghost and I don't like it as much. I believe that those colours should only be for class skills in order to bring out their special characteristic just like a NB is a shadow and DK uses draconic powers. Templars are blessed and Sorcerers are using magic. As a DK I don't want to look like a ghost and I really dislike wholesome colouring of the characters for the whole duration of a skill.

As for it's functionality yet again it is the barrier with the less duration time, meaning that u have to re apply. When u see sorcerers with class survivability skills and barrier with higher duration, NBs Templars and DKs it makes you think that as a DPS with dual wield, you don't have time to apply a skill all the time. Why not then Increase Blade Cloaks duration time.



Passives

All stamina classes use Dual Wield as an AOE and buff bar for their Class Line buffs. I can only see NB using dual wield for more than that and that is the passives of this skill line in conjunction with their stamina Class Lines.

if I could change anything about dual Wield it would be to give a better chance at Sword passive. Critical Armor Penetration are hands down the winners. What remainds is the DoT effect and the lame Sword passive. How about we through in the mix stamina regen or cost reduction (or maybe both and get rid of DoT Axes) and replace the Sword passive. Any more ideas for weapon style passives?

I will copy past this post in a couple of Forum Categories as I believe that it is important. Should moderators that happen to read this want to delete a few and more it to the appropriate section, please inform the game developers of the need for a change in Dual Wield Skill line.

Silver_Strider

I never understood why twin slashes was as cheap as it was; spamming it isn't an option considering that you would want the DoT to finish before reapplying. Twin slashes needs a couple of things to make it even mildly viable
1) The snare should be a baseline effect of Twin Slashes and its morphs
2) Blood craze heal needs to happen faster; 9 seconds for a 9k heal is crap, especially when a Flame Whip can heal for roughly the same amount (if not more) in 2 seconds. If nothing else, it should be on par with Momentum/Rally.
3) The overall damage of the skill needs to be improved greatly, even if it means increasing the cost of it. Both the initial damage and DoT are pathetic as is. I would also say shorten the time it takes for the DoT to finish up its damage, while keeping the same amount of damage.
4) Rendering Slashes should become a small PBAoE, with appropriate cost to compensate.

Personally, I like Hidden Blade. However, I do feel the Major Brutality should be increased to longer than 10 seconds and should be 30 seconds to once again match Momentum's up time. That's my only gripe with the skill honestly. As for the Shrouded Daggers morph, I would say make targets deal less damage. We need more AoE Major Maim abilities.

Flurry should just be flat out changed to something else. A gap closer, a proper execute, a hard CC, something needs to be done to this skill to make it useful because as is, it is a terrible skill that locks you up and does nothing besides damage.
Blinding Flurry as a CC move fails because either the target is immune to the off-balance effect, or they move out the way, limiting the amount of chances you actually have to set them off-balance. Rapid Flurry is just more damage which, again, is easily avoidable. If they must keep the channel, then I want this skill to be a hard CC. A good stun would suit me just fine because Dual Wield lacks a hard CC ability. 2h has Uppercut, 1h+shield has shield charge and Bash, even bow has a (bad) knock back skill.

Make Blade Cloak cover all forms of damage and not just AoEs and I'd be fine with it. Quick Cloak is fine. Deadly cloak should leave a DoT on anyone hit by it, instead of just a cheap hidden blade ripoff.

Whirlwind is probably the only good skill worth anything. Steel Tornado does good damage and is the best Stamina skill in the game (IMO). Whirling Blades though needs some love. I like the stamina recovery buff but that isn't really enough to warrant its use over the increased radius and damage of Steel Tornado. Whirling Blades should grant empower on top of the stamina regen buff. People still might not use it but at least it's something.

Preyfar

DW has a lot of problems, most for which you outlined above. DW just can't compete, not for DPS, not for PVE or PVP, not for build diversity. The main reason most people take DW is for Steel Tornado (and Steel Tornado only). DW should be a viable skill line on its own without having to rely on class specific skills, but it fails in a lot of regards.

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Rending Slash - The bleed is nice, but not effective in most fights. The best benefit is the 50% Movement speed reduction. However, why would ANYONE take Rending Slashes? In every single way, shape and form Razor Caltrops is superior given it's an AOE DOT.

Caltrops (1901 damage up front, 926 per tick over 30 seconds, affects multiple targets, reduces speed)
Rending Slash (2151 damage up front, 8695 damage over 9 seconds (About 1,932 per tick)).

(Note: Weapon damages listed are based on a test build with 26K stamina and 3.1K weapon damage.)

Suggested Solution: Increase the initial damage significantly. Give Rending Slash/Blood Craze the ability to prevent the target from going into stealth due to the bleed damage. This will greatly increase PVP utility. Alternatively, give Rending Slashes an AOE to targets in front of the player within the skill's range.

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Rapid Strikes/Blinding Flurry - Rapid Strikes/Blinding Flurry needs a SERIOUS buff. This skill seems like it should be DW's main attack skill and yet does relatively low DPS. Compare it to the heavy hitters from 2H (Wrecking Blow) or Bow (Snipe) and RS/BF pales by comparison. The numbers are there, but ultimately the attack is too slow and doesn't land hits like it should.

Suggested Solution: Increase damage per tick AND reduce channel time from 1.3 seconds to 1 second. Rapid Strikes/Blinding Flurry SHOULD be just that -- fast. Instead, the attack is slow and doesn't pack a punch whatsoever.

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Steel Tornado/Whirling Blade - No changes needed.

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Blade Cloak - I can't find a use for Blade Cloak. It gives you a 20% reduced damage to AOE attacks, but AOE attacks aren't the most common thing in PVE, and for PVP, after Steel Tornado's radius nerf it's not in great abundance anymore. Not to mention the damage tick every 3 seconds is exceedingly lackluster. If you're looking for damage evasion you're better off with Medium Armor's Elude/Shuffle or the Nightblade's Mirage/Doubletake to get a 20% dodge chance. It's far, far more effective.

Suggested Solution: REMOVE the damage tick every 3 seconds and replace give Blade Cloak the ability to reflect a percentage of damage back to the attacker (they're attacking a flying swarm of blades, after all).

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Flying Blade/Shrouded Daggers - Increase Major Brutality's active time to be more comparable with Rally.

Vangy

Uhm. @GeorgeBlack ... Yes DW has its fair share of problems in PvP as most of which you have already outlined but DW for PVE is imo, faaar better then 2H. More so, if you have maelstrom daggers as a stam DK (which you are OP).

Like you already pointed out, classes that DO have insta-cast stam skills are going to pick those because well... those are class skills and they should be better then something from a common skill tree. Since you are a stam DK and my main is also a stam DK, let me point out some things that you seem to have missed out.

1) rending slashes- Bleed used to not work on shields, undead etc. With TG, the bleed affects all enemies even those with shields. + bleed bypasses all mitigation. Things like searing strike get mitigated by resistances whereas bleed (as far as i understand, bypasses mitigation). This makes it a very good contender with unstable flame. I use both unstable and rending in my PvE encounters especially for trials. The overall damage done is a sizeable percentage.

2). FLurry: you CAN do heavy and light weaving with flurry. I dont understand why you think LA weaving is not possible.. Watch @Alcast tutorial on weaving with DW. Was a very good and helpful vid.

3) Flying blade has pretty solid damage. Like you I feel that the major brut duration can be increased. But for a stam DK its a non-issue imo, especially with igneous weapons/molten weapons granting us a close to 40 second major brut/sorcery. + Its a group buff!

4) Steel nado: steel nado, unlike most other executes, starts granting bonus damage @ 50% of a targets HP. It gets stronger and stronger as the target drops below 50. I think 2h execute starts at around 25%. + steel nado is some what of a ranged + AOE execute. Makes it invaluable in trash pulls. This single ability makes stam AOE dps reign supreme.

5) The thing that most people miss out is that rending slashes and flurry both are considered DOTS. (since flurry is channelled). Therefore, they get double buffed by thamaturge and mighty. Making them obscenely strong in PVE. For stam dks things get even better cos we use unstable flame, caltrops and sometimes burning breath. Most top end stam dks run dw/BOW for pve getting their buffs from either pots or igneous weps. They use a combination of light and heavy weaves with flurry for main dps while using dots such as unstable flame, rending slashes, poison injection, rearming trap, caltrops and volley (Forgot what this is called.. its the fire arrow rain thingy).

My stam dk pulls well over 25k even in non optimised group settings with no access to combat prayer/spell power cure/shards. DW is VERY, VERY strong in PVE. It just sucks in PvP short of steel nado. If you'd like to see a DW build in action you could google Turbo's stam DK. He did some crazy sick DPS on serpent.

GeorgeBlack

Not gonna argue. Here are some facts.
PvE is easy. Any class/weapon can pve.
Dual wield has the worst skills for PvP.
1/5 DW skills is a ranged attack. What the hell....
People are sick of WB.
People are sick of Magika everywhere.
Any of these same old DW builds online works better if you replace it with 2handed.
NB dont use DW skills for pvp.
stamplar same.
A challenge a stam DK to go vMaelstorm without shield or 2handed and finish it and post a vid

Stannum

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Not gonna argue. Here are some facts.
PvE is easy. Any class/weapon can pve.
Dual wield has the worst skills for PvP.
1/5 DW skills is a ranged attack. What the hell....
People are sick of WB.
People are sick of Magika everywhere.
Any of these same old DW builds online works better if you replace it with 2handed.
NB dont use DW skills for pvp.
stamplar same.
A challenge a stam DK to go vMaelstorm without shield or 2handed and finish it and post a vid

Hmm, not worst really.
FB is great PvP skill. It hits really hard and snairs. Bow skills are cheaper but they cannot do such DPS burst. As for 2H and WB - it's not always safe to engage in close fight in any situation. As for me I like 2H\DW build more both for PvP and PvE (in PvP for FB in PvE for tornado)

Shaloran

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Not gonna argue. Here are some facts.
PvE is easy. Any class/weapon can pve.
Dual wield has the worst skills for PvP.
1/5 DW skills is a ranged attack. What the hell....
People are sick of WB.
People are sick of Magika everywhere.
Any of these same old DW builds online works better if you replace it with 2handed.
NB dont use DW skills for pvp.
stamplar same.
A challenge a stam DK to go vMaelstorm without shield or 2handed and finish it and post a vid

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Not gonna argue. Here are some facts.
PvE is easy. Any class/weapon can pve.
Dual wield has the worst skills for PvP.
1/5 DW skills is a ranged attack. What the hell....
People are sick of WB.
People are sick of Magika everywhere.
Any of these same old DW builds online works better if you replace it with 2handed.
NB dont use DW skills for pvp.
stamplar same.
A challenge a stam DK to go vMaelstorm without shield or 2handed and finish it and post a vid

You missed a fact.

While PVE is easy, you still need to perform at peak capacity for some of the content, especially when trying to make optimal time.

So yeah, while running around questing or whatever you can go derp mode of you want, but doing end game pve content is a different story entirely and it's NOT easy to perform competitively with any random stuff.

acw37162

First off momentum should be moved out of 2H skill line and placed somewhere reasonably easily available to all stamina users if the fighters guild or undaunted tree line.

Secondly, DW needs a passive stamina regen boost and the stamina regen morph of whirlwind needs to be reworked to do extra damage the more enemies you hit, stamina Zerg buster.

Throwing dagger, one of the morphs should be called boomerang and once thrown returns along the same path, with the ability to thrown multiple daggers up to three or four.

Lastly, all weapon spots that require two inventory spaces to use i.e. 2h, bow, staffs count as two pieces of gear and give 2 piece benefits