Do you trust ZOS to deliver a stable/fun environment for AvA?

tinythinker

This isn't a bash ZOS poll so please keep the comments honest (including any frustration) yet civil and on point. There are plenty of threads where people rip on Zenimax Online. Lots of "Way to screw things up!" types of posts and comments already exist. I don't want to add to that.

I'm just curious whether you think ZOS can deliver on what it promised when the game was being hyped before PC launch -- a stable, fun environment for AvA with hundreds of players on screen fighting for control of Cyrodiil. Feel free to elaborate on what you mean by "fun" and "stable" and the acceptable limits of how close an MMO can get given a realistic acknowledgement of the problems any game might face trying reach such goals.

Ghost-Shot

No, not really

Not a chance in hell, I do trust City State however.

myrrrorb14_ESO

No, not really

Need a lol option. There is no way they can achieve that with hundreds of players on the screen at once. Although I would be happy to be proved wrong.

It's still fun, when I'm not lagged or booted off. Hopefully, some of the changes they recently made as well as the planned ones will make PvP more manageable for large scale combat.

RoamingRiverElk

Yes, eventually

Maybe in two years... They also could just give us a 1.5 server eventually, right? Right???... One can hope...

They gave us the no CP campaign, that one is much nicer than the CP campaigns. Less lag. Though I suppose that is also because of the players who choose to play there, in part. The gameplay in the no CP campaign feels much more like 1.5, and how the game was meant to be played... Resource management matters, and getting CCd while you do have stamina to break free isn't always a death sentence. A lot of the times, you can also sort of observe what is hitting you. Amazing, isn't it.

Some things are still missing from the no CP campaign though... Dynamic ultimate, stamina regen while blocking, no stacking up costs for dodging and streaking...

Will it ever be hundreds of players on screen? No, unless they rewrite the game from the start.

Zheg

No, not really

So many have left because they didn't think ZOS was capable of it, and so many remaining players plan to leave as soon as another game becomes viable because they've lost faith as well. It's been 2.5 years, and if we're being honest, I find the root/snare/left-click siege hero/pure burst meta we have right now to be the least fun, whether I'm solo or in a full raid. Most pvpers agree that previous patches were far superior, so I'm not really sure how that signifies progression or ZOS demonstrating their capability to deliver.

tinythinker

A kind of follow-up: If you voted "No" would you like to see ZOS try to take AvA in a different direction that the original vision? If so, what direction do you think would be realistic and still fun?

Xeven

No, not really

tinythinker wrote: »

A kind of follow-up: If you voted "No" would you like to see ZOS try to take AvA in a different direction that the original vision? If so, what direction do you think would be realistic and still fun?

Arenas. With a match making system akin to Starcraft on Battlenet. Ladders. Seasons. Leagues. Tournaments. 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, FFA. This game could be epic.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Hmm well the idea is a good one but as most can see ZOS executed it poorly and the past few updates haven't helped at all from HA and tanks being over nerfed to the game becoming nothing more than a DPS contest of who can stack the most damage from BoP to crafting being nerfed and so on.

Yusuf

I hope so but every time i get into the only campaign where people actually play on my hopes get crushed.

Zaldan

No, not really

PVP performance has been a joke for over a year when campaign pop hits 50%, time for ZO$ to admit that's the limit of their "Megaservers" and re-balance accordingly.

Merlight

No, not really

tinythinker wrote: »

A kind of follow-up: If you voted "No" would you like to see ZOS try to take AvA in a different direction that the original vision?

They already have. Ever since 1.6 they've been diverging from what I thought they were striving for before that.

At this point it's not about ability to deliver -- we'll never know, because they're not even trying -- the current business model precludes fun and fair PvP.

Mojmir

No, not really

When you have a gaming community that knows your game better than you and you don't listen to them.
When you implement things to only cater to a small group.
When you break more than you fix.
No,i don't trust them.

zyk

No, not really

To me, it's obvious ZOS has given up on Cyrodiil. I believe the decision was made to put Cyrodiil on life support in 2014.

It is fair to say that ZOS does less than the bare minimum necessary to maintain Cyrodiil because of the number, severity and the length of time it takes to fix bugs in Cyrodiil.

I think ZOS should be embarrassed by the state of Cyrodiil. It owes us all an apology.

stealthyevil

No, not really

Sadly, its been too long. I'm loosing hope and I don't think I see myself staying in this game much longer

KenaPKK

No, not really

Such a shame that ZoS has been so irresponsible, too. An Elder Scrolls mmo is a godlike game in concept. Such a great opportunity wasted...

HoloYoitsu

No, not really

Fear not, PvP will be stable when everyone has moved on to CU. There, problem solved.

Vaoh

No, not really

I remember watching trailers with HUGE amounts of players on screen. I had heard of exploits (DK-Bats-Invulnerability, etc) and such but knowing that hundreds of players could be on screen with effects going off AND little to no lag.... Got me so excited to buy on PS4!


I had also heard that 1.5 was as close to reaching balance as ESO has ever known, but was scrapped for 1.6.

Best way for ZOS to fix issues immediately is to revert the client/server side anti-bot changes in the "lighting patch" when in PvP, along with getting rid of the fancy lighting. Considering performance died when these measures were implemented I bet it will be revived when they're removed. Because of these reasons I'm struggling to see PvP improvement which is being treated unbelievably poorly atm.

PvE looks phenomenal, while PvP is a mess. This is the LITERAL OPPOSITE of the game at launch. lolz

ToRelax

No, not really

I don't think they've given up or anything, I rather think their current team, for whatever reason, just doesn't manage to balance anything. There are too many decisions that just don't make sense, from whatever perspective you are looking at it.

Soulac

No, not really

That's like trusting a blind man with neither legs nor arms in his ability to solve a thousand parts puzzle.

Edit: beat that Iyas

Iyas

No, not really

Soulac wrote: »

That's like trusting a blind man in his ability to solve a thousand parts puzzle.

You know, it's possible because of the shape of the pieces not really that difficult

Soulac

No, not really

Iyas wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

That's like trusting a blind man in his ability to solve a thousand parts puzzle.

You know, it's possible because of the shape of the pieces not really that difficult

Psssst you know what I mean

kevlarto_ESO

Yes, eventually

I really doubt they ever will, the game has changed direction and seems to be all over the place, but I do think they are trying and there has been small improvements, I am going to see what happens before I cry out Game Over Man.

Shelgon

ITT "this game is bad, the developers are bad, this game is going nowhere. *continues to play said game*"

The cycle continues.

RebornV3x

Yes, eventually

I try and stay positive but we'll see

tinythinker

Shelgon wrote: »

ITT "this game is bad, the developers are bad, this game is going nowhere. *continues to play said game*"

The cycle continues.

So, we have a thread where most people are giving their thoughts about the problems with PvP and possible direction of the game without the usual non-stop bashing of the game and devs, but you want to reduce it to that? No thanks. I appreciate how constructive people have been so far.

OdinForge

No, not really

It's pretty simple.

ESO is no longer (maybe it never was, and probably never will be) a game for serious (or even decent) PvP. But ZOS will never flat out say this game is strictly for casuals, who just want to buy mounts and skins and mess around for a few hours with Battlemaster corner builds in Cyrodiil.

ZOS will never communicate back to you about anything, they don't care about what needs to be fixed. There is a reason it seems like they're trying to one up the bugs from previous patches. There is a reason we got IC the way it dropped, why we have 50% battle spirit mitigation. Why the guilds are leaving in packs, have been leaving since before 1.6 even came out.

It's been obvious in the past, but it's dead clear right now. This is a casual game, enjoy it.

tinythinker

OdinForge wrote: »

It's pretty simple.

ESO is no longer (maybe it never was, and probably never will be) a game for serious (or even decent) PvP. But ZOS will never flat out say this game is strictly for casuals, who just want to buy mounts and skins and mess around for a few hours with Battlemaster corner builds in Cyrodiil.

ZOS will never communicate back to you about anything, they don't care about what needs to be fixed. There is a reason it seems like they're trying to one up the bugs from previous patches. There is a reason we got IC the way it dropped, why we have 50% battle spirit mitigation.

It's been obvious in the past, but it's dead clear right now.

I can appreciate that perspective. I don't agree, but I can see why people think that. I think it's a matter of trying to be too many things at once to everyone and ending up forcing everyone into a few rigid slots. They have a fast combat system that relies heavily on knowing a strategy/build inside and out, which in turn is dependent upon having the right gear. That does go toward serious PvP. But, they do want to make the game accessible and not something where you have to spend hours theorcrafting and then grinding for the right gear and then having to spend weeks practicing n Cyrodiil to be something other than easy AP.

So there are two counter-acting concerns here. If they had a separate system for AvA with a rock-paper-scissors approach to skills/classes, those concerns could be balanced. But they are using the same gear/skill/classes for PvE and PvP. The "ZOS doesn't care" hypothesis is certainly possible, but another more credible explanation is that mixing serious/casual PvP as well as PvE gear & skills with PvP gear and skills makes for a nightmare of balancing issues. Yet I don't see them totally separating PvE and PvP.

My vote is still what I've been suggesting for a while, which is to diversify the roles in AvA by having 3-5 mutually exclusive AvA skill lines as well as special gear sets to support those roles. People who are good at/want to do frontline encounters and small group play would still have the skills/gear for that. Those who want to do various types of support or specialized forms of attack and defense could do that. In other words, make it more of a team effort where people who suck at 1v1 and 1vX face-to-face combat don't have to join a blob for safety and success, but can still be a needed/valued member of a small to medium team pursuing tactical goals in different locations. Add and modify AvA objectives to make such diversity valuable. People who want to play as they are now can, and those who shine currently can still shine, while letting others have fun too without having to nerf-buff-nerf-buff-nerf-buff trying to make every player fit the same one or two molds. (Interested? Ask me how! )

OdinForge

No, not really

tinythinker wrote: »

So there are two counter-acting concerns here. If they had a separate system for AvA with a rock-paper-scissors approach to skills/classes, those concerns could be balanced. But they are using the same gear/skill/classes for PvE and PvP. The "ZOS doesn't care" hypothesis is certainly possible, but another more credible explanation is that mixing serious/casual PvP as well as PvE gear & skills with PvP gear and skills makes for a nightmare of balancing issues. Yet I don't see them totally separating PvE and PvP.

The small PvE content currently in ESO is only mildly challenging at best, the entire game (not just PvP) is designed around the casual in mind. The story mode has no substance here either.

Take this video of open world difficulty for example -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOSzX09QX-g

This game is currently designed around the casual in every capacity, not even isolated to just PvP but also extends into PvE.

You cannot balance serious and casuals in PvP. When you get into a ranked match for Halo the game doesn't hand hold casuals. When you get into a game like Dark Souls, the game isn't holding your hand. Which is my point if you want serious and good PvP, you won't find it in ESO. If they wanted to help the hardcore PvPer, they should have launched the game with or put the effort into making arenas and battlegrounds sooner. But now we're knee deep in bugs and balance issues, not to mention battlespirit.

You're right when you say this, but it also proves my point that they're gearing this game to the casual.

But, they do want to make the game accessible and not something where you have to spend hours theorcrafting and then grinding for the right gear and then having to spend weeks practicing n Cyrodiil to be something other than easy AP.

The game wasn't exactly complex or challenging before, even with all the knowledge checks. The best type of progression in any pvp activity is personal skill advancement, making it easier for people who don't want to put the time in is bad for PvP.

zyk

No, not really

I agree that the target audience for this game is casual. More specifically, the very large mainstream audience that discovered PC-style RPGs with Skyrim. I think this audience is even more casual than we're used to seeing in MMOs. They are ultra-casual.

This has been true since the original VR nerf. I still recall these players were very upset because they were unable to kill mud crabs.

I don't mean to sound dismissive of these players. I have nothing against them personally. However, it has been frustrating to see ESO move away from its potential as a deep high fantasy MMO to an incredibly easy MMO-Lite. (or Online RPG as ZOS now likes to call ESO.)

This is why I say Cyrodiil is on life support. I don't believe the problems in Cyrodiil are so great ZOS can't figure them out. The issue is likely that Cyrodiil is extremely low priority and its issues do not receive proper attention. This is why it is so easy for ZOS staff to dismiss us completely. We simply don't matter in the big picture.

@Shelgon -- Why stay if we are so unhappy about the state and direction of the game? I often joke that PVP players must be masochists, but the truth is that breaking up with an MMO can be hard to do. Most of the conflicted players probably have social connections they wish to maintain. That is the case for me. Not just my friends, but casual acquaintances or even just AD I only know from fighting alongside for the past year and a half (I started PVP late). I'll even miss some of the people I don't like.

tinythinker

OdinForge wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

So there are two counter-acting concerns here. If they had a separate system for AvA with a rock-paper-scissors approach to skills/classes, those concerns could be balanced. But they are using the same gear/skill/classes for PvE and PvP. The "ZOS doesn't care" hypothesis is certainly possible, but another more credible explanation is that mixing serious/casual PvP as well as PvE gear & skills with PvP gear and skills makes for a nightmare of balancing issues. Yet I don't see them totally separating PvE and PvP.

The small PvE content currently in ESO is only mildly challenging at best, the entire game (not just PvP) is designed around the casual in mind. The story mode has no substance here either.

Take this video of open world difficulty for example -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOSzX09QX-g

This game is currently designed around the casual in every capacity, not even isolated to just PvP but also extends into PvE.

You cannot balance serious and casuals in PvP. When you get into a ranked match for Halo the game doesn't hand hold casuals. When you get into a game like Dark Souls, the game isn't holding your hand. Which is my point if you want serious and good PvP, you won't find it in ESO.

You're right when you say this, but it also proves my point that they're gearing this game to the casual.

But, they do want to make the game accessible and not something where you have to spend hours theorcrafting and then grinding for the right gear and then having to spend weeks practicing n Cyrodiil to be something other than easy AP.

The game wasn't exactly complex or challenging before, even with all the knowledge checks. The best type of progression in any pvp game is personal skill advancement, making it easier for people who don't want to put the time in is bad for PvP.

My point though is that there are different tendencies, talents, and capacities in people, different interests. I offer myself as an example. I've been in this game since Beta. I've got 5 VR16s, and could easily have 6-9 by now if I had so wished, and that's on NA. I'll soon have a level 50 on EU. I have a couple of Majors, a Lt, even a Sgt and some other decently progressed non-coms. If I hadn't been so put off by PvP this time last year and started spending less time in Cyro, I would probably have a couple of characters at AR28 or higher by now. So, a total noob I'm not. But ever since 1.6, I've enjoyed AvA less and less after reaching a peak of enthusiasm for it and thinking it would be how I spent most of my time in ESO.

The thing is, I didn't even want to do AvA at first as this was the first MMORPG I'd been in for more than a week and I'd never done PvP except for a couple rounds of capture the flag; but I tried it out early on in this game and after a while I got hooked on it. I was spending a ton of time in Cyro between 1.4 and the end of 1.5. And yet, I suck, and I mean SUCK, at doing 1v1 and 1vX. I always will. Working in small and medium groups I can do well, or in pitched open field battles, but if you can focus on me that's it, I'm toast. In addition to small-to-medium groups and pitched battles I love doing support and I really really love sieging, especially using anti-personnel equipment. It's like using the Force to hit targets even when they are stealthed or something is blocking my line out sight. Pow, nailed ya!

So, I was a PvP casual who got hooked on AvA because it was so fun and the bar wasn't too high to begin and the way people fought back then I could find lots of room for what I liked. The changing meta, though, meant fewer scattered/pitched open field battles, fewer small-to-medium groups, and siege became a joke. AvA became less fun for me, so it went from being 70-80% of my game play for a few months to being 15-25% and then less.

What I am suggesting is that based on what I've seen and heard, and what this poll thread continues to confirm, AvA needs something more than just zerg busters and the whole nerf-buff-nerf-buff cycle. If those PvE players who wander into Cyrodiil as PvP casuals can get hooked like I did, they will want to stick around. To work for the right gear and AR. To join a PvP guild. Not all will get hooked, but if enough do they will stop being PvP casuals. The level of game-play will rise.

But, if it's all "be really good at burst AoE, burst heal, or both", then they will come to blob and zerg now and again, but they won't give a damn about strategy, tactics, or improving their PvP skill. And if they are creamed by blob-busters while blobbing is their only fun option, they will quit. That's why I keep pushing the types of changes I'm suggesting, the kind I mentioned in my last comment. I know that if there are options for people of different talents and interests woven into the gear and skill lines and objectives of AvA it can make a real difference.

Will it mean ESO will have elite-style PvP? Nope. But does it mean ESO could have something more fun, diverse, and at a higher skill level than where it has sunk to? Absolutely.

Sallington

No, not really

2 years of decreasing trust