Which balancing did we like?

leepalmer95

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

Clouding swarm is useless in this patch.

This ultimates usefulness is really hit or miss depending on who you talk to though. Invisibility won't mean anything for the guy who already mastered how to use it. It's not necessarily a 'hit-button and auto-win' type of Ult, and certainty doesn't seem like it will scurrying away never to be seen with TG. It's a really smoke n' mirrors ulti and we will still see people being able to use it smartly with or without the guy being seen.

Apart from it's mean't to take 2s to even go invis, which seems like a waste of a morph, more and more people are going to go devouring i guess, the heal is pretty nice, basically you can't do for 5's while doing a high amount of aoe dmg.

Takes-No-Prisoner

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Apart from it's mean't to take 2s to even go invis, which seems like a waste of a morph, more and more people are going to go devouring i guess, the heal is pretty nice, basically you can't do for 5's while doing a high amount of aoe dmg.

Does the tooltip not state that invisibility is re-granted if it is broken? If, once TG drops, if an enemy decides to turn on Magelight the guy who comes out of stealth can choose not to activate it. Then do bats after the effects from Magelight go away after a few seconds. Devouring will still be good, but I wouldn't sleep on the utility from Swarm. It just means the guys running Swarm need to pay attention to their detection since they THEN can get hit by skills that require Line of Sight. And even if, I'm fighting a Vamp, I will still use Puncturing Sweeps since the skill does not require Line of Sight to hit them anyway. Since I honestly couldn't see myself keeping Magelight up mid-fight.

AmalgamousPrime

Doncellius wrote: »

@AmalgamousPrime I am leveling a Magica DK atm. I actually like Shifting Standard+Talons and will use Dawnbreaker of Smiting when available.

Do you think it will be worth going Vampire for the Bats ultimate when Thieves Guild releases on console?

Before IC, mist form complemented the magicka DK kit very well and bats was just a very powerful ultimate. Since then, bats hasn't been a good ultimate because it hits about as hard as any other ultimate, but over 5 seconds. Since IC, bats just doesn't pack the same punch as the other ultimates and was only worth slotting IMO for the 5 second invisibility because it gave you 5 seconds of not being hit by single target and most CCs, as well as letting you position yourself and stall for AoE. With healing being so much more potent than damage still, I don't see a reason to slot bats anymore. If they dropped its cost with these changes, upped its damage, or increased its duration significantly I would recommend it.

If you don't mind the extra damage from every player with points in fighters guild and potential insta-deaths from camo hunter bursts, go for it.

phillyboy7897 wrote: »

You make a valid point regarding clouding swarm.

I'm coming from the perspective of a tank, and the tanking passive alone by far outdoes the downsides.

But I don't want to just debate clouding swarm here, plenty of posts discussing it elsewhere.

Aside from disliking the clouding swarm nerf, what did u think they got right w/ the balancing and why?

If all we do is say what we don't like it is much less clear for them, than if they nail something and we say yes that was good more of that pls. Or of this is not true, still a combination of what we like and do not like is more beneficial than only pointing out flaws.

I understand the subtext to all of this is that the lag is still there and unfixed and agitating everyone, that is a different thread, in fact 20 of them.

I'm on console too so I haven't seen it firsthand yet, but you don't need to experience it to realize that bats being like mist form now is terrible. This isn't only a complaint about bats, just mostly the fact that vamps overall are weak in PVP which is the only place worth being one, and the ultimate was the last/only reason to be one if not a stamina nightblade or for RP purposes.

I think any balancing changes they do that does not involve adjusting damage levels back to 1.6 days is a waste of time. There was variety, every class and weapon class was viable (I'm not saying balanced) and there was a pretty equal representation of every class. Fixing penetration AND reducing damage was too much, but this is what happens when you only patch every few months. Also the fragfest gameplay made PVP more fun, there was a lot less lag and zergs couldn't just faceroll smaller parties. The current game just makes crystal frags, wrecking blow, surprise attack, proxy det, focused aim, and burst ultimates the staple because healing is so much more potent than damage. 90% of the skills in this game are useless since IC and every cookie-cutter build is just using abilities that support those 5 that I named along with an AoE.
Clever alchemist set will just makes this problem worse.

I think the big change that stands out is the BoL nerf. I think it was needed but I think they missed the mark on this, it needed an adjustment to the amount healed, not the number of players hit. Now its just not worth slotting when the Templar isn't even guaranteed their own heal.

I think they have made some good changes like capping CPs, but instead of the no-CP campaign they should alter the system to make getting the cap easier, removing them without actually removing them (like what no-CP campaign aims to do) AND providing the added customization seems like a better change than what no-CP campaign will lead to.

Major Expedition nerf. Seriously who wanted this, am I supposed to feel better about getting the right armor class monster piece that drops with the crappy well-fitted trait. Hooray, let me sprint across cyrodiil in enjoyment!

WillhelmBlack

[/quote]

Temp has a heal thats 1 button = full hp and the ability to purge dots/snares/roots with a cheap costing skill.[/quote]

That's 2 and neither are preventative.

Durham

"-Introducing a Physical Damage CP Star: This was needed. The problem now is stamina build's still do not have physical damage morph's for skill's and ultimate's (depend's class)"

Stamina is DPS is down 20% on average while magicka is up ... Stamina lacks decent ultimates .. Stamina cannot use Det. plz do not try to compare caltrops to it .... Our movement also got another nerf ..

before the patch Magicka was strong especially with sorcs... now they are the clear leaders across the boards

Takes-No-Prisoner

Durham wrote: »

Introducing a Physical Damage CP Star....
before the patch Magicka was strong especially with sorcs... now they are the clear leaders across the boards

I want to play Stamina on every class, and got the toons to do so. But Stamina at the moment don't really have the variety of tools that Magic users have access to. I agree Durham, CP star for Physical reduction is gonna hurt stamina users til the DB comes to town. And already Stamina users already suffer from limited tools in their tool box. Since honestly there are not really many Weapon abilities that are not really up to snuff with certain class abilities/morphs.

GreenSoup2HoT

Alcast wrote: »

We should not talk about the word BALANCE if there is none.

*drops mic* XD

tonemd

I think siege damage is in a good place right now.

danno8

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

That's 2 and neither are preventative.

Breath spiral and/or die.

(Credit for the term "Breath spiral" goes to someone else.)

leepalmer95

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Apart from it's mean't to take 2s to even go invis, which seems like a waste of a morph, more and more people are going to go devouring i guess, the heal is pretty nice, basically you can't do for 5's while doing a high amount of aoe dmg.

Does the tooltip not state that invisibility is re-granted if it is broken? If, once TG drops, if an enemy decides to turn on Magelight the guy who comes out of stealth can choose not to activate it. Then do bats after the effects from Magelight go away after a few seconds. Devouring will still be good, but I wouldn't sleep on the utility from Swarm. It just means the guys running Swarm need to pay attention to their detection since they THEN can get hit by skills that require Line of Sight. And even if, I'm fighting a Vamp, I will still use Puncturing Sweeps since the skill does not require Line of Sight to hit them anyway. Since I honestly couldn't see myself keeping Magelight up mid-fight.

It's bugged, there a delay, also pretty sure magelight stops the invis on it?, either way it's still bugged for 1-2s.

Takes-No-Prisoner

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It's bugged, there a delay, also pretty sure magelight stops the invis on it?, either way it's still bugged for 1-2s.

From what PC people have been saying it sounds like it does stop the invisibility portion on it when Magelight comes into range. So as far as Swarming is concerned, it'd still be fairly good to use for the 15 people that really dig vampire abilities. But folks running that FOTM type of build without any forethought into how Swarming works are going to erupt like a volcano.

But since I took off Vamp, I am looking forward to the fun things they did with Templar. BoL stuff aside, there are some really good CP synergies and good Ultimate buffs Templar got[looking at you Nova and Crescent Sweep]. I'mma be a busy body when TG comes to PS4

Emma_Overload

@leepalmer95 Rather than cripple Harness Magicka for Sorcs, I think they should just change the spell's function to something other than a shield. That would solve the stacking problem without ruining the spell for one class.

phillyboy7897

Lmfaooo this thread is going down in flames. I wonder if it will be tbagged after its dead.

Just post what u liked. Not how someone else is wrong. It is possible to do lol.

phillyboy7897

Whoever said ball grouper nerfs agree 100%

Airyus

Alcast wrote: »

We should not talk about the word BALANCE if there is none.

This. Thread closed.

phillyboy7897

Cept ur not a mod, and I can get reported for saying what I think u are. I learned that today

Minalan

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

@leepalmer95 Rather than cripple Harness Magicka for Sorcs, I think they should just change the spell's function to something other than a shield. That would solve the stacking problem without ruining the spell for one class.

You have a point, without harness magicka all of the magicka sorcs will just start wearing medium or heavy armor.

But what else other than a magic shield would be of any possible use? Damage? Spell Pen? Crit?

I think I would be fine if it had a cast time on it, without being able to cancel the timer or animation.


Obligatory 'what they got right': they moved magic damage under the apprentice tree with elemental.

phillyboy7897

So what your saying is what we should roll on the floor screaming no balance! no balance! Or maybe nothing? Yeah dude that's gonna work great.

Tackle it from both sides. They got some things right with the balancing. I may not be right about what skill but I am right about that general concept. If 300 changes are made even randomly maybe 10 will be spot on. Point those ones out that's the point of this thread, and they do exist.

Or just flame everything and disagree with everyone that's a party too I guess.

Ball group nerfs is one. Bannanna squad gone bc that or at least partially

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

For me, the changes to the Champion Point system was the only step this patch took towards balance. Still not where it needs to be but this was progress. Stamina had a significant advantage before so I am glad to see Hardy listed next to Elemental Defender. As well as Magicka-class damage being consolidated into Elemental Expert, same as Mighty's physical damage was. Those were the good things...

The controversy now is Thaumaturge. I am really on the fence here. For some abilities it is a nice boost, but at the same time it is hard to tell if this passive is favoring magicka dps too much as the majority of dots being used are spells. Some abilities that were already good are double dipping...

Another issue is there are 3 passives to mitigate magic damage, while Physical damage only requires 1, 2 (maybe).

Zenimax in the attempt to balance, really just flipped the coin. HOPEFULLY DB will remedy this, but welcome back to the magicka season...

I would be completely fine with this if Stamina builds balance by having better defense verse Magicka builds having better damage. This can not be true while Shield Stacking goes unchecked though. Still remains the biggest imbalance in the game...

If this gets fixed then the changes to the Champion Point system makes sense.

phillyboy7897

Good points man sounds like we are honing in on an issue.

Mass changes with unforeseen consequences.

CP balancing was the right idea, and mostly well executed, but maybe it should be smaller balancing patches.

That way corrections like you are pointing out could come around much quicker.

Thing we PVPers lose sight of is PvE balancing. That's a legit thing and they have more to consider than just we are thinking about.

Even so 4 mos is too slow. Now I am getting sidetracked...

Vaoh

@Emma_Eunjung You're a genius. Honestly, if done correctly it would solve the problem. Wow. Never even thought of this!

leepalmer95

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

@leepalmer95 Rather than cripple Harness Magicka for Sorcs, I think they should just change the spell's function to something other than a shield. That would solve the stacking problem without ruining the spell for one class.

Sorc can still use it, just not stack it with hardened, use it in duels or something.

Something needs to be done because i don't like attempting to get through 25k + shields then 18k+ hp in order to kill some when there sending 18k tooltip frags at me, undodgeable curses that do high dmg ^^

Emma_Overload

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

@leepalmer95 Rather than cripple Harness Magicka for Sorcs, I think they should just change the spell's function to something other than a shield. That would solve the stacking problem without ruining the spell for one class.

Sorc can still use it, just not stack it with hardened, use it in duels or something.

Something needs to be done because i don't like attempting to get through 25k + shields then 18k+ hp in order to kill some when there sending 18k tooltip frags at me, undodgeable curses that do high dmg ^^

If you can't stack it, there's no point (for Sorcs) in using it, when Hardened Ward gives almost 50% more protection. Simply removing stacking kills the utility of this spell for a whole class. That's why I'm suggesting they change it into a spell that everyone can use instead of a stackable ward.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

phillyboy7897 wrote: »

Mass changes with unforeseen consequences.

Zenimax is unfortunately PRO at this. I don't want to come down hard on them, but right now they have some serious issues with itemization and little connection to how their game is being played. Data sheets are like books. If you want to learn about something; talk to somebody that has done it instead of reading a book about it. They could of easily avoided a lot of the problems they are facing now if they communicated with players who have insight in how their ideas will be used by players. Instead they throw up their hands and say, "we didn't expect Ball groups to use Vicious Death, we were sure they would stop stacking up".

To Fix shield stacking takes a few steps in this order:

1. Rollback to shields not refreshing fully on recast. So if you have a healing ward still active, you simply can't cast another Healing Ward until the previous expires. This is what broke Harness Magicka to begin with.
2. Heal Debuffs like Defile should also effect shields, not just heals.
3. Revisit Overcharge (Softcaps). Not to the extent we had before, but caps should be placed on Regen, Stats, as well as Weapon/Spell power.

NoS_smoke

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Physical Cp star was needed - Stamina builds were hitting so much harder, SA, WB and snipes.

Siege Change - Good change in general, i shouldn't be able to simply cloak a siege away. I shouldn't be able to ignore the dmg as well.

Helm Vendor - Now i feel as if if i do pvp i can actually spend ap now.

What i wish was changed:

Wb - Needs tweeking, does a lot of dmg, has bugged range, emowers itself and cc all in one, it's too strong a skill. Remove something, the empower, the cc just something to put in more in line with everything else.

Snipe - A skill that has 54+ meter range, fair enough makes sense, it shouldn't be hitting for the same amount as a wb though, not at that range, reduce the base dmg.

Whip - Seen a lot of videos and build where people go full dmg, all gold equip, 40k magicka, nearly 4k spell dmg etc... Still hits for 3.5k crit... Needs something to boost it's dmg, whether that be a increase in dmg in general or something like major armour debuff like Sa has.

Shield Stacking - I agree that Hardened + healing ward stacking should be allowed, sorc are a class with a strong class shield so of course there going to build around that. What i don't agree with is hardned ward + harness magicka, sorc can then run around with 25k+ shields which gives magicka return... Makes it very hard and annoying for other magicka builds to kill them. Stop harness + hardened ward from stacking and then i'll be happy.

You really have trouble with WB and snipe now that you have physical resist cp??? I mean dk can reflect snipe, sorcs can stack shield and have physical resist, templar has big heals and cp resist on it, nightblade can cloak it....I mean really...if it's tough you should just invest more cp into physical resist and increase the magicka meta...I mean anyone I know that's good has way more cp into elemental and magic resist than physical...why...because they feel that physical bothers them a lot less....think about stuff before you say them bro. If you have trouble with wb spam....I mean, it might not be the game...

InBedWithMySelf

DK changes specifically:

The DK Heal from embers that was doubled, should be once again reduced by 50%, and the heal from dragon's blood should be doubled.
The change to embers that now makes it refreshable is a good change, should have always been this way.

the buff to eruption is a bit insulting, instead of giving utility to this skill they buffed the initial damage of that morph by 22%... why?...

Inhale change was excellent.