Cross faction trials: should it count for the leaderboards?

Lithium Flower

Yes, they should count

I'm sorry but the opposing argument isn't coming across very well right now. Maybe someone needs to explain it much more clearly.

Top guilds will have access to a three times as large recruitment pool. Top players will have more choice in whom they raid with. Every top guild will compete with each other to field the top 12 dream team. They might have to incentivize players to remain exclusive to them and less able players who are in guilds only because there isn't a better selection in the home faction will have to work harder to keep their positions. This will increase competition at the top.

And in any case, cross faction raiding has been going on for a long time. Nearly every long term player has more than one character and many, many have max rank characters across alliances just for this very reason - to be able to play with more guilds.

Faction restriction in PvE was always an arbitrary barrier which is now being removed.

If top guilds are really worried about exclusivity, they can enforce 'no-other guild' restrictions on players for leaderboard activities.

For the vast majority of people though, they're just glad to be able to run trials with enough people to complete the content and the chance to maybe get a weekly doodad.

laksikus

Yes, they should count

@Nifty2g
@DisgracefulMind
You two seem to forget that every Player can make multiple faction chars. Nobody can stop you to make another char, and with the coming vet removal you dont even have to grind past lvl 50, its a piece of cake

So basically you can recreate your Main char on all 3 alliances that alone makes your Argument of every guild picking the tops obsolete, as its possible even now.

SienneYviete

Yes, they should count

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

SienneYviete wrote: »

Bit of a double edged sword this one. On one hand it's great now that I can use my previously unused opposing factions toons to complete content I would have never been able to with the present group finder setup. On the other hand I can see where this may present an issue for top raiding guilds however I think most of the dedicated top raiding guilds are pretty much already set with their core members and have been for quite some time and will hopefully stay loyal to their core rather than bringing in ringers from other factions just for scores.

Time will tell whether this change is a good one, i'm hoping it is and tbh for me and a lot of other players it will be but I can fully understand why raiding guilds would be cautious of this change.

Cross-faction trial grouping is GREAT. Not cross-faction leaderboard competition.

At the end of the day when you think about the competition side of things most competitive online multiplayer games have zero team restrictions at all. For instance in FPS or MOBA games it's fairly common to poach other players from teams to make yours better, this actually helps the competition as more teams enter and become stronger the bar raises in terms of competitiveness for all involved. How this will correlate to eso is yet to be seen but hopefully it's a good change.

BEZDNA

Yes, they should count

Leader boards is a joke anyway, nobody compete for the score anyway apart from 0,00001% of player base. And ZoS keep resetting leaderboard after every bug they fix and change scoring system all the time. They need to rework whole leaderbord system in general, so ppl would have a motivation to compet.

Ra'Shtar

Yes, they should count

BEZDNA wrote: »

Leader boards is a joke anyway, nobody compete for the score anyway apart from 0,00001% of player base. And ZoS keep resetting leaderboard after every bug they fix and change scoring system all the time. They need to rework whole leaderbord system in general, so ppl would have a motivation to compet.

Maybe if they came out with a new trial every 6 months and they are ultra hard they could compete for world first, but lol for that they would have to be bugless trials and that is so not gonna happen with the crappy code this game has.

Nifty2g

No, they shouldn't be included

laksikus wrote: »

@Nifty2g
@DisgracefulMind
You two seem to forget that every Player can make multiple faction chars. Nobody can stop you to make another char, and with the coming vet removal you dont even have to grind past lvl 50, its a piece of cake

So basically you can recreate your Main char on all 3 alliances that alone makes your Argument of every guild picking the tops obsolete, as its possible even now.

And you seem to forget that the current players who are dominating the leaderboards are the ones opposing this argument.
So now imagine lets say people start moving around going for that top guild who is #1, then players will start to leave and stop bothering - that much is true because it will destroy internal friendships and people stop playing with each other.

It's possible now, but I guess you seem to not understand how end game raiding works and the amount of time you need to put in a character to be competitive.

And like I said, just wait for us to all get together and mess up the leaderboard weeklies with all that fresh new loot =D I got 8 VR16's ready to go and be carried

laksikus

Yes, they should count

Nifty2g wrote: »

laksikus wrote: »

@Nifty2g
@DisgracefulMind
You two seem to forget that every Player can make multiple faction chars. Nobody can stop you to make another char, and with the coming vet removal you dont even have to grind past lvl 50, its a piece of cake

So basically you can recreate your Main char on all 3 alliances that alone makes your Argument of every guild picking the tops obsolete, as its possible even now.

And you seem to forget that the current players who are dominating the leaderboards are the ones opposing this argument.
So now imagine lets say people start moving around going for that top guild who is #1, then players will start to leave and stop bothering - that much is true because it will destroy internal friendships and people stop playing with each other.

It's possible now, but I guess you seem to not understand how end game raiding works and the amount of time you need to put in a character to be competitive.

And like I said, just wait for us to all get together and mess up the leaderboard weeklies with all that fresh new loot =D I got 8 VR16's ready to go and be carried

yout true problem isnt the leaderboards its guild loyalty: but thats not a new problem, tell me that even NOW inside the 3 alliances, nobody leaves guilds for a better trade guild or a more competive guild, just to be on top. Its exactly the same. So nothing new there.

Im 100% sure that there were faction changes based for leaderboards in the past already, just to get a better "guild group", yes mutlifaction guilds already allows that, in PVE and PVP.

All it will do is make it easier, most tops put alot of time in the game to get those skills, grinding to lvl 50 is basically nothing, thats what 1-2 days? ask around how many people you know have cross faction chars, i bet its alot

and no, you dont need to put more time into a char, all you have to do is grind him to max level, you have all cp, and can copy all skills from your main char

Nifty2g

No, they shouldn't be included

laksikus wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

laksikus wrote: »

@Nifty2g
@DisgracefulMind
You two seem to forget that every Player can make multiple faction chars. Nobody can stop you to make another char, and with the coming vet removal you dont even have to grind past lvl 50, its a piece of cake

So basically you can recreate your Main char on all 3 alliances that alone makes your Argument of every guild picking the tops obsolete, as its possible even now.

And you seem to forget that the current players who are dominating the leaderboards are the ones opposing this argument.
So now imagine lets say people start moving around going for that top guild who is #1, then players will start to leave and stop bothering - that much is true because it will destroy internal friendships and people stop playing with each other.

It's possible now, but I guess you seem to not understand how end game raiding works and the amount of time you need to put in a character to be competitive.

And like I said, just wait for us to all get together and mess up the leaderboard weeklies with all that fresh new loot =D I got 8 VR16's ready to go and be carried

and no, you dont need to put more time into a char, all you have to do is grind him to max level, you have all cp, and can copy all skills from your main char

I guess you play all your characters with level 1 undaunted that 7,000+ Magicka/Stamina is incredibly large to your DPS

laksikus

Yes, they should count

Nifty2g wrote: »

laksikus wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

laksikus wrote: »

@Nifty2g
@DisgracefulMind
You two seem to forget that every Player can make multiple faction chars. Nobody can stop you to make another char, and with the coming vet removal you dont even have to grind past lvl 50, its a piece of cake

So basically you can recreate your Main char on all 3 alliances that alone makes your Argument of every guild picking the tops obsolete, as its possible even now.

And you seem to forget that the current players who are dominating the leaderboards are the ones opposing this argument.
So now imagine lets say people start moving around going for that top guild who is #1, then players will start to leave and stop bothering - that much is true because it will destroy internal friendships and people stop playing with each other.

It's possible now, but I guess you seem to not understand how end game raiding works and the amount of time you need to put in a character to be competitive.

And like I said, just wait for us to all get together and mess up the leaderboard weeklies with all that fresh new loot =D I got 8 VR16's ready to go and be carried

and no, you dont need to put more time into a char, all you have to do is grind him to max level, you have all cp, and can copy all skills from your main char

I guess you play all your characters with level 1 undaunted that 7,000+ Magicka/Stamina is incredibly large to your DPS

and i bet you never do pledges? *sarcasm*
leveling untaunted is so easy its a joke, and the next thing you will mention is alliance skills, same ease with that once TG drops.

but thats a problem on its own, and dont think i ever saw a top players wanting to make untaunded harder so nobody can grind to it. now THAT would be a solution, without that untaunted is done in a few days pledges. achievements + quests. Ans as top player im sure you can rush most of them in 20min, so no probs there at all,

Maddux

Yes, they should count

@EgoRush
I have to disagree about what you say because you should know it better.
People with higher Goals are always looking for the Best or the Better to archive their Goals. Players looking for better Guilds and Guilds are looking for better Players. They do that in every competitive Game, not just in ESO. Fortunately we can 5 Guilds at the same Time in ESO and didnt have to hop from one Guild to the next better Guild like in other Games.

You and your Guys are not in the Top Spot just because you have the best Players or more good Players as other Guilds. You are on Top because you are playing well together, worked out the right Tactics and everyone knows what to do and exactly when to do. Are the Players in Hodor Core just your best 12 Man (or Ladies) or is it so that this 12 are playing better together as every other Combination of your Members?
I bet that, if you bring the best 12 Members from Hodor, BI and other Guilds together after the Update, you dont break your old Records until you play together for a While. At that Level, using Skills a bit to early or late because you dont exactly where the Tank is going or pulling the Mobs and other Stuff costs more Time and DPS as the best Player from another Faction can bring you extra.

So why dont allow Players from other Factions to join your small Group and let him be a Part of the big Picture? We still are able to quick Grind a Toon in another Faction if we are not happy with the Guilds in our old Faction and wanna do the Content on a competitive Level.

I dont think that what i say now is your Reason to argue against Cross Faction Groups on Leaderboards but maybe it is the Reason for someone other.
The Pool of Top % Players is small and without Cross Faction Leaderboards, it is easier for the Top Groups to defend themself against Competitors in the own Faction. Try remaining on the Top Spot and you can be sure that competitive Players are always coming first to you because People are almost everytime are going the easy Way and joining a smaller Group and help them to grow and rise isnt the easy Way. Especially if you wil ever make it with a small Pool of potencial Members.
Cross Faction Leaderboards are a Thread for Groups they think like this because the Pool of Members for your Competitors is bigger and you have to care better about your Members. People are eating *** to be a Part of good Groups and there is just one very good Group in their Faction. Maybe they are not willing to eat it again and again if they can choose between more Groups with Cross Faction Leaderboards.

This is my Opinion and dosnt represent what "You Dont Know Me" is thinking about Cross Faction Leaderboards.

PriorityBalle

EgoRush wrote: »

It's potentially going to destroy raid groups now as they aren't restricted to Guild X in Alliance Y. People will reapply to join the best.

Meaning everyone will apply to Hodor ? *sigh*

Tannakaobi

No, they shouldn't be included

So they demolished TES Lore for the factions to be put in place and then make said faction irrelevant, good job Zos!

I don't think anything should be cross factioned, including trading guilds. What is the point of even having a faction now? They are irrelevant for everything.

Nice to see everyone having such pride in their factions, oh but wait.... this dude here has a .007 higher dps than our mage, kick him! Welcome friend... that murdered many of my comrades yesterday!

Seriously! What happened? Is ESO some big design idea to kill TES? Maybe start a new fantasy idea or even sell it to Disney?

Kippesnikke

No, they shouldn't be included

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2HFpNaGrJc

Thavie

Yes, they should count

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Basically you are afraid people who are better than you will prove it?

That is not what they're saying at all. The concern is that this is going to kill our guilds.

Are your guilds so weak? Is challenge betvween allinces only thing that keep your guild together? Really?..

Turelus

I don't get why this is a problem.

Basically the argument seems to be "We are worried that our better guild members might leave, make their own guild/group with other good members from other factions then beat our scores".

From what I know of the EU guild didn't most of the top ones also level characters in other factions back when there were campaign buffs so they could get better scores?

If your members are loyal to your guild they're loyal to your guild, if they're only with you for the scores then they would have jumped ship the first chance they got any way.

Holy-Dope

No, they shouldn't be included

Well, those in favor, good luck with pug runs (we know what happens in 4 man content, Molag Bal save us in the 12 man version) and for those not in favor, i appreciate your loyalty and wish you new heights in the game with your fellow friends and colleagues.

And for ZOS- please start an official discussion about something this game breaking change before implementing it. It's your game but we are the one paying.

DisgracefulMind

No, they shouldn't be included

Thavie wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Basically you are afraid people who are better than you will prove it?

That is not what they're saying at all. The concern is that this is going to kill our guilds.

Are your guilds so weak? Is challenge betvween allinces only thing that keep your guild together? Really?..

Mine isn't at all, but the raiding community is already crumbling from the lack of content and unwanted changes, so what's to say this isn't the final nail?

EgoRush

No, they shouldn't be included

Maddux wrote: »

@EgoRush
I have to disagree about what you say because you should know it better.
People with higher Goals are always looking for the Best or the Better to archive their Goals. Players looking for better Guilds and Guilds are looking for better Players. They do that in every competitive Game, not just in ESO. Fortunately we can 5 Guilds at the same Time in ESO and didnt have to hop from one Guild to the next better Guild like in other Games.

You and your Guys are not in the Top Spot just because you have the best Players or more good Players as other Guilds. You are on Top because you are playing well together, worked out the right Tactics and everyone knows what to do and exactly when to do. Are the Players in Hodor Core just your best 12 Man (or Ladies) or is it so that this 12 are playing better together as every other Combination of your Members?
I bet that, if you bring the best 12 Members from Hodor, BI and other Guilds together after the Update, you dont break your old Records until you play together for a While. At that Level, using Skills a bit to early or late because you dont exactly where the Tank is going or pulling the Mobs and other Stuff costs more Time and DPS as the best Player from another Faction can bring you extra.

So why dont allow Players from other Factions to join your small Group and let him be a Part of the big Picture? We still are able to quick Grind a Toon in another Faction if we are not happy with the Guilds in our old Faction and wanna do the Content on a competitive Level.

I dont think that what i say now is your Reason to argue against Cross Faction Groups on Leaderboards but maybe it is the Reason for someone other.
The Pool of Top % Players is small and without Cross Faction Leaderboards, it is easier for the Top Groups to defend themself against Competitors in the own Faction. Try remaining on the Top Spot and you can be sure that competitive Players are always coming first to you because People are almost everytime are going the easy Way and joining a smaller Group and help them to grow and rise isnt the easy Way. Especially if you wil ever make it with a small Pool of potencial Members.
Cross Faction Leaderboards are a Thread for Groups they think like this because the Pool of Members for your Competitors is bigger and you have to care better about your Members. People are eating *** to be a Part of good Groups and there is just one very good Group in their Faction. Maybe they are not willing to eat it again and again if they can choose between more Groups with Cross Faction Leaderboards.

This is my Opinion and dosnt represent what "You Dont Know Me" is thinking about Cross Faction Leaderboards.

I have to admit after posting the poll and reading through Nifty's thread on this I'm on the fence. I can see advantages and disadvantages to both. But my guild is in the top spot because we have team synergy and some of the best players in the game. Team synergy isn't everything, top DPS isn't everything. You need both along with discipline and adaptability. The people in the Hodor core were selected for being the best in our guild (and it's not just top DPS that makes someone the best...).

Also, I must defend my team here. I don't think a player from any other guild would improve us even after team work is perfected. My team is awesome and I've loved raiding with them. We don't have a weak link I can easily replace. Cross faction isn't going to change a thing for us and I will look within my guild for replacements if people quit before I'll look within other guilds.

Overall, I don't see cross-faction changing much for Hodor. If it makes the majority in the game happy then I'm on board

Maddux

Yes, they should count

@EgoRush
This wasnt an Attack on you or Hodor. I know you just a little bit but what i know about you didnt let me think that you are a complete Arse and thats what i said is what you and Hodor are thinking about the Changes.
But after 13 Years of partly competitive Onlinegaming and in my advanced Age, i know what some People think and how they act in general. What i said are the Reasons for some People to be for ore against the Changes because they just want an Advantage.

In my Eyes, the Changes will help our Guild more as they can hurt us, even if we decide to never recruit Players from other Factions. A bigger Pool means more real Competitors and we have to push harder and play better as an Unity, not just to get closer to Hodor but also to dont let old and new Groups get past us.

Hamrb

So, I'm the GM of a PvE guild. We are na pc, and we are AD and EP. What's the problem with us all being able to trial together? Why would this suddenly make all other trials groups stop?

If you guys want to talk about why trials are unpopular, well think about the v12-14 items that have been rewarded. In the opinion of a guy who asked many a player to run trials, this is the biggest reason people say no.

Since the IC the only good reason to trial, was for competition and leaderboards.

Not trying to stir the pot, but if I didn't know any better, I'd say you're all afraid of some competition :-P

DisgracefulMind

No, they shouldn't be included

Hamrb wrote: »

So, I'm the GM of a PvE guild. We are na pc, and we are AD and EP. What's the problem with us all being able to trial together? Why would this suddenly make all other trials groups stop?

If you guys want to talk about why trials are unpopular, well think about the v12-14 items that have been rewarded. In the opinion of a guy who asked many a player to run trials, this is the biggest reason people say no.

Since the IC the only good reason to trial, was for competition and leaderboards.

Not trying to stir the pot, but if I didn't know any better, I'd say you're all afraid of some competition :-P

No problem letting cross-faction trial together, I personally just feel that it's going to hurt the competitive aspect of endgame pve to allow leaderboard placement with those groupsing, but let us see how it turns out. I'm sure the guilds who run together now are going to continue to do so, we all have a strong sense of guild loyalty, overall.

But yes, trials are unpopular because there is no loot that comes from them worth anything. Let's bring on Maw then and see how it all pans out.

I just feel it's going to bring more harm than good. No point furthering my discussion on the matter as I've said how I've felt already.

Cheers, all.

Paulington

Yes, they should count

I was initially opposed but now I'm not all that bothered either way and truly feel indifferent. The best will stay the best, we in Hodor will probably remain EP-only and I would imagine most of the top raid guilds will stay faction-specific.

I am slightly worried by the erosion of factions, outside of PvP they are getting ever more meaningless and whilst that's not necessarily a bad thing it does make me lose a little of the faction patriotism or competition I felt with other guilds.

But ultimately we have to look at the bigger picture. Raiding is not for us in the #1 guilds, it's for everyone in the entire game and the entire game will benefit from this change as it will make Trials far more accessible to everyone as the game moves forward which is desperately needed right now. For this reason I am in favour of cross-faction Trials because on the whole it is a huge QoL improvement for the game and will make a lot of people happy.

Cross-faction Trials is less about what the 1% want and more about making sure the 99% have a way to enjoy and experience the game and there is no problem with that. If cross-faction Trials exist, then so should cross-faction leaderboards. .

Acharnor

Yes, they should count

I cant imagine why it would not count. Most are still going to be completed within guild, probably just different compositions of groups i.e. factions within the guild.

EgoRush

No, they shouldn't be included

Maddux wrote: »

@EgoRush
This wasnt an Attack on you or Hodor. I know you just a little bit but what i know about you didnt let me think that you are a complete Arse and thats what i said is what you and Hodor are thinking about the Changes.
But after 13 Years of partly competitive Onlinegaming and in my advanced Age, i know what some People think and how they act in general. What i said are the Reasons for some People to be for ore against the Changes because they just want an Advantage.

In my Eyes, the Changes will help our Guild more as they can hurt us, even if we decide to never recruit Players from other Factions. A bigger Pool means more real Competitors and we have to push harder and play better as an Unity, not just to get closer to Hodor but also to dont let old and new Groups get past us.

I know, don't worry I'm just a proud father when it comes to the guild these days. I'm actually swaying more towards cross faction being fine for leaderboards now. It doesn't change what is already happening - people grind new chars and defect all the time. This will simply make it easier and mean my AD NB isn't completely worthless for being AD - it's just worthless because it's level 10 and I cba to grind :P

elium85

@Nifty2g @EgoRush

It seems to me this all comes down to relationships. If there is concern that guilds will break up, trying to snipe better players, and immediately cut lackluster ones, then the issue is not the system ZOS puts in place but the leadership, relationships, and structure of the guilds in question. Games like this are built on friendships, teamwork, and working together to attain a goal; let's not forget the human side of the equation.

Also, it's worth pointing out that ZOS said in a previous ESO Live that they were planning on fixing Leaderboards for TG so for each piece of content, the top 100 groups not top 100 players were represented. While the top guilds will still be able to clog some spots, it's unlikely, they can get more then 20-30 of those spots in a given week.

Karacule_Fairystar

Yes, they should count

I think we should not worry about the possible cons(insert elitism and such) of CFT (Leaderboards) but instead think of possible ways to avoid such cons since we're the community that creates these loopholes.

But I also think the essence of having a faction (AD, DC, EP) guilds now in PVE now with CFT (leaderboards) enabled.
Only reason for that faction guilds exist then is? PVP.



P.S
never experienced trials

EgoRush

No, they shouldn't be included

elium85 wrote: »

@Nifty2g @EgoRush

It seems to me this all comes down to relationships. If there is concern that guilds will break up, trying to snipe better players, and immediately cut lackluster ones, then the issue is not the system ZOS puts in place but the leadership, relationships, and structure of the guilds in question. Games like this are built on friendships, teamwork, and working together to attain a goal; let's not forget the human side of the equation.

Also, it's worth pointing out that ZOS said in a previous ESO Live that they were planning on fixing Leaderboards for TG so for each piece of content, the top 100 groups not top 100 players were represented. While the top guilds will still be able to clog some spots, it's unlikely, they can get more then 20-30 of those spots in a given week.

I agree with you. This is why I'm not overly worried about the change. I love my team and my guild, and at the end of the day we're all here to play the game how we enjoy it. If that means jumping ship to another guild or wanting to join mine, then I won't fault someone for doing what they want as long as they are enjoying themselves and not ruining the experience of other people.

jzholloway

Yes, they should count

How bout just add a "Cross-Faction" leader board if it is such a big deal? We have faction boards in PvP, so it shouldn't be "too difficult (then again...). Also, what of people who have characters in other alliances who can now play with those characters with their guild mates, and guilds with people in more then one alliance who can now play together. What this does is make PvE guilds cross alliance capable, which isn't a bad thing.

Alliance matters first and foremost, if not only, in PvP - once you get to Silver and Gold you are technically playing in other alliances anyways. Will it be an adjustment? Sure, but if guilds are really worried about their times and scores because of cross alliance scores counting, then something else is the issue. To end, if there is real loyalty, then there will not be an issue anyways, sounds like the real issue is that there is a fear that there isn't any real guild loyalty at all.

Efaritay

No, they shouldn't be included

Kippesnikke wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2HFpNaGrJc

@Kippesnikke My Hero!

On the other hand..

What is the point in having 3 'apposing' factions if you can play together!?

I know ZoS.. Just make a new faction called Tamriel's Rainbow Parade and let everyone do ALL content together. Cyrodiil could turn into an RP fish island with hidden pots of gold.

Not only PvP is competitive.

TotterTates

Anyone need a tank?

Also, I have no strong urge to form an opinion on this.

I made a statement at one of our meetings months ago when we first discussed this with ZoS (at the time, I was strongly opposed to cross-faction trials, nevermind leaderboards).

Over time, my stance has gravitated toward neutrality. I've started running dungeons with my arch-nemesis...es? As it turns out, they're all a bunch of pretty cool cats.