Things you want to know about PvP post-patch (regarding AP and reward mail drops)

Crown

Here is what we know about the new patch from experience and discussions with the ZOS employees. I've added numbers to my points so that it's easier to reference in replies (just note what number point you're discussing). I can then update the next post with debates / arguments / etc.

1. On PTS the new set items (see link for screen shots of them in the first testing phase - note that there have been some changes since) drop every reward mail.
2. When they go live, the set item drop frequency will decrease to the same it is now in reward mails.
3. You will still get a LOT of crap (deconstruct or sell) reward mails.
4. Sets like Sentry and Arch-Mage will no longer drop from reward mails.
5. We HOPE that the traits in reward mail gear will be primarily PvP-relevant (thus Impenetrable or Divines) and no longer well-fitted or sturdy (sturdy being the absolute worst trait for PvP as it's completely irrelevant). We acknowledge that some min/max damage builds want Infused on the majors (head/chest/legs) though those are few and far between. Please see this spread sheet for information about how Impenetrable works, and if you still want a different trait then please tell me why - I'm serious, if there's a PvP scenario where you wouldn't want Impenetrable, I'd love to learn about it.
6. There are a few builds that may want a 3-set of Arch-Mage with Divines for PvE or Impenetrable for PvP, though for the most part very few builds should be using the old drop sets considering the stats and value in the new sets.
7. The new sets are already being theory-crafted and for the most part are FAR superior in mixes and matches to current sets.
8. The new sets come in ALL slots including jewellery.
9. You will be able to have two 5-sets active due to there being jewellery and weapons for ALL new sets.
10. You will be able to spend 100k gold or 200k AP for a PvP set item and a monster (undaunted) set item.
9. The items at the vendor per #8 will change every so often. Some people believe it will change every day, some believe every week. It may be multiple times per week. We don't know.
11. On PTS, all of the items sold by the PvP vendor come with the Infused trait. We have repeatedly objected that PvP items should come with a PvP trait (namely Impenetrable), though have not gotten a response from ZOS on that matter.
12. It is expected that the GOOD item set drops in reward mails (such as Vicious Death jewellery with the Arcane trait) will sell for a LOT of gold in the first few weeks.
13. Groups that are at most 6 players will make double the AP as they used to make. Larger groups will make less. If you want details of how AP works in the new (and current) patch, look at this link.
14. Due to these changes, it is very likely that you'll see most experienced players cap their groups at 12. Most won't want more than 6, though will grow at times if required. @ZOS_BrianWheeler stated in one of the guild meetings about a month ago that they want the number of combatants required to defeat an opposing group to be roughly similar. There should not be a situation where two people are able to kill 20.

Crown

Saving this entry for quoted responses...

NerfPlease

great! i will post soon my theoricrafting about chance of PURPLE jewerly

because i opened more than 10k mails on the PTS for it
i can add myself that jewerly always come with stable traits on it


Vicious Death rings all arcane
Marksman rings all robust
Fury rings all healthy
Leki's rings all robust
Fasalla's Guile rings all healthy
Transmutation rings all arcane

NerfPlease

i can guess the price of purple rings(VD - most popular) will be always high and near few millions of gold, i bet near 5!
because of very very small chance

the question is
can new pvp vendor(Adhazabi Aba-daro) sell jewerly parts of pvp-sets? or only armor?

Crown

We have seen him sell jewellery, and always purple.

vortexman11

Thanks for the info Crown! Especially #13, I've been meaning to check at what size a group would have to be to start earning less AP/H than they do now.

My big question is, will we be seeing a chance at receiving gold jewelry for end of campaign rewards?

NerfPlease

Crown wrote: »

We have seen him sell jewellery, and always purple.

got it
so if he will sel them too often, the price on the market will be not so high as i expected

GRxKnight

NerfPlease wrote: »

i can guess the price of purple rings(VD - most popular) will be always high and near few millions of gold, i bet near 5!
because of very very small chance

the question is
can new pvp vendor(Adhazabi Aba-daro) sell jewerly parts of pvp-sets? or only armor?

They won't be that much off the bat...the number of people who mainly pvp that have that kind of cash can probably be counted on one hand

Ishammael

Crown, thanks for all this info. Very helpful.

NerfPlease

OMG!!!

this will cost alot i guess
REward for the campaign

Taresgos

but it will be green jewelery in rewards for the worthy?

Satiar

TLDR: Everyone's gonna be grinding hard to get VD...

Joy_Division

Crown wrote: »

14. Due to these changes, it is very likely that you'll see most experienced players cap their groups at 12. Most won't want more than 6, though will grow at times if required. @ZOS_BrianWheeler stated in one of the guild meetings about a month ago that they want the number of combatants required to defeat an opposing group to be roughly similar. There should not be a situation where two people are able to kill 20.

Why would I cap my group at 6 or 12 if the developers are designing the game such that my group was intended to only defeat 6 or 12?

Satiar

Joy_Division wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

14. Due to these changes, it is very likely that you'll see most experienced players cap their groups at 12. Most won't want more than 6, though will grow at times if required. @ZOS_BrianWheeler stated in one of the guild meetings about a month ago that they want the number of combatants required to defeat an opposing group to be roughly similar. There should not be a situation where two people are able to kill 20.

Why would I cap my group at 6 or 12 if the developers are designing the game such that my group was intended to only defeat 6 or 12?

If AP farming is your goal, it makes sense. People who want to push the map will likely keep doing what they're doing now.

NerfPlease

Taresgos wrote: »

but it will be green jewelery in rewards for the worthy?

blue and purple, taresgos, blue and purple

RinaldoGandolphi

Crown wrote: »

14. Due to these changes, it is very likely that you'll see most experienced players cap their groups at 12. Most won't want more than 6, though will grow at times if required. @ZOS_BrianWheeler stated in one of the guild meetings about a month ago that they want the number of combatants required to defeat an opposing group to be roughly similar. There should not be a situation where two people are able to kill 20.

Hence herin lies the problem...and why nothing will ever change for the better in Cyrodiil.

Human history and the history of warfare is littered with outnumbered forces destroying 10 times their numbers.

• They Byzantines defeating the Vikings while being vastly outnumberd in the siege of Constantinople in 860 AD
• 300 Spartans holding the Thermoplye pass against "Thousands" of Persians.
• The Roman's defeating Boudica being outnumbered easily 20-1
• Washington marching his men out of Valley Forge after a burtal winter in rags and re-taking Philaadephia from the British
• Audi Murphy defeating an entire German Battalion single handed
• US Special Forces holding off over a thousand with only 19 men (See the Movile Black Hawk Down)

This is just a small list...for God's sake the history of warfare(Waht ESO PVP iS) is chalked FULL of outnumbered forces winning on sheer force will, heart and determination...ZOS is outright butchering and stamping on the power of the human spirit and the ability to overcome the odds in this game...

Im sorry but if 2 people catch your group of 20 by surprise they should outright be able to kill you...it was like this in April 2014....you were never safe.....those is just nonsense.

I leave you with:

"Crom! I have never prayed to you before;I have no tongue for it! No one! not even you will remember why we fought or why we died! All that matters is 2 stood against many! Thats whats important! Valor Pleases you Crom! - Conan the Barbarian

Stated moments before he and his warrior friend(2 people) defeated an entire battalion of the Snakes Kings men at the Battle of the Stones

However....according to ESO....outnumbered forces should have no chance in this game whatsoever, the undisputable indominable force of the human spirit and will should always be crushed by superior numbers....Xylena was right...ZOS intentionally rigs this game to screw over outnumbered forces.....you either run in some "predetermined" group size or not play PVP...i choose not to play PVP very simply for me.....

I will look fondly back on the days i could roam alone or with 2-3 and take groups of 20 by suprise and win....back then i didn't have dealer(ZOS) intentionally stacking the deck against me...these groups already have the advantage of more people, more damage output, more healing, but they also need armor sets and AOE cap to give them even more of an advantage with game mechanics...bleh....

This isn't directed at you @Crown, this is just my general frustration with the game direction, they do nothing to change the fundamental player behavior in this game that makes it a lag fest unenjoyable zerg filled game....they can have these large zergs and still have stuff for smaller scale players to play....making large zergs impossible to kill by anything but a larger zerg is just insane.

Back in 2014 anyone who stood on a porch with oil died...i watched 40-50 man zerg balls die...fast...today you can just stand in it...its just ridiclious...thise game does nothing in PVP to punish people who stand in Red...in PVE you stand in Red in a trial...you die....you stand in Red in Cyrodiil who cares....its relaly sad they have made it down to this.....the siege changes mean nothing as long as Purge functions the way it does, even with a 6 cap..it will be another 6 months of the same nonsense i want no part of......I want PVP where keep attacks and defenses are both viable...i want PVP where if im dumb enough to get hit a Ballista or stand in oil i'll most likely die like it was in 2014....not this point and click nonsense we have now...

No offense but its my and many others feelings on this...its no wonder so many have quit....why should they stick around for this? In the end they are giving us a game no one is going to want to play. The frustration with PVP is going to be clearly evident within a week of TG launch...mark my words, im just glad i have resigned myself not to deal with it...i'll just do my PVE stuff thats been on the back burner for far too long and ignore Cyrodiil alltogether.

ZOS has removed the human element of luck, determination, will, and the indomitable human spirit to succeed from Cyrodiil....I have no interest in playing a game that the cards and intentionally stacked against me....stacked against me worse then a casino....no thanks....

Satiar

Winning outnumbered is a constant in this game, no matter what ZoS says. Organization and skill will always matter. It's just, they're trying to not make it matter *as much* which sucks.

Dreyloch

11...

Personally, I think it's ok to have infused for head, legs, and chest. Or at least the chance for it to drop. Most content in game can be done with your pvp gear on. (except maybe Vicious Death, which truly is PvP only). I simply prefer not having to carry around 3-4 or more sets just to be ready for any content.

Impen. or divines for the rest. Depending on class etc. If there is no longer well-fit or sturdy coming from those reward bags, then I will be a happy panda.I will also add that having all the junk rewards inbetween is not setting well with me. ZoS already upped the amount of AP needed to get a reward bag in the first place. Back In the day we used to get 10-20 on a slow night. That would make the chances for this new PvP gear much less painful. ZoS won't make it happen because I've played this game long enough to know. Even with the smaller group AP gains, it will still take tons of AP farming to get any kind of set =/

Dreyloch

Satiar wrote: »

TLDR: Everyone's gonna be grinding hard to get VD...

ROFL I see what you did there.../snicker

Crown

I did some quick math, and if the probabilities of item drops remain consistent from current to post-patch, the odds of getting exactly the item that you want require that you farm up 850,000 (yes, 850k) AP. I'm sure some people will get everything they want in the first day or two, but for others the RNG gremlins will make it take months..

I'll put it all (with sample data) into a nice Google Sheet sometime soon and post it. I hope my quick math has an error.. That's a lot of AP farming..

Minno

Thank you @Crown for this write-up!

Xeven

Crown wrote: »

I did some quick math, and if the probabilities of item drops remain consistent from current to post-patch, the odds of getting exactly the item that you want require that you farm up 850,000 (yes, 850k) AP. I'm sure some people will get everything they want in the first day or two, but for others the RNG gremlins will make it take months..

I'll put it all (with sample data) into a nice Google Sheet sometime soon and post it. I hope my quick math has an error.. That's a lot of AP farming..

Dude the top 10 of each faction make half that or more in a 7 day campaign. Thats with the current solo/small group AP gains.

I read somewhere, It might have even been here, that the drop rates on PTS are unnaturally high.

EDIT:
It was here. It looks like youve accounted for that. If you're right, getting your gear should be a cake walk. (At least for the top 10s)

PrinceFabious

Everyone will be running VD! Wow!

MountainHound

VD seems bugged as well. In a 1v1 how does it proc in battle recap BEFORE the fight is over...

Satiar

MountainHound wrote: »

VD seems bugged as well. In a 1v1 how does it proc in battle recap BEFORE the fight is over...

I am unsure. It procs on death, this is known, but ALSO shows on your death recap.

My instinct is that the recap is bugged as opposed to anything else, unless the trigger point is 1 HP instead of death.

Dyride

Inb4 "GTFO me pug before you die" rage from every one.

Ixtyr

Satiar wrote: »

MountainHound wrote: »

VD seems bugged as well. In a 1v1 how does it proc in battle recap BEFORE the fight is over...

I am unsure. It procs on death, this is known, but ALSO shows on your death recap.

My instinct is that the recap is bugged as opposed to anything else, unless the trigger point is 1 HP instead of death.

The 1 HP thing might explain it. I do recall Mountain being shocked that he was suddenly killed by it in a 1v1 last night on the PTS, though, so hopefully ZOS is looking into that. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Satiar

Ixtyr wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

MountainHound wrote: »

VD seems bugged as well. In a 1v1 how does it proc in battle recap BEFORE the fight is over...

I am unsure. It procs on death, this is known, but ALSO shows on your death recap.

My instinct is that the recap is bugged as opposed to anything else, unless the trigger point is 1 HP instead of death.

The 1 HP thing might explain it. I do recall Mountain being shocked that he was suddenly killed by it in a 1v1 last night on the PTS, though, so hopefully ZOS is looking into that. @ZOS_GinaBruno

If you want a comparison, perhaps test with sets that have similar effects like the Yokudan, etc. my instinct is that all ZoS' proc on death sets share the same mechanic.

NerfPlease

ENJOY MY RESEARCH ABOUT DROP CHANCE

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/250026/research-rarest-item-in-next-dlc-new-record-of-dropchance

Zheg

Just to play devils advocate, until shields can be crit, shield stackers like sorcs (or idiots like this zheg guy's trollplar) have little need for impen. In those scenarios, infused and divines can indeed be far better.

I can also see arguments be made for DKs to only go half or so on impen if they're built well enough to rely on magma shell. For the vast majority of cases not mentioned though, yes, impen ftw.

As for group size, few care about AP, it's an afterthought to kills and fights. We will run our group sizes and strategies up to 24 depending on the meta and what works - AP has zero bearing on that. As steve said, we'll be farming for as long as it takes to get outfitted in VD because it's now the new go-to cookie cutter, which I'm sure will be healthy for pvp when everyone else does the same.

Ishammael

Zheg wrote: »

I can also see arguments be made for DKs to only go half or so on impen if they're built well enough to rely on magma shell. For the vast majority of cases not mentioned though, yes, impen ftw.

Don't give away my seekrits.