Max resources = max damage ??

Forestd16b14_ESO

Well it's no secret at this point that the higher your DPS is the easy the game is. It has clearly been seen in PvE and PvP alike from players always ranting about how "new content is to easy" to of course gankers in PvP able to melt some one even in full heavy armor with block up and with a 50% damage reduction.

Zos knows this and if I recall talked or threw the idea out there how to balance....... let's be honest here nerf DPS and the idea they threw out their was to stop max resources from giving more damage.

Now you DPS players maybe screaming right now NO NO NO but here is a few reson on both sides why this idea is good or bad.

Good idea: Would finally allow players to actually play the support role of a tank in PVP and actually take damage (but not deal it). Would also make PvE content alot more challenging cause I liek to see how "easy" that content is when you can't deal crazy stupid amounts of damage to the NPCs. Finally would allow players to hopefully spread out there attribute points and CP to spend them more wisely cause as most know most players only pool like 2 or 3 points into health and everything else into magicka or stamina and maybe since damage wont scale off them any more would maybe give a boost to health. Would make proxy det zergs alot weaker.

Bad Idea: Would make PvE content more harder including VDSA VMSA and trials. Would make PvP harder cause gankers have alot less power. Would take away attribute points form stamina or magicka meaning you be casting less spells and or skills.

Choice is yours and maybe ZOS will consider the idea if enough players agree or just throw it away in the waste bin.

mr1sho

No... Damage should continue to scale off max resources.

No

Hiero_Glyph

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

Shouldn't health increase armor and spell resistance if stamina and magicka increase damage?

Sunah

No... Damage should continue to scale off max resources.

I say no only because it makes sense to have it scale off recourses since we don't have stats like strength and agility. What they NEED to fix is damage bosses and enemies do so that tanks and healers are NEEDED. There should be no reason to just out dps our way through any content, while yes I do enjoy it sometimes but its really taking away the fun out of the game. Its so annoying hearing people say "WELL WHY DO YOU HEAL?!?! HEALERS ARE NOT NEEDED ANYMORE HERP DERRPTY DERP"

dday3six

No... Damage should continue to scale off max resources.

No, you can't be immortal in heavy armor. True it needs work, but you need to get over this fantasy of heavy armor being god mode.

ZakuBeta

Maybe. Please explain.

The damage bonus from each should be reduced from what it is now, and health should increase resistance to damage a small amount as well. The exact percentages are needed to be determined.

KochDerDamonen

No... Damage should continue to scale off max resources.

Prefer to see more mechanics that punish applying dps at the wrong time or require non-damage related work.

Destyran

No. This woukd ruin templars

Forestd16b14_ESO

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

dday3six wrote: »

No, you can't be immortal in heavy armor. True it needs work, but you need to get over this fantasy of heavy armor being god mode.

Who said anything about HA and god mode ? This is about making so the game isn't just a DPS contest and if anything is god mode as you are putting it is DPS. Heavy armor is meant to take damage simple as that nothing about a god mode nothing about unkillable nothing about anything but to take damage but it is players like you who do make a big deal about it and want it to stay nearly useless and keep DPS play styles way above healers and tanks just cause your kind want easy kills.

So sorry if this idea of making both tanks and healers much more valid offends you but it needs to be discussed so ZOS can take the right actions instead of what they been doing of blindly nerfing everything cause just of a few rage post and QQ.

Turelus

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

Personally I think damage should be damage and resources should be resources.

By taking the damage element out of equation more players would be inclined to spread attributes for health or other benefits. Right now most people don't stack Stam/Mag because they need resources but rather because of the bonus damage.

crislevin

Maybe. Please explain.

It should scale off max resource, but the curve should not be linear.

Lysette

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

I am for all what makes hybrid builds viable - simply because I like diversity and not this min/max stuff, which is reducing viable builds to just 8 per race, of which just a few are actually chosen by players. Any good and more interesting way to scale it, would create dozens more of viable and playable builds - but it takes a couple of clever rules to achieve that.

SmalltalkJava

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Shouldn't health increase armor and spell resistance if stamina and magicka increase damage?

I agree health should increase armor and resistance

Refuse2GrowUp

Maybe. Please explain.

Leave things as they are. The devs will continue to increase the difficulty of content on a curve.

The problem is not ONLY high DPS. The problem is also how the old dungeons were scaled so that they are not truly V16. This is why new content is much more difficult than old content.

Yes, there are plenty of us who can breeze thru the new content. But there is a far larger number of players who cannot.

charley222

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

yea i`m full heavy armor all max 50% reduction and is useless
this game is only about max damage and the one is got more resources, heath is not a big deal
if you are stamina get 2k regen and 4k damage and roll like a money lol
and sorc same but magicka

heavy armor is still garbage i`m going back too med and evasion the game is to limited

charley222

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Shouldn't health increase armor and spell resistance if stamina and magicka increase damage?

this make sense

Nifty2g

No... Damage should continue to scale off max resources.

way too unbalanced

EdmundTowers

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

Would see a lot more race variety when it comes to stam and mag builds, since the racial passives only provide resources and not damage.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

Nifty2g wrote: »

way too unbalanced

And DPS having no hard cap and players able to achieve 4K+ damage and deal stupidly high DPS with no effort is ?

LiquidSchwartz

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

I 1 shot lv 20 and below in black water as a lv 35 nb with 32.4k Stam
I think it should be reduced but not removed

xellink

Maybe. Please explain.

1) Damage shields should scale with health
2) Increase power of undaunted armor
3) Introduce hybrid skills, perhaps in the next addon?

I can't believe majority voted for the status quo!

GrumpyDuckling

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Shouldn't health increase armor and spell resistance if stamina and magicka increase damage?

One of the smartest suggestions I've read on this forum. Thumbs up for you!

Nifty2g

No... Damage should continue to scale off max resources.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Nifty2g wrote: »

way too unbalanced

And DPS having no hard cap and players able to achieve 4K+ damage and deal stupidly high DPS with no effort is ?

Well there is a hardcap, currently it's 501CP unti you stop gaining random magicka/stamina from CP

But no, if you remove this it makes a lot of the playstyles and classes extremely unbalanced and underperformed. Don't you know how some skills work and how others work with the coefficients? They are not all based on your max stats, some benefit from your spell/weapon damage rather than your magicka/stamina. Removing the max resource would destroy pretty much half the skills leaving some of the classes incredibly powerful compared to others.

That's why it's way too unbalanced, good idea but it won't work.

To quote Asayre to give a little bit of an understanding

Asayre wrote: »

Most magicka ability tooltips can be estimated with

where a and b are coefficients. b is typically around 10.5 and a varies for each skill. The range of a is typically between 0.02 to 0.2. It is quite challenging to get extremely accurate values for a even with plane fitting over a large data range. A technically more accurate estimate can be obtained by using

where a', b' and c' are coefficients.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

Nifty2g wrote: »

show previous quotes

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

way too unbalanced

And DPS having no hard cap and players able to achieve 4K+ damage and deal stupidly high DPS with no effort is ?

Well there is a hardcap, currently it's 501CP unti you stop gaining random magicka/stamina from CP

But no, if you remove this it makes a lot of the playstyles and classes extremely unbalanced and underperformed. Don't you know how some skills work and how others work with the coefficients? They are not all based on your max stats, some benefit from your spell/weapon damage rather than your magicka/stamina. Removing the max resource would destroy pretty much half the skills leaving some of the classes incredibly powerful compared to others.

That's why it's way too unbalanced, good idea but it won't work.

To quote Asayre to give a little bit of an understanding

show previous quotes

Asayre wrote: »

Most magicka ability tooltips can be estimated with

where a and b are coefficients. b is typically around 10.5 and a varies for each skill. The range of a is typically between 0.02 to 0.2. It is quite challenging to get extremely accurate values for a even with plane fitting over a large data range. A technically more accurate estimate can be obtained by using

where a', b' and c' are coefficients.

Then ZOS needs to remove it and then balance the classes instead of what they're doing now. Cause now incase you haven't notice DPS runs this game their is no point of tanks or healers cause DPS is just far far FAR to powerful. DPS is supposed to be powerful yes but basically be god mode no and that is what DPS in ESO is.

I am sorry if the idea may make some builds unbalanced but if ZOS does this then they can start balancing the classes and hopefully new builds can emerge cause if players don't discuss this now ZOS is gonna do to DPS what they did to tanks and completely over nerf them. DPS needs to change and it can either by done by the players or done by ZOS and simply getting rid of the whole max resources could avoid a very painful rage enduing and long nerfing process.

dday3six

No... Damage should continue to scale off max resources.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

dday3six wrote: »

No, you can't be immortal in heavy armor. True it needs work, but you need to get over this fantasy of heavy armor being god mode.

Who said anything about HA and god mode ? This is about making so the game isn't just a DPS contest and if anything is god mode as you are putting it is DPS. Heavy armor is meant to take damage simple as that nothing about a god mode nothing about unkillable nothing about anything but to take damage but it is players like you who do make a big deal about it and want it to stay nearly useless and keep DPS play styles way above healers and tanks just cause your kind want easy kills.

So sorry if this idea of making both tanks and healers much more valid offends you but it needs to be discussed so ZOS can take the right actions instead of what they been doing of blindly nerfing everything cause just of a few rage post and QQ.

In your first paragraph of this thread you complain about Heavy Armor in PVP.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2769353/#Comment_2769353 - In this thread, created by yourself, in comment #282, you go over ridiculous and even redundant buffs you'd like to see to heavy armor. They are mostly aimed at letting you "tank" in PVP, and by tank I mean be unkillable with little effort. It's something of a reoccurring theme of yours in fact. And it seems like you want to punish everyone else (PVE players) at this point, and don't understand what sort of ripple effect this new terrible idea would have, or simply don't care.

Damage output isn't the issue you're making it out to be. It doesn't invalidate or override the need for tanks and/or healers. After a certain progression point (gear, skill, and cp) dungeons can be done light a healer or tank. However that is not the most effective way to run them. DPS put out the most damage in controlled combat situations with aggro control from the tank, and resource replenish from the healer. When you take those roles out dps alone cannot fill them, and having players who can fulfil their role and deal damage is always going to the most effective way to do things.

Currently in PVE a tank or healer can just focus on thier role with being too concerned with dps. All lowering the damage output of the dps roles will do is make sure that tanks and healers have to be able to dps as well as their role in order to might checks. That is not a player friendly system as it demands extra from tanks and healers, rather than rewarding them for providing it.

aLi3nZ

How much dps increase does increasing max stat actually make? I never really noticed much of a difference. I prefer to run drinks for better regen. How much better would 37k Magika be rather than 31k. Already increased the important stat(spell damage) to 4.1k

nilldax

Lack of "Other" or "Can i hazz u'r sruffzz?" discourages a bit, but... here we go.
All of skills should scale from max resource AND max damage in its right modifiers. By this i mean, taking Hardened Ward as example, should take 0,75 of actual Magicka modifier and 0,25 modifier scaled out of Spell Damage. But, this only example.
Look, I am running with 40k of max ST, 2k ST regen and 2,8k WD (3,2k buff), while HP sits near 19k - against some PvE bosses its instadeath if i make a mistake. And for to show difference: 4k WD builds are dealing with Snipe 17k (tooltip) while my own shows 13k, both buffed. Do you see "price" of highier primary stat? Magicka builds (sorc especialy) are working in similar way.
About heavy armor in view of PvE and PvP - hope you have noticed that every single one character can use self-healing in some way. Actualy, even with sracked 32k of armor you have at least 3 slots on skillbar free - and some regen from passives/CPs/drinks. Not even counting racial inbalances (Redguard shines here). Increasing armor values will end up in hard DDs with armor hanging near flat 50% reduction - do you really wish for that? While so-called tanks will still be in same place.

Brrrofski

No... Damage should continue to scale off max resources.

aLi3nZ wrote: »

How much dps increase does increasing max stat actually make? I never really noticed much of a difference. I prefer to run drinks for better regen. How much better would 37k Magika be rather than 31k. Already increased the important stat(spell damage) to 4.1k

Every 100 magica equates to 10 spell damage. Same with stam and weapon damage.

Just look at one of your skills with drink on, then eat some food and compare the damage.

KanedaSyndrome

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

I have always found it to be illogical that damage scaled off max ressources. Would actually give us more flexibility if they didn't. They should only scale off spell and weapon damage, nothing else. Let ressources be a matter of ressource management and nothing more.

KanedaSyndrome

Yes... Damage should no longer scale off max resources.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Shouldn't health increase armor and spell resistance if stamina and magicka increase damage?

Agreed.

hrothbern

Maybe. Please explain.

I really like that a sneaky burst type of build can do insane damage.
But it has to go at the expense of something !!!
I prefer that the price paid is sustain.

That lessened sustain can be realised for example by:

1. Self Heals do not increase in exactly the same way as DPS (for example: DPS scales more from Spell/Weapon Damage than the from the stat pool. Self heal scales more from the stat pool than from the Spell/Weapon Damage)
2. Very high DPS/HPS costs more resource than lower DPS/HPS from the same ability.

With something like this builds can be made for high burst or for more sustained DPS/HPS on a gliding scale of choices.

Both methods allow for a relatively small, almost balancing, tweak, that can be adjusted, in the course of time, to find the sweet spot.

Just removing stats as a base for higher DPS/HPS is too abrupt and will have too big (negative) effects on the game.